Wetsounds speakers,what amp?

I am interested in getting a pair of pro 80's with the 485 . would a kicker kx850.4 do the trick. or what other options for amps is there i need 175 watts rms to each speaker.

Memphis MCA5004.
www.memphiscaraudio.com

Zapco 360.4

Charles installed the 500.4 for my threesome and seems to have plenty of power.

this topic has been covered ad naseum in a couple different forums

you might want to go back and look at the threads and get with a reliable shop and check with the manufacture to configure this one (it is harder than it looks depending on the setup.

the amps that looks like it would work are mentioned in them (the zapco 1000/4 would do it... i honestly think the 360.4 would be not enough)

That Kicker would be on the bottom half of my list based on some speaker return data that I have heard from some manufacturers.

Alpine PDX 4150 (ICE power, ultra efficient class D full range) enjoy your music longer and give your power system a break.

Come on Mikeski, you know only a Zapco can work for this.

Mikeski the alpine is interesting...what do you think of a Zed Audio Deuce? Have read Stephen Mantz built and designed a bunch of amps and his new line is Zapco quality or better.

(Message edited by johnsvt on February 25, 2007)

I run the 360.4 but im only running a pair of pro80s and its plenty for that setup.

(Message edited by stevev210 on February 25, 2007)

The wet sounds speakers are very efficient.
You can get away with running small amounts of power and they will still sound good.

zed is really nice gear but you need a 3 channel amp...

the zapco 4 channel(1000/4):
-bridgeable down to 3 channels
-full range mixed mono switch
-symbilink volume control for all channels.

methinks the zapco wins...

So from previous threads we know that the Caddy doesn't know how to wire a "threesome", so I don't know why he still insists on posting his misconceptions here on WW, like "you need a 3 channel amp", when there are probably 20 threesome's running around wired off 4 channel amps.

Almost any 4 channel amp will do the trick, even a Clarion 480. Obviously you can benefit from more power if you can afford it, but as Chas stated the WetSounds are very efficient so you don't NEED a ton of power to get sound clearly to the rider.

Tim20, just send a note directly out to WetSounds and get a recommendation from the factory. You will get much more reliable information than anything posted here (myself included).

From my understanding of the "threesome setup" is that the center channel ( the 485) can take left and right inputs. Now this is what I was told. There is no pic of the 485 on its website that shows the speaker connection ( its all side and front shots)
BUT, there is only one horn. This means that the high frequencies are mono. Anything above that internal crossover frequency point gets summed.

Can anyone prove this is wrong? I tried to ask this in another post and nobody responded. So I looked at wetsounds site, and read all of the specs and info on there. There is no clarification on left and right inputs..
Personally, I think this kinda sucks as most mixes today dont collapse favorably to mono. But then again I'm more critical of audio fidelity then most.

This would be a great misconception to clear up! Anyone know for sure?

Sorry I didn't see he was doing the 3some thing...I was kind of hijacking because I am looking at 2 pair of 80's for myself. Also couldnt you run 2 channels and bridge the center or would that be to much for a 2 channel.

(Message edited by johnsvt on February 26, 2007)

Angry Mike,

I did answer your question on the other post. But I think that post is gone. The PRO 485 is a mono 4 ohm speaker. It does NOT take left and right signals.

Running a 3-Some can be done many ways. The easiest way is to use a solid 4 ch amp in 3 ch mode. 2 of the channels in sum mono to the 485 and the other 2 to the PRO 80.s This is the easiest way to do and how most people wire up their 3-Some. You can also use 2 2ch amps or as ewing mentioned a mixed mono out of a 2 ch but I do not like that method. In a boat application, you have a lot of issues to deal with like current and heat. So runnning a solid 4 ch is the easiest route.

There are many amplifiers out there that work well. I personally run Arc Audio. We have had lots of people run the Zapco 1000.4 with great success. The memphis is a great amp for that application as well. And like Mikeski said, the new Alpine pdx ICE power amps. And also the new Eclipse ICE pwer amps are good choices. I also like the new Cadence ZRS amps.

Hope this helps clear it up. Tim e mail me at twhite@wetsounds.com

I will be happy to help you get the right amp for you set up and budget.

Tim
Wet Sounds

mikeski - easy..boy....easy....down......your suggestion of wiring the threesome into a 8 ohm load was wwwwwwaaaaaayyyy off for 98% of the amps on the market (all i did was call you out on it).

wiring the threesome can be done... all depends how you want to do it...all mono OR stereo and mono... having all the speakers getting a mixed mono signal will have much better sound dispersion..

if you dont mind the pair of 85's in stereo- then go ahead and pick up any 4 channel that can be set up for 3 and it will work...

keep in mind you will have a really "fubared sound disperstion pattern" with everything being bunched up in the middle of the wake..since the 85's will be in stereo and the center 485 in mono...

as mentioned above, a lot of amps will work...however, if you are looking for thw widest sound disperstion pattern then ALL the speakers should recieve a mixed mono signal (i seriously doubt anyone would disagree with the above... if you do - i suggest you pick up the acoustical engineers book and give it a read.

i like the zapco gear for the above mentioned...lots of clean power, flexability, built in line drivers, mixed mono switch, and symbilink volume control (if you can name another amp that fits so well for this application with the above mentioned... list it)

Caddy,
While I cant disagree about the sound dispersion of sending mono material out, one thing that fails to consider is how a mix collapses to mono.
Many mixes lose a lot of information when summed to mono, so what would be the point of great sound dispersion if the music sounds like ass..
I agreed with your points above, and it was actually mikeski's post that prompted me to respond, but I'm sure theres a way of wide sound dispersion without having to collapse everything.
Either way, the threesome seems fubar-ed to me.
Either its a mono setup.... poop..
or its a mono center that messes up the overall sound ( anything center and what collapses favorably will be louder)...... poop
This is exactly why when my audio guy suggested the 485 as a middle speaker I immediately responded "no!". I opted to 4 total speakers because I'd rather have the music the way its supposed to be. ( mono went out in the '60s!)

angrymike, i totally agree with you... 4 speakers wired mono would be better an easier than 3..

the stereo vs mono is pretty easy once you hear the difference.really look at the setup - the listening apex is reversed.in order to get a true stereo image at 80' the speakers would have to be incredibly far apart vs. the 2'-3' on a boat tower...not to mentioned you pick up at 3 db gain due to loss of cancellation from the speakers interfering with each other because thay are so close when in stereo (think about it-are your home speaker that close ? and is are you listening at 80' ? that is why there is no such thing as stereo at 80'.... there is music in the middle of the wake, and non out to the sides (mono has a much wider dispersion)

with that being said, when you go to a concert - ie live band(unless it is orchestra or pure accoustical) it will be in a mono signal...

btw,, i am off the wagon audiophile with classe cam 350 mono's amps, arc ls-25mk2 tube pre, audio aero prima tube dac, cec belt driver cd transport, and a whole mess of cables that cost more than my boat stereo in a dedicated listening room..

Mike how much of your audiophile tec do you think crosses over to boat stereo's ?

Caddy,

The summed center channel is running at design condition (8 ohms mono is design). I have tried to explain it to you before and you still don't get it. I guess that's why I am an electrical engineer and you are in sales. Maybe we should stick to what we do best...

mikeski ~ I get it....summed 8 ohms mono (i am mirroring back your statemment and I understand and validating the setup)

however car THE MAJORITY of CAR audio amps are designed for 4 OHMS not 8 ohms.... the jl slash series is the only one I know of..

at 8 ohms the power will be reduced by HALF that at 4 ohms and in some cases cause damage to the amp~which leads to check with the amp manufacture before it is installed and expect a lot less power than at 4 ohms (for some odd reason you don't get this....I strongly suggest you call and find out yourself)

grant~ good question..all it has allowed is a good set of ears,open mind, and playing around with accoustics over the years to really look at this unique listening setting and offer solutions (which btw, I have been approached by several mfgs to offer solutuons to make a better tower speaker...some of them have come to market and most of them haven't...btw, the most obvious is a vertical array vs a horizontial array...

I have played around a lot with high end 2 channel, ht,intergrated home, and car over the years(high end 2 channel is my passion..I have done a couple car systems that the main focus has been sound quality.

when it comes to boat audio, it is really a unique install. 2 separate listening/control zones that require high powered amplifaction, this is further complicated by the intrusion of a pro audio hcld tower speakers that the listener is 80' out and intrudes upon the passengers in the boat...

so what we have is a hybrid pro audio setup with mobile electronics in a marine enviornment (has this ever been stated beforè?)

so if ANYONE has any significant experience backed up by a degree, published research with the AES (if you have to ask, then you don't even come close)....please step forward and share your experience...

in the meantime, ideas, suggestions, and actual experience from the readers is all we have...

btw, if you really want to hear what a tower speaker will do...hook it up to a refernce quality 800 rms into 4 ohm amp (ie nearly unlimited CLEAN power and clear source...any shortcoming will be revealed ~ btw, this is pretty much how audio components are reviewed(refernce quality gear)

I really think this is something that is really lacking right now...scientic measurements and listening test with a full blown reference system along with a more modest system with experinced listeners/riders (hey, has this idea ever come up before either ?)

nuff said....



(Message edited by clubmyke on February 26, 2007)

Actually I get it, you don't. Nothing is running at 8 ohms, no speakers are 8 ohms, nothing is in series, no 8 ohm. If you ask a confused question you will get a confused answer, that's what is happening when you talk to your buddies. You don't understand it well enough to ask the right question.

Simple. The amp is running 4 ohms on two channels and 2 ohms on two channels, it works great. Stop posting erroneous information.

Sorry, to be irritated, but I feel like I am talking to a stubborn child.

(Message edited by mikeski on February 26, 2007)

Since when do amps get damaged from working easier?

Mike actually the 2 channels with the pro 80's should still be 4 ohm(one connection per speaker) and then the center you could either run bridged or just leave one channel unused and use one side of the amp to keep everything 4ohm?

I should rephrase, I'm not an audiophile. I used that term because I thought it would apply to people who cared about how it sounded.
While I am not an audiophile. I do work in/with audio. I record, edit, and mix music. It is my job. I can't unlearn how to listen to stuff. And if I know something sounds wrong, it would drive me nuts. Like hearing "Hells Bells" at a football game, and knowing there's a guitar part missing because they're playing the left side only!

The 485 is a mono box. Tim from Wetsounds has been kind enough to explain this. So unless you have 2 of them, its mono. Some mixes get very dark when collapsed to mono. It can also muddy things up a little bit.
I would think it sounded bad and thats not a fair testament to the system. What's the point of having a great system, and then asking it to perform at 60% of it's quality range??

How much audiophile tec translates to boat stereos??? I would say a lot, because audio is audio.
My guage of the quality of a piece of gear is "Does it sound Good??" Not how expensive is it? or the name brand..
My home 5.1 system is fairly cheap and piecemeal, but I like how the components sounded, and it works well for me.

Caddy, I never said 4 wired mono would be better. It may be more efficient, but NOT better. I've been to a number of concerts, and they're using stereo P.A.s for most. Yes some are mono, but if its in the budget, and they care how it sounds they do stereo stuff too. It may not be as wide of an image, but thats a live thing.
I''m sorry, but I don't have any published works through AES, but would a Grammy nomination count for anything? ( probably not as much as they used to, but I'll still offer an educated opinion.) My degree is not electrical engineering, but in Music Production and Engineering.
Its a music degree, and while I am very proud of it, I am not delusional enough to claim to be "a real engineer". I did however pick up a few things about audio along the way.

You guys can duke it out over ohms, and amplifiers.

I just want it to sound right! And damn good!!

(Message edited by angrygolucky on February 26, 2007)

mikeski,

go back and look at YOUR POST

Caddy,

The summed center channel is running at design condition (8 ohms mono is design). I have tried to explain it to you before and you still don't get it. I guess that's why I am an electrical engineer and you are in sales. Maybe we should stick to what we do best...

I say the guy with the best sounding boat know's more than all of you.

Grant, so is that you or Mikeski?

When you hear the 2 you can decide

Anyone know how a 1000W 4Channel Kenwood amp would handle two Pro80s and a 485? I've been looking into those speakers and would like to know if i'll need a whole new setup or whether I can salvage some of the amps that I got with my boat.

Typical amplifier design condition: stereo 4 ohms, mono 8 ohms (applies to 2 or 4 channel amp)

Typical amplifier optimal load condition: stereo 2 ohms, mono 4 ohms

Threesome:
two Pro-80's: 4 ohms stereo or in mono 8 ohms mono (series wired), design condition either case

single Pro 485: 4 ohms mono, optimal load condition.

one amp or two, it's your call, easy to wire works great either way.

Upload threesome wiring.pdf (31.4 k)

end of lesson

Hey Mikeski! you forget the Zapco logo.

Sorry, could not help myself

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff.
Could you hookup the threesome so that the pro 80s run in stereo and 485s in mono and boost the power to the pro 80s to geta stereo sound at 80ft, or will the amps not work like that?

(Message edited by whitie on February 26, 2007)

Greg, whats up? This is Charles from CA. Met you a few years back with Michelle out on the lake.

And yes you can hook up the three some that way.

Hey I was there too. Was up Whitie....

Was up I'll hit ya'll up next time I'm in Cali.

mike great drawing its perfect for people who cant understand wiring configurations written out.


I think its sound off time!

mikeski - 8 ohms mono or stereo...not typical load for CAR audio amps (sorry to say)...this can cause damage to some amps and WILL have reduced output..CWTM !!!!

angrymike-i think you misunderstood what i meant by live concerts and mono...a listener in the audience at the actual live concert that is amplified - they are listening to a mono signal through the sound reinforcement system unless it is unamplified..please correct me if i am wrong...

in regards to mono vs stereo behind the boat...take a listen to both. in stereo there is alot of sound in the center and when the rider cuts out to ANY side, it collapses..little to no left channel information will be heard on the right side and visa-versa...i would strongly suggest you try both ways riding behind the boat and then report your findings..most boat owners when they run their system in mixed mono (if they can) dont go back (it sounds better and it is louder...)

in regards to the 485 being a "mono box" LOL !!!!!! any single cabinet speaker with drivers is a mono box...this is true of nvs, or skylon rubicons or anythin else.. prety most any manufacture will sell you a single speaker..

if you are after the best sound quality, get a pair of 485's or 1010's or 450' for "stereo" or mono and give a listen...this is still the easiest and best setup going imo...

f you want the absolute top sound quality, have dyanne at nvs make up a pair of custom pair of 1010's with B&C 10' drivers and horns back it with a high quality amp, head unit, and source material to back it vs a cheap amp, cheap head unit, and mp3 as a source..

btw, since you are a sound professional, i would suspect you are aware of the differences between a driver like the b&c, beyma, and rcf rather than a mass produced made in china crap or bottom of the line emmincence. if you are truly looking for SOUND QUALITY than it will be a custom job because the drivers that are being used are WWWWWAAAAAAYYYY subpar compared to what is available (i'll get off my soapbox on this one for now)...a pair of nvs 1010's with custom B&C drivers in a GOOD SETUP will SMOKE anything out there...it doesnt take a rocket scienctist to figure this one out..

btw,coaxial hcld horn driver are SEVERLY compromised in sound quality when compared to a seperate horn body and driver(this is true of any design wether it be nvs or wetsounds)...the coaxial hcld horns dont project sound out far enough and it is painfully loud in the boat rather than out to the rider (like anything take a listen for yourself, this is my observation)

grant-absolute sound quality is very, very subjective...i have friend with otl or set amps (class a @ 4 watts) with high efficency speakers and it sounds great..this is a totally different system than mine with high powered amps and inefficent speakers...

the same is true imo of ANY SYSTEM wether car or boat, i have heard some big $$$ systems sound like crap and very modest systems sound very, very good...

Can you explain how you will damage a amp running at 8ohm when the amp is working half as hard than if it were running at 4 or even 2 ohm?

Caddy QUOTE
zed is really nice gear but you need a 3 channel amp...

the zapco 4 channel(1000/4):
-bridgeable down to 3 channels
-full range mixed mono switch
-symbilink volume control for all channels.

methinks the zapco wins...


I have seen you post several times about the volume control cable. Me thinks you have just enough knowledge to stick your own foot in your mouth... Symbilink is simply put a balanced line interconnect designed to help eliminate induced noise.

Straight from Zapco's site

It's been said that getting there is half the battle, and with car audio installations this saying equally applies to the audio signal. With enemies like alternator whine, transient distortion and ringing, the path from the source to the amplifier is a noise minefield.

ZAPCO combats these problems with SymbiLink™, the installer's most powerful weapon against noisy installations. SymbiLink™ uses signal strength twice that of conventional RCA (balanced or differential), along with a high quality, fully shielded cable, making the SymbiLink™ Balanced Signal System impervious to noise and distortion.

SymbiLink™ preserves the purity and clarity of your music in any automotive installation

Caddy,
Most live systems are mono. The ones that are wired stereo usually keep the information very narrow, with the exception of special effects. But the mono P.A. thing also has more to do with the timing of multiple speaker arrays. I will not claim to be a P.A. expert, I'm a studio guy.
I'm an audio professional, not a "sound" professional.
As far as the behind the boat listening, I plan at listening from the back of the boat as well at from 60-75ft back. Knowing how summed mono mixes sound, I'm sure I will be happy with 4 loud speakers wired in stereo. It'll sound good in the boat and I cant imagine them sounding bad from farther back. And as far as the left not being heard from the right side when swinging out, I doubt your statement. You'd be too far back to hear no info from the opposite-side speaker. If anything its almost mono from back there because your speakers aren't far enough apart.
For left right listening in the studio it's suggested to have you and your speakers placed in an equilateral triangle from one another. There's no way to have that in a boat thats 7.5 to 8.5 feet awide. So from a distance, its all blending. I was commenting on a system based on all around listening, not just from the rider position.
Even if it were all mono, given you have 2 speaker points and a rider constantly changing distances between those, there will be phasing. Nobody is listening critically from the rider position.

The clarification of the 485 being mono, was because I had been told ( from a guy who wasn't sure) that the 485 was stereo ( or may have had 2 inputs). Obviously wrong info, and I had asked that question in a thread. I was skeptical of the accuracy of this info so I asked.
So no need to "laugh out loud" multiple drivers with a single box is not always mono. Depends on the inputs. I've seen guitar cabs wired in stereo and they are single cabinet multiple driver setups. It was an honest question. I know "pro" audio, not "consumer" audio. That's what forums like this should be for - a nice exchange of information. Some of these guys have had great, accurate information that we can all learn from. That is so much cooler to me than it turning into an intellectual pissing match.
I said it before, and I'll re-iterate.... You guys can duke it out over ohms and amps. I'll sit that one out!

(Message edited by angrygolucky on February 27, 2007)

This is like a clash of the audio Titans. Always great info from you guys.

Caddy,

Take any bridgeable amp apart and trace the speaker outputs. You will discover that L- is connected directly to R+. This "stacks" their waveform outputs causing the doubling in power. The amplifier loading on a pair of speakers wired in stereo is exactly the same as the loading with two 4 ohm speakers wired in series. So you statement about causing damage to a car amp is rediculous.

Please, go ask some of your friends at Zapco or your buddy Eric at Image Dynamics, send them my diagram so you don't goof up the question.

How can you call yourself an audiophile when you don't even understand the very basics??? This stuff is freshmen level, stereo 101, take a little time to learn what the heck you are talking about before you go on posting this rubbish.

mikeski,

I honestly don't understand....why do you have 8 ohms at the amp end ? that is what you have written down in your wiring diagram.

this is a truthful question...

peace out,

mike

chris,

I don't think you looked at the symbilink components and transmitters that zapco offers....

they offer a symbilink transmitter that allows you to hook up a separate volume cable...so instead of running rca's back and forth (or signal cables)one runs a volume cable instead....pretty slick setup imo...not to mention the built in line drivers for a output of 16 volts when used with a balanced deck..btw, I am pretty familiar with this system and I talking out of experience ( I have this setup in my boat vs talking out of hype/speculation....so unless you have run this setup before or really familiar with it, you may want to look at it closer before you say something really pop off and say something you know nothing about and take personal cheap shots with something you are obviously not familiar with

btw, there are a lot more advantages to running balanced vs unbalanced and not to mention symbilink balanced in this application

peace out,

mike

team neptunes- actually the amp has to work harder at 8 ohms due to increased resistance to get the same db output...

this is generallly not a problem in good home audio gear but there is a big difference between a good home amp and car amp....car amps have severly limited dynamic headroom due to differnces in electricity supplied and not to mention the vast differences in power supplies, caps, and cooling...

with this being said, when one takes a car amp and runs it hard at 8 ohms, it will overheat since the resistance has increased (doubled).... this is why most home gear is 8~6 ohms vs car audio 4-2 ohms...so as I have mentioned to the point of ad nasaum check with the manufacture of car amps before runing 8 ohms

The symbilink is still just a ballanced line cable.You keep saying volume controll. That is a completely seperate piece. And yes I am very familiar with the product. And it is not just that aplication, Balanced is always better.I have been working with zapco as a professional in the industry since before symbilink was even introduced. The simbalink is not A Volume Controll Cable. It is just being used as a control cable for the actual volume control, wich is a seperate box...

Your not going to get the same output at 8 ohm as you will at 4 ohm, I know that. If a amp is adjusted properly ( 2,4,or 8) you won't have any issues.

By the way, it not a symbilink volume control cable, it a Optional cable with knob for Volume Control. Kind of like what you would call a bass control off of a sub amp.

Clubmyke,

Thanks for admitting that you don't understand.

Speakers in series add impedence 4 + 4 = 8 ohms.

Let me try to explain using a hydraulic equivalent circuit.

4 shot glasses, 2 half full of booze, 2 empty.

Stereo wiring: pour glass A into glass C and pour glass B into glass D. You have transferred the "energy" from A and B into C and D.

Series/mono wiring (Option 2 from my diagram):
i. Pour A into B so B has twice as much "energy" as it started with.
ii.Pour B into C
iii. Pour half from C into D
You have transferred the same energy as you did in Option 1

A and B are the amp's channels, C and D are the speakers


You have transferred the energy in parallel fashion in the first case and in series fashion in the second case. The energy transferred is the same, it just takes a slightly different path.

Note: the spilling of booze constitutes a short circuit, so don't spill!

enjoy...

Chas,
If you look at my sketch I believe that you are loading the amp the same in both options so the output is the same either case.

L+R =(L+R)/2 + (L+R)/2
(Thevenin equivalent circuits)
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/mastascu/eLessonsHTML/Source/Source2.html#Why

The only difference is that the whole tower will run in mono in option 2, no output or load difference.

(Message edited by mikeski on February 28, 2007)

Ya Mike you are correct, just like running the amp at 4 ohm mono is the same as 2 ohm stereo.

chas - you are really, really, really confused on this one... it is obvious you havent done this before... all you are doing is looking at something off the web site and speculating..the bass boost port is only good for that and nothing else..


this is how you use a symbilink to control volume
with a zapco amp...take the SLB-U transmitter and place it in between the head unit and amp

-zapco vfm-B.01 (control cable)
-zapco SLB-U (symbilink transmitter)
(Allows any system to recognize SymbiLink™ Balanced technology.
- Creates a closed, balanced system using a SymbiLink™ Balanced receiver
( - Optional cable with knob for Volume Control, Boost-Cut Filter or both.)

again, this is how i have it in my system...it works well with my eclipse 8053 to have total volume control over my tower speakers and also a fully balanced system..

if you are looking at this setup, it works...and it works well, it offers a fully functional volume control without the hassles of running rca's back and forth.. get with a experienced shop or talk to zapco directly if you dont understand this, i dont know of another way to explain it...if you want i can post pictures of my set up...

chris - accept my apology for not being more specific when mentioning zapco symbilink...as i have posted this MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY times(get the idea ? sorry for coming across this way but this is pretty obvious since you mention you have used this system before)before.

it is a UNIQUE SYSTEM that consist of many parts:

-balanced operation
-built in line drivers
-additional connectors, splitters, volume control cables, and different transmitters are available...

if i missed anything, please feel free to add.

thanks,

mike



(Message edited by clubmyke on March 01, 2007)

mikeski,

thanks for the explantion. i appreciate it..i am with you on your diagram however it is only a hydraulic equivalent circuit in very, very, very, and i do mean very limited selection of ampsIF the amp is designed for full output into the specified impedence range like the JL slash series they can output full power into 2-8 ohms...

i agree with what you saying in theory...
-a amps power is usually doubled when bridged
-the amp will put out the same "current" at 4 ohms stereo as 8 ohms mono desite the higher resistance..

this is where the problem is with this setup..... this is car stereo not home or pro audio..

unless the amp is designed to run at 8 ohms (even though the power is doubled), there is a lot of resistence that can cause damage to the amp (this is why you dont see car amps speced into 8 ohms- they are generally 2-4 ohms) as i mentioned before it will work, but you should check with the manufacure because it can cause damage(like zapco)..

in looking at the diagram, it would be better to run in the 2 drivers in parallel so the amp see's a 2 ohm load and will output more power than the 8 ohm series in mono... keep in mind it generally takes a higher quality amp to do this, but there are alot more amps that can run 2 ohms mono vs 8 ohms mono..

thanks again,

mike

Sorry Clubmyke but you are still not getting it.

Given:
1. Any amp that is capable of pushing a mono load has the internal connection between it's stereo channels. If it didn't have the connection you would not get any output wired in mono because it would be an open circuit.

2. Car amp design load on one channel is 4 ohms

This describes nearly every amp from Alphasonic to Zapco (A to Z) and nearly everything in between, regardless of it's country of origin.

Bridging two channels into mono with an 8 ohm load is design condition. That's how you run house speakers and pro-audio speakers on car amps!

I learned the hard way four years ago when I hooked my old 8 ohm Evids up in stereo and smoked an amp. So, I quit being lazy and did the research and math to see what happened. The high impedence caused low current/high voltage which fried the amp. Next, I wired them in parallel to a cheap amp in mono. Since it was a cheap amp being pushed very hard it overheated and shut off. If it was a decent amp it would have worked but it was a $99 e-bay special. So I bought two identical $99 e-bay specials and hooked one to each Evid running in mono. Everything was just right running at design condition as I described in the previous post. Ran great for a year when I sold the boat, probably still running great today.

Don't feel bad, it took me a while to get it too, even with the benefit of working as an electrician 10 years, stereo installation for 5 years and my BSEE.

Please do me a favor... Stop posting bad information on WakeWorld until you get it figured out.

(Message edited by mikeski on March 01, 2007)

Clubmyke,

I have avoided the Symbilink discussion until now, but you are poking at guys who do this for a living so I feel somewhat compelled to chime in.

Here is the Zapco user's manual that describes how the system with electronic block diagrams. Rather than reading the marketing material, if you look at what is happening in the block diagram posted on page 9 http://www.zapco.com/prod/symb_prods/documents/SymbiLinkManual.pdf, you will see that they are just sending two active signals with a 180 degree phase shift. The theory is that the RFI will cancel so you only get the audio remainder on the load side of the signal. It works but does nothing more, does not add any usable control. The control is added via the sound processors that utilize symbilink as the protocol to deliver thier signals. Forgoing the sound processor you can accomplish nearly the same result with a twisted pair of RCA cables so that the + and the - of the signal are exposed equivalently to noise inducing RFI. This is not a new or unique concept. Audiocontrol also uses this technology to deliver audio signals effectively over long distances using standard CAT5 cables. Zapco just chose to use a proprietary DIN cable so they could make money off their cabling (proprietarity is one of the reasons I am not a big Zapco fan). ARC uses the CAT5 approach too.

Chris (audiopro) is a pretty sharp guy, I am on his side for this debate.

appreciate the apology, I must say the only reason I said anything in the first place is that alot of people take what the read here as fact.Wich would cause alot of people to be running around misinformed.

Carry on
Chris

Caddy
You confuse people more than helping them

(Message edited by chas on March 01, 2007)

guys,

please realize i checked into this for my setup...

in my findings - car amps dont like 8 ohms loads and can cause damage...please feel free to confirm that with zapco and others...all i am suggesting is to check WITH THE MANUFACTURE BEFORE YOU PULL THE TRIGGER ON 8 OHMS WITH CAR AMPS>>>>>>

if you have a problem with that statement - then i really suggest take a step back and make a couple phones calls (like Robert at zapco to confirm it - i was surprised!!!)

now if you call a simple phone confusing vs a caveat emptor then go ahead and try walking on water..

Caddy,

I do not need to call any manufacturer, I understand this extremely well.

Here is an a cut and paste from chapter 51 off www.bcae1.com:

2 Ohm Stereo vs 4 Ohm Mono Loads

There seems to be some confusion as to why a 4 ohm mono and a 2 ohm stereo load are the same, as far as the amplifier is concerned. When two 4 ohm speakers are connected to each channel of a 2 channel amplifier, the amplifier is capable of driving the speakers with half of the total power supply voltage. If the amplifier has a power supply which produces plus or minus 20 volts, it will not be able to drive the speakers on a single channel with any more than 20 volts at any point in time. If we have a 2 ohm load on each channel, at the highest point on the waveform the amplifier will apply 20 volts to the speaker load. Remember that we are only considering a single point in time for this example. If we go back to ohms law...

I=V/R
I=20/2
I=10 amperes

If we take a single 4 ohm speaker and bridge it on that same amplifier, the amplifier will be able to apply twice the voltage across the speaker. This is because while one speaker terminal is being driven positive (towards the positive rail), the other terminal is being driven towards the negative rail. This will allow the entire power supply voltage to be applied to the speaker's voice coil. It will now be able to drive the 4 ohm speaker with 40 volts instead of 20 volts in the previous example. Back to Ohm's law...

I=V/R
I=40/4
I=10 amperes

The same amount of current flows through the output transistors whether the amplifier is driving a 4 ohm mono load or 2 ohm stereo load. As far as the amplifier is concerned, they are the same load.

Better yet open the website and read the text with the diagrams, I think even you can follow their simplified diagrams.

There are other sources, textbooks, reference guides, owners manuals, etc. that explain the same thing. You probably didn't explain your situation very well and you are misinterpreting the answer incorrectly.

If you passed 6th grade math you will see that 8 ohms is the same load as 4 ohms stereo.

"walking on water..." please, stop already.

Clubmyke,

Open the website:
http://www.bcae1.com/

Go to chapter 57, scroll down to the dual voice calculator and input two 4 ohm voice coils wired in series connected to an amp wired in mono. You will see the equivalent load is 4 ohms per channel.

Pretty clear isn't it!

Do everybody on WW a favor, buy the bcae CD and learn a little about the things you are posting here.

(Message edited by mikeski on March 01, 2007)

mikeski,

this is from the site you mentioned...

Series Connection
We described series speaker connections on a previous page. This page will explain how the impedance changes when speakers are connected in series. In a series connection you simply connect the positive terminal of speaker 'A' to positive terminal of the amplifier. Then you connect the negative terminal of spkr 'A' to the positive terminal of speaker 'B'. Lastly connect the negative terminal of speaker 'B' to the negative terminal of the amplifier. If both of the speakers have an impedance of 4 ohms, the total impedance will be 8 ohms.In a series connection, you simply add the individual impedances"

Parallel Connection:
The impedance change with a parallel speaker connection is only slightly more complicated than the series connection. When speakers are connected in parallel, the impedance is reduced. This means that, given the same output voltage, the current demand on the amplifier will be increased. If all speakers have the same impedance, the total impedance is the impedance of a single speaker divided by the total number of speakers. If you have two 4 ohm speakers connected in parallel, the total impedance is 4/2 or 2 ohms. As you can see in the diagram below, all of the positive speaker connections are connected and then connected to the positive terminal of the amplifier. The same is done with all of the negative connections. You must be careful when paralleling speakers onto an amplifier. The impedance can quickly fall below safe levels. This is especially true when connecting speakers in parallel onto a bridged amplifier.

here are the pics !!!!!!!

series wiring



PARALLEL WIRING

mikeski,

this is from your website !!!!! assuming they are single voice coil 4 ohms drivers than the speakers will be 2 ohm in parallel or 8 ohms in series....

here is more from your website:

Power Sources/Impedance:
In home/commercial amplifiers, they have a mains voltage of at least 120 volts with which to work (most actually reduce the voltage with the power transformer). This means that they can use high impedance speakers and still produce high power. Using low impedance (less than 8 ohms) speakers with home audio equipment may well cause the output transistors to fail. Home equipment is designed for high voltage, low current output.

Most car audio equipment is designed to operate into lower impedance loads (4 ohms or less).

btw, I think i have mentioned this a couple of times....i will add on to what is mentioned above since it is obvious..

car audio amps are designed for low voltage (12v), high current output(2-4 ohms)..

here is more



High Current Amps:
Many people think that a car audio amplifier has to be bridged into a low impedance load (2 ohm mono) in order to produce a lot of power. Well, this isn't necessarily true. Some large high current amplifiers are designed with a relatively low rail voltage. These amplifiers would need a low impedance load (2 ohm mono or 1 ohm stereo) to produce their maximum power output. Other amplifiers have a relatively high rail voltage and will produce full power in a higher impedance such as 2 ohm stereo or 4 ohm mono. There is no impedance which can be considered best for all amplifiers. You must know what the amplifier was designed for, to know what load will produce the most power output.

this is mentioned in the previous post along with with CHECK WITH THE MANUFACTURE -"You must know what the amplifier was designed for"...because higher impedence loads in some amps will cause damage...

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 02, 2007)

here is more..from your website..

As we said earlier, the impedance of a speaker is its opposition to the flow of A.C. current. The lower the impedance, the higher the current flow (all else being equal). Increasing the impedance will decrease the current flow (all else being equal). You probably know that car audio speakers generally have lower impedance than home or commercial speakers. As you know, there is a limited amount of voltage available in an automobile (approximately 13.8 volts). This means that head units have only 13.8 volts to apply to the speaker leads. If we have only at 13.8 volts to drive into a speaker, there may not be sufficient volume output if the speaker has high impedance. The Ohm's Law formula and diagram below show the possible power output into various speaker impedances with a 13.8 volt power supply.
P = E2/R
Power = voltage2/impedance




Notice how the power doubles each time the load impedance is reduced by ½. Now keep in mind that the output transistors/chips cannot usually deliver the entire battery voltage to the speaker leads due to inefficiencies in the semiconductors. If it could apply the FULL 13.8 volts as in the previous example, the power output shown in the diagram would be possible. Please note that those numbers would be PEAK power. The Actual RMS output would be ½ peak power.

ring side announcer "caddy comes back with rapid combo's ........."

Keep it coming guys good comedy.

okay with this being said...(if the speakers are not set up in parallel so the amps delivers 2 ohms mono then it will be in 8 ohms series...)

i think the mistake is being made that car amp can deliver full power into 8 ohms mono is the same as 4 ohms stereo...

whoa !!! in high quality home and commerical amps that is generally true... however in car audio, it isnt (as with the jl slash series)

Home equipment is designed for high voltage, low current output.

Most car audio equipment is designed to operate into lower impedance loads (4 ohms or less).
(car audio amps are designed for low voltage (12v), high current output at 2-4 ohms)

i'll even go step further to say it is very, very, very, arrogant to not make a phone call to the engineers/designers/tech that make the gear to confirm if the car amp can handle a 8 ohm load or not.

it just makes sense to find a amp that will run at 2 ohms mono(a lot) than 8 ohms(1 that i know of)..

greg -

Caddy,

Now I get it...

You only read half of the chapter and then mis-apply the situation to meet your own incorrect conclusions. The diagrams that explain the situation on your tower is described down a little farther in the chapter.

I will come back later when I have a moment and post the relative sections.

Read on my apprentice...

ps Why do you keep bring up JL slash series? Do you have stock in them or are they the only company that still takes your calls?

lol mikeski.... i am in biotech..nothing to do with mobile audio (i have formally reviewed high end home audio cables and gear in the past)- i'll do my best to avoid the personal attacks and focus on the issue..

the only reason i mention the jl audio slash series amps is that is the only car amps i know of that will work into 8 ohms and produce full power into 8 ohms. if there is another car amp that is spec'ed into 8 ohms, then i dont know of it...btw ,you dont have to call jl audio - the spec's are on their site.

i HONESTLY still dont get how you can wire 2 SVC single voice coil 4 ohm speakers and get a 4 ohm load....it doesnt make sense...it will have to be 2 ohms (parallel) or 8 ohms(series)...

DONT YOU HAVE "8 OHMS MONO" WRITTEN DOWN ON YOUR DIAGRAM UNDER OPTION 2 ????? if i am wrong on this please correct me..

are you are assuming a bridged car amp can run full power at 8 ohms mono since the power is doubled when bridged ? as mentioned above- car amps are designed for 2-4 ohms loads depending on the design.




(Message edited by clubmyke on March 02, 2007)

the above pics from the rockford wiring wizard matches what you have in your diagram...

so if you want to run "trio" (a single pair and a dual single)here is the options with a 4 channel amp..

-in stereo on 2 channels for the pair and bridged mono on channel 3 for a 4 ohm load on the single (all 3 channels see 4 ohms)

-in mono for a 2 ohm or 8 ohm load for the pair and 4 ohm for the single

anything else past this is a total lack of honesty and suggest industry accomodations to wakeworld members to promote a product.

in really thinking about this...i've had it on this one...it is pretty obvious that some manufactures have lobbyist in the forums to promote their product..

peace out,

mike

LOL!!!

One more serious attempt...

The second Rockford Connection describes my Option 2 for connecting a pair of series wired tower speakers (any manufacturer, Rubicon, NVS, Wetsounds, Monster singles, any 4 ohm rated speaker). The combined load of the two speakers is 8 ohms. Connecting them to a amp wired in mono yields an equivalent load of 4 ohms per channel. Here is the diagram from the online calculator at bcae illustrating the 4 - 8 - 4 hookup. This diagram shows a dual voice coil speaker so you will have to use your imagination and understand that this connection is the same as what is described in the second Rockford Fosgate diagram above. The amp doesn't care where the voice coil is located. It's in chapter 58 towards the middle, plug in a few speaker loads and hit the calculate load button.

OK one more,

Your tower speakers are 4 ohm right? If I had your boat they would be connected to a decent 4 channel amp in the option 2 configuration I previously posted. It's very stable, mono signal across the tower, two channels at design load, two channels at optimum load with the gains adjusted to match the signal between the center and the outer speakers.

off come the gloves..

you are attempting to confuse the setup by showing a dual voice driver setup....WHY !!!!!

the drivers that are used are single voice coil unless I am mistaken...you cannot compare a single voice coil setup to a dual voice coil setup....you are confusing a single dual 4 ohm voice coil when it should be a single dual 2 ohm voice coil to 2 single 4 ohm voice coil speakers...

this is wrong, wrong, wrong and a poor attempt to intentionally hide your error... the question I have is whý not come out and admit your mistaken....are you saying to wire all 3 speakers off a single channel ? from your diagrams, no...

when 2 speakers with single voice coils are connected the impedence will be doubles in the case of series and halfed in the case of parallel...the load off the 2 singles will be 2 ohms or 8 ohms(very high or very low~not a normal load for a car audio amp).this is fact...

it is very obvious you are wrong and are attempting to confuse this difference of opinions (debate) on this setup so certain manufactures benefit...as I mentioned before ~i've had it on this one...it is pretty obvious that some manufactures have lobbyist in the forums to promote their product and this is one of them

in regards to this setup...I am not saying it won't work, but it requires a parallel connection and a amp that will drive a 2 ohm load when bridged (very high quality amp) or a very unique car amp that can run a 8 ohm load


(Message edited by clubmyke on March 02, 2007)

btw, my 3 towers speakers are 8 ohms each ( I replaced the drivers to 8 ohm svc)

all 3 are wired in parallel with a impedence of 2.67 ohms off a zapco 1100.1 mono amp

grant I do realize that is actually pretty funny...I do wish I had the c2k series, but I have the older reference series..
with that being said, do you mind if I take a funny cheap shot at yoù ?

ha ha, jokes on me...

Caddy, you totally GOT ME!!!

I thought you were seriously confused!

Glad to get your message tonight that you were just messing with me all along!

Now, I just have to laugh at anybody that reads all the way through this confusing thread to this point just to find out that you were messing with me all along... LOL

mikeski,

as I mentioned before...the gloves are off...I am serious about this..

I did not send you a mesaage nor do I have any idea what you are referring to about "messing with you all along"...

it should be pretty clear from my postings and the direction of this and other threads on this setup...I don't intentionally misrepresent for sake of `joking around`...

in really looking at this, anyone of reasonable intelligence and knowledge can see that those who have a vested interest in selling or installing mobile audio equipment or receive `industry accomodations` to those who will lobby their products will do or say anything to 'make the sale' even if it involves inferior amps or setup.. I am not affiliated with any manufacture, nor have I received special pricing...I am in it for the fun and enjoyment of it...

to say that I am really repulsed by your last post is a understatement since you are intentionally presenting wrong information..

Also,I am truly offended since I did not contact you and you are clearly misrepresenting the facts which is very obvious by now...

Caddy,
Mikeski explained in his post what it was, not trying to confuse anything.
Do you fully read these posts? Or do you gloss over them, and respond back before you get what they're writing.
If this were a conversation, would you be talking over someone? Or thinking about what you're going to say next instead of listening?
Thats how this thread reads..
You say you want to avoid personal attacks, but your posts have a condescending ring to them. I've never felt the need to post my qualifications before this thread.
Lobbyists? Are you a paranoid conspiracy theorist? (yes I know dealers and manufacturers are out here, but who gives a crap?)
We're all lobbyists regarding the gear we like. You've been zapco, zapco, zapco..

Didn't you even buy a zapco hat on ebay?
Would this make you a lobbyist? ( gotta love google!)

I love my wetsounds (NOT the threesome, and in stereo!)! I'm just getting to know them, and want to make some slight eq adjustment, but they're GREAT!! F-ing loud and clear.. A tad bright.
Does this make me a lobbyist? no..
Just an owner who loves his product!
As I stated in a previous post, some of these guys have great information that we can all learn from.
Agree to disagree, but try and learn too.

It's not funny, it's kinda sad,
You posted, while I was typing this...
What facts have INTENTIONALLY been misrepresented here?

(Message edited by angrygolucky on March 02, 2007)