Charging for gas to ride behind your boat

I know there may be previous threads on this, but in light of the fact that gas currently costs $3 - $3.40 per gallon how much do you request from guests/riders?

I used to request $10 per 30 minute wakeboarding set or $20 for two sets. But after spending two hours making a spreadsheet and realizing how much owning a boat is costing me, I think I'm going to start asking for $15 per set.

I think the amount would vary depending on what type of boat you have and where you live. I have a 1999 Toyota Epic 22 with a Titan II tower and we usually have 4-5 riders in the boat with 2 fat sacs full. It's a $23,000 boat.

If I had a older boat with a smaller engine and we rode without fat sacs, I'd be cool with still getting $10 for a pull.

Here's a link to the spreadsheet I made:
http://www.blueplastic.com/BoatUpkeepCosts.xls

Are you running a wakeboarding service or are your wakeboarding with friends?

Its cools to ask a regular crew to split gas costs for the day.

Its not cool to expect friends to pay for your boat ownership costs.

this is how i do it, ill fill it up so we have a full tank, then when were done riding we'll go fill it up again and divide the cost by how many people go out, it seems the farest way ive found so far

That's a good idea Rodney. We fill it up, take people out, if they offer gas money ... we take it. But like GD says, I'm not running a wakeboarding service, and just riding with friends.

That's a good idea Rodney. We fill it up, take people out, if they offer gas money ... we take it. But like GD says, I'm not running a wakeboarding service, I'm just riding with friends.

My .02

I look at it this way. I'm going anyway. I don't ask or expect anyone else to pay for MY entertainment. If I can't afford it, I shouldn't be going or even own a boat in the first place. Just the way I see it.
That said, I certainly do appreciate people offering to pay, and they will be FIRST on my list of friends to call to go with.

You know what makes boating NOT fun......creating a spreadsheet to figure out how much it costs you to operate. My regular crew knows i expect a donation if they come out but just toward gas not the tag or insurance, etc. If i added up what my boat costs me id pretty much have to sell it as it would make me even mader then when i pull up to the pump now. Good luck and happy boating

I totally agree with J. Fairleigh. If you had a beach house and you invited guests to stay for the week, I don't think it would be right to create a spread sheet, tab up everything you spend on maintaining your home (mortgage payment, electric bill, gas bill, water bill, phone bill, property taxes, cleaning fees, etc.) and charge your guests for the percentage of their usage. You just take them and understand that it is more fun to do things with friends, and be happy that you are fortunate enough to entertain them and yourself. Most likely, even if they don't chip in, they will do something for you in the future if they can.

Well, the spreadsheet is unrelated to the friend's gas money donation. I made the spreadsheet so I'd know how much it was costing me to own a boat.

Amen to Great Dane. It is pretty hard to wakeboard by yourself and if you start nickeling and dimeing your friends, pretty soon you will be out there by yourself.

I figure that if I invite you to go out on the lake for the day, you are my guest and do not expect you to pay for gas, if they offer to pay I usually refuse it and just ask for help cleaning the boat and taking the trash out of it. If they want to bring beer or food that's fine but I usually will already have that since my family goes. Just because you refuse the money doesn't mean you won't find it in your glove box later on though.

Gas is over $8.00 a gallon right now in the UK but like someone said earlier were going out anyway and if you can’t afford it you shouldn’t be doing it.
If someone wants to bung me some money that’s cool if not that’s cool too because you can’t play this game on your own.

super air has the right attitude, IMHO.
Your guest are exactly that...your GUESTS. Take care of them. Perhaps you are providing an opportunity for someone who couldn't otherwise afford it. Good for you.

If, however, the costs of boat ownership are too much, consider a PARTNERSHIP in which each owner shares equally in ALL the expenses of a boat. Be VERY careful, however, that each partner understands the rules, and that things that are running hour dependant (oil changes, service, etc.) are pro-rated by each owners actual use, and not percentage. Good record keeping is critical. Also, draft an agreement that allows a charge-back to the owner if the boat needs cleaned, repaired, etc. from their negligence. Also make sure there is a way for each owner to sell their percentage easily, only after unanimous consent of all the current owners.

Partnerships CAN work, but only about 15% of the time.

We had this discussion on another site. In our case, we found out that we were not comparing the same circumstances. The ones that don't accept and/or expect money were the ones that go out every for the day on a Saturday to hang out/ride/etc... On the rare occasion that I ever do that, I do not expect anything either.

On the flip side, and where it affects me the most: We ride 4-5 evenings a week, 3-4 riders, boat is constantly pulling. This equates to about $50+/- a day boat gas only, multiplied by 4-5 times a week. It adds up to the tune of about 800-1000/month. Is it fair for me to pay for my friends addiction? Luckily it has never been a problem for anyone in my regular crew, and we even rotate boats. Just something to think about. I will pat my crew on the back today and let them know I am glad this has never been an issue.

I tend to invite people back that donate to the cause. (Gas $$$) If you are stingy with paying for gas, you do not get invited, unless I am desperate for a spotter. (Not too often) GO GET YOUR OWN BOAT and see how paying for that feels!!!

Will the people that are paying you for pulls on YOUR boat going to get money back from YOU when/if you sell it assuming there is a + equity in the boat loan? According to your other post the equity is about $8000. Sounds like a (very) limited partnership. How will you split the $8k up, do you have a spreadsheet for that as well. I am not trying to be a jerk about it but charging your friends for pulls doesn't sound very friendly to me.

I like to know (actually i don't) how much money my boat "costs" me on an annual basis but I do not expect friends or family to pay for my boat or as i like to call it my "habit".

As Super Air stated... if you are cool about it you will often find some $$$'s in your boat or your tow vehicle. It was kinda cool to find $60 in my truck console the other day. We all know that it is not cheap to own a boat, new or old. What we can do is control our invitees... in other words if they do not offer to help in some way, monetarily or physically, you should be polite and let them move on to another boat (unless it is a really, really HOT chick).

summerobsession has the right attitude! Think about the first couple of times you went out on a boat. I thought it was pretty awesome that someone let me go out on their boat and i was very appreciative of it. At the time I was 16 and could not afford a boat and didn't really know people who had boats.

I believe that most people realize that with today's gas prices it is a nice gesture to chip in. Especially when you are filling up the tank and the pump is at $80-$100 and then you still have to put some gas in the tow vehicle, not to mention all the drinks and snacks.

There is one simple rule... You gotta Pay if you want to Play.

(Message edited by biz on September 12, 2005)

Here's a thought, spend less time making spreadsheets and more time riding. It's a sport not a business.

I split gas by the crew, no one seem to have problem with it. it's kinnd of like when you want to ski with you buddy on the slopes you don't pay for his lift ticket.

Wow...some of these replies are ridiculous.

TR, what gives you the impression that I'm charging people to help pay for my boat loan? Perhaps it was not very clear that I was looking to get reimbursed for the gas money that goes into the boat. I don't charge people the first 2 or 3 times they come out. But I think it's unfair for me to sponsor me + 10 friends who all ride regularly on my boat. If you don't mind paying $80 for each tank of gas every time you go out with your friends, you obviously have more money than me.

The excel spreadsheet is included in this post as a SIDE ITEM. Don't get it confused with my question of approximately how much other people think it's fair to pitch in for gas per set.

Jeff, what's wrong with my trying to get my finances under control by spending 2 hours making a spreatsheet so I can better understand how much owning a boat is costing me? Before creating the spreadsheet I didn't know if I was spending $3,000 or $10,000 per year on the boat. Not sure why some of you guys are pissed off that I now know exactly how much my boat costs me. I offered the spreadsheet on this post for you guys as a favor so you could also calculate how much a boat costs if you were interested in the numbers...

I am going to be buying a house or putting some money towards a business next year. I need to know if it is financially better for me to sell the boat to up my credit and get some cash for a down payment or keep the boat. Chill out! I didn't make a spreadsheet to show all my friends how much they need to pay me to ride behind my boat.

If I wanted to run a wakeboarding service I wouldn't ask for $10 or $15 per set, but rather $45 per set, which is what OWC in Orlando, FL charges for every 30 minutes.

summerobsession- You hit the nail on the head with that response. I have a couple of girlfriends of my wife that go out with us that have kids and unless we invited them to go out with us those kids would not have the opportunity to go to the lake and ride behind a boat and wakeboard. Seeing the expression on those kids face when they get back into the boat after a nice ride is priceless. Sometimes it's not about the $$$$ but about having fun and hanging out with people that really get a whole lot of enjoyment out of the kindness that you can provide to them.

Sameer, Cary hits it on the head:

By Cary Kalamajka (ndh2o) on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 12:18 pm:

We had this discussion on another site. In our case, we found out that we were not comparing the same circumstances. The ones that don't accept and/or expect money were the ones that go out every for the day on a Saturday to hang out/ride/etc... On the rare occasion that I ever do that, I do not expect anything either.

On the flip side, and where it affects me the most: We ride 4-5 evenings a week, 3-4 riders, boat is constantly pulling. This equates to about $50+/- a day boat gas only, multiplied by 4-5 times a week. It adds up to the tune of about 800-1000/month. Is it fair for me to pay for my friends addiction? Luckily it has never been a problem for anyone in my regular crew, and we even rotate boats. Just something to think about. I will pat my crew on the back today and let them know I am glad this has never been an issue.



>>> Your situation clearly fits into the second group. On one hand, I know that with the weight you're talking, your Epic is burning less than 4 gallons per hour - most fuel efficient towboat on the water. That's 2 gallons, or $6 to $7 of Chevron Super for a full half-hour pull. Load it up to 3,000 pounds and you'll be maxed at around 3 gallons, or $10 in fuel.

A good crew that rides with you often should maybe help a little more, but the big question is if you're out on any given day only because THEY want to ride, then you've got all the reason to ask them to pitch in for tow vehicle gas, launch fees, etc. You're in effect running a service, even if it is for friends, and they can pony up to cover all your expenses that day (if they so jones.)

On the other hand, if you're riding because you want to be out there, then you must admit that you'd have paid all of those fixed costs yourself whether the other rider came or not. (This means every single cost involved with getting an operable boat to where it's idling in the marina). At that point, the marginal cost for having another rider is simply the amount of fuel he's used (see the $6-10 mentioned above).

Money affects different people differently at different times. It sounds like you're feeling a little cramped financially or just used by your crew. You probably need to just let them know the situation and they'll step up - but before you do that, remember that your crew is what usually makes your day.

Good chemistry on the water is worth more to me than flat water or being able to land my little lame jumps. Don't go in there gangbusters explaining to them how easy they've been getting off without doing a little chillaxing first to put things in perspective.

And my money says you're spending more than you know ;-)

Sameer, To answer your question, some other threads i have seen you post on and very simply this... http://www.blueplastic.com/BoatUpkeepCosts.xls

I just don't understand the concept of "asking" my friends for money to go out on my boat...

Man, I take people out pretty much every time I go out. My belief is that it depends on what type of riders you take out. If it is somebody that just goes with you every now and then, I would just request a little gas money, maybe just enough to cover their session. On the other hand, I have a couple of people who go out with me every time I go. These people wilingly help me out with maintenance costs, etc. If it weren't for their help, I wouldn't be able to even take my boat out and ride. If you have people that go out with you consistently, and have no other way of getting a pull, they should realize how much money you are spending to support your group's habit and they should do their best to help you out. Just thought I would throw in my two cents.

the whores (like myself) need the boat owners to take us out on the boat to go wakeboarding; but, it works both ways. The boat owners need the whores to go out on the lake with them to help launch/trailer boat, drive, wind ropes and what not, and wipe down. It's a 2-way street and it needs to be respected by both parties. I'd probably be pretty insulted if someone said, (whipping out the adding machine) "you took two 35 minutes sets, gas was 3.08 per gallon, 2000 pounds of ballast, carry the 2, you owe me $31.50" I'd probably never go out with them again.

No one has ever asked me for gas money, but most of the time I offer. If I end up not giving money I help as much as I can with the obvious tasks. I probably wouldn't mind at all if the boat owner didn't do jack, just sat in the boat, let me launch it, sat there while I drove and the other people rode, went and took a set courtesy of my driving, then let me trailer the boat, then stood there with a brew while I wiped down. I wouldn't mind one bit.

So Thane Dogg, if your ever in the KY state, your more than welcome on my boat.

Everybody that bums pulls on other people's boat should take note of your post.

I'm not saying that the boat owner shouldn't do anything, but it really helps when the people that you bring out chip in financially and physically.

thane: You would be welcome on my boat any time as well!!

The truth for me is that the willingness to help with the TASKS involved is WAY more meaningful than just flipping me a 20 and watching me clean the boat!

Sameer:

Just a thought. If you send this same e-mail of yours to your "friends" (copied from the other thread), I would not worry much about the cost of gas. You won't need any.
It sounds like you need to put your money elsewhere. I completely respect that, and so, I would think, will your friends. Instead of asking them to pay for all the things you list in your e-mail, perhaps you could offer the boat to them first at a low price, and keep your friends instead of the boat. Then you won't have to worry about boat ownership costs, you can put your money where you want it, and you may even get the chance to go out out with THEM for rides!


e-mail:
Carlos,

Since we were talking about selling the boat next summer so we can concentrate on and put the money towards a business or house, I spend some time tonight calculating how much it actually costs to own a boat. The figures below do not include the fact that wakeboarding and owning a boat kills takes up A LOT of time.

I broke the costs down to yearly, monthly and per session (considering I take the boat out 4 times per month). I also included how much money I could get if I sold the boat + boat accessoreis + wakeboarding toys.

All of my figures in the spreadsheet are are precise as possible. None of the numbers are inflated. There were determined by reviewing how much it has cost to own the boat for the past 2 years.

The boat costs me $5,700 per year. This translates to $474 per month or $120 per session (4 sessions in one month).

Another interesting calculation I did was how much more it costs me in gas to own a 1999 F150 V6 manual instead of a 1999 Honda Civic manual. If I drive about 15,000 miles per year and if 87 grade gas costs $2.80, then it costs me $1,100 more every year to own a truck instead of a Honda Civic. My truck gets an average of 18 mpg and a Honda Civic gets $30 mpg.

Another interesting calculation. Suppose I take an average of 3 people out on the boat per session (so 4 riders total) and we go out four times a month, 12 months a year. If each guest pitches in $10 for gas, that's $30 per session, $120 per month and $1,440 per year. If I raise the price of per session to $15, it translates to $2,160 per year.

After looking at these numbers, I think I'm going to start charging people $15 per set and $30 if they want two sets. They're still getting one hell of a deal because OWC charges $50 for each boat pull/30 minute set.

If I sold the boat + everything else I could get $24,300 at the current NADA average boat value. I would have to double check this, but I think I currently owe about $16,000 on the boat. So if we sold the boat for $24,000, I'd get $8,000 cash.

Honestly, depending on the house we buy or the business venture we go into, I'd like to continue keeping the boat, but only taking it out once or twice a month. This would reduce the yearly cost to about $4,000 a year, which is still a lot. The most intelligent thing to do would be to sell the boat and be without a boat for 2 - 3 years and buy a nice malibu or mastercraft or another Toyota after that time.

See the attached spreadsheet for the rest of the details. Call me after reviewing the spreadsheet to discuss it.



(Message edited by SummerObsession on September 13, 2005)

J. Fairleigh,

Uhh...Carlos is a boat co-owner, not just a friend. He wanted to know how much the boat was costing us each year, so I made the spreadsheet after reviewing all of my invoices and stuff from the past 2 years.

And WTF...I'm not asking anyone to help pitch in for anything more than gas mulla.

I think most of this thread is based on a huge misunderstanding. I should have reworded the initial post.

It is however interesting that most of you boat owners pay for all of the gas yourself and don't get any gas money. I wish I had to money to do that. I'm 23 and most of my friends who ride are 19-23. Maybe the rest of you boat owners are in your 30s. That would make a difference in boat gas ethics, I suppose...

Thane's a youngin and he does it very right.

Hell we were out last weekend and i flat out told one new guy he either pitched in for gas or bought the first three rounds at the bar. Most of the time i will let a new person slide for the first time or two but like you guys i dont have the cash to just go toting everyone and their brother around for free. If your an able bodied working adult you can pitch in for gas. Now 2 weekends ago i took my son on his 13th b'day out with a couple of his friends from school TUBING and hell no i didnt ask for gas money from them or their parents.

I never really ask for gas money when we go out for a set or two but I hint towards it when we go out for a weekend trip where we are filling up the boat a couple of times.

"The boat costs me $5,700 per year"

"If I raise the price of per session to $15, it translates to $2,160 per year"

Dude makeing people pay for 38% of your boat cost is shady business. At best a friend should only pitch in 10% or less to the gas fund. YOUR GOING TO BE THERE ANYWAY.

I Fully expect my riding partners to make a signifigant contribution to the gas costs for a day of riding. Gas is over $3 now and it was steady over 2 weeks ago. Its just too expensive to front the bill alone for others recreation.

That being said, We go out on the boat to ride and ride only. We don;t picnic or go swiming. It not a family affair (as of yet). We go out to burn gas getting drug behind a boat that burns $20 of gas an hour at $3 a gallon.

I definitly dont expect people giving me extra money to cover my ownership cost or payments, or even my gas shares cost for the day. but, I'm not well off enough to drop $100 bucks on gas and only ride $30 of it.

Now if I invited a friend out to check out wakeboarding or I took a group of friends out to try wakeboarding for an hour then go swim and picnic, then I would go with the "your my guest" logic.

when gas goes back to $.99 a gallon, I'll buy.


(Message edited by jzwake on September 13, 2005)

Ditto JZWake!

I have friends that will go out to float around, soak up some sun, maybe try wakeboarding if the water is good. I don't need any gas money from them.

I had a friend that wanted to go every single time, used my equipment, helped herself to my food and drinks, while constantly nipping at my heels to race all over the lake to find a smooth spot and at the end of the day IF I WAS LUCKY threw me a $5 bill. She doesn't get invited anymore.

If your just going to hang out no money, if your going for a full day of riding all day I expect you to pitch in.

OK Sameer, I guess some clarification is in order.
In your e-mail to "Carlos", you use the word "we" several times when it comes to selling the boat, purchasing a house, etc. I thought you meant you and your significant owner or something. My bad. However, when you refer to "I" in how much you owe on the boat, and how much equity YOU would retain upon it's sale, I very clearly read this to mean you were the sole owner.
So, you are correct when you say there is a mis-understanding. Are you trying to figure out what to charge:
A. Co-owner
B. Regular crew
C. "Guests"

In this case I would say:
A. Proportionately equal split of annual FIXED costs based upon ownership percentage, plus an hourly "fee" to go towards repairs, etc. Co-owner pays for gas if he uses boat, you pay if you use the boat, split if your both using the boat.
B. A previously agreed upon hourly "fee" or perhaps a donation of cleaning time, maintenance help, etc.
C. Not a DAMN thing!!!

Again, if it a stretch to own the boat and you have other places you would like to place your money (And I DO respect that, just as I posted above!), perhaps selling to other owners and YOU paying the fee is a good idea.

For what it's worth, comparing your costs to a "retail" towing type service is not apples to apples. The insurance difference ALONE would probably double your estimates cost numbers, let alone labor, taxes, record keeping, emloyee benefits, yada, yada, yada.

10% from each rider in the boat should cover their part of the gas fund. Boat owners shouldn't skate all of the gas just becuase they own the boat.

Depoint50ae,

Above you said:

"Dude makeing people pay for 38% of your boat cost is shady business. At best a friend should only pitch in 10% or less to the gas fund. YOUR GOING TO BE THERE ANYWAY."

Your calculation that if I charge $15 per set then I'm asking people to pay for 38% of my boat is outrageously incorrect.

The boat costs me $5,700 per year. This figure includes my share of $20 for boat gas every time I go out. It does not include the gas that my friends ride on.

Try to understand how I determined the $5,700 figure and you won't confuse the calculations.

And you may want to rethink your statement that at best a friend should only contribute 10% or less to the gas fund. What if there are only two riders going out? Should I pay 90% of it and my friend pay 10%? Also...I think boat ethics dictate that when riding with a regular crew, the boat owner shouldn't pay for any of the gas fund.

Alright, time to kill this thread...

depoint50ae must be an officer in the AF in order to afford 90% of the gas. Theres no way id be bringing out regulars if the gas bill was $50-60 all the time and i only got $5-10. Yes they are friends and you are doing them a favor also just taking them out. They might not be able to afford a boat but let them try to even rent a pontoon boat for 4 hours let alone a full blown setup with crazy stereo, perfect pass, ballast, etc.
OH yea SFX the thread doesnt die just cause you say so...

Well, I think I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I have an 05 xstar. I have also owned other boats for the last 25 years.

My rule has always been first time for free. After that, if your being dragged around behind my boat, I expect you to pitch in for gas only for the boat only. I carry the cost of the boat, insurance, reg, etc. That's a given. But these days with gas over $3 and the boat will burn $75 in a day, I'm looking for a kick in.

As an example, I had this guy come on my boat with his 2 kids. My wife and I rode also, plus 1 other guy for 1 ride. The guy rode 3 times and the kids twice each. There were 12 rides for the day with the guy and his kids riding 7 of them. The guy gave me a $20 at the end of the day. This happened once before, where the guy brought 1 of his kids, each had 2 rides, he and his kid. He gave me a twenty.
I called him the next day after the second time and explained that I used about 20 gals of fuel and he and his kids rode more than half of the rides. I told him that my expectation was to share the gas expenses. He said he could bring a couple of cans of gas with him. I said that was fine. I haven't heard from him since.

What was I thinking? I didn't know that we all buy boats so that we don't have to pay for gas. It is so unfair for us to have to pay a boat payment then pony up more money for the gas to make the damn thing go.

Go out and wakeboard with out friends and have a blast.

I am not saying they should ride for free, however; I think it is shady to expect them to pay more than 10 dollars per person.

Do you drain the remaining gas and split it all up among your crew? Perhaps your crew should pitch in for your tow vehicle gas and payment as well. After all they should be grateful that you towed your boat to the water.

(Message edited by depoint50ae on September 16, 2005)

"I think it is shady to expect them to pay more than 10 dollars per person."

I think its shady to show up on someone's boat and not at least carry your own weight by not picking up an equal share of the fuel costs. What your really saying is "Its OK to screw them if you at least give them a courtesy reach around." pffft.

You can afford to go out and buy your own boards $ bindings. But you cant afford to pay your fair share of the gas? Sounds like you cant afford the sport.

Next you'll soon be telling the boat owners should buy you a new board, pay your bar tab, electric bill too just so we can be "grateful" for the privilege of your company.. (clue)


Disney, Six flags, dont run on a "thanks and a handshake" and you dont show up at their gate expecting a free ride.. Were not trying to make a profit but you're presence shouldn't leave me (as an owner) with any additional expense.

It's pretty obvious that our friend "desert eagle" doesn't own a boat.

Incorrect. I do own a boat. I just didn't purchase it so that I could charge as many people as possible to pay for it to putt around the lake. I signed up to pay for gas and when I signed up to pay for the boat. Most people on this board have boats that carry 10+ people. I guess 70-80 dollars for gas isn't a large enough donation to the gas fund. Hell what do I know?

I've never taken money from anyone coming out with us. I think it's great when people offer, but I still decline. They are my guests/friends. I like it when people bring drinks, food, etc. That just shows me people are appreciative.

I love to ride with other people...my wife drives, but doesn't ride. When I get some other riders on the boat, I think we feel off each other's energy and makes for a better session.

That said, I NEVER would ask anyone to pay to ride on the boat...chances are, I invited them anyways. But if someone happens to toss in some cash, I'm not going to say no. Guys who ride usually know how much it takes to own a boat, and they usually contribute...I certainly do when I'm out on someone else's boat.