Want more height in the jump?

This season is really my first full season of wakeboarding. I have a 2005 LF Trip. Riding behind an 02 X-star with stock ballast 4-6 people. Ride at 21 with 65 foot rope. When I jump, I can get wake to wake, but it seems like I'm getting no air? Maybe 1-2 feet off the water. I listed my equipment and stuff just as an fyi because I'm sure it's something in my form or lack of form that is causing this. I've done some videotaping to try and figure out what I'm doing wrong, but can't pick out any specific thing. It looks like I'm taking a progressive edge and standing tall at the wake, but I don't seem to be getting much air? I think part of it might be that after I stand tall or push off the top of the wake, I don't bring my board up to give that illusion of more air? I know video or pics would help, but any advice at all? Would be nice to be able to hook up with some advanced riders for a few days to learn from them.

put your handle lower.. that was my big thing too.. once I put the handle down to my waste, I exploded off the wake.

maybe try riding at 70', the wake will be a little wider, but it will make you work harder at getting to the other wake, hence more air?? yeah, and bring them knees up to your chest...just my .02

For what its worth I've been having the same problem. A buddy told me the same thing about the handle. It worked so well that now I'm having problems landing

I agree with Jayson--try riding with a longer rope length. If you are riding from a tower at 65' I think you'll be pretty close to the boat with a smaller wake. I don't have experience on your model boat, so this is all just a guess.

Here is randy behind my 17.5 crestliner....check out his height....its its all in the cut progressive and hardest at the end. Most people have heard the progressive edge thing but the ones that don't get the height just don't seem to do it,.....start edging slowly then increase progressively right into the wake. randys legs are at about 90degrees and he straightens them completley when he hits the wake. at the end you should feel alot of pressure in your legs and on the rope ..almost like its to hard for you to continue then you straighten your legs..bar down and jump

....Yes you can do everything right fundamentally.......however if you don't lean back far enough and haven't built any tension then all will be for not....another rider on my boat is like this ...he does every thing right fundamentally.....he just isn't aggressive enough with his cut....doesn't have that quick acceleration right at the end (not the beginning)

I would say you are probably either standing up too soon or too late. Video would help to evaluate better.

Thanks for all the tips so far, keep em comin. I think the handle one will be significant for me. Looking back I seem to be extending my arms out and up right at the wake. Need to hold them in closer. Also gotta work on getting those knees up!

It doesn't sound like a line tension problem as you are clearing the wake. My .02

One other thing I was thinking about. I hear "stand tall" at the wake and I've heard others say they actually jump or kind of try to olle off the top of the wake. Which is correct?

DO NOT try to ollie. If you see videos of pros riding (and you can some of that free on you tube or Alliance Wakeboard magazine's website), you'll see they just maintain good body position through the top of the wake (handle in, on edge, handle low to the hips and legs stiffened but not completely straight). Fewer moving parts=more consistency.

DO NOT try to ollie. If you see videos of pros riding (and you can some of that free on you tube or Alliance Wakeboard magazine's website), you'll see they just maintain good body position through the top of the wake (handle in, on edge, handle low to the hips and legs stiffened but not completely straight). Fewer moving parts=more consistency.

there was something in wakeboard mag this month that at first it says stand tall, but as you get better its more of an ollie type thing

check out the mag it should help

http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3061507690091415938crizJi

sorry the quality sucks on the website, but do i need to have my handle closer to my hip when edging in? i know i need to stand tall and take a more aggressive cut next time but just is my handle placement good?

(Message edited by bbking on July 16, 2007)

looks like you could use a longer line and a shorter cut. Your cut is so long you never really build tension you are seemingly just coasting into the wake. One other thing, you dont need to be edging as hard as you can when you are all the way outside the wake, one thing I've done that I think charlie patterson told me was hardest edge near the wake... period, doesn't matter if you are edging in or out, so you take one hard edge and then allow your board to coast out of the flats, get on edge slow and build it so its hard at the wake, plus when you are way outside like that you are pulling the boat over making it harder for the driver to pull a straight line as well as slowing it down, you also sort of absorbed the wake, you need a wider wake(longer line it seems) also looks like you were slipping coming in, dig the heels in a little more

sorry for being supercritical, just stating what a saw to try to give ya few pointers as it all adds up!

ya thanks duane, i like constructive criticism, some people are weird about it
i plan on forgetting any tricks next time and working on my jumps, i'm gonna make a list of stuff to work on while riding
thanks

GETTING OUT OF THE POOL is how I always describe it to people. Think of when your getting out of a pool in chest deep water. You first bend your knees, then with your hands you pull down as you spring up. Bending your knees is your approach to the wake and pulling down and spring up is as you are leaving the wake. This is something very simple and has nothing to do with boat speed, line length or wake size but you will be amazed at how high you can fly with the proper technique.

You are not edging hard enough as you approach the wake. Your speed is consistant the whole time. You need to dig your heels in harder as you approach the wake and build up tension in the line. Then when you hit the wake you stand or pop tall and push the handle down to your waist you will get more air.

Also in the video you slow down as you hit the wake. You need to keep accelerating into the air. A few more tries and you should be freaking yourself out in the air.

Bob, I didn't read all of the replies so forgive this if it's duplicated above.

To get more air, take a shorter deeper cut, and just try to land wake to wake. This will force you to pop correctly and straight up.

Make sure the handle is in as you leave the wake and through the jump. (You can experiment pulling the handle while you are in the air as well.)

Also, work your rope length out to 70-75 once you can clear the wake hs and ts consistently. Your speed should increase 1-1.5mph to match the rope length.

"Your speed should increase 1-1.5mph to match the rope length."

WTF? I don't think wakeboats go that fast

ok, well i'm going to just work on every 180 next time (minus ts backside) and just do what you guys told me
-stand tall
-don't edge out so far but edge in more aggressively on my heels

also one more thing, i was riding at 24 mph because it made the wake thin enough to clear, should i slow it down to 22-23mph and then? the wake will be wider but it does get higher
thanks

..if u havent got the jumping high thing down yet...I would try in the 21 to 22 range......at 24 If you cut properly you might find the pull overwhelming.

edging all the way up the wake ensures sweet pop

ya but at 21 22, my boat makes a sloppy wake (damn deckboats!!!) i thin i'm gonna try 22/23, 21 is just a little slow i think for me after riding at 24... i can jump but i'm just trying to improve

but ya the first time coming in fast at 24 was scary

...if your going at 24 ....just make sure you don't start so far out ...as once your edge starts diggin it is mad. just drift in a bit then start.

...and on your video your knees are bent right through the wake..probably absorbing some pop. The only reason your going to the other side is speed. pop=acceleration.....distance=speed. so straighten your legs when you hit the wake. Also you make such a nice toeside cut where we can see the bottom of your board.....but on your cut into the wake we can't. thats why you aren't getting the height.

try putting some weight or people in the front of your boat to smooth out the wake at slower speeds.....at 24 be patient because it will be hard to time everything perfect for a while.....because your coming in so quick.

(Message edited by absoluteboarder on July 17, 2007)

Just wanted to say thanks for the tips. By the way, I'm the OP, not the Hijacker of this thread . I got out last night with my wife and 9 year old and put the tips to work. Progressive cut through the wake, standing tall, keeping the handle in and low, and pulling up the knees. I also lengthened the rope and sped the boat up .5mph. I could tell by my nine year olds expressions that I must have been getting a lot more air. Was able to go wake to wake at will and even landed out in the flats a couple times. For the second set I pulled the center fins out of my LF Trip. It felt good, a little looser. I won't be putting them back in. Forgot the video camera at home though! Conditions were perfect last night. Lake was complete glass and virtually no other boats. Thanks for the help!

AFTER WATCHING YOUR VIDEO IM NOT A PRO OR ANYTHING BUT YOU NEED TO SIT DOWN MORE AND LEAN BACK ON THE ROPE TO APROACH THE WAKE WITH MORE OF AN EDGE, I JUST STARTED LEARNING HOW TO LAND IN THE FLAT'S MY SELF RIDING 80FT OF ROPE.AT 24, AND REMEMBER IT'S NOT REALLY AN OLLIE IT'S MORE OF A SCOOP OF THE WAKE, WHICH FEELS LIKE AN OLLIE. THAT CATAPULT'S YOU.

AND REMEMBER, DONT FORGET TO HAVE FUN

James, that's not my video, that's someone else's who hijacked the post.

.....haha thats funny didn't even notice that subtle hijack....nice going brett!....well bob at least you and him got some good advice which is what its all about ....still thats funny.(simple thingd amuse me)

I agree Michael, we both got good tips.

haha, i did hijack and i'm sorry, but i'm in your position also, i can't get any vertical jump and i know its not the white in me, its my technique

i can't really weight the front since i have a deckboat, i'm gonna slow it down to 22/23 which should hopefully make a bigger wake but not a sloppy one, thanks for all the help and i'll be testing this out tomorrow or friday

you can have your thread back Bob

All that has been said so far, progressive cut, handle in close, stand up tall, etc., is all dead on. However, a year or two ago someone explained the physics of "pop" to me in a way that made it a little easier to understand. What gives you pop is line tension and a rigid body that will transfer the energy generated through the bottom of your board. Think of it as playing tug-o-war with the boat. To win tug-o-war with the boat you cannot give the line back to the boat, period. If you do you will lose the battle and get less pop. There are three ways to give the line back to the boat.

The first way is to let off of your edge as you are heading into and up the wake. When you let off your edge the boat is pulling you towards it and you are losing the tug-o-war battle. This results in less line tension and kills your pop. You must be edging away from the boat as you leave the wake.

The second way is to let out your arms (handle) as you edge towards and up the wake. By doing so you are giving a good foot or more of the line back to the boat. This also results in less line tension and kills your pop.

The third way is to allow your legs to bend while edging towards and up the wake. By doing so you are absorbing all of the energy you generated by keeping the line tight with your edge and handle position. You are allowing your legs to become shock absorbers. You want that energy to travel through your legs all the way through the bottom of your board. Imagine if your car did not have shock absorbers and you went over a speed bump at 22 mph. Your car would shot straight up. The shock absorbers on your car absorb the energy caused by the collision over the bump. It’s the same theory in wakeboarding.

Although keeping the handle in close and keeping your legs straight while edging towards and up the wake can help keep tension on the line, it is possible to get just as much pop with your arms all the way out and your legs bent. The key is that in doing so your body must be rigid. It's the movement of your arms and legs as you leave the wake that dissipates the energy generated from the line tension. Again, your legs can be bent at the knee so long as they don't bend any further. It's all about your body being rigid so that it transfers the energy generated from the line tension straight through the bottom of your board. Most of us just find it a whole lot easier to keep our legs rigid by locking our knees in a standing position. It’s also easier to assure that your arms will not extend by pushing the handle down as you edge through the wake. The getting out of the swimming pool analogy is a perfect example. Doing this more than assures that you will not be giving up line tension, or absorbing the pop through your knees as you leave the wake. Also, another reason to keep the handle in close is so that you remain on axis and stay balanced through the air. Letting your arms extend as you leave the wake not only kills your pop by giving the line back to the boat, but it causes you to leave the wake off balance.

Progressive edge is a phrase very often used, but the reason for it is usually not explained. You could start edging from way out in the flats and as long as you never let off your edge, never give the line back to the boat by extending your arms, and never absorbed the pop by bending your knees at the wake. However, you would get far more pop than you’re probably willing to handle. Watch Randall Harris and take notice of where he starts his progressive edge and you’ll see what I mean. Taking a progressive edge from closer in to the wake allows you to approach the wake in a more controlled manor which makes it easier for you to stay in control while in the air. You start drifting into the wake slowly and then accelerate progressively faster as you get closer to the wake. This ensures that you are still on edge while going up the wake. What usually happens when novice riders attempt to begin their cut from far out into the flats is they build up more speed than they are comfortable with by the time they get to the wake. Then they let off of their edge to slow down, which ultimately kills the line tension and then their pop. Provided you hold your edge through the wake, keep the handle in close, and stay rigid in the legs while leaving the wake, you can start your cut from the trough (3 feet from the wake) and still clear both wakes with a nice amount of height.

Each rider is different and some riders do one or more of the 3 line tension factors better than they do another. Mastering all three is what makes good riders good. For me it’s still a work in progress. After 5 years of riding I am just now starting to put all three together. I don’t always get all three correctly every time, but when I do the pop scares the crap out of me.

My .02

......nicely said!

Richard, one of the best and most clear descriptions I have read I am about to copy and past that into a word doc and give it to my wife?

george, whats with the question mark...

Richard .... VERY WELL SAID !!!

Richard....WOW!!!!!!Thanks for sharing that.

Richard,

Just curious, I guess by extending bent legs you are increasing line tension even more than legs remaining straight and you should get even higher? Does that sound right?

Robert, you are correct. It’s the same as when you push the handle down as you leave the wake. Doing so not only prevents you from giving the line back to the boat, it increases the line tension as well. Extending your legs not only keeps your knees from absorbing the energy, it also helps you dig in your edge a little. I have always heard that to help you extend your legs you should push your toes down. However, doing so will take you off of your back edge a little. Instead, extend your legs and dig your heels in.

One thing I've come to find with my own riding is that understanding these principles is one thing, but applying them is another story. Over the past couple of months I've been focusing on other specific tricks. In doing so, I have neglected to keep focus on my HS jumps. I video taped myself the other day and was pretty disappointed to see how I was not extending my legs like I should and how I was letting the handle get away from me. It's weird that for some people proper technique comes naturally and for others like me, you really have to make a point to focus on it. However, the key is to recognize that there are different techniques for different tricks. When doing HS 180’s I found myself having a tough time learning them because taking a hard edge up the wake had me leaning back on my edge so much that I had a tough time getting over my toes for the landing. To help correct this I started to let of my edge at the wake so I was more centered over my board in the air, which made it easier to get over my toes for landing HS 180’s. Now my HS 180’s look great, but I’ve completely gotten out of the habit of edging correctly for a HS w2w jump.

Tonight when I ride I am going to be a heel side hero. I'm going to spend at least two sets doing nothing but HS jumps while doing my best to edge all the way through the wake, keep the handle in, and extend my legs. It’s all about repetition until it becomes a subconscious habit.

There are a couple other things to consider in regards to your edging technique……

The first one is that when you leave the wake you may or may not always be on axis or balanced in the air. After you learn the three techniques of proper edging to get the pop you are looking for, the fourth thing you need to learn is how to use the handle to re-balance yourself while in the air. Think of it as walking a tight rope while holding on to a rope. When you begin to get off balance on the tight rope you can use the rope you are holding to pull yourself back on balance. The same is true with the wake line and handle. If you find yourself off balance in the air use the handle to pull yourself back into balance. You can also use the handle to pull yourself over the second wake if you look down and see that you’re coming up a little short. This trick helps me a lot on TS jumps that I am coming up a little short on.

The next thing to consider is the size and type of wake you are riding. Wake characteristics vary from boat to boat. For example, I find that when I ride behind a SAN 210 the wake is so firm that it makes up for some of my short comings in my edging technique. I can still get great pop even when I don’t do everything correctly. When I ride a wake that is smaller than what I am used to I have to take a longer harder cut to achieve the same pop that I am comfortable with. When I ride a wake that is bigger than I’m used to I have to take a shorter cut to avoid getting booted out of my comfort zone. The point is wakeboarding is loaded with variables. What makes a good wake boarder good is their ability to adjust to these variables on the fly. Maybe someday I will be able to actually practice what I preach

said like a pro

Richard, great tips. I also have a lot of trouble with my jumps and your remarks are more or less a clinic of everything I do wrong. I'm great at identifying what other riders aren't doing and helping them but when I'm out there myself it all goes out the window: My back hurts, I remember all the face plants, the boat's going too fast, the water flowing over the back of my board looks cool, I like the music, the wake is huge, my cut freaks me out, my balance is off, I bend my knees to absorb the wake, I bend over at the waist and extend my arms, I look down at the water, I back off my cut at the trough and I end up getting two or three feet of pop at the most. I've printed out your tips and will tape them to my dash for next week's trip. Thanks

Richard,

Good stuff! This should help me and my wife with our strugles of simple w2w,and pop. I have printed your advise and I'll keep it in the boat for pre-ride pump.

Again, thanks for sharing with WakeWorld!

richard ur tips are absolutly amazing, but when ever i fall going hs w2w its always because im leaning backwards. how can i pull in to handle to re ajust my self, i thought about trying to grab the ts of my board my a indy maybe it would put me back on axis

also i used to ride with the rope tied all the way down at the water because we didnt have a tower, but now i found a way of tying to cleats up 2 feet and it pulls me up another two feet, the diference is remarkable

Richard, great tips! Do you have any video to accompany the tips and make it a virtual wakeboarding clinic? I am going to make sure I think about the three elements you mentioned next time out!