yet another backroll thred

so ive been trying to convince my dad to let me try an invert for the longest time. on friday we had glass as far as you could say. so i begged and begged. finally he said yes. so i tired it 4 times and didnt come close once. i under rotated on all of them and kept dropping my back hand. i heard that people normally over rotate. but no matter what i did i would under rotate. and the first 2 jumps if i remeber right i kept dropping my back hand which would 180 the board.
i we took video. but i cant get it on the computer due to it being an old camera.
but we do have pictures. and the camera takes them pretty quick so here you go. 3 different attempts.

any tips help or advice would be sweet.

Your throwing the trick way to early. I have this issue to. You need to wait for the pop to throw it. Remember to keep you elbows low and hands low.

Your legs are bent leaving the wake as well. Put your chin pinned to your lead shoulder.

Stand Tall of the wake for a back roll, and when you edge in think about cutting away from the boat and hold on with both hands, keep your eyes open and spot your landing and what ever you do commit and you will get it...

okay, and what type of cut should you use? i use a really wide mellow cut for most everything. and i thought you where suposed to start throwing your shoulder back right before you hit the wake? when exactly should i start throwing it?

i don't have much advise to give (seeing as I am in the same situation as you) but when i try i try to take a harder edge through the wake. good luck, hopefully we will both hit it soon!!!

oh and and a side note what lake is that?

progressive edge...pick your speed up as you approach the wake and stand taller. way too hunched over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw8m5EEb4Vc

Try this link the video is a little long but explanes the trick well..

kyle, we where at cottonwood cove. its just south of hoover dam. the water was epic all day there.

and i use a progresive edge. but i can clear the wake cutting only 4 feet out. or 15 feet out. just changes on how hard i cut. thats what i was curious on

you are very lucky! The last time I was up there it was wind chopped all day. But ya i am going out to the river next weekend. Hopefully I can throw one all the way around!

we used to live in henderson. and mead is always choppy. i hate the lakes there. but we went to echo bay, 2 foot swells. but we found some good water about 20 minute boat ride away. and we went into a few spots at mead and never found good water. we found ridable but nothing great. we hit up havasu. and on friday we went to cotton wood. no wind , no one there. and glass as far as we could see

The trick clicks for anyone whose skateboarded before if you just tell them to try to use the wake to loop out as you go up it. If you've skated you'll know what I'm trying to say.

haha sweet i skate so these should be no problem for me!

Just keep riding up the wake like it is a tube

maybe these photos of me doing one might help, but probably not much more than what has ben said. keep working at it

i dont skate. never got into it. i cant even ollie on a skateboard

http://www.learnwake.com/samples/lib2.php

This stepped format has helped me a ton. Still haven't ridden one out, but I'm finally close.

Very nice!!! I'm going to Havasu toward the end of the week. Hopefully I can find water like that!

we got to havasu at 6 AM it was a 3 hour drive. we left by 9 AM it was blown out. and that was on a wed. 4 of us got a quick set in. then the lake was unridable.

Make sure when you throw it to look over your leading shoulder. And definitly wait for the pop.

so let me get this straight. i ride regular. so your saying to look over my left shoulder? i thought you wanted to throw everything back so you could get the rotation? if im looking over my left shoulder. how do i get the rotation?
(that may sound sarcastic or rude. but dont take it that way. im serious)

I keep losing the rope with both hands 3/4 of the way through. Any thoughts as to what I am doing wrong?

(I know, I know - setting myself up for a "man up" type comment here. Pretty sure it's not a strength thing though.)

where your head looks, your body follows.

Look where your looking at the takeoff, down at the wake, and your looking at that spot through the entire trick.

Now look at the example somone posted. the rider is looking up at the sky, over his lead shoulder.

gotta look where ya wanna go.

O okay. that makes sense. thanks alot.

tried again today. still under rotating. anyone have any ideas?

i am in the same boat. My dad usually tows me at 21-22mph. i am gonna try it at 23 or 24 mph. maybe that will give more height

Simple! Tension in the line, stay tall, keep your elbow close to your body (it make you rotate around the center of your body), pop at the top of the wake and look behind your back shoulder!
If you change your position during the flip, you'll change the rotation! If you extend your arms during the flip, it will stop the rotation to! It's good to use this when you spot your landing and see that you rotation is too fast...
Set it and launch it... after your in the air, keep the position!

I can't land one yet...but I have the rotation down easy. The key to the rotation is understanding the edge and how it creates the rotation. You do not 'throw' this trick. It throws you.

I have to disagree with some of the advice here..even though I can not do it...and those giving the advice probably can. Looking over your shoulder, keeping your elbows in, all that stuff will not help if you don't have the edge down. Those things do not help you rotate...they help you land it. You are not even getting the rotation...so that advice is ahead of where you are.

Also, 'progressive edge' does not adequately describe how you edge, and release the edge. You use a progressive edge for a normal wake jump...which is totally different that this. It is not just edging progressively. It is the position you edge in, and how you release the board.

Edge with a TALL position. Very little bend in your knees. Build tension very late...right as you approach the base of the wake. You are essentially going to 'over edge' the board right as you approach the wake, while edging in this tall position. Then right before your are going to blow out and lose the edge...you direct all that force on the board by letting the board come back under and ahead of you...and this is important...while maintaining that same stance. You do not stand taller...because you are already edging tall.

It is more like a pivot move. Your whole body pivots abount your hips. You are edging in this tall position. Board out in front of you, shoulders back. As you fully load up the board...and have to release so it wont blow out...you use all that force to let the board come back up under and away from you at about a45 degree angle.

Kyle describes the key motion in his Learnwake vid. See how he does that edge in the flat..and nearly gets tossed over the nose when he is not even doing a flip? That is the motion you are missing.

(Message edited by kitewake on July 27, 2009)

Here are my first attemps. I sort of tried this on a whim last week...as everyone in the boat was sort of daring me to try it. I thought I had a good understanding of how the edge worked...so I figured what the hell....

http://s725.photobucket.com/albums/ww251/shooter7o7/

Before the 1st sequence of 8 shots in the flat. I practiced the load and release of the edge like Kyle shows in the vid. I was nearly getting pitched over the nose every time...so I thought I had a handle on it. Boat speed about 18 mph here.

The key frames in the 1st sequence are #2 and #4. Look how tall I am in #2. In #4 you can see how sudden the edge and release was by looking at the water. In the span of about 5 feet, I go from no edge...to an overedge...to releasing the board ahead and back. I released the handle almost immediately like a wuss...but still made it about 80% of the way around. This was my 1st attempt ever.

The next sequence of 10 shots was one of my 1st attempts behind the wake. I don't think we got picsof the first one..though it was similar. 18.5 mph...super short rope. I took a super short approach...just enough to get the board square to the wake...maybe 8-10 feet out.

Frame by Frame:
#1: Almost no edge. Semi-Tall position.
#2: Still tall...very little edge. One a real jump...at normal rope length, I would need to be taller (less knee bend) to get more pop I think. With this short wake though...I did not need it.
#3: Starting to edge, tall position, the board is starting to come back under me
#4: Hard edge here. Look how deep the board is in the water. My knee bend is about the same, but my body is straight up and down instead of leaning back against the rope. Compare this to the 1st pic in your 1st sequence. You have no tension. The board is flat. No tension = no energy = no rotation. Build the energy with the edge...then create the rotation by releasing the energy in the correct direction.
#5: Releasing the board behind and away. Also tossing the handle like a scared little girl!...but hey...it was one of my 1st attempts.
#6 on: Since I tossed the handle...I am along for the ride from this point on. But I did spot the landing, and come around.

Last sequence...my 3rd or 4th try.
#1: Starts at takeoff...my photog missed the approach. Take off a little tail heavy.
#2: Everything OK so far
#3: Things are starting to go wrong here. I am letting my arms come up instead of keeping my elbows pinned to my side. Aside from that...it looks right.
#5: I held on the handle a till I spotted the landing at least.
Last frame: Because I took off tail heavy and dropped the handle...I land back and revert. Landing revert is actually a sign that I have a solid rotation down. A good backrolledge is supposed to turn revert naturally.

I hope that helps. I would say that you need to concentrate on the edging position and the edge release to get the rotation down. It is super easy once you have the 'aha' moment and undertand how to release the edge.

You can see this as well in Jeremy's sequence. The 1st two frames are the most important. He is edging tall...and in the second frame...his has the same body position, but his body is oriented differently. The board is coming up under him, and he is releasing that energy ahead and away at a 45 degree angle. Textbook. From that point on, it is a matte of air awareness. Keeping the elbows in, and spotting the landing. That is where I need help. I think with some tramp practice I could have it down soon.

(Message edited by kitewake on July 28, 2009)

>I have to disagree with some of the advice
>here..even though I can not do it...and those >giving the advice probably can. Looking over your >shoulder, keeping your elbows in, all that stuff >will not help if you don't have the edge down. >Those things do not help you rotate...they help >you land it. You are not even getting the >rotation...so that advice is ahead of where you .
are.
.

thoes things are what keep your edge down. They are expressing poroper form and there for proper edge.

keeping your head over your shoulder and keeping the handle in most definitly do cause you to spin. They are just about the only thing that does.
We dont worry about landing untill we've landed a couple or tow, then its just a matter of when you stop looking and let out.

Really...then explain how I complete the rotation doing neither of those things. The way you release the board is what creates the rotation.

Looking over your shoulder helps you spot your landing and get your body in position. Keeping you hands in stabilizes the rotation by providing an axis at your center of mass to rotate about...but neither of these provide the rotational energy. They can not.

Once you are in the air, you can not create any additional rotation...you can only change your polar moment of inertia by making your body more or less stretched out about the center of rotation. This is how an ice skater speeds and slows a spin using her arms. Speed can change..but the rotational momentum is constant. Physics...it's not just a good idea...it's the LAW.

(Message edited by kitewake on July 28, 2009)

im getting more of the rotation, im getting about 3/4's of it. im hoping to land it next time i ride. and that cut you where talking about,. i figured it cant hrt to try, it helped alot.

You can argue about what you think is and isn't right all you want, but the fact of the matter is most of the guys giving advice here have the trick down, so they have a little more credibility. And even if there are others such as yourself giving advice, it is all consistent with the guys that actually do have the trick down. Additionally, keeping your hands in WOULD contribute to rotational energy, as keeping your hands in the entire time maintains the line tension, which supplies the rotational energy. Letting your hands out reduces line tension, reducing your speed/energy.

learnwake.com
enough said.

David,

Glad it was helpful. Trust me...I did not come up with this way of explaining it on my own. It was explained to me by a very good coach....and he insisted that the first step is understanding the edge and edge release. If you don't have that down...and start worrying about all that other stuff...you will build bad habits.

Let see some new pics...

(Message edited by kitewake on August 02, 2009)

THE BOOK

And please thank your papa everyday for allowing you to ride all over the Southwest.

we didnt take pictures yesterday, and i was hitting the wake with my legs a little stiffer then normal, and i had my slbows locked into my waist through the entire thing until my nose dug into the water.
i dont know if it was the edge, or someting else i was doing, but i was getting more rotation, i tried to combine alot of what i read in here hoping to get it. and also, normally i drop my lead hand for some reason that i dont know, which throws me into a 180. but yesterday i was able to hold on with both hands, which im sure helped to.

and jonny, we went up to vegas because we used to live there and we have family there, we normally go like 3 times a year, but this time we drug the boat up with us. and i do thank him, dont worry. haha

all this advice and nobody mentioned that you're kicking your back leg & hip out and rotating a backside 180 more than you're initiating a backroll....

Here's some constructive criticism:
look at your body position in your 5th and 9th photos and compare it to Jeremy's 2nd photo. You're out of position trying to initiate the trick in the wrong way before you even leave the wake. And you're not popping, you're knees are bent just after you leave the wake which means you're absorbing the wake and that's gonna make it very hard to land this trick.

In Jeremy's 3rd photo he's upright b/c he's popping first and his head is turned towards his lead armpit b/c he's initiating the rotation with his head.

You need to approach the wake more balanced with a good progressive edge (hardest edge at the peak of the wake - really don't need to build a ton of speed for this trick as much as you need a solid edge at the top of the wake (if you look at Jeremy's 1st photo, he's really not cutting that hard but if you look at his 2nd photo he's definitely got more edge than he did in his first), POP first, then look down towards your lead armpit and let both feet drift behind you while keeping the handle near your belly button with both hands. Don't worry about letting go with one hand until/unless you over-rotate a few (over-rotating isn't a bad thing eihter, in fact if you're over rotating, you're ready to land it).

Doing a couple good solid wake to wake jumps with a progressive edge and popping may be a good idea before you go for the backroll also.

Hope this helps, good luck.

David I just starting getting mine down more and what really helped a lot for me was to wait as long as I could before throwing the roll. I know they show him riding up like a ramp and he is almost flipping right off the wake, but you need to get pop off of the wake a LOT more than in your first pics. Try to pop and then throw it. Not saying to change your whole approach, just how to think about the timing. IMHO.

David, what's evident in your pictures is that you are not edging away from the boat as you ride up the wake. In your recent post you say that your nose dug into the water.

If you edge away from the boat all the way through the wake, your flip will change the axis such that if you don't get enough pop then you will land on your back rather than nosing in. Nosing in is dangerous because it can hurt you. Also edging away from the boat through the wake will speed up the flip rotation.

If you assign a percentage of edging force to your approach, you should start out with a low force, build up to about 70%, then as you hit the wake increase quickly up to max (100%). This is a conceptional thing. You need to snap the last bit of edge out as you hit the wake. The smaller the wake the more this is important. Huge wakes give you a lot of leeway in how you hit it. But small wakes take more energy as you hit the wake.

From your pic it looks like you've got a nice wake.

I found an old pic of me. I put a pink arrow at what I think illustrates what I was saying. It's hard to tell but the arrow points to where you see the top of the board as I leave the wake. In order for the board to have a toe down angle at that point of coming up the wake you need to edge hard away from the boat.

In my early days of throwing the roll I couldn't hang on with my trailing hand or it would throw me to revert. I since corrected that.

john, when you say im not edging away from the boat, i dont understand what you mean, are you saying im not edging all the way through the wake? ive never heard anyone say edging away from the boat, so i dont understand what your saying. and i only had 2 falls when the nose dug in, and neither hurt, ive only had 1 fall that hurt, and my knee was bothering me that day anyways, and thats what hurt when i hit the water.

and BTW those pics of the wake, are with 1 driver, 1 spotter, and a 650 lb sac in the bow about half full,
our boat likes about 750 lbs in the bow, and 4 people in back of the boat including driver and spotter

He means to edge back, away from your direction of travel. Driving the board away from the boat as you pop is what gives you the rotation. That combined with keeping the handle tight and around hip level are the keys to the trick.

Look at the sequence of John, and how the board is behind him (away from the boat) after he comes off the wake.

o okay, i understand that dan, thanks.

and the pics i posted are from my first day of trying, my second day was about the same. and my third was completely different. my third day was on saturday and i was letting the board travel like in the sequence, and i was able to keep my elbows locked in.

thanks again to everyone who has given advice. this is something i want really really bad. so im not going to give up until i land it

^^^ great attitude David.
keep at it and keep us posted on progress and the ultimate success

absolutly jeremy, i will