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Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-08-2016, 6:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
I'm not a Benghazi probe supporter.

but are you saying that Clinton isn't a dishonest, shiesty person? I'm not asking as compared to who. Just her, do you trust her and think that she is Presidential?

If you do trust her and think that she will uphold or improve the Office, I can't help but think that you aren't being honest with yourself.

We need a President that is going to be held to a higher standard than the average Joe. Neither side has done that for years. Bill was caught lying under oath. If you and I had done that, we would land in jail. The behavior is unacceptable. When forced to pick the lesser of evils, Clinton is the worst of the entire field.
Her biggest deficit is her inability to "shake it off." What I mean by that is that rather than deflect or deny or change the subject, she complains about her detractors having it out for her. This makes her seem kind of whiny, and that's something everyone is already looking for from her, as a woman. Women need to be iron balls mcginty to make it in politics.

Trump for all his foibles is an absolute MASTER at deflection. He just doesn't get stuck in an attack and he even zooms right past them most of the time.

Personally, I think Hillary is as honest and upstanding as a person running for president can be (which is to say she, like all candidates, is likely to make personal compromises in an effort to get elected). I also think she IS a bit of a victim of a right wing smear campaign (emails and benghazi are so minor, politically). But get enough people to repeat the same stuff about her over and over again, and it starts to stick regardless. And they've been complaining about her for a long time. People don't like her but I'm not even sure they remember why they don't like her.

If you don't think she's been held to a higher standard, then I suggest you watch some of the unedited behghazi hearings. She has publicly stood up to much more personal scrutiny than the "Average Joe." I mean benghazi and the e-mail scandal are just the things that conservatives cling to right now to hate her over. Let's say the FBI totally exonerates her over the e-mail and Gowdy's committee totally clears her of any wrongdoing and commends her for the handling of Benghazi.... will her image change in the eyes of her detractors? NO WAY. They'll just move on to try to find the next thing to bring her down.

That's actually what I really don't like about her as a candidate. She's got too many haters to really bring the country together. Unfortunately, Trump has even more. So no matter who wins in November, there's going to be a significant number of people who will be rooting for their president to trip and fall. Not a good place to be, America.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-08-2016, 6:58 PM Reply   
I voted for Sanders in the primary. Now I have to ask your question not only about Hillary, but also about Trump. Anyone who thinks that an election is not about comparing between candidates needs to rethink. Who you think is the worst of the field is your opinion. But you also thought Nixon wasn't such a bad guy.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-08-2016, 7:06 PM Reply   
didn't say that John.

I don't like either.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-08-2016, 7:50 PM Reply   
Cliff, you may get the chance at a third option...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/07/politi...ate/index.html
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-08-2016, 10:26 PM Reply   
Pisses me off that the "conservatives" took over the republican party and lost all concern for fiscal issues. It's the economy stupid.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-09-2016, 5:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
didn't say that John.
You're right. Went back and reread your post about Nixon. Sorry.
Old     (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       05-09-2016, 7:33 AM Reply   
Running a private email server containing classified information is not a made up story by conservatives. It this was something you did.. What do you think would happen to you? The media and Obama admin has protected her on this story. What was her purpose for running it in the first place?

Benghazi is not what many wanted it to be and was probably overblown.

She has whored out her entire life for political gain and is an absolute POS of a human not fit for the office. You and I would be in prison for her crimes.

That said.. Trump is no better and I don't want him in office either. He is a crazy egomaniac.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-09-2016, 9:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by allzway View Post
Running a private email server containing classified information is not a made up story by conservatives. It this was something you did.. What do you think would happen to you? The media and Obama admin has protected her on this story. What was her purpose for running it in the first place?

Benghazi is not what many wanted it to be and was probably overblown.

She has whored out her entire life for political gain and is an absolute POS of a human not fit for the office. You and I would be in prison for her crimes.

That said.. Trump is no better and I don't want him in office either. He is a crazy egomaniac.
This is the point I was trying to make above.... for those who don't like her, they just don't like her. Benghazi, email. the fact her husband cheated on her, etc etc and whatever is to come in the future will be evidence of her misdeeds.

I don't necessarily agree with this line of reasoning, BUT nobody can deny it exists and it really makes HRC a weak candidate and someone who is unlikely to unite the country behind her. Much more likely we have a continuation of the presidency under siege from a hostile congress.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-09-2016, 9:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by allzway View Post
She has whored out her entire life for political gain and is an absolute POS of a human not fit for the office. You and I would be in prison for her crimes.
Yeah, you could say the same about Goldman Sachs, Chase Bank, and AGI. Who doesn't whore their life out for political gains? Apparently congressmen spend 30%-70% of their work hours on the phone soliciting donations. And nobody really gives a f**k.

You guys keep acting like if we all agree Hillary s**ks then we'll get someone better. Unfortunately, if that were the case we'll get someone worse.

On a crappier note.. Broke two bones in my foot yesterday on an over rotated TS180 behind the boat.
Old     (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       05-09-2016, 10:09 AM Reply   
This is kind of a long video, but it highlights the email trouble. I think they make some light of the issue, but generally cover it pretty well and cover the horrible choice of Hillary like Shawn mentions.

https://youtu.be/q08AplBtsUw

John.. That sounds really crappy. Good luck on the recovery.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-09-2016, 10:15 AM Reply   
Email shmeemail. Not any better or worse than Colin Powell. Actually it could be argued that her use of her own private server was better from a security standpoint that his use of a 3rd party private email address that was on a system outside of his staff's control.

At the end of the day she's just business as usual and isn't any better or worse than most of the male politicians we've been saddled with, she's just a woman and a Clinton and that brings along a special kind of hatred.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-09-2016, 10:28 AM Reply   
Lol @ that video. Gotta love it when nontechnical people start to sound off about things like email servers and try not to sound like morons. Setting up a server in one's home is far from "bizarre and extraordinary" as this guy tries to sensationalize it. There are many reasons to do it, the server was not always located in her home, and there's nothing inherently more or less secure about rolling one's own than going with the state dept who is a serious target. That being said, obviously this is an area where the govt is clearly behind on its standardization and policies and of course the gaps in those will be clarified and hardened. But I honestly laugh at just about every article or video that's released about this because people just don't have a clue what they are talking about. Email is inherently insecure - it's a weak protocol that was built in the 70s when the Internet was a friendly place with just a few folks who all knew each other - and a private server under one's control can be far more secure than a system that isn't.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-09-2016, 11:15 AM Reply   
Redrum redrum
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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-12-2016, 6:28 PM Reply   
last week when different GOP politicians were saying the were NOT going to support Trump I was rolling my eye's but this week things seem to be not so set in stone & the people that were saying they would not support Trump are changing their tune, Intresting!!! I saw another tid bit where they were saying 38% of Sanders supporters said they would NOT vote for Hillary and would in fact vote for Trump if Hillary is the nominee. for sure this has been the most crazy election cycle in years.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-19-2016, 12:05 PM Reply   
Today's sandwich Some how my name came out to be RAM!!!
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Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-19-2016, 6:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
Today's sandwich Some how my name came out to be RAM!!!
Has it ever occurred to you that you don't speak clearly? I mean, crap, if your speaking abilities are anything like your typing, I'm surprised she could even get three letters out of your name...
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-19-2016, 9:39 PM Reply   
Jeremy spoken like a true liberal. That's right in a Libs mind everyone else is the victim. How dare I have such a complicated name to pronounce and spell. These poor downtrodden people being forced to learn such difficult names. That along with my inability after 40+ years speaking English to master It. Thank you for pointing out that it must be my fault. Without your insight I would be lost .
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-19-2016, 10:19 PM Reply   
ha
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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-20-2016, 7:58 AM Reply   
Jeremy; you strike me as the type of person that would be offended by this sighn. And deem it racist! I can totally see you saying /thinking "How dare the government post such a rasist sighn" "They come here as a act of love" your lib mentality and BLM Brethren will be the death of this nation.
LOL
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Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-20-2016, 9:08 AM Reply   
Grant why would that sign be racist? It looks like it's warning you to be careful of white people running across the street?
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-22-2016, 5:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
Jeremy; you strike me as the type of person that would be offended by this sighn. And deem it racist! I can totally see you saying /thinking "How dare the government post such a rasist sighn" "They come here as a act of love" your lib mentality and BLM Brethren will be the death of this nation.
LOL
I'm not "offended" by much Grant. Besides, what exactly about that "sighn" is "rasist"? I live in TN, I see rebel flags and other symbols of oppression being proudly displayed on the bumpers of cars. I mean, do you expect me to go bash their cars or something?

You are truly delusional. You dislike illegal immigrants, yet you support candidate that prosper from the employment of said immigrants. I don't have a problem with addressing illegal immigration, however, I am not naive enough to believe that a "wall" is going to solve the issue. I am also not naive enough to believe that Trump is going to round all of the illegals up and get them out of the country. I suspect should Trump win, you will see little to nothing change with regards to immigration.
Old     (VanillaGorilla)      Join Date: Nov 2015       05-22-2016, 1:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
I'm not "offended" by much Grant. Besides, what exactly about that "sighn" is "rasist"? I live in TN, I see rebel flags and other symbols of oppression being proudly displayed on the bumpers of cars. I mean, do you expect me to go bash their cars or something?

You are truly delusional. You dislike illegal immigrants, yet you support candidate that prosper from the employment of said immigrants. I don't have a problem with addressing illegal immigration, however, I am not naive enough to believe that a "wall" is going to solve the issue. I am also not naive enough to believe that Trump is going to round all of the illegals up and get them out of the country. I suspect should Trump win, you will see little to nothing change with regards to immigration.
Other symbols of oppression being what?
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-22-2016, 3:53 PM Reply   
the confederate flag is a symbol of rebellion and screw "the man". That's the way we felt about it when I was growing up. That's the way a lot of the south views it. It's not a symbol of oppression or racism. That's just liberal and sensitive dribble....
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-23-2016, 3:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
the confederate flag is a symbol of rebellion and screw "the man". That's the way we felt about it when I was growing up. That's the way a lot of the south views it. It's not a symbol of oppression or racism. That's just liberal and sensitive dribble....
Whatever, Cliff. It's not the historical value as the flag most display wasn't the actual flag of the CSA, it's the battle flag of a Northern Va. It's not "liberal dribble" as many right-wingers do not want the flag displayed. Besides, have you researched much when many of the Southern states implemented the Confederate flag into their state flag? Other than Mississippi, all of the other states did it during the Civil Rights movement in the 50 and 60's. The KKK uses it at their rallies. You may have yourself convinced it has nothing to do with racism, but the blatant evidence suggests otherwise.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-23-2016, 7:08 AM Reply   
stop and ask the next guy that you see that is flying the flag. I would bet that he doesn't know the history of the flag, and he doesn't associate it with anything other than rebellion
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-23-2016, 8:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
stop and ask the next guy that you see that is flying the flag. I would bet that he doesn't know the history of the flag, and he doesn't associate it with anything other than rebellion
"Rebellion" against whom?
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-23-2016, 8:39 AM Reply   
I'm not offended by the Confederate flag. What is taught in schools is not the same today as it was 40 years ago. Peoples perception is what is taught today, not the truth.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-23-2016, 9:16 AM Reply   
The truth is it was a war over ideology. The North (Government ) wanted what the South had. Which was resources. Just as it is today the Government used a distraction race (today) and (slavery)back then to divide the country. Then the Government "took" what they wanted more power and resources. When will the American people ever wake up? When the Government has all the power and the people are their slaves that's when. Now tell me how the Government wanted to abolish slavery again. You can't just focus on one single event in history, you have to focus on the trend. The trend is more government power. Now you can tell me how i'm wrong, but history supports my view. What facts do you have? Do you now realize you too have been duped by you own government?
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-23-2016, 9:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
I'm not offended by the Confederate flag. What is taught in schools is not the same today as it was 40 years ago. Peoples perception is what is taught today, not the truth.
Oh the good old days of 40 years ago when racism didn't exist....

"History" is always how people, in the present, explain the past. What is "truth," like interpretations of the bible and the constitution, changes over time.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-23-2016, 9:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
The truth is it was a war over ideology. The North (Government ) wanted what the South had. Which was resources. Just as it is today the Government used a distraction race (today) and (slavery)back then to divide the country. Then the Government "took" what they wanted more power and resources. When will the American people ever wake up? When the Government has all the power and the people are their slaves that's when. Now tell me how the Government wanted to abolish slavery again. You can't just focus on one single event in history, you have to focus on the trend. The trend is more government power. Now you can tell me how i'm wrong, but history supports my view. What facts do you have? Do you now realize you too have been duped by you own government?
I am not debating the merits of the Civil War. I am simply stating fact to why people are offended by the display of the Rebel flag.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-23-2016, 10:25 AM Reply   
"The trend is more government power. Now you can tell me how i'm wrong, but history supports my view."

History also supports the point of view that when the govt had less power, people were slaves without rights.
Old     (whiteflashwatersports1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       05-23-2016, 12:01 PM Reply   
I am a Yankee transplant that lives in the south and always felt like to each his own with the rebel flag. Then one day my 11 year old daughter and her friend were in the back seat of my truck and as we travel down the road I hear her friend say very quietly almost to herself " whoa that is just scary". My daughter asked her what and she said "that truck with the flag, you just see them all over lately and it is scary".

Yes my daughters friend is African American and I have thought differently about it since.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-23-2016, 12:13 PM Reply   
The Rebel flag represents treason, a crushing defeat, and a society that believed it was perfectly ok to enslave people. Not sure how when a state govt is flying the flag that it could be construed as "against the man". Yes, different people see different things in the flag based on their exposure. But there is no question about what it actually represents. And I have no problem with people who are clear about what it really means and find it objectionable for any govt entity to display it.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-23-2016, 12:32 PM Reply   
The American Flag represents unity. Yet Americans today trample it and burn it. Forty years ago racism did exist. However racism is alive and well today. That's how the Government controls the people like puppets.The U.S.A. has declined in every major category while being controlled by the government over the last 35 to 40 years. I guess that proves we were doing it all wrong 40 years ago.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-23-2016, 12:54 PM Reply   
The govt is who you vote for. You have no one to blame but yourself. And I mean that "you" as in the collective whole. It's pretty easy to see why we are declining. We don't protect our economy. We have standards yet ship our money and do business with those countries that don't have standards. We are paying China to compete with us both economically and militarily. Simply because of greed. So all the govt has to do to dupe you is simply tell you what you want to hear. IOW the problem is someone else's fault and the country would be back on the right track if people other than me sacrifice.

People were trampling the American flag 50 years ago protesting the abomination of govt sponsored murder called Vietnam. Trampling the flag was the least of atrocities happening at that time. Yes the govt was controlling people back then too. If the govt decided to draft and ship the mothers and fathers to Vietnam instead of kids fresh out of high school the war wouldn't have lasted long enough for anyone to remember. So yeah the govt controlled society by sending the kids instead. And the voters were just fine with that. Except for the one's trampling the flag, who weren't being duped.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-23-2016, 2:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
The American Flag represents unity. Yet Americans today trample it and burn it. Forty years ago racism did exist. However racism is alive and well today. That's how the Government controls the people like puppets.The U.S.A. has declined in every major category while being controlled by the government over the last 35 to 40 years. I guess that proves we were doing it all wrong 40 years ago.
Is this a lament for the Ford Administration or the Carter Administration?

Flag burning wasn't really legal (i.e. specifically identified as constitutionally protected speech) until 1969. And it was likely happening as much 40 years ago (quite infrequently) as it is today. I guess that proves that we're doing it as wrong now as we were then.

Who are the "they" in "the Government" who exert these powerful levers of control? What was it that Reagan made us all do?
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-23-2016, 7:40 PM Reply   
Bottom line .... Do you think the USA is more respected worldwide now or 40 years ago? Do you think the USA is more independent and financially solvent now or 40 years ago? Blaming it on me the voter is like blaming someone for choosing the wrong line at Walmart. You expect the person at the cash register to do their job, just like you expect the person you elect to do what they promised they would.When will American Citizens take responsibility for their "own" actions?
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-24-2016, 6:05 AM Reply   
Well 40 years ago was basically right after watergate and saigon and right between the two gas crises of the 70s.

1973:


1974:


1975:


1976:


I'd say that the American people were pretty wounded in 1976 in the aftermath of Watergate and losing in Viet Nam. So yeah, bottom line, I DO think the U.S. is more respected now than 40 years ago.

CWB, are you really arguing that the 1970s were the "good old days"?
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-24-2016, 6:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Blaming it on me the voter is like blaming someone for choosing the wrong line at Walmart. ...snip... When will American Citizens take responsibility for their "own" actions?
LOL, apparently never with comments like that.

If there is anything that is making the US less respected around the world, it would have been our invasion of Iraq by Bush and the selection of Trump as a Presidential nominee. Both of which are actions precipitated by those in the Republican party.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-24-2016, 6:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Well 40 years ago was basically right after watergate and saigon and right between the two gas crises of the 70s.

1973:


1974:


1975:


1976:


I'd say that the American people were pretty wounded in 1976 in the aftermath of Watergate and losing in Viet Nam. So yeah, bottom line, I DO think the U.S. is more respected now than 40 years ago.

CWB, are you really arguing that the 1970s were the "good old days"?
Do you think we are better off today as a country both fiscally and less dependent on other countries today or 40 years ago? Just answer truthfully.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-24-2016, 6:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
LOL, apparently never with comments like that.

If there is anything that is making the US less respected around the world, it would have been our invasion of Iraq by Bush and the selection of Trump as a Presidential nominee. Both of which are actions precipitated by those in the Republican party.
So you agree that we are worse off today in regards to worldwide respect? Sounds like it from your response.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-24-2016, 6:55 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
So you agree that we are worse off today in regards to worldwide respect? Sounds like it from your response.
Why does everything you post sound so pointless? If there are reasons to believe that the US is less respected it's important to ask yourself why. Not just assert some unsupportable accusation and expecting it to be significant without any further consideration.

When the executive office transitioned from Bush to Obama I would assert that the respect of the US by the world increased. The response of the Republicans was to declare that America should fail as long as Obama was President in hope that he would only serve one term and turn the office back to Republicans. Again the Republicans damaged the credibility of the US in the eyes of the world.

One would have to wonder why anyone with a modicum of intelligence would vote Republican. Republicans claim Hillary is a liar and therefore unqualified to be President. So they nominate a huge liar as her opponent. They claim Hillary is establishment and beholding to her wealthy contributors. So in response they nominate a wealthy contributor.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-24-2016, 8:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Do you think we are better off today as a country both fiscally and less dependent on other countries today or 40 years ago? Just answer truthfully.
I think my examples of the 1973 and 1979 OPEC embargoes show how dependence on foreign oil was impacting us in the 70s. We still import a lot (but less in raw barrels than we did in the 70s) from the persian gulf, but according to the Energy Information Agency, as a percentage, we imported the least foreign oil in 2015 than we have since 1970. Also remember that we import 4 times as much from those nefarious neighbors to our North than we do from the Saudis. So in that sense, yes, LESS dependent on other countries.

We certainly have a stronger military than we did in the 70s.

If "making America great again" (tm) means turning us back into 1970s America, NO THANKS.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-24-2016, 9:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Why does everything you post sound so pointless? If there are reasons to believe that the US is less respected it's important to ask yourself why. Not just assert some unsupportable accusation and expecting it to be significant without any further consideration.

When the executive office transitioned from Bush to Obama I would assert that the respect of the US by the world increased. The response of the Republicans was to declare that America should fail as long as Obama was President in hope that he would only serve one term and turn the office back to Republicans. Again the Republicans damaged the credibility of the US in the eyes of the world.

One would have to wonder why anyone with a modicum of intelligence would vote Republican. Republicans claim Hillary is a liar and therefore unqualified to be President. So they nominate a huge liar as her opponent. They claim Hillary is establishment and beholding to her wealthy contributors. So in response they nominate a wealthy contributor.
You have hit the nail on the head with this. My wife's side of the family is very religious. I commented that I could never vote for Trump. My mother-in-law said, "You cannot vote for Hillary, she supports abortion". I told her that Trump has a verifiable history of being pro-choice and asked her who should I vote for now. I never got a response.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-24-2016, 7:11 PM Reply   
40 years ago you could buy food grown in the USA. You could buy just about any household product made in the USA. Clothes,bicycles,TV's ,lawn mowers,Car parts, motorcycle parts,telephones and audio equipment. Steel was made in the USA, Cars were made totally in the U.S. with all American parts.This is what made America strong. Soldiers fought for freedom. Today young men and women join the service to get a college education paid for or get another retirement check. I haven't mentioned Obama but you guys bring him up like the race card. You can come up with all the BS you want but any man of sound mind can see we aren't as independent or financially strong as we were 40 years ago. Even though you pointed out some issues we had back then we're worse off now.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-25-2016, 3:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
40 years ago you could buy food grown in the USA. You could buy just about any household product made in the USA. Clothes,bicycles,TV's ,lawn mowers,Car parts, motorcycle parts,telephones and audio equipment. Steel was made in the USA, Cars were made totally in the U.S. with all American parts.This is what made America strong. Soldiers fought for freedom. Today young men and women join the service to get a college education paid for or get another retirement check. I haven't mentioned Obama but you guys bring him up like the race card. You can come up with all the BS you want but any man of sound mind can see we aren't as independent or financially strong as we were 40 years ago. Even though you pointed out some issues we had back then we're worse off now.
As a veteran of the US Navy, I take issue with this statement. You do understand that soldiers were paid "40 years ago". You do understand that the GI Bill has been around since 1944. Yes, I received a college education (though I did have to pay 1,200 for my part of the GI Bill), though I don't "get another retirement check", but to imply that I "didn't fight for freedom" is insulting. Our military puts their ass on the line each day and nothing is less patriotic then for you to say they don't measure up to military members of the past. Sentiments such as yours, make America weak.
Old     (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-25-2016, 5:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Do you think we are better off today as a country both fiscally and less dependent on other countries today or 40 years ago? Just answer truthfully.
Answer: NO
How could Anyone think we are better off fiscally now than 40 years ago? In the 70's the national debt was Less than a trillion dollars And much less of a % of GDP, wages were on an upward progression, and bridges were 40 yrs newer! Now, the debt is approaching 20T, 100% of GDP(Greece comes to mind), bridges are crumbling, And wages have been in decline for 30 years! The economy is growing very slowly today, This, and we haven't even talked about student debt! So, please explain how we are better off now, fiscally, than 40 years ago if you answer Yes to that question.
The 70's were the good ol' days, we just didn't know it!
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-25-2016, 6:05 AM Reply   
Robert where do you live that you can't buy locally grown food? You are definitely right that consumer goods have moved offshore... which is a tough conundrum.... sure we all can see the benefit of those jobs on our soil, but we also all know that labor costs will turn a $900 iphone into a $3000 iphone, and at the bottom we're all greedy mofos. Regarding cars, again, rewind to the 1970s when those cars that were made here were really the biggest pieces of $hit on earth. The complete suckage of american cars 40 years ago is what really drove foreign competition and has in turn made american cars better. I'd rather that our car industry make the best products than erect protectionist policies to prop it up. Also 40 years ago you couldn't buy a Nissan, BMW or Toyota made right here on American soil by American workers with American parts.

40 years ago US car makers hadn't penetrated China either. Now China is a huge market for Ford and GM.

Regarding the military, I'd rather see men and women bettering themselves and becoming contributors to society than not. If that means that they are enticed to serve with the GI bill and then they use that same GI Bill to go earn a degree and then become a productive member of society, what in the world is wrong with that? What's bad about our teachers, police, prosecutors, and politicians having military experience? What a strange criticism.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-25-2016, 7:09 AM Reply   
"but we also all know that labor costs will turn a $900 iphone into a $3000 iphone"

No, we don't all know that. Got any sources? Also, why is that an excuse for exporting our economy?

Lastly, why would anyone want to join the military if there is no benefit in doing so? Yes, I know the obvious answer is going to be to serve the country. But given that nobody really serves the country, it strikes me as manipulative praise intended to get someone else to do what no rational person wants to do.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-25-2016, 7:13 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
The 70's were the good ol' days, we just didn't know it!
Definitely was the good ol' days when it came to finding a job. I had three jobs offers on graduation day and didn't even have to send out a resume.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-25-2016, 7:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
Answer: NO
How could Anyone think we are better off fiscally now than 40 years ago? In the 70's the national debt was Less than a trillion dollars And much less of a % of GDP, wages were on an upward progression, and bridges were 40 yrs newer! Now, the debt is approaching 20T, 100% of GDP(Greece comes to mind), bridges are crumbling, And wages have been in decline for 30 years! The economy is growing very slowly today, This, and we haven't even talked about student debt! So, please explain how we are better off now, fiscally, than 40 years ago if you answer Yes to that question.
The 70's were the good ol' days, we just didn't know it!
Let me take a stab. First off, in the 70's corporate profits were weak and declining. Today, corporate profits are at an all-time high. Secondly, you had high inflation and double-digit interest rates. Thirdly, the comparison to Greece is null since we issue our own currency, Greece does not. We are not beholden to another entity, with regards to our currency. I can go on and on, but I'm limited on time at the moment.

Besides, is "debt" always a bad thing? Think about that for a moment.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-25-2016, 7:16 AM Reply   
....as a Republican, I haven't been over joyed with a politician or candidate for years

But you "intelligent" Democrats have seemed to think that Obama, Reid and Hillary are the bee's knees.

One would have to wonder why anyone that has ever taken a financial risk on a business, hung out their own shingle, and has been responsible for the employment of others........would ever vote democrat
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-25-2016, 8:13 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
....as a Republican, I haven't been over joyed with a politician or candidate for years

But you "intelligent" Democrats have seemed to think that Obama, Reid and Hillary are the bee's knees.

One would have to wonder why anyone that has ever taken a financial risk on a business, hung out their own shingle, and has been responsible for the employment of others........would ever vote democrat
Sounds like you bought the GOP strawmen hook, line, and sinker. Plenty of successful business owners and people "responsible for the employment of others" vote exclusively democrat. By your logic, only business owners that vote GOP are successful. That is mind-blowing to me.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-25-2016, 8:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
"but we also all know that labor costs will turn a $900 iphone into a $3000 iphone"

No, we don't all know that. Got any sources? Also, why is that an excuse for exporting our economy?

Lastly, why would anyone want to join the military if there is no benefit in doing so? Yes, I know the obvious answer is going to be to serve the country. But given that nobody really serves the country, it strikes me as manipulative praise intended to get someone else to do what no rational person wants to do.
http://www.cnet.com/news/if-donald-t...sanely-pricey/

http://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/2...an-iphone-cost
Old     (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-25-2016, 8:28 AM Reply   
Really? Do we have to get into 401k's? How's your 401k Jeremy? Do you really think you can retire? Debt is Not bad Increasing debt is very bad! The bridges in this country are falling apart and you say but corporations are making More money? Good thing they got rid of those pesky unions so their profits can increase! I'm sure those profits stay IN America, right? Even with high inflation, people were still buying houses! Today, with low, low interest rates people still can't buy a house! Double digit interest rates are bad? Only if you are buying, high interest rates are used to slow the economy down, we definitely don't need high interest rates in today's economy! What is your counter example for today's lower wages? Oh yeah thats right, high corporate profits! I don't want you to go on and on, I just want you to give One example of something that is doing better today that is making America better? Crumbling infrastructure, diminishing wages for 30 years, student debt, and rising American debt! I could go on and on, but I have to check my stocks!
Old     (doublemwa)      Join Date: May 2016       05-25-2016, 8:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
You have hit the nail on the head with this. My wife's side of the family is very religious. I commented that I could never vote for Drumpf. My mother-in-law said, "You cannot vote for Hillary, she supports abortion". I told her that Drumpf has a verifiable history of being pro-choice and asked her who should I vote for now. I never got a response.
I hear the same thing from parts of my family. It is like they think the GOP owns Christianity and you can't be liberal, and religious.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-25-2016, 8:55 AM Reply   
OK, $2,000 sounds a bit more realistic. I still think it would be less.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-25-2016, 9:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
But you "intelligent" Democrats have seemed to think that Obama, Reid and Hillary are the bee's knees.
First of all, Reid is from Nevada. Unless you are talking to somebody from Nevada, he's irrelevant. Second, I've seen few people in love with Hillary. But making Trump the GOP nominee might make it look like people are in love with her. Lastly, about the only thing that Obama has done to affect people like yourself is the ACA. And that was just because we've created a monster out of our medical system. Overpriced and out of reach of many Americans. I keep wondering how long it's going to be before Americans finally understand that hospitals are destroying this nation economically. Healthcare needs cost controls soon because govt welfare into the HC industry has created a financial disaster.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-25-2016, 9:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
OK, $2,000 sounds a bit more realistic. I still think it would be less.
The gist of both stories is "more than twice as much." So a $600 "basic" iphone under 2k? Yeah maybe. But the $950 6s plus? doubtful.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-25-2016, 9:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
The gist of both stories is "more than twice as much." So a $600 "basic" iphone under 2k? Yeah maybe. But the $950 6s plus? doubtful.
The second article claims that if the parts cost went from $190 to $600, *that alone* would increase the price by $1400. So I think that my intuition stills trumps that article. If they believe a cost increase of $390 translates into a markup of $1400, then think they are missing out on a few things. Like the market's willingness to bear that much of a markup. There would be competitors willing to fill the void when you are proposing such huge margins.

edit: I reread. They didn't say parts cost alone would drive the price that high. But I also doubt they are factoring the buying resistance to high prices. You really have no idea how the market is going to set the price until it actually happens.

Last edited by fly135; 05-25-2016 at 9:37 AM.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-25-2016, 9:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
Really? Do we have to get into 401k's? How's your 401k Jeremy? Do you really think you can retire? Debt is Not bad Increasing debt is very bad! The bridges in this country are falling apart and you say but corporations are making More money? Good thing they got rid of those pesky unions so their profits can increase! I'm sure those profits stay IN America, right? Even with high inflation, people were still buying houses! Today, with low, low interest rates people still can't buy a house! Double digit interest rates are bad? Only if you are buying, high interest rates are used to slow the economy down, we definitely don't need high interest rates in today's economy! What is your counter example for today's lower wages? Oh yeah thats right, high corporate profits! I don't want you to go on and on, I just want you to give One example of something that is doing better today that is making America better? Crumbling infrastructure, diminishing wages for 30 years, student debt, and rising American debt! I could go on and on, but I have to check my stocks!
Yes, I will be able to retire. Markets are at a record high. I'm not sure why you are dragging 401k's into this argument. High interest rates affect people's and companies' ability to borrow money. If interest rates were raised to double digits, we would likely see the next Great Depression.

A "crumbling infrastructure" shows that politicians are bad at managing money. Of course, as Americans, we want the best military, the best schools, the best bridges, but we balk at the idea of actually having to pay for those things. We want our money spent on the items that line up with our political ideologues.
Old     (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-25-2016, 10:28 AM Reply   
Great! you can retire! Do you have any kids? How do you feel about them making less money than you did for doing the same work? How can you say your children will be better off when their wages are lower? Well, they are better off because interest rates are lower? They are better off because corporations are making record profits? Your children will make less money, but thats OK because we are the richest country in the world!
I am retired with a good pension, but my kids know that they will never be able to retire and they are both mechanical engineers!
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-25-2016, 11:23 AM Reply   
Joe why won't they be able to retire? Save save save, pay yourself first. There's no reason that mech engineers shouldn't be able to save enough for themselves to retire.

Secondly, let's ask ourselves about this relatively new phenomenon (in the history of human existence) of retirement. Is it / should it be a birthright to not work for 30 years and live out your remaining years as a conspicuous consumer (by global standards)? When social security came about, life expectancy and retirement age were about the same. Same with pensions. Is it reasonable to work for state government for 30 years and then collect a pension for another 40?

Last edited by shawndoggy; 05-25-2016 at 11:32 AM.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-25-2016, 1:58 PM Reply   
" Is it / should it be a birthright to not work for 30 years and live out your remaining years as a conspicuous consumer (by global standards)?"

If paying 15% of your salary into SS for 50 years is a birthright, then collecting it back for 30 years in retirement should be as well. On the point about pensions, I don't believe that any govt employee should be entitled to collect a pension at an age less than SS retirement age. Govt pensions should basically use the same age rules as SS.

There is no reason that an engineer shouldn't be able to retire given that they should have both 401k/IRAs and SS to collect when they are at retirement age. It isn't the engineers that should be worried (at least not yet).
Old     (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-25-2016, 2:12 PM Reply   
It sure is reasonable when all the employees have a retirement system that has Nothing to do with the government. Take the Ohio Teachers retirement system, employees put money in each year and the money is almost matched by their employer, so the schools that hire the teachers pretty much match the employees contributions for the year and thats it, neither the school nor the state is responsible for any retirement of the employee after matching the contributions for that year. The Ohio system is solvent 30 yrs out And they can make changes to the system at Any time, in the early 90's they paid for both employees And their spouses health care, now since HC coverage has gone up so much, they mostly just cover the employees, and HC coverage for the employees spouse is very expensive.
Now, I understand there are some State like Illinoise, whose employees are only contributing 3-6% of their income and the government is Paying Most of the employees contributions to retirement, its no wonder that the States are in dire straits, there it would not be reasonable to fund them for 40 years.
My sons grew up in a time where any money they make would lose value do to inflation with low(No) interest rates. So, to retire they know that they will have to save several million dollars for their retirement, and even then, when they retire they will have to cut back on their spending. My only wish is that they support their kids through college, like I have supported them, so their kids have a chance. Most people today will Not be able to save enough in their 200.5k's! I don't think anyone is counting on social security. Also I have instilled in them that they must enjoy what they do and like where they live, because they are going to be doing it for a long time. The retirement age is moving up to 67 and the male life expectancy in the US is only 79, so working 60 years and retiring for 12 years is Not unreasonable!
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-25-2016, 3:03 PM Reply   
I'm definitely counting on SS. I hope to delay collecting until 70 so I can draw at the highest rate. And I hope to stay in good shape and collect for a long time. Nobody should be accepting the sentiment that it won't be there when they retire. If there is anything that the govt should not default on, it's SS. There is simply no good reason for it. But yeah, if the American public is stupid enough to invade *and* rebuild other countries, then I'm not surprised they are stupid enough to acquiesce to the idea that SS won't be there when they retire.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-25-2016, 3:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
My sons grew up in a time where any money they make would lose value do to inflation with low(No) interest rates. So, to retire they know that they will have to save several million dollars for their retirement, and even then, when they retire they will have to cut back on their spending. My only wish is that they support their kids through college, like I have supported them, so their kids have a chance. Most people today will Not be able to save enough in their 200.5k's! I don't think anyone is counting on social security. Also I have instilled in them that they must enjoy what they do and like where they live, because they are going to be doing it for a long time. The retirement age is moving up to 67 and the male life expectancy in the US is only 79, so working 60 years and retiring for 12 years is Not unreasonable!
I don't know how we got started down this path, but here we go. When your sons retire, they don't necessarily have to "save several million dollars" to live comfortably. What I mean is , you don't have to take your retirement savings and transfer them to a savings account and just live off the funds you have accumulated. Why can't they leave the majority of their savings in an account tied to the stock market and let their money continue to grow? Yes, they may not be able to live a luxurious life, but they can still take care of themselves and put their kids through college. If they have 1 million dollars in a retirement account that's earning 10% annually (not unreasonable and probably an underestimate) that gives them 100 grand a year to live off without touching the million. Even if they won't retire for a few decades, 100 grand adjusted for inflation would still be close to 55 grand. At retirement age, your liabilities should be low; no house payment, etc.

As mechanical engineers, both should be making salaries that make what I mentioned a definite reality.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-25-2016, 4:21 PM Reply   
I understand that the way that YOU interpret some of my ideas is mind blowing.
I also understand that healthcare is out of control. I also remember that you were a big advocate of Obama, his cronies and Obamacare......even when a lot of us were saying that they were addressing the wrong issues.

I will never vote democrat because, from what I understand, ideologically, they want : to redistribute wealth, legislate how, when , what people sell and buy....and how much people are to get paid. They want a huge wasteful government that motivates society to become dependent. They want to "punish" the American dream instead of reward it

Republicans, ideologically,want a smaller less intrusive government that allows the market to dictate what how when where and how much

I fear the day when big brother makes me print menus in multiple languages, hire bilingual workers, have multiple bathrooms, dictate what I pay, who (gender and race), what I sell and how ....etc... then take all of my profits because someone else doesn't make enough.

you laugh and might say that government already does this
Yes, some regulations are necessary. The democrats seem to have an endless list. When will it stop. Answer: with them it won't

and NO, I'm not happy with Trump, the GOP, or a lot of things. Based on that, since I have NO control, I'd like the government to run exclusively in the back ground

It blows my mind that some folks can't grasp this.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-25-2016, 5:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
Republicans, ideologically,want a smaller less intrusive government that allows the market to dictate what how when where and how much
I don't believe the GOP wants a "smaller government" anymore than the democrats, at least nothing in their actions seems to suggest otherwise.

They definitely don't want a "less intrusive government". I'll fight you tooth and nail over that claim.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-25-2016, 5:21 PM Reply   
agreed, that's the trouble. but, democrats certainly want a bigger more intrusive governemt
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-25-2016, 5:30 PM Reply   
and
the formula is to live off of 4%. That way, your nest eggs is never touched and it keeps up with inflation

The scenario that you listed should work, except
your income is now fixed, but you have to start paying more
....to eat out because minimum wage has sky rocketed
....to eat out because prices have gone up due to ....mandatory employer provided healthcare, multiple language menus, construction costs due to the need for 4 or more bathrooms
.........................inflated grocery prices because of corn ethenol and other stupid programs

health insurance costs a lot more because of obamacare or just because premiums went up so that we can provide insurance to the less fortunate

property taxes go way up. Have to afford all of the government programs
you live in a boarder state and are over run by immigrants, government takes your land to protect them

you have to pay restitution to several groups

there is a tax for being white

Im not really liking how I've typed this, but you get the point. Government will always want more more more. I will fight this tooth and nail

but might as well spend it, soon, you won't be able to leave it for family to enjoy

Last edited by ord27; 05-25-2016 at 5:34 PM.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-26-2016, 9:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
I don't believe the GOP wants a "smaller government" anymore than the democrats, at least nothing in their actions seems to suggest otherwise.

They definitely don't want a "less intrusive government". I'll fight you tooth and nail over that claim.
Curious to what intrusions besides abortion you are referring too?
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-26-2016, 11:25 PM Reply   
Ram be all up on Drumpf like flies on s**t... oh wait...

Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       05-27-2016, 3:09 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Curious to what intrusions besides abortion you are referring too?
Well, let's see Paul. Gay marriage, religion, telling businesses what they can and can't do, what's taught in school, and there are many more that will probably come to me after I submit this.
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-27-2016, 6:18 AM Reply   
Unfortunately, we live in a country where the majority of voters do not read or think for themselves anymore; as a result. the media "sensationalizes" public debate, which feeds into fear. I'm not trying to defend anyone or take sides, but I would like to think that a reasonable person would not think forcing unisex bathrooms on public schools is a good idea. For example, the transgender bathroom argument is easily solved and the law does not require schools to force to implement unisex bathrooms. How the law is mandated is up to the district . For example, if I were a superintendent, I would install a bathroom of choice, separate from male/female bathrooms-like a family bathroom in most stores--problem solved. However, what is alarming is that the people in power--the media, and lawyers included--put this type of issue in the spotlight when kids are literally starving in this country and suffering abuse but chose to focus on this,
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-27-2016, 7:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker1234 View Post
Unfortunately, we live in a country where the majority of voters do not read or think for themselves anymore; as a result. the media "sensationalizes" public debate, which feeds into fear. I'm not trying to defend anyone or take sides, but I would like to think that a reasonable person would not think forcing unisex bathrooms on public schools is a good idea. For example, the transgender bathroom argument is easily solved and the law does not require schools to force to implement unisex bathrooms. How the law is mandated is up to the district . For example, if I were a superintendent, I would install a bathroom of choice, separate from male/female bathrooms-like a family bathroom in most stores--problem solved. However, what is alarming is that the people in power--the media, and lawyers included--put this type of issue in the spotlight when kids are literally starving in this country and suffering abuse but chose to focus on this,
If the issue were really that men in beards were sneaking into womens rooms (nobody seems to be concerned about f to m trans) wearing dresses so the could watch women poop, wouldn't this already be a problem? I mean what's stopping that from happening now?

how many trans kids will a given school district even have? People seem to think that there's going to be some huge wave of pervy males that are going to start identifying as women to get into the girl's restroom? What about the pervy gay boys and girls who are already in said restroom?

Maybe I'm being too flippant, or maybe I'm just totally oblivious, but I've never seen any overtly sexual behavior in a mens room. And judging from the womens rooms I've had the displeasure of cleaning, most women are way too busy tearing it up in there to be doing anything that could be remotely considered "sexy."
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas       05-27-2016, 11:45 AM Reply   
Still think you're gonna get that wall? Yikes.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/27/news...ity/index.html
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-27-2016, 10:15 PM Reply   
Wes: you mak Ram laugh! thank you
Old     (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       05-28-2016, 7:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
If the issue were really that men in beards were sneaking into womens rooms (nobody seems to be concerned about f to m trans) wearing dresses so the could watch women poop, wouldn't this already be a problem? I mean what's stopping that from happening now?

how many trans kids will a given school district even have? People seem to think that there's going to be some huge wave of pervy males that are going to start identifying as women to get into the girl's restroom? What about the pervy gay boys and girls who are already in said restroom?

Maybe I'm being too flippant, or maybe I'm just totally oblivious, but I've never seen any overtly sexual behavior in a mens room. And judging from the womens rooms I've had the displeasure of cleaning, most women are way too busy tearing it up in there to be doing anything that could be remotely considered "sexy."
It goes far beyond bathrooms, it also includes locker room and showering facilities. Hotel rooms on out of town field trips, and in college, dorm rooms. A girl can show up for her freshman year of college and end up with a 50 year old male room mate who says he feels like a female. there is no surgery or certain appearance requirement they have to meet. Just have to say they feel like a girl. Same goes for the girls, a student can identify as boy in science class, change their mind and identify as a girl in gym class, and the become a boy again for algebra the next period. The order is crazy.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-28-2016, 9:51 AM Reply   
David, you are absolutely right

I'm amazed that other people don't get it.

I wonder if supporters of this nonsense even have an answer to this

I have asked those in my life, but never get a response.

Does this mean that there is a line that even they won't cross? If so, isn't that like saying hey....we won't discriminate against you until a certain point

This type of thing is why I could never vote democrat (no matter how bad the republican might be)

The media has run with this and made it an issue, yet they refuse to carry the thought all of the way through
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