New Boat Wake Surf Pics

Just thought I'd throw up a few pics from our inaugural wakesurfing outing last night. Had a great time and didn't have much weight at all in the boat.
04 X2 with about 400lbs starboard, center sack filled and 200 in the bow.

Is that one of those new invisible life jackets? Where can I pick one up? The sheriffs department or the coroners office?.

Jackets are not required(sheriff's office) everywhere michale....

...and are far as the coroner.....

Love the internet police....

Good pics Scott... Looks like fun!

in oregon you don't have to wear a vest when riding.

i don't always wear a vest with surfing

Yeah, you know, I actually tried to delete the post after I thought about the amount of remarks it was going to get about not wearing a vest, but it had been 10 minutes already and couldn't. We don't typically wear vests when surfing, but do 100% of the time while wakeboarding. I live on a private ski lake that doesn't have any types of government authority on it... yet. I suppose if someone died of CO2 poisoning someone might become interested. I'll get some better pics tonight, we're going to move some weight around.

E.J. (deuce) so now I am the internet police?. If it saves 1 life or our sport then so be it. There was a time when there was no seat belt law but %85 of the people still wore it. I knew Anthony Farr (the Anthony law) and still play poker with his father Mike. Granted, Anthony died from "teak surfing" but he wasn't wearing a vest. Would he have lived?. we will never know. Does it take people dying in your state to make it a law?. Wake surfing is taking a lot of heat right now and I would hate to loose it because someone died not wearing a vest. Then again natures way of thinning the herd. M.

I do find it interesting that you start by saying "if it saves 1 life..." and finish by "natures way..."
Wasn't trying to jeopardize this great sport, and I don't take Michale's comments as anything but concern for the great sport.

Hey Scott, I'm not going to bust your chops on the wearing or not wearing a PFD. In CA, I do believe, it's a requirement and all sanctioning bodies require one in contests so it's moot for me. Plus I've been whacked on the head enough by board's, after a fall, to know that it's possible to lose consciousness from that impact (good thing I'm hard headed! ) and simply won't wakesurf without a PFD. I would be interested in understanding why you would wear a vest 100% of the time wakeboarding but choose not to while wakesurfing. Is the perception that there is less risk of injury or the boat is closer to the rider and as such, less risk of drowning? If you've never seen anyone drown, you'd be amazed how quickly it happens, especially if you're thinking they just went under water to cool off or the like.

Ed G and I were discussing this issue, in an unrelated thread, regarding the newest issue of Wakesurfing magazine. By virtue of the pictures in that magazine, even an ad by Tige, it's obvious the magazine and at least one manufacturer are promoting surfing without a PFD and yet also in that magazine they state in the safety considerations to "Always wear a PFD".
So it's not just Scott here, when a manufacturer like Tige is tossing out advertising showing someone without a PFD, there is a strong perception that it's acceptable behavior.

Is the general consensus that there is little risk of drowning while wakesurfing?

Scott, the comment was meant for e.j.as to say that some people you just cant reach. It is a love for the sport as well as love for human life and how easy they both can be taken away. I saw 2 kids at Folsom last year teak surfing so I stopped and talked to them. Some people just don't think or know. I may voice my opinion (isn't that 1 of the things a public forum is for) but I don't force my opinions or beliefs on anyone unless they are in my boat. If they ride they wear a vest. Besides, the vests out now are comfortable. Its not like I am asking them wear one of those orange vests. Unfortunately it took someone I know dying to make me see it. I am glad to see that you at least have an open mind about wearing a vest .m

(Message edited by michale on April 25, 2006)

I have no beef with you Michale, just pointing out an off handed contradiction within your post, and I don't feel like your post was meant to be malicious. I think the reason why we don't always wear pfds is because we all grew up surfing in the ocean without life vests, we're not doing inverts and we're probably all dumb. I'm not trying to legitimize our actions, Florida is infamous for letting it's residents self police themselves (no helmet law either)

Scott, its all good. I didn't mean to come off all high and mighty. Sometimes I type before I think. I don't see it being much longer before all states require vests especially due to the fact that the Coast Guard recommends it. NO HELMET LAW.
don't get me going.

I hear ya man. I rode bikes for about 7 years when helmets were mandatory and I had two friends die within 6 months and neither was their fault... I sold my last bike two weeks later, haven't been back on one since.

Hey, don't go blaming it on us Florida residents!

I'm a firm believer in vests and helmets.

sweet jesus. I'm not blaming anyone but myself and this poor bastard that happened to be riding behind my boat last night.

There's no way you could misconstrue my post to read it that I'm blaming Florida or it's residents.

I know. I'm just joking with you!

e

Their actually is a helmet law in Florida.

It's based on insurance coverage. If you carry x amount of coverage, you don't have to wear a helmet. If you don't carry x amount, you are required to wear one.

You can get ticketed for not wearing a helmet and not having the proper coverage.

There is also a Florida law that state one cannot fart in a public building after 6:00 PM.

Neither law is strictly enforced.

"It's based on insurance coverage. If you carry x amount of coverage, you don't have to wear a helmet. If you don't carry x amount, you are required to wear one." that's one for the books. How is insurance going to keep you alive. That's right, its Florida. Why don't they base it on the motorcycle riders I.Q. or better yet on how many teeth they have. A low count for either means they don't need a helmet. Another one of natures way of thinning the herd. . Just kidding, M.

Sorry Ed, guess I just got some overly sensitive from defending my idiocy.

Doesn't the problem here really lie with the stupid people that think because the see a pic or an ad of someone doing something then it means it is acceptable behavior???

Come on now, you can find a pic of just about anything if you look hard enough.

If someone chooses to ride without a PFD, that is their choice (as long as local law allows it). If they make that choice because they saw a Tige ad or a pic on some message board of someone riding without a vest then they have bigger issues they need to deal with.

I don’t believe it’s a matter of intelligence. If display advertising was strictly a matter of IQ, you wouldn’t see it as a multi-billion dollar industry. We would look at the images and simply turn our emotions off. “Nope, no sexy chick is going to make me buy THAT lawnmower” Let’s be honest, who amongst us doesn’t recognize the golden arches. We also all know that the food products offered at such establishments are intrinsically bad for our health, yet fast food restaurants are one of the largest industries in the US. It doesn’t take much to show that children fall in love with Ronald McD, and happy meals…and that we, as adults, find some motivation in the association with good looking active men and women buying heart attacks on a bun. If it didn’t work, if there wasn’t some underlying reason that display advertising wormed it’s way past our logic, these companies wouldn’t spend billions upon billions of dollars on it.

Now, I am NOT trying to say that we couldn’t use a TON more personal responsibility in our society. I am 100% for that. However, if we look at athlete endorsements in general, kids are the most vulnerable. I can remember wanting to be just like Willie Mays as a young boy. It is why congress stopped allowing athletes to endorse tobacco products when first starting to curtail cigarettes due to health risks...there is a bunch of evidence to support this notion. Plus, again, if it didn't work, companies wouldn't use them.

In the Tige ad, minors who idolize Eric Ruck, not stupid people, but minor children who don’t have a fully developed sense of right and wrong will see their idol and want to emulate his behavior.

We’ve seen time and again normal and intelligent people do stupid things. The parents of the children or young adults that died teak dragging were mostly uniformed, not idiots. If these “ignorant” folks see a major company advertising a young wakeboard star without a PFD and the kids are all saying: “but Erik wakesurfs without a vest” it’s really not a big leap to letting little “Mikey” do it too…and as with teak dragging, sometimes with tragic results.

Part of the reason we have laws that ban teak dragging is because NORMAL FOLKS honestly were unaware of the risks of CO poisoning.

Personally I believe that journalists have a specific responsibility to the public. And I do believe that Wakesurfing Magazine WANTS to be responsible to its readership, they specifically state that “Always wear a PFD” it’s just that the overriding “visual” message in the magazine is “don’t bother”.

I also don’t believe that it’s simply a matter of – oh well, doesn’t affect me. We have seen this with the furor surrounding Teak Dragging. The confusion almost eliminated wakesurfing. It was the proactive intervention of a few folks that prevented wakesurfing from being banned in California. When there is genuine confusion and the "perceived" safety of the public is at risk, the legislature WILL step in; especially, if it is as the result of the death of a child.

Plus, lets be honest. Shred Stixx ad’s have riders wearing PFD’s. Inland Surfer’s Ad’s have riders wearing PFD’s. Wakeboarding magazine stopped printing pictures of riders WITHOUT PFD’s after the death of a wakeboarder a few years ago. They felt a sense of social responsibility and acted accordingly. I think this is what Wakesurfing Magazine WANTS to do, but just doesn’t have a fully developed portfolio.

So, I agree with you, Manzo that personal responsibility would be the best way to prevent many tragedies, I also believe that journalist AND large businesses have a responsibility to act that way. I disagree that the core of this issue is stupidity. Ignorance, yes, but not stupidity.

Jeff, I do agree with your above post.

I guess that the general sheep herd mentality of the large majority of society just boggles my mind. The fact that people are so easily influenced by the media is sickening, BUT they are...

I agree that companies and publications need to be responsible but in the end it all comes back around to the individual or the parent of the individual and proper education.

You are correct, ignorance plays a major role. I also think that ignorance runs rampant in the boating world. Why? Because all that you need in order to own and use a boat is good enough credit to buy one. The lack of driver requirements, general boating safety course requirements etc. plays a major role in the insane things that we all see on the water on a regular basis.

I am not trying to come off as the boating expert, but I have been behind the boat for 27 years now and was taught boating etiquite sp? and safety from very responsible boaters. It really does scare me some of the stuff that I see on the water, espically on the holiday weekends.

I will say though that boating without knowldege of boating is putting your friends and families lives at risk and that is nothing more than stupid.

no lj ... is called THINNING THE HERD... the long proccess of natural proggression ...nice pics anyway ;)

Back in the office....looks like this thread had a little action yesterday.

My point michale, was your post was condescending. What it seemed to say to me was this, You are breaking the law(sheriff's department) and/or you are going to die(coroner). There were no emoticons to get any feeling from your post, so I took it as negative.

Since we do not know if it is against the law to surf where those pictures were taken, assuming that the person is breaking the law is a bit pompous.

I have yet to hear of, or observe, someone "going down"/"passing out" from CO2 poisoning while wake surfing.

You say that you would be happy to save just one life. Your message would be received better using language like, this is how I feel about surfing without a vest and this is why.(see first paragraph of Jeff Walker's first post)

In the end, I just find it amusing every time someone posts a photo of a rider without a vest, there is a number of people who will jump in with outrage about their ignorance. Who are we to police these people, even if they are breaking the law?

E.J."Who are we to police these people, even if they are breaking the law?" If you read down farther you will see why. If someone dies wake surfing then it could become illegal. It doesn't matter if they were wearing a vest or not. Wake surfing was real dam close to becoming illegal because of teak surfing deaths. If it wasn't for people like Jeff and other organizations then it would have become illegal. I, we are trying to protect the sport that we all love by making comments to people when we see them doing something stupid that could/ will put our sport at jeopardy. Some people just don't think. Have you never pointed it out to someone when they did something stupid?. So the way I see it , yes we do need to police ourselves.

"There were no emoticons to get any feeling from your post, so I took it as negative". At the time I typed it it was meant to be negative. It was meant to get someone's attention and make them think. After reading some of Scott's comments It sounds to me like it worked. M.

Effective communication isn't an easy process for folks.

For Michale when there is a loss of life that so personally effected Michale's life, advocay for prevention is the natural direction. Many great institutions, such as MADD are the result.

If I may offer MY opinion on the concept of "policing", as has been termed in this thread...or as I would prefer to call it:Advocacy for our sport, or as Michale seeks, the safeguarding of life by using PFD's.

In particular with wakesurfing, or most any newly popular sport, there are folks that dislike it. Some of the negative things I've heard are that our wakes erode shorelines, the larger one sided wakes make it hard for others to enjoy shared water spaces and, of course, the whole confusion over CO poisoning and teak dragging.

I think that many folks have their own agendas and there is a tendency to see new and different activities as "bad" in some sense. Those of us familiar with the early days of snowboarding will remember being relegated to certain specific runs in resorts (back of the bus mentality). When we are deeply involved in a sport or activity, it's not always easy to see how we impact others, or how our singular actions can impact the collective being. I offer up the changes in airport security as the result that a handful of folks can have on an entire populous.

There is also a tendency for folks to group by association. Everyone knows of the strife caused by racial bigotry. I am 100% certain that everyone reading this has heard or seen someone prejudged NOT because of their character but because of their skin color, religious beliefs, etc. This is human nature and we as wakesurfers need to be aware that we are in the minority. We engage in an activity which CAN and does have adverse affects on other watersports enthusiasts.

In particular, if a wakesurfer is knowingly breaking a law, we ALL run the risk of being seen in this group. I am willing to bet that the majority of folks in this forum dislike PWC riders...sees them as unsafe and risking the safety of riders by their behavior. I have no idea how many ride dangerously close to riders, or spin 360's in front of a moving boat, but as I have experienced, it only takes 1 to blast at 50mph between your boat and a fallen rider to find them ALL suspect. In California, laws have been enacted to keep PWC riders from getting too close to other watercraft.

This very same "association" is what almost lead to wakesurfing being banned in California. To the uninformed, wakesurfing and teak surfing were one and the same. It was only by the determined efforts of a handful of folks that prevented our sport from being legislated out of existence.

It is MUCH easier to be proactive in preventing accidents, or a negative association of wakesurfers being outlaws who have no regard for the safety of participants or the laws that govern other water sports enthusiasts. As the saying goes: an ounce of prevention...

I would not advocate chasing folks down and chastising their behavior, but certainly I would advocate encouraging respecting all laws and wakesurfing safely. In particular the issue with this magazine being discussed, I am of the belief that advertisers won't support a magazine that doesn't consistently advocate safe practices. That would be problematic for our sport that so needs further exposure.

The actions of a few, should not impact the rest of us negatively, but the reality is that it does. Until that reality changes, I will continue to urge advocacy for our sport, which will always include safe operation and participation AND the obeying of all laws and regulations.

I think I need a bigger soapbox, huh?

Again michale, you are calling what Scott did stupid. What exactly makes you think you are the know all on this and have any right to call his actions "stupid"? Christ it is exactly stuff like that that compels me to respond to these threads.

If he is following local laws, he is perfectly in his right to surf without a vest. Your calling his behavior stupid is again, pompous in my opinion. Regardless of your personal experiences, which was teak surfing. The two activities are SO different, comparing them is ignorant.

Someone find me any research that shows that there has been 1 death from surfing(not teak surfing) due to CO2 poisoning.

Again....Jeff your message is MUCH better received.

I just don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to wear a vest in the first place. The little extra mobility that it gives you doesn't really do anything and it's not like we're having to duckdive 10' closeouts so what's the point?

and boards have been known to hit the occasional head or two.

Who knows why Sean, but as long as it is legal...it is a personal choice.

I don't go up to smokers on the street and call them stupid. Nor do I see a post of someone smoking on this site and go off on a tirade of how they are killing themselves and others around them, wasting their money and causing healthcare costs to go through the roof.

E.J., twice now you mentioned CO2 poisoning. a death while wake surfing will most likely be caused by drowning. Could be CO2, could be hitting your head or a number of other causes. Bottom line, if you wear a vest you will not drown. I don't claim to be the "know all on this" but the Coast Guard is. Do a search.
twice now you mentioned Jeff's post and you are speaking highly of them so I assume you are reading it. He is saying the same thing I am. The only thing different is that he is being politically correct and sugar coating it for you.

Its obvious that I am not the only one that thinks riding without a vest is stupid. You said so yourself I am not the only one. It doesn't matter if its legal or not. Hell, even Scott calls his actions stupid. i.e.: "Sorry Ed, guess I just got some overly sensitive from defending my idiocy". If you feel its not stupid to be riding without a vest then you are part of a very small minority.

If you have the time then do a poll. How many people feel that a vest should be worn. Take away the over protective people like me and the votes from the 14 year olds that want to be outlaws. My guess is that the majority of people would vote that vests are a necessary part of our sport. If you or anyone else choose not to wear a vest then that's your prerogative as long as it doesn't affect me and the sport I love. SOMEONE DYING WAKE SURFING WILL AFFECT MY SPORT and if your waiting for me to sugar coat it for you, that will never happen. M.

If you need me to be politically correct then here is my disclaimer
All content contained herein are the statements and views, etc., of the person who prepared this post, and in no way, manner, event, or circumstance should any of the following, or any combination thereof, be held accountable:

Your mother, father, or linear relatives responsible for your education or lack thereof; none of your teachers in any learning institution in which you acquired the ability to read; any optometrist who did or did not or may or may not supply you with corrective lens in order to read this; the manufacturer of your computer and all peripherals, whether or not they are overpriced and/or up-to-date; the manufacturer and or supplier of any software installed on said computer (okay, you can try Microsoft, if it's good enough for the DOJ); the DOJ (as long as we're on the subject); Janet Reno, Janet Jackson or Janet Lennon (for the baby boomers); the company upon whose server this is; the company which provides you with internet service; the framers of the Constitution; the Supremes who interpret the Constitution; and the makers of silly putty.

According to the Warren Commission, Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

I don't need you to be politically correct michale. I don't want or need your advice. I just think that if you actually want to have an impact, like you say....you would be better served to make your points without coming off like a pompous know it all.

Even your last post, the politically correct crap and then the disclaimer..... Classic stuff.

My point was never to condone or chastise surfing without a vest, it was to point out that your initial post, as well as some of your following posts were pompous. Maybe you are just self important and it comes out in your writing....or maybe you just have difficulty expressing an opinion without harsh overtones.

Whatever, no big deal...... You are trying to police riders and it appears I am policing posts.

As far as vests, Jeff may be able to tell us how many of the people competing at a high level of wake surfing are wearing CGA vests?

Oh my...yeah, once a disagrement becomes personal, it loses credibility.

Most of the sanctioning bodies have a rule similar to the WWA's:

"A. All contestants must wear a U.S. Coast Guard (or appropriate country’s standards) approved vest or a vest that will absolutely float a contestant who is unconscious. A "wetsuit vest" must have a locking device in addition to a zipper closure."

The American Wakesurf Association also has this same requirement for sanctioned events. Accordingly, I would concluded that ALL contestants in ALL wakesurfing competitions are wearing some type of approved PFD.

E.J. (deuce) My posts are my opinion and if you don't like them then simply don't read them. I do however fail to understand why you made this personal and insist on insulting me. You don't know me or my personality other then what you have read on a few of my posts. Do you have the ability to read people from a few typed words? Who are you to sit there all high and mighty and tell my that I cant call his actions stupid ?.What next, I don't have the period in the right place or the comma goes goes before the explanation point?. Who is playing cop now. Is it possible for you to have a debate without getting personal?. If not then you might feel more at home on the other site where every debate becomes personal and I guess this debate is over. M.

You are trying to police riders and it appears I am policing posts. Which is why I stated that in my last post.

I did not intend to make this personal. I apologize if I offended. It is a message board and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I assume your comments, and continued banter with me, rubbed me wrong and decided to respond.

I post on both sites equally....

(edit) You are also welcome to a pull if ever in the area. Vests are required.

(Message edited by Deuce on April 26, 2006)

Thanks for the P.M.. Same here in Nor Cal. M.

OK less web surf, more wake surf.
PFD very safe
No PFD very dumb
Web comunicating very tuff.
Phone call easier,(tone of voice, comprehension, flexion, etc).
Bob Marley, very good at placing thing in layman terms.
Ride on friends!!!!!

I think I'm changing my stance on this one. While I think lifevests are a definitely good idea if it's not required at a particular lake then what's the big deal that someone else isn't wearing a lifevest. Sure, it might be considered dumb but there isn't a person alive that hasn't taken a stupid unneeded risk at some point. Wakesurfing will be illegalized from oversized boat wakes long before it will from a drowning death from lack of a lifevest.

its CO and not CO2 which you drink in pubsoda all the time and is used in dry ice!!! CO is poisonous.

Every sport has its risks. I skydive, repel, back country snowboard and snowmobile. Came close to 2 avalanches, so does that make me stupid for riding sleds or board? So I have even wakesurfed without a vest and it was against the law. But I bet about everyone breaks the law once in a while. Traffic laws are what I am hinting most to. So with every sport there is a risk and I take that risk knowing it and that is my right as a human.. What I am trying to say is that one has to live a little and the only person at risk is himself. That is if your not jeperdizing anyone else. Life would not be fun without risks. Just my 2 cents. Hope everyone can come to a positive conclusion on this.. But I do agree that pfd's are much safer and I wear one 99% of the time for safty and the added flotation that my fat a@@ lacks...

i grew up surfin the murf bar when it was workin(harbourmouth) in santa cruz.prolly one of the most tech waves on the planet..ask anyone who knows..then mostly the lane..sometimes 3rd reef when she was workin...long story short,if i'm still here after that up bringing(without a vest) i'll prolly be ok wakesurfin..thats what i used to think..then carbonmonoxide entered the picture.today u can still find me riden wit no vest every now and again,but all the new people who get on my boat ride with a vest.its non negotiable

why do all of these thread's turn into the BS life jacket thread...who wear's and who doesn't. If you do or don't wear a life vest really makes no Fing difference to me so why do we always have to go on about it.

michale, i was gonna get pissed until i realized you had given the makers of silly putty a disclaimer. they are after all, the true culprits here.

Then why aren't surfers in Hawaii wearing life jackets on the pipeline ? 35 foot waves.. 7 foot long board Hummm.... going to call the govenor of Hawaii right now....

they do wear life jackets, just like our competition lifejackets

That's a pretty clean looking goofy wake you got there Taylor, congrats!

Too bad a the preachy off topic trolls had to show up!