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Join Date: Aug 2006
09-27-2007, 7:34 PM
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09-27-2007, 8:15 PM
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Hey Johnny, you could be right...the glue line did make it fairly easy to measure left and right off the centerline. Matt, that is looking sweet. You'll have to report back on how the fin worked. Also, I like your shaping stands!
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Join Date: Aug 2006
09-27-2007, 8:53 PM
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Thanks. The shaping stands cost me about 8 dollars to make. I got all of the plans off of Swaylocks.com. Besides this site, it's probably the only other site I visit on a frequent basis. I just weighed the board tonight about ten minutes ago. It's 4lb 6 oz. That fin is anchored on there too. We want to go ride tomorrow but my son has got his football homecoming ceremony tomorrow night and his game on Saturday. We've had great weather too. Upper 80's water around 84. The sound has been fairly glassy. Anyway, when I'm finished sanding it tomorrow night I'll post the final pics.
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Join Date: Jul 2005
09-27-2007, 10:25 PM
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why the massive fin? jeff when you gonna make me a board?
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Join Date: Aug 2006
09-28-2007, 4:38 AM
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The reason behind the massive fin is purely experimental. I know nothing about fin technology. We've been playing around with various fin set ups on my fish and haven't been able to tell a significant difference in drive or looseness etc.... So one night I was reading a wakeboarding mag and looking at the tiny little wakeboard I bought my 5 year old and it had these long foils on the rails. That made me start thinking. Then the very next day I was at one of our local surf shops and they had this surftech epoxy board made by Eaton that had incorporated a tail kind of like that fin right down the back end of the board. Me and my buddy then said, lets make a fin like that. This is the first board I've shaped since 1991. I have no idea how this will perform. I've even thought about drilling some holes in the fin for water flow. I've seen fins for surfboards like that. Purpose? Who knows. But, I bet that massive fin will not make that much of a difference in the way the board rides or how the rider rides.
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09-28-2007, 4:40 AM
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Sean, I have - it's pink, rectangular and has the coolest doorknob. Seriously now. You have a pretty good idea what you'd like in a board, what would it take for you to build your own? I'd be interested in understanding what prevents folks from undertaking such a project.
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Join Date: Aug 2006
09-28-2007, 4:42 AM
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Plus, at its highest point it's only 3 inches.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
09-28-2007, 7:18 AM
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Nice Matt! How long is the board? Looking forward to hearing how it rides. Jeff, from the angle of the most recent pic, it looks almost like no rocker on the top of the board. The rocker outline looks visible on the bottom edge, but maybe it is just the camera angle?
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Join Date: Jul 2005
09-28-2007, 9:39 AM
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jeff i would love to build my own but i dont have the supplies needed to do so and the wife would kill kill if i bought more crap to start another hobby! im suppose to be looking for a job ill leave the surf board shaping to the pros, aka you
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09-28-2007, 8:01 PM
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I hear you Sean. The cost to build just one is probably prohibitive. The cost to build five...is crazy! Matt S, I think it's just the angle on the photo. Two more from tonight. It's down to 20 oz, I an am just about done with the shaping part. Matt E, do you still have the link to the racks over at Swaylocks? Lots of great building info over there, huh?
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Join Date: Feb 2006
09-29-2007, 6:02 AM
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Hey Jeff, I've built what appear to be the same racks as Matt E. http://www.surfersteve.com/stands.htm Check out the rest of the site. Some decent info on building a basic surfboard for as cheap as possible.
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Join Date: Aug 2006
09-29-2007, 10:13 AM
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surfersteve.com is an excellent resource. That's where I got my plans. The only problem with my racks is glassing. You need to have a narrow T-Bar. I'm going to make some glassing racks tonight out of PVC pipe. I bought 2 inch PVC pipe. Going to make the racks about waist maybe stomach high for me. Anyway, here is a link from swaylocks that I had saved. http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=181333;page=1;sb =post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=14601746
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Join Date: Aug 2006
09-29-2007, 10:15 AM
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Jeff is that eps like the styrofoam from an ice chest?
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Join Date: Apr 2007
09-29-2007, 10:32 PM
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does anybody have an old electric plainer they want to hook me up with? so that i can get in on this shaping buis.?
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09-30-2007, 6:42 AM
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Hey Matt E, Without sounding too nerdy Here is my understanding of the foam. Polystrrene comes in two "flavors", extruded and expanded. Extruded is referred to as XPS and expanded as EPS. Styrofoam is a Dow Chemical trade name for XPS foam. However, most folks refer to anything white and foamy as Styrofoam. In most instances, like the foam found in coolers, that is actually EPS not XPS and so technically shouldn't be referred to as Styro. I hope to use that one day on an unsuspecting individual: "Jeff, would you pass me a styrofoam cup". I will then respond: "I'm sorry, all I have are these expanded polystyrene cups, will they do?" OK OK OK it was funny in my head. So to answer you question directly Matt, no. However, yes...it is the same type of foam as used in a cooler. Johnny, I'm sure I've got an old planer you can have...but hold off for a week or so. I think that this EPS can be more easily shaped with a Hotwire. I've got one that is supposed to show up this week. Then I won't have all those stupid beads of foam everywhere. I'll let you know if that's what you should be looking for, instead of a planer.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
09-30-2007, 12:00 PM
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Johnny - a planer is nice, but you can do the main rough shaping with #12 sandpaper and then #50. See the link to www.surfersteve.com for details. It is a lot of work, but a lot cheaper. Either way, you still have the joy of cleaning up foam beads as Jeff mentions.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
09-30-2007, 12:46 PM
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haha yea i know, iv been working with shapers on my js model, and it is for sure messy. but for the time being im going to be working with old pu blanks, that i get from stripping old crusty boards. thats the only way i can aford it. but it will let me experiment on the shapes and contours alot more. and jeff, where did you get a hot wire? i was going to make one out of some pvc pipe, safty wire, and a car batery!
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Join Date: May 2006
09-30-2007, 4:21 PM
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Hay Jonny, cracked up reading about you stripping old stix. Made my arms itch just reading about it. That's what we did when we were kids when a big guy would give us a old board so we could build one of those "short boards", Gotta go put on the Calamine now.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
09-30-2007, 4:53 PM
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haha yea! hey man you got to do what you got to do. find the materials and make things the cheap way. ill be sure to wear coveralls when i do it. haha
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09-30-2007, 5:35 PM
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Jerry, I got the same reaction, had to go wash my arms off! Johnny, this is a link to a pretty easy to build hot wire foam cutter; http://www.vatsaas.org/rtv/construction/hotwirecutter.aspx
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Join Date: Aug 2006
09-30-2007, 6:09 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
09-30-2007, 6:30 PM
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I have been humbled
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09-30-2007, 8:25 PM
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Wow - that was quite the project! The EPS billet that I intend to hotwire is running me about $17 a block, delivered. That's pretty cheap, if it works.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
09-30-2007, 8:31 PM
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Where are you getting the EPS from? I want to try all my hand at all of this fun stuff! I found EPS blanks but they are $48 plus shipping. Is the billet, just that, a large chunk of EPS in a rectangle or square form?
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Join Date: Apr 2007
09-30-2007, 8:37 PM
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wait so you just ordered a fat block of eps jeff? haha yea i was gunna make a hot wire just like that one!
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10-01-2007, 4:32 AM
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Yeah Timmy! It's just a huge rectangle. I've got the invoice down at my office, I'll post the URL when I get there this morning. Now these aren't "blanks" it's just foam. It's a big a$$ hunk of foam and you have to cut the rocker and outline into it. Also, if you want a stringer down the middle you'd have to cut the shape in half and glue it back. If I am not mistaken this place has a minimum order if you want the billet delivered. So the shipping is "free" but I think I had to order $250 worth. There is a factory up in the Dixon, CA area and if you pick it up, I think these folks will sell it for around 20-25 depending upon the variables (length, width, thickness, density, etc). Actually Johnny I ordered 15 blocks 15 is NOT that many!!!!! That looks like a simple cutting bow and ot had PVC like you mentioned. I ordered a cutting bow from the folks at Tekoa, just because I was afraid I'd electrocute myself in the manufacture of the stupid thing. The billet is supposed to arrive today, so I'll be sure to get photos. It's funny, they show up at my office and my poor secretary has to deal with some 8 foot tall cardboard box in the lobby of the office. To be honest, I think half the reason I have this stuff delivered to my office is just for the reaction I get from my employees. If you can imagine the dialog: Secretary "What's in THIS box?" Me: "Foam" Secretary: "A big box of foam?" Me: "yes...well 15 blocks of foam" Secretary: "what are you...more surfboards? Does Judy know you've ordered 15 blocks of foam?!" "Me: "not exactly, I like to surprize her. I've heard that women like surprizes."
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Join Date: Apr 2007
10-01-2007, 6:25 AM
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ROFL!!
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Join Date: May 2005
10-01-2007, 6:51 AM
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Judy has given up being surprised by anything you do with surfboards.
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10-01-2007, 8:01 AM
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Dennis, I don't think that she's GIVEN UP on being surprised, it's just that NOTHING does at this point. Judy is a sweetheart. Timmy!, Universal Foam Products. It seems that Universal Packaging, Universal Poly and Universal Foam are all related. http://www.univfoam.com/ They blow the foam upon order and have a dimensional vairance of +/- 1/16". All the blocks I ordered had length and width dimensions of 60" x 24". I ordered some different thickness, 6" down to 1". Density ranges from 2 down to 1 pound.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
10-01-2007, 10:17 AM
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How many boards can you make out of what you ordered? Just curious... I think for my first time playing around with this I will just order a real blank and then go from there.
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10-01-2007, 10:45 AM
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I'm going to sacrifice one of the blocks for testing. So that one will go away. I believe that on the 6" thick blocks I can make 2, surf'ish style boards...possibly 3 if I make the boards more skim'ish with no pronounced rocker. So...potentially, I can make a maximum of 17 to 20 boards out of that order.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
10-01-2007, 2:23 PM
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sick so im not the only one. i was going to go to home depot and just buy a foam block from there, make a rocker template, and hotwire the rockers out, but my problem was i had no shaping tools. now im slowly aquiring more "junk" to add to my dads garage, so ill go about making some boards soon. im sure he will be happy when i come home for the weekend, make a mess in his garage and leave before he can complain! haha
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-02-2007, 8:45 AM
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I recently picked up some foam sheets "billets" from a local foam source. EPS (white) and XPS (pink). here's a few templates cut from roofing felt outlining the template on the foam rough shape
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10-02-2007, 8:55 AM
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I think your local foam source is Home Depot Matt, what are you going to do for rocker? Shape it in, or bend it during lamination? Give us the spec's LOA, width, etc. I like the outline.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-02-2007, 9:35 AM
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Hey Jeff I wish I could get thicker foam at Home Depot! (don't we all!) The thickest Lowes and HD carry around here is 3/4" I actually found a guy nearby who does foam for RC planes and lately, he's doing a ton of wings for the military UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles). I had him hotwire these at 2in. He probably gets his blocks from univfoam or similar. He has a pretty cool hotwire setup that rolls slowly down a track to cut the blocks. For the rocker - I'll shape most of it in. I don't really like too much so it will probably be similar to a Yellow Loogey - just turned up a little at the nose. This one is 4'7" and 22" wide (at this point) I'm going to experiment with some concave ideas on the bottom...
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Join Date: Aug 2006
10-02-2007, 3:50 PM
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If it's that 1 pound stuff, you may need to put a vent in it to prevent it from "gassing". I heard or read that was a major issue with the pink xps stuff as well as the 1 pound eps stuff.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-03-2007, 2:21 PM
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a few more pics as the shape is coming together laying out the almost not existent nose rocker
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-03-2007, 2:23 PM
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deck view
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10-03-2007, 4:37 PM
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It's coming along nicely! I like the taper on the deck towards the rails.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
10-05-2007, 3:26 PM
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Lookin good Matt!
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10-11-2007, 8:11 PM
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The blank is all sealed now. In my research, 1 and 1.5 pound denisty EPS foam needs to be sealed prior to lamination. 2# + EPS doesn't require this sealing step. In my first "don't call me late for dinner, lightest board east west challenge" I sealed the blank with a mixture of epoxy and microballoons. My notes show that this almost doubled the weight of my blank. Not that it was a great deal of weight, but still a 50% increase was disconcerting. Another method of sealing is with ultra light spackling compound. That's what I've done with this project and, it appears that the weight increase was limited to .1 oz. The purpose of the sealing is to prevent the epoxy used in the lamination from being sucked too deep into the foam. Hopefully, the spackling compound will do it's job.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-11-2007, 9:38 PM
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Looks good Jeff - nice and smooth. I actually just bought some spackling last night for my EPS blank. It is 2#, but I want to fill in the little pukas and also I ended up gluing on another 2in piece to the nose to finish off the nose rocker - i'd like to make it look clean where I've sanded into the gorilla glue. Also, I decided to postpone the glassing of the pink XPS blank for now as I began to get nervous that things could go wrong with delams, etc. (maybe the delay in the resin delivery was a sign?) Anyway, I should be spackling tomorrow and hopefully start glassing tomorrow night and/or Sat. I also just got some bamboo fiberglass from a company called "greenlight surf supply" and am excited to try it out. It is enviro-friendly and supposed have similar strength to 6oz glass. They recommend one layer on bottom and two on top. They also sell bamboo board to make glass on fins, so that should be fun. Here's a pic of the board just after planing down the excess foam and before smoothing everything.
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Join Date: Aug 2006
10-12-2007, 5:50 AM
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I almost ordered that bamboo stuff from greenlight as well. We've had too much real surf here over the last 2 weeks so my shaping has taken a back seat. I may glass number two tonight.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-12-2007, 6:38 AM
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Matt - great looking paipo! Did you shape that one? I've been thinking about trying that fin design as well. I first saw it on Roy Stewart's "Power Boards" - big 10+ logs he builds in NZ -- he says that he's able to achieve much higher speeds on his longboards because of the lift the fin provides. I wonder how loose it is for wakesurfing or if it tracks too straight. Seems like it would be loose, but maybe not? Do you have access to ride it?
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Join Date: Aug 2006
10-12-2007, 8:04 AM
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No I didn't shape that. I saw that fin design first on Swaylocks and then on a paipo board online. It would definitely be an interesting ride. I'd like to try one on one of my longboards.
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Join Date: Aug 2006
10-12-2007, 8:11 AM
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Here's a link to some paipo's. Be interested to see how some of these ride. http://rodndtube.com/paipo/forum/viewtopic.php?t=440
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10-12-2007, 2:50 PM
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Matt S, Nice shape, be sure to let us know about the bamboo glass. I guess those folks sell an entire kit, where you glue up the stringer and two halves. I thought you were seriously brave undertaking the XPS board. I'm sure you've seen this before: http://www.foamez.com/pdfs/Epoxy%20EPS%20Construction%20Guide.pdf Shulers foam was being used by Patagonia and others, this is an extruded polystyrene (XPS). I was the Dow distributor for a similar product about 12 years ago. The problem we had then, and the problem that continues to plague it today, is delamination. This is caused by the fact that a significant amount of blowing agent is trapped in the cells during production. Blowing agent expands under heat. That's what makes it work. 95% of the blowing agent in EPS foam is lost during the pre-expansion process. 95% of what's left is lost in the molding or press cycle. With urethane the chemicals are being changed during the polymerization process and you end up with only CO2 left in the cells. But with XPS the cells are left filled with blowing agent gases. When these cells are damaged, and the gas released is then heated, a delamination or bubble forms under the glass. Also these foams are copolymerized with polyethylene which NOTHING sticks to. This makes the problem even worse. This problem has existed with XPS since Bob Simmons first used it in the 50's. Also the new Solomon blank is based on an XPS foam so don't go holding your breath on that one either. While it's true that these foams are superior as far as being water tight, today I'll go with EDRO EPS.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-12-2007, 5:43 PM
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Yeah Jeff, I'd read that, but then I was on surfersteve's site, and he swears by it, saying that XPS doesn't delam like everyone says it does.... so we'll see, maybe I'll glass the "pro pink" up at some point just to see how it does... i found another type of XPS called IXPS that is supposed to have the great shaping qualities of XPS, without the problems... haven't ordered any yet, but i'd like to try it out at some point...
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-13-2007, 11:05 AM
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here's a few shots of the EPS version coming together. it is spackled and ready to glass. i decided to try something different on this board and do what has been coined as an "inset concave". i basically planed 1/10 in from the back of the board going forward towards the front, and then with hand tools, sanded a double concave from the tail comes together flat in a V-ish outline about 12 in past the center point. the theory is that the flat area will still allow the board to stay loose on the front end, while the back will provide the drive and speed for "showing fin" (aerials). my wife is due with our 2nd anytime now, so hopefully i'll get it glassed before...
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10-14-2007, 7:59 AM
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Interesting concave, you'll have to keep us posted on the way it rides, how much lift it generates. Before I forget (again) source of EVA foam for traction: http://www.northshoreinc.com
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10-14-2007, 3:08 PM
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I am STILL waiting on foam. Remarkably enough it looks like the second shipment was lost by UPS too. I'll know for sure on Monday. So...while we wait for the foam to arrive, we tested out our vacuum system and rocker table
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Join Date: Apr 2007
10-14-2007, 3:47 PM
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Well, how did it work?
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10-14-2007, 4:25 PM
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10-14-2007, 4:27 PM
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Mostly we wanted to make sure the vacuum switch was working and that we had it adjusted correctly. The bagging tube works better than the film, but we were able to pull 20 inches of mercury, so we have it working...NOW, if I can only get some foam!
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Join Date: Aug 2006
10-15-2007, 10:47 AM
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I took my board out yesterday. It is definitely loose. However, it required alot of work to stay in the pocket. It was much easier to hold the rope and carve off the lips cutbacks and such. I think it is just too narrow. I'll put some pics up when I get home tonight. I do have an idea of what I want to try though.
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Join Date: May 2005
10-15-2007, 6:08 PM
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Must be getting pretty crowded in there now?
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10-15-2007, 8:01 PM
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It's cozy! But I will need a place to let the epoxy cure in February!
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10-15-2007, 8:05 PM
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Throw away those planers boys and girls, invest in a hotwire. No dust, virtually no noise (slight hum), and clean up is as easy as picking up a HUGE chunk of foam...which means no upsetting the better half!!! No puka's at all, none of the foam being ripped out in strategic spots. Ar least for rough cutting, this is a GEM!
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Join Date: Feb 2005
10-15-2007, 8:07 PM
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So, no box of foam and dust to ship to Ohio?
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10-15-2007, 8:08 PM
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and the bow. It's hard to see, but the hotwire extends between to two arms and the power from the "thermal generator" is connected via the two red wires and alligator clips.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
10-15-2007, 8:08 PM
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Transformer
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10-15-2007, 8:12 PM
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Ed, I thought that was a cartoon character! Plus "Thermal Generator" sounds so much more ccccccooooooooooooollllllllll I think that with appropriate templates aligned on either side of the foam, made from masonite so that it won't melt, clean shaped blanks can be cut in a few minutes. Using the "THERMAL GENERATOR"
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10-15-2007, 8:13 PM
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Ed, I can take the off cuts and toss them in a blender - maybe not dust, but crumbs If the dust is REALLY that important, I can break out the sander and go at it. you know...did I just spoil your Christmas Present?
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Join Date: Feb 2005
10-15-2007, 8:15 PM
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mmm... How about Thermatron? Actually we have several Thermatrons at work. Can you make an arc with the wire?
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10-15-2007, 8:34 PM
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An arc? like an arc welder? No. The wire is stretched pretty tight on the bow for straight cuts. I've seen tools that allow the cutting element (wire/blade'ish) to be shaped.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
10-16-2007, 4:59 AM
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No, an arc like part of a circle.
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10-16-2007, 5:12 AM
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Hey Petr, I know there are a bunch of folks doing that sort of construction. It all stems from Burger's concepts. Hey Ed, with the wire hot it will cut any shape and in any dimension. You can spell your name, make little rods...really whatever you want this thing will melt the EPS. Maybe THAT is the best part. You can melt stuff!
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Join Date: Aug 2005
10-16-2007, 6:01 AM
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I created frame hotwire cutter simply from wooden sticks and for power I try using ordinary 12V car battery charger. Some recomend using up to 24V. something like this one http://www.rcfogli.cz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=37 You can buy several types of special hotwire or try use guitar string G. But work safe with electricity and for ideal cut dont overheat wire so use some form of resistant regulator.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
10-16-2007, 7:06 AM
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wow jeff -- I just looked at the link above. do you read czech? anyway, looks like you and james are going to have some great fun with that hotwire cutter. I'm going to have to make me one. my wife has been really patient with all the foam everywhere on our back deck. she calls it "santa's workshop" due to all the foam everywhere looking like snow on everything.
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10-16-2007, 7:26 AM
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No, I can barely read English, let alone Czech. Petr!!!!! I am not bilingual, as yourself. Anything in English, sir? My wife is a saint also, but my dust has been blowing in to the pool...looks sort of like a whipped topping on a drink at Starbucks. I was thinking about this. It would take some development, but once you had all your forms cut, you could shape just about anything with them. Take a single bottom concave for example. With the board upside down, and some type of "U"'ish shaped guides at either end, such that a line drawn between them represented your concave - then cut it in one pass. It's a little difficult for me to get away from the traditional methods of thinking - planer and surfoam. If I think about it, there isn't any reason you can't use a hotwire to completely shape the board. No sanding! The surface is clean and smooth. It'll be fun to experiment.
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10-16-2007, 7:27 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
10-16-2007, 7:36 AM
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Formerly I thought that you ordered huge block of chunk EPS foam like this one Jeff The most amazing thing with EPS block is that you simply and perfectly design foil of rocker in computer (I do it in vector software Adobe Illustrator), print it out, cut 2 cutting templates, pin them on the sides of chunk and hotwire clean blank with perfect rocker and than you only shape rails and cocncaves and you are done. No more pain with hand shaping. (Message edited by hawaj on October 16, 2007)
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10-16-2007, 8:12 AM
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I love the huge slab! I know that one method that folks use for bagging is to save the off cut an then put the whole thing inside a tube and pull a vacuum. I think that I'll do that with my 3" 2# foam. I concur with the ease of shaping the blank. Getting the rocker in with basically two passes of the wire saves a ton of work and using the templates minimizes the chance for "shaping" a twist in the blank. However, Petr, why not shape the rails with a small handheld hotwire? I would think any bottom conture can be cut using templates at either end, too. The shaping just uses different tools. The BIGGEST advantage, IMO, with the hotwire and EPS is no pukas. When you make the cut, that part is finished smooth!
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10-16-2007, 8:22 AM
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I'm not known for my artistic abilities, but this is a quick representation of how to cut the concave in the bottom of a board.
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