New Toy - Winter Project(s)

I just got this new little contraption. Very excited about it! Any guesses what it is / does?

Hopefully it will give some speed and cleanliness to my winter projects...

hot wire

salty - you are correct --
picked it up at www.hotwirefoamfactory.com

not cheap - but i'm not really electrically inclined, nor really had the desire to build my own - but if anyone would like to DIY... there are lots of sites that tell you how to build one.

anyway... fired her up last night and made a few cuts using some masonite templates as an outline for the rocker. i'll post up a few pics.

first outline on the foam

first cut wasn't the best... but came out alright - nothing a little sanding won't cure...




two halves ready

leaning the foam against something (in this case the side of my house) and letting gravity and the wire do the work is much better than what i did on my first attempt (which was stand over the foam and pull it along gently).



done for the night -- two pairs of blank halves ready to glue up



love my planer, but really gotta love the hotwire.

A man after my own heart! That looks like a couple of huge blocks of foam! Is that one measurement 10 feet long?

yes jeff - two 10ft blocks - figured that would be enough to keep me busy for the winter....

also, wanted to make sure i had enough foam to build a noserider... (just got the fin)

wheres the stringer, and what do you use to glue it together?

me love that huge block of FOAM very much

Where did you get your hotwire cutter?

Nevermind. I saw the link up higher.

Your building a foam board without a stringer?

How goes Joe and 8ball

For these smaller boards, there is no WOOD stringer, but there are a couple of other ways to provide strength..
I got my inspiration from swaylocks. You'll see there are tons of guys building EPS/epoxy boards without stringers and they are using them at some fairly heavy ocean breaks with great success (and not breaking the board). For a PU/PE boards though, I would definitely put a wood stringer...

Jeff - if I recall the Marko foam blanks you ordered just a had glue or epoxy stringer, correct? Of course these are a very popular blank used by many shapers in the surf industry...

Anyway, for this type of construction there are a couple of different options for getting the two halves however -- each of these in essence becomes a "stringer" of sorts:

1. Epoxy the two halves together with 5min epoxy
2. Epoxy the two halves together with a strip of fiberglass for extra strength.
3. Glue the two halves together (with Gorilla Glue or other PU glue)
4. PVC stringer glued in with epoxy (PVC is really expensive)
5... many other options

I'll be doing a couple different ways just to have my own experience with some of these methods and report back.

Hey Matt,

Yep...the Marko's I got were 1.7# density EPS with just a glue line. As Johnny was pointing out they do the glue line for ease in manufacture and for a CL for shaping. From what I can tell it looks like they used a PU glue of some kind.

This board is 2.3# stringerless EPS with 6 bottom and 6 top with patches. I'm looking forward to what you learn, Matt.

smedman, Its hard to see but the other board you build, has no stringer? right? Thats what i was referring to and it looked like you were about to do it again.

Smedman show me one pro surfer using a stringers EPS board?

Sorry stringerless EPS board?

From my understanding, most boards under 6 feet do not really need a stringer if they're glassed heavy enough. Cruise over to swaylocks.com and do some research on stringer versus stringerless boards. I think a couple of years ago CJ Hobgood rode a Rusty board that the stringer tapered to nothing in the tail increasing flex in the tail. Most skimboards that I've seen have no stringer. The board I finished has a stringer. I glassed it with epoxy (6x6 on top and 6 oz on bottom). That board is super strong. My next stick will be stringerless. Mainly because I have a source for EPS foam with an optical eye to cut the desired shape I want. We just gotta hook up.

smedman, if you epoxy the two halves together with a strip of fiberglass for extra strength, do you only use one layer of cloth between them?

The board he rode still had a stringer and a skim board isn't a surf board completely different construction. smedman is building a surf style board not using surftech tuflite or something similar. Your not going to see a manufacture produce a EPS board with just glass and no stringer, why because of the liability of getting someone hurt and thats the only reason I bring this up, be careful!

The board he rode still had a stringer and a skim board isn't a surf board completely different construction. smedman is building a surf style board not using surftech tuflite or something similar. Your not going to see a manufacture mass produce a EPS board with just glass and no stringer, why because of the liability of getting someone hurt and thats the only reason I bring this up, be careful!

All the Placebo Sleigh models are stringer less we broke about 4 boards on the demo tour. They are pretty strong and we were putting a lot stress to them they broke but didn't break apart. There will be more boards without stringers as new materials work there way to board building. I'm impressed with with everyone's project's this show's the progression in the sport the pushes it onto next level

Again not the same thing Placebo has a flexlite shell very strong same construction as a surftech with tuflite shell. smedman is just using EPS foam with glass thats it!! No flexlite, tuflite or composite construction, no fibers laminated in layers Like the walker above for stength. Nothing, just foam and glass. Thats not progression.

The walker board above has alot more going on than a single block of EPS and glass. Jeff, maybe you could get Mike Walker to give us all alittle insight on the construction process? I bet he will not give you that info! His layering the board between fibers of some type my guess to give it some strength and flex, but to compare his board to what smedman is doing is way off. If you don't have a traditional stringer you still need something to hold it to together like the flexlite, tuflite, composites, balsa (Jeff's boards) either vertical like a stringer or horizontal with a shell, fibers, wood, etc.

Nope, just 2.3# EPS and glass, unless Mike did something and didn't tell us about it.

I did notice the weight wasn't much different than our poopee's with stringers...this board wasn't sealed, so possibly it has more epoxy in the surface, but other than that there isn't anything significant going on with the construction of that board, that I am aware of.

Hey Joe,

Greg Loehr suggests one layer about 6-8 inches wide.

1. Just put one half of the blank on it's side, brush/roll some epoxy on one side, lay down the glass, saturate and pull off excess resin, epoxy other half, and clamp together or use weights, etc.

2. When it gels (but before it full cures), cut off the excess down to the foam.

3. Shape as normal

4. repeat as often as possible

Anyway, a lot of guys are doing them with 5 min epoxy from HD/Lowes as well without the glass.

how goes it 8ball,

i'm not quite sure where to begin... not quite sure if you are trying to have some good debate here or trolling or just trying to stir the pot a bit... (it does get a little slow on here sometimes) your profile gives no indication of who you are, where you are located, etc., and as a fairly new member of the forum here you seem to be getting off on the wrong foot... (or maybe i'm just being a little sensitive) but no worries - i'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt here. anyway, help us all out and give us a few more clues about you...

to answer your question about whether i'm doing it again - yes and no... the stringerless board i posted up is doing fine - we've been riding the heck out of it and everyone who's tried it has nothing but good things to say. it seems to be super strong (haven't seen a ding, pressure or otherwise yet), and it is definitely lighter than anything available "commercially" - so light and buoyant that after i fall, while i'm waiting for the wifey to come around and pick me up - i entertain myself by pushing the board vertically in the water as deep as i can and letting go. dang that thing flies! (its a good workout for me to swim after it and try to keep the arms in shape for those rare surf trips). anyway it is a true "stringerless" in that yes it was just foam and fiberglass.

as for these blocks of foam, i'm going to try a few different things to see how they go. for most, a glue line is considered a stringer, but maybe for some it isn't - i don't care, i'm just having fun building and trying things out.

the marko foam blanks that i referred to are a fairly popular brand -- foamez stocks them and from what i could tell at ASR they seemed to be moving some serious product. check them out.

Greg Loehr (some consider the father of Epoxy/EPS construction) has been making stringerless EPS for many many years - way before Clark closed down. A lot of guys were doing them back in the 60's and 70's as well with just a glue line. There is still talk about how some of those boards were "magic" boards. Also, a lot of guys are doing them now -- do some google searches and you will see. Just to get you started, here's one shaped for a pro surfer Joe Curren -- check it out: http://theswallowtailsociety.blogspot.com/2007/10/stringerless-quad-fish-for-joe-curren.html

Keep in mind that on a stringerless board, the fiberglass overlaps on the rails act as the "stringer" giving strength, but also flex - which some argue actually makes the board more agile and responsive than one with a traditional stringer. for example have you ever ridden a "longboard style" skateboard - like a sector 9? some of the boards are made with a stiff flat construction (the Cloud9 series) and others (see the "cosmic" series) are made to have some serious flex abilities. (for example the middle is about an inch or so higher than the nose and tail. then when i put my 200lbs on it, the middle is probably about 1inch from the ground). anyhoo - i much prefer the cosmic "super flexy" style when carving down hills - much more "squirelly", but much much more responsive. by throwing my weight around on it, i can get it to do just about anything i'd like it to do -- not so with the flat stiff boards...

Sure, flexlite, tuflite, etc. are "progression" as you say. I completely agree. but isn't testing the limits of what is possible with just glass and next generation epoxy also considered "progression"? seeing how different types of construction affects ride, response, acceleration, etc. all seems like progression to me...

As for the walker board, i don't think there is much more to it than foam and fiberglass - not sure about any "layers".... jeff didn't mention anything and he's usually very thorough, but i may be corrected on that.

thanks Jeff for the clarification on the WP stringerless... glad to know i'm not the only guy trying some basic stuff....

smedman, be careful and i hope you don't get someone hurt. Jeff ask mike more about your walker board, why only team riders have one, why is that? who i am doesn't matter, if i told you i have been shaping boards for 20 yrs and have seen and done it all in the industry, you would still disagree with me. Anyway, not here to debate or stir the pot. The boards not going to break right away, it will start cracking were your feet are placed, then you are someone riding it will put a foot through it. Thats all I'm going to say! no need to text back because I don't have the time are want to spend the time debating, let time be your asker!

I originally ordered - 1.5# stringerless, I think, and Marko wouldn't manufacture it, I got the 1.7# - but that was like pulling teeth from the folks at Foamez. No doubt they were concerned about the breakage issue.

We did shape this 1.7# stringerless and like 8ball projected, we broke it. It only had a 4/4 glassing schedule and no hotcoat, so not sure how "comparative" this one is. From a shaping standpoint it sucked, because it was so floppy...you'd push the tool down and the blank would flex. I kept thinking - the rails are a guess - push down 1/2 inch to get a 1/4 cut. It also rode like crap because it flexed like a wet noodle. You couldn't really set the rail, it would just flex off. I still have one of those blanks left but wasn't sure what I was going to do with it after the first test.

My compsands seem to aleviate this when the skins and high density rails get attached - the 1# foam is still like air, but the skin and rails kept it together during shaping and "so far" the ride seems to be ok.

The WP board above is pressure denting, not something that I am accustomed to on an epoxy board, so it might fail too, without the stringer to hold it together - something to be mindful of.

Not sure if I cleared anything up or not

I had to go check, I'm glad that I did, I forgot to scavange the boxes from this!

This board failed on both the top and bottom. The first picture is of the bottom:




This picture is of the top:

It's hard to see, but the bottom failure started at the rail and went toward the center, and it started on the wake side of the board, just in front of the rear foot.

The top failure started or was more pronounced close to the centerline and radiated out towards the rail, but was right at the front foot.

Glass is about 1/2 the strength in compression as tension, so...I'm not sure what this means - I have no idea which failure was first.

In all fairness, we have also busted poopee boards with stringers and compsand #1, I screwed up the lap and got water under the skin and that failed at the rail. Also, I think that my 1.7# expereiment is significantly different than what Matt is doing...Matt you are using a higher density EPS and a heavier glass, plus a greater number of layers. I think my work was irresponsibly light.

Jeff -
The pics of the failure above are on which board? 1# EPS with only one coat of glass on each side?

Jeff, I wouldn't say irresponsible, you’re trying to find out where the boundary is. You’re also experimenting. You have to expect a few failures before finding success or concluding there's no room for improvement.

It might be irresponsible for Mike Walker to offer a board like your 1.7# without warning. But for you to spend your own time and resources to experiment and have fun – that’s time and money well spent.

JL
- can you let us know the glassing schedule on the JS pro models that broke? I'm guessing 1x4oz on bottom and maybe 2x4oz on top? 2# eps?

Just curious.

Hey Matt,

The pictures of the failure are of the 1.7# Marko blank. It had 1 layer of 4oz e-galss using system 3 epoxy on each side. No hotcoat. That board had a pretty substantial concave and I remember it having a max thickness of 1.5 inch'ish. At the location of the failures, it is about 1 inch'ish. That is the one thing that is consistent - both failures are at about the 1" thick mark...in between the failures, it's thicker.

Thanks Ed, you're an ok guy for a wood lover. I'd agree that I want to find the "boundaries" quickly so that I know what that limit is ASAP.

8ball

If you have been "shaping boards for 20 years and seen and done it all in the industry" why don't you impart some of your wisdom in helpful way instead of coming on a forum as a newbie and making flippant comments and criticism? That would be welcomed... tell us a little more about your background and experience. we welcome learning from each other here.

I'm totally open to ideas and suggestions as I think everyone on here who is making boards for our own personal use -- Jeff, Petr, Matt E, Ed S,
and others... we are experimenting and having a blast doing it. if we break a few boards, so be it... i think jeff has probably broke more boards than some pro surfers...


Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled programming....

I got pretty close to finishing up a 5'3" shape for the wife that is based off of my original model and will try to get some pics posted up later today of the close to final shape.

Next up -
- a skatish type shape
- a noserider. (hopefully) the noserider will have a stringer
- a fish shape to take to CA for the holidays for surfing at T-street, Churches, Lowers... (i'll probably put a wood stringer in that one as well)

smedman hit us up when you get down to socal we can show you some local spots we will be back from the north shore on dec 18 our trip was pushed back we won't leave socal till the 28th

i have seen smeds board and can attest to its deck patch thickness.even though i'm all about the stringer(for the flex mostley then liability).i felt like it was laid on there plenty good and would be just fine,especially for his first attempt.he made a board then rode it in a contest,thats huge.most guys first attemts wined up being a table top somewhere outa sight.props neighbor

JL first off you suck. You have to rub it in that you'll be back from the North Shore on December 18. To be young and without responsibilities again. Have fun. We're headed to Oahu next summer for a seminar. Maybe some south shore swell will present itself. Here is my homebreak on Thanksgiving Day...



Smedman, I agree with you. I only tried it to see if I could do it. I don't know if I will continue to do it. It's a horrible mess in my garage. My wife has made me make the back of our garage a board room. But anyway, it would be nice if a real shaper (someone who makes a living at it) would come on here and discuss the shaping of a board and design concepts instead of criticising those of us who have tried making a board. I believe alot of it is about money. That board that you built could be one less board that they sold. Meaning less money in their pocket. I understand that concept. Even after I shaped my first board I still bought a Shred Stixx Ja Mako. There is no comparison in quality compared to the one I shaped. When I have time, I search through mounds and mounds of info at swaylocks.com on board design as well as materials. Anyway, I'm still going to have a blank cut on 2 lb eps when I get a chance. Anyway, my first board will definitely be a prop in my garage.

I had an employee once, sweet young girl, but she had incredible difficulty communicating. When she wanted to gripe about something - say the temperature in the office, it would take her a week to work up to it and then it would come out like this:

"I hate you! You are the worst person on earth!! OH and by the way, we need to turn the thermostat down by 5 degrees" I think that 8ball makes a valid point...and I know that Matt agrees - just be sure that your materials and methods are adequate to withstand the intended use. You can get 5 pound density EPS and build a tugboat

Matt, I resemble that comment! It's so true, I've broken more boards than I can honestly remember...I hate to admit it, but I've actually broken stuff during construction!!! I out a planer on one and it snapped. Do NOT open container of acetone close to an unfinished EPS blank. I have to laugh - my very first shaping exercise was when I was - maybe 10...I had one of those styro pool toys shaped like a surfboard. I taped off two bands and sprayed painted them from a rattle can. Came back a hour later to what looked like some monster movie flesh eating disaster. I think I cried. Over the years...it's only gotten worse.

Matt - that is a nice looking thanksgiving day wave! For sure that is something to "give thanks" about! Nice peeler... hard to judge the size though...

Waterdog - thanks for the props. That means a lot - especially since you have been making boards for many years.

JL - i'll pm you and get your info. would be great to ride some of the San Diego breaks (that's where you are, right) - When I lived in OC I pretty much stuck to the south co breaks, and made it down to DMJs a few times... would be great to ride with you guys. I've been going to the gym doing all manner of upper body work to get in paddling shape.

Jeff - if i can make it by that way, would be great to see your board graveyard sometime....

You bet Matt, you've got me cell - give me a buzz, would love to have you out to the "boneyard"

Sorry to rub it about our trip this a working trip so photos & video are the order of the day & might be doing some wakesurfing over there . We will be posting on our site what happens on this trip. Smedman bring a 4/3& booties, South oc creek breaks that time of year also trestles if the surf is small, we can get you behind the winch and get some big air . Jeff 1st I heard about those JS models breaking but the ones i have shot were light with alot of pop. Doing airs is the hardest on the board so they will wear out after alot of landings ,now to find the right combo to make them last longer thats the problem with performance it has trade offs

That's the position I'm usually in except the board is in a totally different place. Like 10 feet above me......

JL - I used to surf trestles here and there, salt creek on a rare occasion... in more recent years, church seems to be my and my buddies' place of choice as it is harder to get to and doesn't seem to crowd up quite as much... there is a "shortcut" to get down there - i'll have to tell you about it later. at any rate, i'm with Matt E -- very familiar with that position in the shot above...

a few more shots of the 5'2" coming together - still rough, but it is getting close.


it may not look it with all the green, but it's been 40s since Thanksgiving! whereas it was 89 the day before... hello winter!!

some of you may be interested/dismayed/amused, but in the interest of full disclosure on this -- i glued it together with elmer's glue... but sure takes a lot longer to dry than epoxy!

Nice.

Hey Smedman,
I used to surf Trestles also. Only difference was that it wasn't legal and the Marines would take your board if it made it to shore. Sometimes they would shoot over your head just for fun. Times have changed.

Dennis -- that sounds scary!
I'll have to tell you about some incidents a Churches sometime. No bullets, but those little ladies in their golf carts can be quite vicious sometimes...