Help On Ballast System

Guys, I need your help. I do not want to do a custom ballast system (no drilling in hull). I am sure there a few of you that have rigged up some sort of plumbing system to fill/empty 2 v-drive fat sacs located in the rear lockers. Pic of my boat is in profile if that helps. I am not mechanically challenged, just need some suggestions to get me started. Thanks a bunch!!

i see no other way to get them full, outside of tossing a pump in the lake.

sack up. measure 3 times. drill once. you'll be SO glad you did. nothing like dropping the boat in, heading across the lake and being ready to ride when you get there.

Thanks Nacho for the vote of confidence. I realize I will be tossing a pump in the lake. What I am looking for is pics/advice to rig up a hose system that marries the 2 sacs into one hose so all I will have to do is attach the pump to fill and reverse the pump to empty. Sounds logical - has anyone else done it?

Back in the old'n days, I rigged up a set of sacs in a '98 205 (not X-Star). I also did not want holes, so I tapped into the water hose that feeds the cooling system (just before the pump).

Went to Home Depot, picked up a plastic Tee, some hose clamps, etc.

From the Tee, I put in a lawn siphon valve, so that the engine wouldn't pick up air, and then attached a pump to fill the sacs.

Had to have the engine idling in order to keep the pump primed, but worked ok.

To empty, another pump pushed water into another Tee connected to the outgoing water lines (between the Ex. manifolds).

Sorry, no pics available since this boat was traded in to get my current old X-Star.

Dave

skylon makes a "double hitter" or something like that. reversible pumps would be jabsco ballast puppy.

c4 no ballast?

or a plastic 'T' as dave eluded to

I used the current ballast system on my boat and ran Tees off from that. I have no new thru hull fiitings.

you could try to use a bilge drain hole. On my boat there is center drain hole with a an NPT fitting.

make sure that you issolate the system with a brass valve as close to the new intake as possible. this way IF something fails your not screwed!

I thought about putting a tee into the cooling system line but decided against it due to the fact while under way the scooper might take up too much water and fill the sacks without turning on the pumps.

Nacho, All I have is a stock center tank (250#). Someone told me that the center tank is 600#, but there is no way its that much. I passed on the rear hard tanks to gain the additional storage.

Rick, awesome looking boat. check out www.manraymarine.com buy a couple of the tsunami pumps at 35 bucks a piece and chuck them in the lake to fill up. that's what i'm prob going to do, or try and nut up and make a more premanant solution.

Thanks Ryan. Nice looking Enzo. Love the red - killer color!!!! The comments I have gotten so far has got my brain working on a perm. solution without drilling a hole in the hole. I think I can design a system where all I will have to do is throw over 1 hose to fill/empty both rear sacs. I know some more guys will weigh in.

If you are going to throw over a pump anyways why don't you just make a tee hose for your pump with two nipples for the sacks?

Rick i just installed a aftermarket ballast system on a customers boat last week. it was the first one that i had ever done. it had a sack in each back locker and 2 smaller ones under the front seats. it wasn't as bad as it would seem. i know it seems really skechy to drill a fat hole in the bottom of your boat and some on the sides but its not that hard. just go over your measurements a couple of times before drilling. i used a system called the rival system. a guy named andy makes them at his parents tige dealership in arizona. try giving him a call at Tige Performance Boats 480-655-9055. his system worked great for my customer.

Nice ride CAR. I am thinking mounting a ballast puppy in one of the lockers and run one hose to a tee (split the hose to 2 hoses to run to both sacs. On the other side of pump, I can run one hose, which I can throw over the side of the boat. Hope I am onto something.

Thanks, nice color choice on yours also.

Rick: Let me know if you end up mounting the ballast puppy in the locker. I have a lighting C4 with only the center tank and I too want a clean methond of putting the pump in the lake. One thing is if the pump is in the locker and the hose is in the lake it may be difficult to prim the intake pump.

I used the center bilge hole as my water intake, but I did have to drill 4 holes (above the water line) for the overflow/vent lines and exit lines. There is a way to fill and empty out of the same hull though. This would allow you to fill and empty from a bilge hole and all you would need to do it pick up the appropriate parts at home depot and some sacks/pumps somewhere else and you are good to go.

The fill times won't be super fast cause the bilge hole is typically just a 3/4" hole, but I went for simplicity not speed, with my design.

Neil, I was doing some research on the ballast puppy. It says it is self priming so I do not think that will be an issue.

Patrick -Crap, I never thought of the venting piece of this project. Can I tap into the existing system that is in place for my center ballast tank?

Ryan, thanks for the lead. I may call Andy if I go the drill route.

I am somewhat of an old hand at ballast systems, and IMO the Rival system is the best design out there. I totally revised my system last year, and it is almost a shameless copy of the Rival system, with just a few tweaks and improvements.

Here's my old, now-outdated article that is still good for some basics: http://www.wakeworld.com/Articles/2001/BallastSystem1.asp

guys, hold on a second. a couple things first. ballast systems: 1. you have a pump-in-lake 2. some type of built in system either automatic or semi.

there are two types of semi-auto ballast systems:

aerator pumps: need vent lines or valves, do not prime themselves, not reversible. you need two per bag (unless you tee a couple bags together, like i did).

impeller pumps: do not need vent lines, do prime themselves, are reversible. you need 1 per bag (again, unless you tee)

Now, i don't own a centurion so i have no idea whatsoever which type of system Rick's boat has. The reason I asked 'no ballast?' is b/c the easiest way to add ballast is to modify an existing system.

If we don't know that then its really hard to comment on what you should do. So, are we talking aerator system or impeller system?

trace, i always forget about that. Thats exactly what i used to build my system a few years ago and couldn't be happier. after reading it probably 20 times, i finally found the courage to drill a 1 1/2" hole in my boat. Great article.

Not sure that I agree with 'do not need vent lines' for an impeller pump system. Although the impellers should introduce less air into the system, some will accumulate. Also, venting helps against bursting. I almost burst a bag...once. Vent to be safe and for optimal system performance.

I also did a write-up, but I drilled holes (4)...oops 8 (or 9) holes including vents.

http://www.wakesiderides.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17225&st=0

(Message edited by P-hat in Cincy on April 18, 2007)

Trace, excellent article. Lots to digest. My current stock system is aerator (center tank). Now, if I went to an impeller system for the 2 rear sacs, can it be done with one hose being put in the lake? Or should I plumb it into the center drain plug (if I can get to it from inside the boat)? Great thread so far - still do not have the nads to drill....

rick - add a T to the thru-hull that is for your center tank....

Rick, why can't you use the thru-hull inlet that is used to fill your stock center tank? You could come off of that inlet with a simple pvc manifold that splits 3 ways, and supplies an aerator pump for each sac.

Each bag would need to be attached to its own "empty" pump, and yes, you would need to drill a hole above the waterline for it to empty. Flow-rite makes some factory looking black thru-hull fittings. You will not even notice them after the second time you see them.
https://www.flow-rite.com/store/marine/retail/marinestoreretail.html

Thanks for the input Josh and Rich. Any pics out there? I like adding the T to the thru hull idea. That will be my starting point.... I hope this thread is helping other "Do it yourselfers"

i don't have any pics -- but i just finished mine less than 2 weeks ago -- works flawlessly.... use what is existing when possible..

rick good luck with it. remember, your fill time will be restricted by the one thru hull.

if you use impeller pumps (jabsco puppy) then you shouldn't need more than 1 line per sac. IMO you shouldn't worry about venting it. you need to burp it once (get the air out) then it should be good to go. just watch the sacks so they don't pop. probably the simplest way to go.

Do you feel differently about your dash and guage cluster? you'll need switches for the pumps that you may have to drill. big wakes are fun.

(Message edited by denverd1 on April 18, 2007)

here is a picture of what I was describing. Since you already have one pump supplying the center bag, you could modify this to add 2 pumps, not 3. There are lots of variations of this setup.

That's a sweet set up, Rich. Nacho, I do not have qaulms at all with the gauge cluster. I can handle that. One question - if I run a T off the thru hull inlet, do I use 1 ballast puppy per sac or can I get away with just one? Also, Nacho I am not too worried about the fill time. I figure by the time we find good water or make the run to a boarding spot, both sacs should be full.

you can get away with one. and really no reason to put another pump/switch when you're still pulling water thru the same 3/4" hole. BTW, you'll want a check valve (only allows flow in one direction) after the T so that when you drain the two new sacs while underway, you won't accidentally fill the center tank.

Rich, thats a good looking manifold. i think you asked about pump orientation a while back. after thinking about it, outlet up (like yours) would help any air escape the pump and help it prime. just something i thought about. have you put it in yet? how much weight will you have?

Nacho, I installed it but haven't tested it yet; finishing up all the electrical. I am also putting in a gate valve between the manifold and the bronze shut-off and am waiting on one part on backorder. The gate valve is cable-actuated from inside the boat. It will allow me to shut off the main inlet without raising the back hatch.

I looked at the Rule instructions, and the pump orientation should be good. My system is designed to add 1200 lbs, plus I have 300 lbs of lead for the bow.

Just an idea if you didnt want to drill holes and wanted it to be semi auto-matic(would save you some time)

Rich, sounds good. I put 2 pumps on each 3 position switch. Works really well, 4 pumps 2 switches.

when i built mine, i searched high and low for a suitable gate valve solution and couldn't find one. post a link if you can. if i understand you correctly, its a manual valve. i like the idea better than relying on a 12v motor to seal it off.

I have done and have seen people just T off of the raw water intake for the cooling. It's really easy, cut the hose in half, insert a T or Y. Run the hoses to a reversible pump for each bag. Wire a switch for each pump. Overflows are great to have, I T-d into my existing overflows and have no issues at all.

I run 2 simer pumps on a Malibu VLX '06 and ran 3 on my old '95 sunsetter. Seen this same setup on a Mastercraft, Correct Craft and a moomba.

I try not to run the engine too fast while filling, but even then if you watch your temp you'll know if your engine is getting enough water to keep cool.

dizzy, i don't think this would become an issue unless you had more pumps. but, wouldn't running a higher RPM give you more water to pull from?

it does but the engine also is supposed to need more water at higher rpms, so what I've heard is you may starve the engine of water it needs. I haven't had any issues with that but tend to watch my temp a little more carefully if filling while running at more than idle.

Draining is fine because the engine just sucks up the water for cooling. I don't even both with check valves or anything like that as there is a manual valve where the raw intake comes into the boat that I can close if needed and the pumps don't let water through when not in use like an aerator would.

Nacho, here is a link to the gate valve
http://www.valterra.com/RV/rv-main.htm
scroll down to cable-actuated waste valves; I got a 1.5" valve with a 6-foot cable. the handle will be right next the the back seat, tucked under the side panel.

Flow-rite makes a gate valve for bait tanks, but 3/4" opening is the largest they make.

I will do a write-up with pictures over the weekend. Sorry to hijack this thread.

i wouldn't call it a hijack, safety valves are very relevant. Valterra made the valve i looked at and wasnt' happy with. thanks for the link.

Rick: you need a ball valve in between the fresh water T and the line to your sacs as a safety device. if that line fails, you take on water and starve your engine.

Rich, is this the one you bought?


TC172 72" Flexible Cable Kit w/ 1 1/2" Valve 60.10

Where exactly are you going to put the handle? Starboard or port side?

dizzy, that makes sense.
Rick, i realized that a check valve in between the fresh water T and the center tank will do nothing for you. the problem is that for the new sacs, you will drain back through the T to the engine intake. if engine doesn't pull enough water, then you will be forcing water into your center tank sac. i guess you need a valve there too.
(edit)
that's issue with mixing types of systems. using common fill/drain lines gets confusing.

(Message edited by denverd1 on April 19, 2007)

Erik, the handle goes right here on the Port side; back seat is removed right now

Rick ive done 4 of these (01 MC 209, 98 air nauti, 05 calabria pro v, and 96 mc ps 190) now with the ballast puppy which is an AWESOME pump its a bit pricey but if nauti's are using them you know their solid ive left mine running dry for like 10 min and still havnt needed to replace the impeller yet. To answer your question about the exhaust, you don't need one, in fact a friend of mine put one (an exhaust hose) in a pro v and it screwed the whole thing up. It stems from the impellers ability to self prime which it does well. The self priming ability means its air tight and thus can also pump air (not recommended but will none the less). Without an exhaust you can empty with the reverse mode and the sacks will suck dry like they come from the factory making them more space efficient and easier to handle. If your buying the sacs new get the pro x ones they're almost indestructable and have o rings(keeps system sealed well) and hook em up right out of the box that way you'll NEVER have air in the sys. but if you already have sacs just get a 2 way hose barb and hook it up to the sack and hose clamp it where the threads are. ruins the threads but your autoballast now right? once its all sealed up run it dry in reverse till the airs out of it and your ready to go (DONT worry these pumps are bulletproof) One more tip use heavy gauge wire to the pump and switch and the pump ll go faster also use a shut off valve after the y on the output so you can surf that bad boy. good luck

Thanks for the info AVS. Nacho, I think i am going to stay away from the engine intake route. Good thread - I am probably going to go the ballast puppy route and tap into my existing system that fills my center ballast. Based on what AVS said, I will not vent/exhaust the 2 rear sacs. I better order my switch now from the Centurion dealer - probably will take weeks to get. By the way AVS, my system will be plumbed so I can fill only one sac to surf.