Skimstyle vs Surfstyle

As indicated in this thread:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/424610.html?1173999392

Centurion and Lake Tulloch are hosting the second annual Spring Break Wakesurfing contest. Kudos to both of those organizations for the efforts and support of wakesurfing.

Special round of applause for Kayce Brewer of Centurion Boats for making it happen.

If you read the article on the Centurion site you will see the reference to separating the men's into surf and skim styles. I will take the heat for this I pushed for that separation in this event.

Jerry Price of Shred Stixx and I have talked about this for ages, also Mike Armstrong of Calibrated and I have had recent conversations with Mark Sher from Inland Surfer.

I know that not everyone will be happy with the split, but I'd really like to try and reach consensus before the event.

Picture of Josh Sleigh riding a Shred Stixx out in the delta and in this picture, he's going off switch, I do believe. Honestly, shouldn't riding like that win any contest behind the boat? IMO it should, however, it takes considerable amount of time for a surfstyle rider to set up for that trick, pump into the wake, boost that huge air and land. How does a judge contrast that with say a Drew Danielo that maybe does 5 shuv 3's in the same amount of time? It's very difficult to judge the two styles of riding when they are commingled in the same general class. Very difficult to weight a single aerial trick that is equivalent to say 5 surface tricks.

For the majority of us it's not a big deal, but for those talented riders, especially the Drew's and Josh's it's almost impossible to come to a general consensus on how to judge or score the two differing styles that gives a consitent and somewhat objective basis to the scoring.

The initial discussion for segregation would include the definition of a skimstyle board, meeting the "majority" of these criteria. That is to say something like the Awake Stealth wouldn't become a surfstyle board due strictly to the three fins:

Less than 1 inch thick
Less than 5 feet in length
No more than 1 fin per end
Fin depth less than 2 inches

anyway...flame on?

We are considering that riders would be able to enter both divisions, BUT I do believe you'll have to pay twice - I haven't asked about that yet, so give me a chance there.

I would, of course, appreciate any advice, recommendations or input.

Jeff,
Are you saying that 3of 4 would become skimstyle? So a 1 1/4" with 2 fins would be surfstyle.

I'm sorry Dennis, I'm not sure I understand the question. I probably wasn't clear in using the "majority" above. Would you be so kind as to rephrase for me? Oh and James has his permit

Would a 1 1/4" thick board and 2 fins be a surfstyle board? I am sure James is excited.

Not quite enough info...How long is the example board, what are the depth of the fins and are the fins both on the tail?

He's quite pleased, yes indeed.

Sorry I assumed that the board meet the other requirements but not the ones I noted.
Knowing him like I do I am sure he will make a fine driver. Is he towing the boat Sunday?

I think the intent is to provide a level playing field, and quite honestly make it easier for the Judges, so it's not intended to be exclusionary.

Kayce Brewer made an excellent point. Kayce is very flexible and basically just wants to promote and advance the sport, so her point was...it doesn't need to be strictly adhered to. If a qualifed rider KNOWS the difference and wants to ride say a Phase 5 Prop, against Josh Sleigh in the Surfstyle division, that's fine.

However, for the judges, they can score a rider on a skimstyle board riding in the SURFstyle division lower for doing shuv's against a rider doing an aerial like above.

I think what we do, is ask what division a rider wants to enter, if the entrant isn't sure, then we suggest which division based upon the above criteria.

The bottomline is we are striving for a level playing field and some consistency.

Jeff,
Would I be on a skimstyle board on my 1 1/4" 5'2" skim board when I do my shuv.

When you do your Shuv? If you throw a shuv, you can be on any style board you want Dennis.

I think I would need one to beat you in the Masters Division.
Back to the question I asked before.
Would a 1 1/4" thick board and 2 fins be a surfstyle board? Everything else meeting the requirements

Technically, the hypothetical board doesn't meet the "majority" of the criteria for inclusion in the skimstyle division, so it would more than likely fall into a surfstyle division. Again, that isn't carved in stone.

I wish I had more then 30 secs to express how bogus that is.

if we're leveling the field/ spliting divisions because surfstyle riders are complaining that they can't compete with shuvits and bigspins does that mean skimstyle is "pro and surfstyle "semi-pro"?

Actually Sean, not a single surfstyle rider has complained to me, in fact most of those folks aren't that fond of me. The only thing I've heard is that there is more interest to participate in the sport.

Really this is strictly about the judging. I created that huge trick list for the INT League and then also in the contests we ran last year.

I got input from experts in both fields and it became almost impossible to create a mechanism that was fair and consistent.

As an example, Chase Hazen has this one trick where he drifts all the way back to very back of the pocket, then pumps as hard and as fast as he can to the lip, once in the air he throws a 180 and lands almost revert, catches and brings it about. It's impressive and I think something that ALL of us want to encourage for the growth of the sport.

The problem though, from a judging standpoint, is it takes FOREVER for him to set up and land. Not diminishing the trick or Chase, please don't misunderstand...it just takes time.

In the same period of time that it took Chase to throw that aerial 180 to revert, a person on a skimboard can throw about 5 to 6 shuv's...I'm sure that someone as talented as a Jaime or Drew could do 8 to 9. So how do you equalize those two? Is the aerial equal to 1 shuv? That isn't fair. Is the aerial equalivalent to 6 shuv's? If so, then every skimstyle rider would have to do a minimum of 6 shuv's in a row in order to compete with a surfstyle rider that does 1 aerial. That doesn't seem fair either.

The complexity of establishing a fair, somewhat objective system that can be applied consistently, IMO, necessity the division of these two styles up at the higher levels.

Sean, I REALLY appreciate your input and I am still open to discussion. I am hoping that it doesn't decline to just complaining.

I'm not hearing ANY surfstyle riders? So, does that mean they don't WANT this division? Anyone?

Chase and the trick referred to above.

In 02, two nights before the first official wakesurfing contest at Lake Yosimite, an old friend and I were scratching our heads trying to come up with the judging criteria. Being that the sport Y'd two years earlier, a surf style and guys using skimboards that were used at the beach. I said, "How are we going to do this"?!!. My friends answer is still the best I've heard. He Said, "This is going to be like judging trick skiers against slalom skiers or jumpers".
As someone who has been a judge several times,
I have to say it has become even more difficult as the surf style has gone airbourn, especially the last two years. And believe me, Chase, Josh and James are not the only one's blasting off. There is a whole crew coming up as you will see this year.
Waterski Comps: Slalom, Trick, Jump, all run at the same event. Wakeboarding, Wakeskate, at the same event. The evolution of wakesurfing contest, if they survive,wakesurfing will, with of without contest, will need two classes also.
It IS going to happen so we need to start now so we can run the two at the same event also making it easier for sponsorship. There are enough riders these days for the two classes but not enough for two seperate SPONCORED events, YET.
Keep up the good work Kaycee!! Love your attitude girl! Now, I need to go get towels ready for the ass-chewing i,m about to get form those opposed, all scar tissue anyway. Just Joking!
Seriously, would like to hear the other side, because I have never understood, from someone who has been involved with the past contest.

Jerry,
Well said. I really think that the events will have to be split just as wakeboarding and wakeskating. They have alot in common and alot different. I am sure that the level of riding at the top will continue to evolve and progress. What was unheard of a couple of years ago are now being done with ease. We need to look at the future not only next year but 10 years out.

Mike from over at Wakesurfing magazine informed me with a link to this discussion. At first I was not going to get involved or post, since I have witnessed mindless typing & things that should be never said or done unless true. I do feel this discussion is an important matter & want to contribute my sentiments. Since my first experience with wakesurfing, I fell in love. The people, geographical locations to surf & the families are all really special. Like every infant sport looking to find its footing & direction, there have been debates on what is cool & what is not. As an athlete/surfer I have always looked at the media for inspiration.They support the culture that define the sport. Now I know in surfing we have Surfer,Surfing & TransworldSurf magazines & in Skimboarding, SKIM magazine. Respectfully there is a defined line between the two cultures or tribes of people. Yes, some cross over & do each others sports. But, never has one competed against the other in the history of the world until wakesurfing. How this happened I do not know. Was it a matter over money & politics, trying to blend the 2? Maybe. But the truth is these are 2 defined sports & we are witnessing it. You don't see Drew busting my moves on my board & vice versa. Plus, look at the media outlets in the world. Its divided & they are proud to be representing their boarding culture. So what is happening? Is it a good thing? Of course! It's just the start. We will see more of a selection of companies get involved, meaning more events, better products/development, and more growth for this industry. That IS a good thing, period!
Centurion stepping up with this event & dividing the 2 styles is a revolutionary step. Individual style recognition will now be properly rewarded. So I am pumped & look forward to the future of wakesurfing. Check out coverage on mobgroup.tv

See everyone on the water & enjoy...Sleigh

Jerry, at that point I was working on about 8 hours sleep total in 4 days and I apologize for my unconstructive post.

I actually can see the merits in having 2 classes but also the drawbacks. Is there an increased prize pool to support the 2 classes and make them worthwhile to travel to?

What happens when we start seeing riders that bust fat airs, varials, shuv-its, and bigspins all in the same run? I don't understand why a rider will not be scored as highly if they can combine elements of both "styles".

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 17, 2007)

Sean,
If the judges are well qualified and aware that a shuvit on a skim board and a shuvit on a surfboard are not equally difficult. Then a rider would be scored higher for the same trick. To use surfing as a guideline as Josh did above. The shortboard and longboard do not compete together. They really are apples and oranges. IMO When a rider on a shortboard starts hanging ten for 5 secs I am sure he would get extra points. Same as when a skimboarder starts busting fat airs. There will always be the exceptional rider that pushes the limits and they will be awarded. A couple of years ago Drew did a board transfer at the worlds and it was the talk of the town. Now I would think there are probably 100's that can do it. Jennifer Sellers did one at the INT last year. The best riders will push the trick list.
As far as the prize pool goes as the interest goes up, surely money will follow. Seems to me that if we only look at the prize money, as we grow the sport from infancy, then we will shoot ourselves in the foot. I am sure that the early surfing, wakeboarding, pick a sport contest did not have big prize money.

why would we be using judges that don't understand the difference? If previous judges haven't then it seems to me that the problem lies elsewhere? Surely it can't be too difficult to find 5 competent judges for 2 contests a year.

Also prize money is a very big factor in drawing pro talent and should be treated as such. If wakesurfing has struggled to draw enough attention from pro athletes in other sports with a $5000 top prize what makes you think we are going to boost participation with a $2500 top prize.

(Message edited by CAskimmer on March 17, 2007)

If there are only a handful of people that can pull off a shovit on a surf style board, where are the qualified judges coming from?

Hey Ed, thanks for asking that question the AWSA is providing the judges and I can assure everyone that they are qualified and committed to this and every contest. The only exception might be in the "masters" division. I like to give the judges a break and so we rotate them out of the boat at division changes. I also like to include the younger contestants and I am considering getting the judges for ONLY the masters division from the boys and girls entrants. We'll see.

I want to PERSONALLY thank Josh Sleigh for posting, his commitment in this regard is to be applauded. Although I do want to clarify one point. The folks at Centurion asked the AWSA to sanction this event. Kayce Brewer is certainly the powerhouse for making this event a reality.

The division of the skim and surf is the suggestion of the AWSA. The folks at Centurion are incredibly supportive and in particular Kayce is very flexible and innovative, but if THIS division of the classes turns out to be a mess...I am the one that folks should point their finger at. Several folks of our organization were totally against this split, and several were at best ambivalent, still several were decidely for the split. As the President of the AWSA I cast the deciding vote and I am the one that suggested it to Kayce and the folks at Centurion. If it works it was the support and effort of everyone involved, if it is a nasty mess...I could have prevented that.

Josh is quite correct in that Kayce and Centurion should be applauded for being open to change and making efforts to progress the sport.

Sean, again I want to thank you for your input and hopefully this won't sound like we are attacking you. You are helping voice the opinion of a TON of folks.

The ONLY contest that we are talking about, so far, is the Lake Tulloch Spring Break Wakesurfing contest. Projecting this change to any other contest is premature at this point.
Although your point is well taken, dilluting an existing prize schedule in half would not be condusive to expanding the sport. The prizes for this contest will be increased to cover the additional division.

I want to address Sean's one additional point made early about combined styles in the next post.

Sean, it's easy to miscommunicate in this medium. The point I was trying to make earlier, apparantly not clearly , is that the division of the styles isn't intended to be exclusionary. What we are TRYING to do is recognize that there are significant and substantial differences in the style of riding.

Let me see if I can clairify, if we are running the surfstyle division and let's assume that Drew decides to enter that division on is pro model, it would be fine. If we are lucky enough to have Josh enter and let's say that Josh throws a shuv on his placebo. That board has like 4.5" fins. Now, Drew rides next and also does a shuv. Same trick, but in this division, the shuv by Drew would be scored LOWER than the shuv thrown by Josh.

The intent is to group similar styles of riding, recognize that certain tricks for surfstyle take longer to set up and execute and also that certain tricks in skimstyle can be done more quickly. As the sport progresses and more and more riders become proficient, it will be necessary to train judges in a specialty. From an organizational standpoint, it's really hard to get one ondividual to volunteer to maintain a training document for both styles, to assist in training others and as Josh pointed out...most of us have a "passion" and are more current with developments and changes in that style of riding.

I don't mean to come off as unsupportive by presenting a dissenting view. I just don't like being told what type of style rider I am nor am I too stoked about having to compete with pros. IMO intermediate and advanced/pro divisions are a better idea.

I'm riding a 51.5" long 7/8" thick twinfin skimboard with 2 3/8" fins? What category would I fit in?}

In fact as much as I'd like to support the sport I love I won't be spending the $400-500 in travel expenses if it means I'm just blown away by the likes of Drew Danielo and Jaime Lovett or Josh Sleigh and gavin Sutherland. Where's the competition in that?

(and I was originally really looking forward to traveling to this contest)

In fact as much as I'd like to support the sport I love I won't be spending the $400-500 in travel expenses it's going to take to get there if it means I'm just going to get blown away by the likes of Drew Danielo and Jaime Lovett or Josh Sleigh and gavin Sutherland. Where's the competition or fun in that?

(and I was originally really looking forward to traveling to this contest)

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 17, 2007)

Sean, I appreciate you speaking up, your views are not peculiar to you...you are speaking for a ton of folks that lurk and don't post, that send me email telling me that I am RUINING the sport (I do so love having that power ) and those that merely complain to the host of this sight and don't express their views openly.

I was just explaining to Judy that you aren't a malcontent, you are in fact seeking consensus and the BEST idea is what emerges. So you have my sincere thanks for speaking up.

We aren't FORCING anyone to be in a class. Again, it isn't exclusionary. YOU are a knowldegable rider and so could place yourself in either category. Technically, the board doesn't meet the "majority" of the classifying criteria and so would, by default, fall into the surfstyle division. If you ASKED us to classify you, we would recommend the surfstyle division.

Sean, I have no idea who will actually compete, but at last year's event they put together the masters division basically on the day of the contest. I have seen the professional riders and they are pretty supportive, if their participation in an amateur event would diminish participation, I'd bet they would ask to have their own division.

The World's does this - boys, girls, amateur men's and women's and then open men's and women's. I haven't heard anything that would indicate the likes of the folks you mentioned are entering. Do you have more info than I do?

Sean,
Do you think that all the pros from other sports are going to show up to compete for prizes not money? Jaime was there last year and did not win. Drew judged.

Well IMO the difference between surfstyle and skimstyle is nonexistent except for at the pro level so if you aren't expecting that tlevel of participation what's the point?.

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 17, 2007)

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 17, 2007)

This is an experiment that may turnout great or might turnout poorly. Either way we will all learn something. I went to the contest last year willing to compete with a bunch of young people including Jaime and others at 55 years old. When I got there I convinced Kayce to add a master's division. We filled that division and had as many competitors as the open division. I went to compete knowing I couldn't hold a candle to that crowd. I went to support the sport.

As much as I love wakesurfing I'm not going to spend $500 and travel halfway across the state for a competition if I think it's going to be unfair. The point of of competitions is to expand awarness of a sport by providing an enviroment to compete against others of similiar ability.

making this the first tournament in history to split the Mens field by style, rather than age or ability.-but yet there's a master division? I find it ironic that the two voices with the most influence in this change have their own age/skill division.

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 17, 2007)

Sean,
You failed to read my last post. I went to compete against whoever in the men's division last year. I knew I would not have ANY chance. I went to enjoy my first contest. I convinced Kayce that I could fill another class Master's. If there was no master's division I would gladly compete in the open surf division. I would not be able to compete against almost anyone. In fact since I am going to be judging the open men's division I wouldn't be able to compete. You make it sound like we created a class just for ourselves. I personally had no say in the division of classes, though I don't have a big problem with it. In fact as a judge I like it because it makes the job easier. There is also a junior and women's division. How else would you divide the classes and how would you separate they entries?

No, I read your post and IMO your view doesn't reflect the majority of competitors. Most people aren't passionate about the sport enough to spend the time and money of travel for the sole purpose of entering a contest regardless of the outcome. Most people who enter competitions do it because they have an overly competitive nature and like to guage themselves against others of similar abilities with the perception of a chance at winning.

There needs to be different classes. Just like in surfing comps you don't have a long boarder going up against a short boarder. There also should be a novice/pro divisions. My 2 cents.
Surf More/Work Less!
Wadd$

I agree though I do have a very competitive nature. I am sure that we could have as many divisions as to let everyone be able to guage themselves against others with similar abilities. Getting prizes for all those classes might be a challenge though. I still think that spliting entries in each class would be hard. Honestly Sean I would be happy to allow you to compete in the master's with us old folk. Or eliminate it all together for a intermediate class. I think after riding with you that you probably would not be in the intermediate class. IMO

Been 75-82 degrees. GO RIDE!!!!!!!
Been Practicing for the contest for days. You all should too . Josh, give me a call if you want to ride....or anyway. Chase is in Costa Rica so we can get more riding time...HA!

Actually, the reason I am in favor of the masters division is that the majority of folks that are volunteering to judge are of "that" age (euphamism for old ). Our rules for judging attempt to prevent the appearance of bias, as well as, actual bias. SO...no judge can be involved in judging a contest in which they have a relative or they themselves compete. For example, I couldn't judge a division in which James rides.

With the masters division I can rotate all the judges without any of them judging a relative or compromising the integrity of the event AND allow those folks involved in judging to ride, also.

I'm sure that I mentioned that we will more than likely have the masters contest judged by the kids This division is mostly about having fun and laughing at each other.

I think that Johnny and Sean are accurate in that a Pro or Advanced level should be held, as needed. Last year at the AzWA contest when Jaime Lovett showed up, an Advanced division was created on the contest day. James, Jaime and YOURS TRULY entered the advanced class. Wanna guess who came in third?

Kayce Brewer has demonstrated time and again her willingness to take into consideration the best interests of the sport and the contest. As has been mentioned before on the day of the contest, last year, the masters division was created. There isn't anything to suggest the same flexibilty and desire to support and progress the sport won't hold true this year.

I can't remember who mentioned it, but creating surf and skim at all levels probably isn't viable at this stage due to prize considerations and as Sean points out ability. My guess or expectation into the future is that we'll see more skill development in younger ages and the judging system will need to adapt to the participants ability rather than the other way around.

I can appreciate that Jerry wants us all to go ride, but I really do appreciate the input and discussion from all. Especially Sean, I know it's not easy being the voice of dissention, but if we don't get the chance to hear that "voice" we can't make an informed decision. Silencing the voice, doesn't make that perception go away. I do hope that folks recognize Sean brings up many valid points and for the benefit of the sport we need to encourage that discussion and make efforts, as practical, to accomodate as many viewpoints as possible.

Thanks again to all who have taken the time to participate in this discussion.

Thanks for seeing that I'm really not trying to be a jerk even though that's how it may come across. (and am going riding in an hour)

Hey Jeff,
Maybe we should be practicing also.

Scratched the riding. it's grey and in the low sixties

About 60 and grey, those are the best days to ride, on one else is out there. It will be another month before we can ride in dry suits. The good news is the fair grounds called and told me to pull my boat of the barn before the end of the month, feel like the seasons is almost here.

it was nice the other day....75 degrees & sunny with a water temp of 65...

Jeff,
If you need to reach me, call my cell, I,ll be in the boat....... till dark!
Sun: 10:33am

actually I ended up going and although the air temp was 57 when we launched it warmed up to near 70 and the watertemp peaked out at 68 degrees

Mike-Sorry about ditching out at the last minute Friday but I had no choice, this is what made me drop EVERYTHING. I've been waiting for 12 months for this place to look like this and it didn't disappoint.

Sean,

What is he riding? Where is that? I don't recognize the Jetty in the background.

The Wedge maybe? looks like a third jetty out in the distance, but I can't for sure.

He's riding a 3/4" skimboard. (could be 5/8", he rides both)

big round of applause for all those involved in getting a split competition for the Centurion event at Lake Tulock April 21st and 22sd. Also want to thank Josh for his insight.. One more thought along the same lines as Josh was stating.. If we were on the ocean Josh would be in his surf competition and Drew would be in the skim competition. Lets help the sport evolve and it will be better for everyone..

Hey Jon, how are things going over at XBC now that you've taken over the reins?

We seem to have a fairly positive response on this split. In a bigger sense we need to be thinking about the future. When does it make sense to split a division? I believe that in the initial years of the competition there just wasn't enough participation and sponsorship to make a division of the styles a wise choice. These days that isn't true.

Other potential divisions would be this surf and skim applied to all OTHER divisions such as women's and the kids. Another potential division is the women's into a women's and a masters.

It seems to me that the division should take place when to NOT do so would restrict or reduce participation OR isn't representative of the population of participants OR judging becomes so difficult as to become solely subjective.

Practically speaking, does encouraging a split at 4 or more participants in a contest of each of a specific "criteria" make sense? As an example, my lovely wife Judy will be 50 soon and she will no doubt be in a class with the likes of Jennifer Sellers and Jessica Oswald. Obviously it's impossible for a 50 year old to compete effectively against a 20'ish year old. However, if there isn't the representation I think we need to determine if that is because the LACK of a gender specific masters division is the cause OR there just aren't many competitive 40+ year old ladies.

Can we agree on the criteria for a spilt? That is:

A division should take place when:

1) to NOT do so would restrict or reduce participation

2) the current division isn't representative of the population of participants

3) judging becomes so difficult as to become solely subjective.

Jon, big difference between the ocean and the boat. In the ocean Josh starts his ride several hundred yards offshore and Drew starts his on the sand and the breaks are completely different so having the 2 compete isn't even possible. Now skimstyle and surfstyle wakesrfing are both done behind the same boat, at the same speed, and with the expection of a few pro riders the same tricks are being done by both. In the ocean they share nothing, behind the boat they share almost everything. Big difference!

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 20, 2007)

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 20, 2007)

I have spent a lot of time considering everything posted on the thread. As a judge we need to evalute every trick based on it's difficulty to properly score it. Sean would in my opinion be a great wakesurf judge because he has seen all of the tricks likely to be pulled in a contest. This is because he has seen both styles upclose. I on the other hand have very limited experience with skim tricks except for the ones I have seen. I couldn't really know the degree of difficulty in a big spin as I have never seen one done. I could in a contest only guess how hard it is to complete. I could however rank a shuvit on a surfboard and on a skim board as I have seen both attempted and completed. I feel like I am a competent judge. How many judges have had the pleasure of watching Drew, Jaime,Josh, James, Chase and more compete. I would think it is a very limited pool. At least with a split class a judge doesn't need to know how difficult a shuvit is on a surfboard compared to a skimboard. Just compare the performances with a like group.

i think it should be divided into two categories. Its two differnt styles of riding. it would be like comparing street skating and skating in pool. some one on a surfboard isn't in to doing bigspins and a ridiculous ammount of shuvits, its about big carves, riding with power, and the occasional air or surface 3. There is a definite difference between styles, and one style is not harder than the other.

Jeff, these are the grounds we r trying to set for our sport or should I say the future of the sport. I have been looking at motorcross events and seeing the different divisions they have in there sport. There are age classes all the way through size of the bike..Not to mention skill level. I think with more divisions to ride in that over time you will see classes fill up..If we dont have the correct classes the sport will never reach its potential.. Why would someone like your wife want to ride against someone half her age? I wouldnt!! On a different note I am starting to spend more time to reading on here to see what the public wants from the board manufactures like myself. Jeff I do know the best way to grow is marketing and anything anyone in the sport can do to help will benifit everyone..

Sean, I appreciate your opinion but on the hydrodynamics and manufacturing of the two different boards they are two different classes. To be fair to the riders and manufactures there should be two classes. It also helps the sport grow because the consumer has to decide what style they want to ride or maybe they want to ride both..

the manufacturing of the boards is different but besides the top 5-10% of riders there isn't much difference in the actual riding. In reality very few people riding skimstyle boards are doing shuv-its or bigspins and when you take those tricks out of the equation there is very little difference. As we stand in 2007 I just don't see the participation levels to warrant a separation of classes at the amateur level. IMO by the time we do see a big enough jump in participation board evolution will have gotten to the point where this will have been for nothing. Why should someone settle and have to choose between the 2 when they want to do it all. As this sport progresses so will board evolution and we WILL see a board that does it all sooner then later.

Let's use my local crew as an example. There are about 12 of us who ride at different times together, all of us are on "skimstyle" boards but only 1 out of those 12 (and he's a pro skimboarder) is actually doing shuv-its. The rest of us would all fit into the "surfstyle" of riding. Like Dennis pointed out I'm not at the pro level but would probably get a few complaints about competing in an intermediate division. I ride a board that would classify me as "skimstyle" but am I doing shuvits? No. Bigspins? No. I have what everyone on here keeps describing as "surfstyle" but do it on a board that labels me as something different.

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 20, 2007)

Sean,
I agree with you that board progression will negate the need for a split. IMO the sport today needs the split so that everyone feels like they have a chance to compete. I think on some level surf style riders don't think they can compete with skim style. This perception is probably founded in the results at the Worlds. I truly believe that the classes should be split until someone wins both classes on the same board or we have some judging criteria that provides input on degree of difficulty for each board for each trick ( is this even possible??). I am not sure we should divide all levels. As of today we need to split the upper division.

Jeff, big things coming for XBC.. Doing a lot of sales in Europe.. I am amped to help where I can here.

Hey Jon, I look forward to seeing what you and XBC will bring to the sport.

Gentlemen, I don't think there is a history to support the theory that the development of a generalized "product" in sports will diminish interest or development in more specialized products and contests. If we can look at snowboarding as an example. The first product was literally a surfboard with foot straps. Currently there are boards built for and/or contests in half pipe, slope style, back country powder, alpine downhill with hard boots, boardercross...I'm not sure if that is an exhaustive list or not...but the point being, I think, that as a sport's popularity increases, so do specializations. More importantly, it's is good for both consumers and manufacturers alike.

Personally, I think that we make a HUGE mistake by not attempting to recognize the various disciplines within the sport and encouraging that development and growth. Perhaps that extends to further refinement, as an example, grinding rails should THAT discipline develop in popularity. Attempting to curtail specialization or not recognize the interests of a segment of a population does not, IMO, foster development or growth of the sport.

If we look briefly at Inland Surfer for a moment. They introduced the 4-skim this season. If they are able to increase unit sales by developing a specialized product, that allows Inland Surfer to become more profitable and in turn, support more contests. If we have greater specialization, then smaller manufacturers can develop boards that are specific to that discipline. That fosters competition and enhances products that will be offered to consumers.

I would LOVE to see a separate longboard discipline develop where folks would hang ten on 8 foot longboards. Where we had enough folks in that discipline to fill 20 contests.

In my mind, there just isn't any downside to the development of specilizations in sports both for consumers, as well as, manufacturers.

Again, my sincere thanks to everyone that has expressed an opinion in this thread.

Wow, this is a pretty intense thread. I love the passion.

My first "knee jerk" reaction is that there shouldn't be any split between surf and skim. "I can ride better than you on my board than you can on your board no matter what board you ride" has always been my philosophy. Run what you brung. However, I'm starting to see the light of why we might need this split at the current evolution of this sport, but the the key to that being "current evolution". Obviously there are many very good reasons on why we should and only a few good why we should not. Ultimately, I am still in the "not" camp, but I certainly understand why we should split and I will support that decision.

I see the future as a full integration of the two. After all, we are all riding the same wave. How you "rip" that wave and what tools you use to do so are your business. All of this will be a moot point.

The important thing at this point is that you can enter whatever division you want, regardless of what board you ride. I'd like to kick all your asses in every division and then buy you all beers afterward with the prize money.

You make several good points Jeff and like I said earlier I see the merits in splitting the divisions if it's implemented correctly and IMO this contest isn't. I'll give big props to Centurion for their continued support of the sport but I don't agree with the way the AWSA is implementing the split

You still haven't answered my question about where this big difference in styles currently exist except for in the top riders. I keep seeing Josh's and Drew's names being thrown around as examples but that's not the demographic I'm talking about. (of course there's going to be a difference between a pro surfer and pro wakeskater,) Where is the difference at the intermediate level? Isn't the AWSA an amateur league?

Nor have you answered my question about how I would be judged? If I'm going to get scored lower for doing a surface 3 or a shuv-it (which I don't do) on my board am I going to get scored higher on my airs then someone doing the same sized air on a "surfstyle" board. One of your top judges already said he doesn't thoroughly understand the difference in difficulty on tricks so how's this going to work.

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 21, 2007)

(Message edited by caskimmer on March 21, 2007)

and if we're using snowboarding as an example let's take a look at boardercross. At any given race you'll see boards ranging from hardboot race boards to softboot park boards and everything in between all competing on the same course. (just like behind the same wake). There are advantages to each type of board and each individual rider must decide what piece of equipment gives him the best chance to be competitive.

or freestyle contests. Some riders use super soft rail boards and others us stiff boards for stomping huge spins. The 2 boards ride completely different and in fact are branded as different "styles" that rarely see the same terrain outside of contests.

Also in other sports any substantial change in rules or format is usually conducted at a rider meeting or similar "thinktank" type of setting prior to the change taking place.

Hey Sean, I'm sorry if I ignored any of your questions, not intentional. I'm blasting in and out between tax appointments and you probably have heard about that 'age activated attention deficet disorder'. If I could ask a favor? If you'd glean the specific questions you'd like me to address and post them, I'd be happy to respond. I may not have an answer you agree with, but certainly I can give you the respect you deserve with an answer.

Hey Sean,
Since your board is considered a surfstyle board. Surface threes and shuvits ( if you do one) would have a higher degree of difficulty than if you were on a skim board with a 1 inch fins at each end. The Walzer would be a hybrid board thatwould not be classified as a skim board. IMO you should enter the surf division as you can do all the surf tricks but also have the capability of skim tricks as well. I said that a thorough understanding of degree of difficulty only comes into play if there is no split. I am sure that 2 guys doing shuvits on a skim board would be easy to judge. Because I have seen shuvits done on surf style boards I would have a feel for the degree of difficulty compared to boosting airs. A big spin compared to a big air I could honestly say that I would have to see them to even get a feel for the degree of difficulty. Josh's backside air with body varial would be far more difficult IMO than any other trick I have seen on a surfboard. There is no points system presently in use that would quantify each trick and on what style board. if we had one then it would be easy to judge the different genre of boardswithin the same class.
What divisions would you like to see with regards to the up coming event?

I was talking to my wife about this over the weekend. I wanted to get a perspective from somebody who has never heard of the split and has ridden all types of boards. She is very intelligent and always thinks before she opens her mouth (no, she doesn't even know about this site). I presented the case and the facts from a completely non biased stance. She mulled it over for a minute and came back with the one question that, IMO, carries the most weight, "Isn't everyone going to be riding the same wake?". Me,"Yes Dear, they are." Her, "Well then there shouldn't be a split." Me, "Well what about situation X, Y and Z?" Her, "Hmmm, no. No split?" Every question brought us back to the same point, it's the same wave for everyone. Your tools are your business.

Just food for thought.

I'm not sure how the wake would be the determining factor. Based upon that then there would never be a division for a longboard. I SO want to enter that division! I have personally judged a ton of contests and written rules and judging documents and I couldn't even fathom how you could classify someone who hangs ten or walks the board against someone who does shuv's or big spins. I just can't see that it's good for the sport to constrain competitive boards to one or a limited number of types.

Anyway...this WHOLE thing is JUST an experiment. If it works, makes judging easier and more consistent then "perhaps" it becomes the model for a rule set, if it doesn't offer any improvement either in judging consistency or the number of participants, then we strike it.

We've done it the OLD way since the beginning. I'm not risk averse, I think the experiment has validity and should be given a chance.

I guess I should have stated that we were discussing an "open" or "pro" type division. I feel the wake has everything to do with it. All maneuvers attempted or completed will be on the same wave. Just as in boardercross in snowboarding. The competitors at the top of the sport should have to defeat all comers regardless of the stick they, or the rest of the competitors used to get there in order to be considered a champion.

cham·pi·on /ˈtʃæmpiən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[cham-pee-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who has defeated all opponents in a competition or series of competitions, so as to hold first place: the heavyweight boxing champion.
2. anything that takes first place in competition: the champion of a cattle show.
3. an animal that has won a certain number of points in officially recognized shows: This dog is a champion.
4. a person who fights for or defends any person or cause: a champion of the oppressed.
5. a fighter or warrior.
–verb (used with object)
6. to act as champion of; defend; support: to champion a cause.
7. Obsolete. to defy.
–adjective
8. first among all contestants or competitors.


I completely understand that it's an experiment, therefore, I feel it should be done. At this stage of the game all avenues should be explored. I'm still of the opinion that in the end there should be no split. I feel it's an issue that the judges need to judge upon. Whatever it takes to have competent judges to handle this situation, is what needs to happen, IMHO.

Nick, obviously you believe that some segregation or divisions are ok, even in the examples you use for the definition: we know there are welterweight and heavyweight championships and there are championships for a best breed of dog (albeit also a best in show).

I'm trying to understand, so please forgive me if I sound defensive or flippant - NOT my intent.

Let's take boxing...more than likely a heavyweight boxer would win in a contest against a welterweight (is that correct spelling) so...I'm supposing you wouldn't suggest that those all be in one class - there is an unfair advantage to the heavier boxer, correct? So one instance for separation would be if there is an unfair advantage to one division over another? That would be determined by a consistent determination of "win" by one clear division over another.

If we take the dog show...should they all be lumped together as canines in a single class? There would only be a single trophy or champion labeled as canine? I would guess that breeders are the impetus behind this division, but...it's ok to have a BEST OF Collie Breed, right? That's representative of that breed and is meaningful I would think at least to the breeders of that breed or fans of that breed.
I truly think this diversity is the impetus behind various divisions in dog shows, PLUS fan appreciation for their favorite breed.

I'm guessing that by using that as an example you are ok with a division based upon breeds (are surfers and skimmers the same breed? )

Would that be an acceptable reason for a split? A definitive split in fan appreciation for one type or style over all others? Or even the breeder/manufacturer who supports the contest being desirous of a separate division or class?

Again, I'm REALLY REALLY genuinely trying to understand why the division here is a problem and not in other situations. Also, at what times a division would be seen as acceptable in subjective, performance sports. Obviously we have them all over the place in differeing sports and subjective judging based contests, so why not here?

Again, Bro...I'm not busting your chops, I just genuinely don't understand.

Thanks

My .02 worth. Pro surfing never puts longboards and shortboards in the same division. The example of boardercross, isn't that a timed division, not the same as a judged event. How about combining all divisions and just have 1 class winner take all. That would be a true champion. In the dog show world i'm sure that the judge is an expert in the breed that they judge or an expert in all breeds. The wakesurfing nation IMO is very limited in judges that are experts in both styles. How many are well versed in pro skimboarding, in the ocean as that is where the top wakesurfing skimboarders come from and where their skills are honed, not behind a boat. All of these comments from everyone only make the sport better as we progress.

Hey Dennis, I don't think that it does any good to say "they don't do it that way in the ocean", that argument only works if we are talking about an actual longboard division (next year ). Skimboards and surfboards aren't really the same sport one starts from the shore, one starts from where I can't see in the ocean. But as Sean points out, this sport is behind the boat, not one from shore and one floating in the ocean.

I think what would really help this, is for reasons NOT to split - I haven't heard anything substantive on that. Nick's lovely wife suggests that it's about the wave - that isn't convincing to me as a reason NOT to split.

It's always easier to attack an idea than it is to offer viable alternative suggestions - just a fact of life. I'm not hearing anyone offer up criteria for judging shortboard vs skimboard vs longboard (next year! ). It's a HUGE task and if the concept of any division can create this much discourse, can you imagine what the trick list would do?

Judging both combined divsions is hard - opponents to the split, please offer up suggestions for me, how to effectively judge both, including the funding of the training. Let's allow those suggestions to be the focus of the surfstyle constituency.

I can see the addition of a longboard division (next year ). Now we know that in the surfing world these two styles are split, so we have a precedent. Again I would ask opponents of this new division to present a viable alternative or an argument why shortboards and longboards shouldn't be split in ocean competitions. I don't see that a longboard division and a shortboard division behind the boat would be any different than similar boards in the ocean.

Anyone willing to offer up viable alternatives?

Hey Jeff,
I agree I don't think that it does any good to say "they don't do it that way in the ocean" because I didn't say that. My only comment regarding ocean was that the pro wakesurfers riding skim boards
( Drew and Jaime) hone their skills in the ocean not behind a boat. A trick list and point value based on degree of difficulty would be one solution to the problem of judging consistency. Figure skating has done this I believe to make the judging more objective.

"Pro surfing never puts longboards and shortboards in the same division."

That was what I was referring to, sir. Sorry if I was unclear.

I am ready to turn over the trick list responsibility Are you volunteering?

My Son competes in trampoline and the scoring system is based on scoring 1-10 X three judges and a master judge that determines the difficulty of each skill A perfect score would be 30 plus D.D. routines are a ten bounces with no repeats. At my sons level he will compete two routines. One compulsory {set routine}with no difficulty added in. And the other an optional. The optional routine is ten bounces big tricks plus degree of difficulty. A good score would be in the 8s x3 Add in the D.D. of about 10 = 34. Add in the compulsory of 25 and you get 59. A example of difficulty is,
Front or back flip is worth .5 point.
Doubles are worth 1.0
Each 1/4rotation of flip is .1
Each 1/2 twist .1
flips in pike / straight .01 each flip.
If wakesurfing was using the same format it might look like this:
360 .6 DD.for skim
360 1. DD.surf
1/2 twist air .06 skim
1/2 twist air 1. surf
1/2 twist each surface rotation .3 skim
1/2 twist each surface rotation .6 surf
1/2 body rotation .3 skim
1/2 body rotation .6 surf
Grabs .2
Most known trick would have a predetermine D.D.
Each run is a ten trick run.
If you fall its over for that run. you get credit for last trick completed.
Only competitors in open class get optional passes. Each execution judge can only take max of .5 off of each trick. Each trick has 1. point value + D.D. At the end of the pass each of the execution judges must be with in .05 tenths of each other or must adjust.

Hey Mac,
I would think that such a system would work well "IF" we could agree on the degree of difficulty for each trick for each style. The problem in my eyes is quantifing (sp.) the tricks done currently and allowing for growth of other tricks. It is far easier to look at 2 competitors both on skim boards and pick which one had the best run. Then to see one skim and one surf and decide whether Mark's backside three is harder than Drew's 360 shuvit.

Hi Dennis,
In this format drew's quickness he would be able complete 10 tricks to Marks six? So the DD. for each surf or skim would have to be adjusted to how many tricks each could do in the same time. Max score for drew's 360 shuvit would 1pt.for the trick +.6 for 1/2+1/2 surface rotation. If he put a 1/2 body rotation in add .03 for a total of 1.9.
For Marks back side 3 would be 1pt. for execution
+1 for surface three =2. keep in mind us surf guys
can do it at 1/2 speed.

Would the only factor in d.d be time? As you stated or was that just a hypothetical?