Supercharge Toyota

What do you guys think about this.
Eaton Supercharger on my toyota's Lexus 4.0L 300hp motor. The charger adds approximately 50% more power. So, this would take my toyota to 450hp, and around the same abount of torque. Anyone done this before? Anyone have any ideas about cooling the unit because obviously a traditional intercooler wouldn't work. Also, I will probably want to prop it differently, I'm thinking like a 15 or 16 pitch 4 blade prop?

Holy Crap! Are you serious?
Do you realize its $15K to replace the motor
if you blow it? (plus labor!)
Although I must say: 450h sounds great!
I personally think the motor can handle
it. What are your goals here? Speed
or torque?
How much for the supercharge unit? And
will it fit under the hatch?

You could keep the boost lower to keep the engine in one piece. As far as intercooling, that is easy: air to water. The boat runs on top of a lot of heat capacity (water). Is the Toyota maring engine the same block as theor 4.0L??

Yep. Same motor.

If you keep boost under 7psi you won't need an intercooler for an Eaton SC. You won't see a 150HP increase, but you also won't need lots of other upgrades and decrease reliability.

While the blocks are the same, is the injection/computer the same?

you could put twin turbos on it and put a big spoiler and an R across the bow and a coffee can muffler. and a bottle of nitrous.

(Message edited by timmy on April 28, 2003)

You could reprop the boat, but, I would maybe be concerned that extra torque could kill your tranny and things

yeah I don't think an intercooler would be necessary for this application as shawn said. I could see if you were running like 12lbs of boost. Problem with intercoolers is you have to deal with pressure-drop. Sounds like a cool idea. Let us know how it works out.

Wakeman,

Here is the potential problem you will have. I thought about this for my GT-40 PCM engine in my Nautique. The fuel injection system in boats do not have 02 sensors and mine does not have a mass air sensor. I'm not sure if the Toyota has one. That means that the ecm only uses a bap sensor and static fueling tables when injecting fuel for a given load. Adding a supercharger without being able to adjust your fuel tables would be disastrously lean.

On my boat I could raise fuel pressure by adding an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and an FMU but that would not work very well for anything other than full throttle. It would be pretty difficult to get the a/f ratio correct at part throttle where you spend 90+% of your time. Without a MAF or 02 sensors to aid the computer in optimizing a/f ratio you will be chasing the tune.

It would be way cool if you made it work though.

I see all of your points. It was an idea that came to me over the weekend. First, the intercooler. How would I use an air to water unit when the only air under that hatch it steaming hot? second, I'm almost sure the tranny could take it because, to my understanding (although i haven't done alot of research), Most he the skiboat trannys are the same. The transmission in that high powered nautiqe doesn't seem to have a problem, besides, I use my machines very gently and thoughtfully. I almost never use full throttle settings, and I thoroughly let the engine warm up before getting on plane. I'm not planning on boosting the poop out of it, I just thought it would be a sweet uprade to even further unique-ize my boat. I'm figuring a super would cost around 3-4K for a whole kit. As far as greg's problem, this particular motor is very advanced even in the automotive world, nevermind the marine world. It has very advanced computer systems along with VVT-I or variable valve timing with intelligence. I figure this will help a great deal with adjusting continuously for the added kick in the rear. I'm still waiting to hear back from Eaton about my application...they seem very flexaible on their applications as they manufacture OEM superchargers for Ford, GM and Mercedes.

Dude, you are nucking futs, I don't care what kind of computer your rice motor has, it is not going to learn around 10 lbs of boost! Listen to vortech347, he knows what he is talking about. VVT-I is something the marketing geniuses at Toyota came up with to call their variable valve timing. All Toyota's VVT-I variable valve timing does is advance or retard the cam timing based on a map in the PCM. The fact that you don't even know how an air to water intercooler works should tell you that you are getting in way over your head. Good luck.

It could definately be done, no doubt about it. Greg brought up some good points about the O2 sensors and MAF sensors. You can get around all of that with some aftermarket electronics like HKS's VPC or the equivelent from Greddy, but you're looking at another 1-2 grand in electronics.
You don't need or want an intercooler for this application as long as you keep the boost reasonable, but the air-water cooler would use the lake water to cool the pressurized air from the supercharger. Doesn't matter what temperature the air in the engine compartment is (well for the intercooler anyway, intake air temp is another story).

Thanks for your sensible insight shawn, as for Dan, at least vortech347 gave me some mature critisism and help as opposed to ripping me up, saying i have a rice motor? that the hell is your problem man, just because my motor is way more advanced than yours doesnt mean it's "rice". I'm not saying the VVT-I will change the AF ratio, I'm just saying it will help with adjusting the cam timing, like it's designed to. I made this thread to get constructive help from mature members of this site. What made you so mad that you had to come on here and start ripping me up?

Dan, Must agree with wakeman here.
You're a 31 yr old Mechanical engineer?
Your tone is no different than a teenage brat's.
Jeez, lighten up!

a less powerfull boost could be had by swapping the short block with a Landcruiser, Tundra or 03 4 Runner. This would be a 4.7 L. in a cast iron block. Bigger motor and more weight (bonus!!) Also, if the intake is the same as the auto aplication (I don't know if it is) TRD (Toyota Racing Development) makes a blower that bolts on. You would still have ECU issues but this blower comes with a 9th injector and hauls butt!!! I pulled my 7000lb boat with one and it felt gooooooooooooooood!!

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quote:

I almost never use full throttle settings

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Then why do you feel the need for a supercharger?

Why can't he just want a supercharger?

Wakeman,

It's a project that could be accomplished. There are plenty of resources out there. But, it could be a very expensive project.

Good luck.

Hey, if you have that kind of money to blow, more power to you. However, the supercharged engines in the M Corvette boat haven't been know for their reliability (and these engines are built by professionals). Just a word of warning.

Sorry about the rant wakeman, I guess I did come come off harsh and immature. I just felt that you were trivializing vortech347's comments by insinuating that the issues he raised don't apply to you because your engine is much more advanced than a lowly PCM GT-40. Modern EFI engines all operate basically the same, with the computer monitoring inputs from all the various sensors(BAP,MAP,TPS,CPS) and then sending output signals to different actuators(fuel injectors, ignition timing). Your engine has one more output, the variable cam timing, and may or may not have additional inputs(MAF,HEGO,CrankPS). The additional inputs and outputs may in fact make your engine harder to tune due to the additional parameters that have to be considered. Anything can be done, it just takes time, money, and expertise. I was trying to make you realize what you are getting yourself into. I apologize for the way I went about it.

Thanks Dan, accepted. I realize that you're a mechanical engineer and you know your stuff. I think this engine has things like O2 and MAF sensors because it is essentially the same motor as in the lexus cars. Since you are a mechanical engineer, you do know quite a bit, and you already have helped out so thanks for doing it nicely! I'm still waiting to hear back from Eaton on a price.

In response to Brian, one of the advantages of having a supercharger is it's boosting all the time, unlike a turbo which only boosts under heavy throttle settings. This will help since my boat is fairly heavy for only 300hp. It's 22 feet and most boats that size have more power

Wakeman, I doubt highly that your boat has 02 sensors since they do not like water very much.

Remember, a PCM GT-40 has the same FI system as a Mustang minus the MAF and 02 sensors. It actually has one sensor that a Mustang does not which is a knock sensor. How the engineers at PCM got the engine's air fuel ratios correct was to baseline the engine at sea level and then put in correcting fuel tables for barometric pressure differences that would be affected by altitude and temperature variations. It's a little crude but pretty effective. Since they do not have to worry about optimum fuel economy or emissions they could get away with this. On an over the road automobile a GT-40 engine (and I assume other marine engines) would never pass emissions testing even with catalytic converters.

Not to sound too critical but your explanations about things like the difference between a supercharger and turbocharger show your lack of understanding of the technical aspects. Modern turbocharged engines have very little lag and can make massive amounts of low end torque. They are also far more efficient than superchargers because they do not require engine power to drive a belt system.

A roots style supercharger takes as much as 100hp to drive whereas a turbocharger only uses about 20-30hp to operate because it is only a slight restriction in the exhaust system.

But, I doubt you could adapt a turbocharger to a boat because of the water through the exhaust issue.

I highly suggest you do some research on boosted applications if you are serious about this project. Corky Bell of Cartech wrote a very good book that goes into great detail the technical aspects of boosted engines.

Think you will be quite surprised to learn that superchargers do not boost all the time, nor do turbochargers only boost at heavy throttle settings.

Again, good luck and don't be afraid to ask anything.

Thanks for your input Greg. Maybe I"m getting in over my head here. I had no idea a supercharger took that much power to drive! Eaton said it had little or no loss in fuel economy. Maybe I'll just have to be happy with my 300hp. ALright, thanks guys. I think I'm convinced.

I have a Toyota SX. It is a little underpowered when weighted. Are there any inexpensive (relatively) ways to boost the HP/torque?

have you tried changing the prop to a lower pitch?

I use the stock prop which is a cutter 4 blade ss. 13x13.5, but actually it is a little larger with added cupping. Any suggestions?

FYI the cam advance is a mechanical advance that works off oil pressure. The motor uses around 110 PSI of oil pressure, most times the sender has been changed to one that reads much lower because people freak out. I would think that the cheapest way to upgrade the power would be to drop a 4.7 litre in there, assuming that the exhaust manifolds fit the new motor. Other than that, I think you could work out everything else with enough cash! Still probably cheaper to buy a new boat, even though I am a big Toyota (boat)fan. No substitute for cubic inches! www.epicmarine.com

Last year at the Big Air Tour or whatever it was called the tow boat was a red Air Natique that had a supercharger in it. It had an awsome sound to it when it went by. It is possible. Call the naqtiqe dealer in PhX and ask them about the boat I bet they could get you in touch with the guy that built it.

I believe that the Nautiques with the supercharged motors were running a PCM motor called the Lightning. It was a 5.4L, if I remember correctly. As far as I can tell, PCM stopped development of this motor a year or so ago and went with the HO 6.0L naturally aspirated motor instead.

If you want info about that motor, PCM would be who you would want to contact. They seemed to be pretty tight lipped about it when I inquired a while back though. Good luck

-Tim