carbon monoxide poisoning

On another thread in the boat and boat accessories, I was begginning to hijack a thread when I saw folks surfing without a life jacket. I commented that I had read of a person who died due to carbon monoxide while surfing (about 13 year old boy?), but may have lived had he not sunk to the bottom of the lake.

Trace called me on it to substantiate my story. I am sure it was a reliable source and will try to look it up later. I think the discussion is worthwhile, even though I'm sure it has been mentioned before.

Do any of you surf without a vest?

Hey Tall, are you sure the death was a result of CO while wakesurfing and not platform dragging? If you find out that it was wakesurfing I'd appreciate hearing about the incident. In California the preample to the law that basically outlaws platform dragging and bodysurfing behind a boat mentions the deaths of a few of the states residents.

I know I personally don't allow anyone to surf behind our boat without a PFD.

maybe teak surfing (pform dragging), but not wake surfing. totally different activities and a common misconception by the law.

i did hear a couple yrs ago about a kid drowning from swimming around a houseboat with the genny running. that's why all houseboats generators have roof exhausts now.

i usually wear a PFD, and insist that newbies wear them.

I hardly ever take my life jacket off when I'm in the boat and always wear it when I'm boarding. I guess I do it to show that I think it's a good idea. I also make sure everyone tags a life jacket as theirs before we get going.

I can't imagine wake surfing causing CO poisoning, I'd be interested to see a published source. I would expect that the CO concentration several feet back from the transom and say 5 to 7 feet above the waterline while the boat is running at 9 to 10 mph is pretty low.

Here’s a little CO research:
From http://homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/95/950907.html
Symptoms are related to the exposure level and time of exposure. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) recommends that a person should not breathe CO concentrations of 9 parts per million (ppm) or higher for any eight-hour period; 35 ppm or higher for any one-hour period; or 200 ppm or higher at any one time. Moreover, a person should not be exposed to any one of these three conditions more than once per year. The World Health Organization and Health Canada recommend a maximum exposure of 25 ppm for a one-hour period. ASHRAE Standard 62-1989 recommends an exposure limit of no more than 9 ppm in a living space, and Japan has an indoor standard that limits exposure to 10 ppm for any duration

EPA
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/co.html
Average levels in homes without gas stoves vary from 0.5 to 5 parts per million (ppm). Levels near properly adjusted gas stoves are often 5 to 15 ppm and those near poorly adjusted stoves may be 30 ppm or higher.

No standards for CO have been agreed upon for indoor air. The U.S. National Ambient Air Quality Standards for outdoor air are 9 ppm (40,000 micrograms per meter cubed) for 8 hours, and 35 ppm for 1 hour.

Consumer Product Safety Commission:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/466.html
Most healthy people exposed to CO levels from 1 to 70 ppm show no effects, symptoms begin to appear at 70 ppm. Levels from 150 to 200 ppm can cause disorientation, unconsciousness, and death.

CDC Published boating CO incidents.
Ski boat - no deaths
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5137a3.htm
Lake Havasu City channel – two fatalities
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5315a3.htm
Lake Powel house boat – two faatalities
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4949a1.htm

My bad. After more research, the case I referred to was an 11 year old boy who died teaksurfing. I can't find a single death that has occurred wakesurfing.

Studies have shown that the wake surfer is unlikely to breath enough carbon monoxide to pass out; just get a headache and feel bad. However, people sitting in the back of the boat, see pic in thread OMG!!!
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/276534.html?1137112697
have potential for harm. I have taken readings on a V-drive boat where there were levels in excess of 500ppm at this location while the boat was configured for wakesurfing. That is definately enough carbon monoxide to cause serious concern; especially since someone sitting there is unlikely to be wearing a lifejacket.
Larry Mann
www.FreshAirExhaust.com

This is an interesting conversation considering the amount of "teak surfing" and hanging out on the platform I have done in the past 20 years. Honestly I really never thought it was that much of an issue, which from the info in the above links obviously proves me wrong.

Considering the effects and risks to exposure, even in the back seats at idle, I wonder why no one has thought of CO analyzers with an audible alarm at the stern of the boat. Heck even in a car or any other possible scenario.

Being a controls engineer, I don’t think it would be difficult at all to make.

Am I nuts, or is it just the engineer in me?

thanks talltigeguy. hope there are no hard feelings.

Larry. Have you come out with FAE that will work with the wedge yet? Please let me know as soon as you do. Thanks, Mike

Mike
Our initial testing last summer looked promising but I didn't have good access to the boat for continued testing. I recently found a local Malibu with wedge that I can use. We are also working on a design for the new Power Wedge. I wish I had more time for research and development as I have several boat and surfing projects awaiting further study.

Derby
If you put a Carbon Monoxide (CO) alarm at the stern of the boat, outside, above the swim platform, it will be alerting constantly. If you put it inside, in front of the rear seat of either a direct drive or v-drive boat, it will seldom, if ever, alert.

I will explain some of our findings to better elucidate the situation. If you are idling, the back seat (direct drive) or engine cover (v-drive) CO levels can reach in excess of 1000ppm in under a minute. Once you begin moving, the CO drops dramatically to mostly safe levels.

On a direct drive boat, it’s as if there is a wall just above the transom. Behind the "wall" the CO levels are high, in front of the "wall", the levels are low. If you are traveling slowly, like in a no wake zone or wake surfing, a tailwind can push the CO further into the boat. Also, if someone is sitting in the rear seat, their torso and head can create an eddy current that draws the exhaust forward. Let's say a child is sitting in the rear seat of a fast moving boat, no problem. If the boat were slower, still likely no problem; but, if the child were to turn around and face the rear, an eddy current could form and pull exhaust and CO into their face.

On a v-drive boat, a similar situation exists; but now we are talking about a person (with no life vest) sitting on the engine cover. As I stated previously on this thread, over the engine cover of a V-drive boat set-up for wake surfing, I have measured CO levels in excess of 500 ppm. This same boat had 180 ppm of CO inside the boat, in the back seat, at 17 mph (and this was a brand new boat).

In both of the above scenarios, a CO meter mounted inside the boat would be unlikely to give any indication of what was happening to the person sitting in the rear of the boat.

The worst conditions for CO for passengers in the boat:
Slow (10 mph), engine under load (lots of ballast), heavy in the rear (a high bow creates more eddy current), people sitting in the rear at the lowest point, facing rearward. I just described wake surfing.

So how dangerous is this really? There is one documented case I am aware of where a person sitting in the back seat of a boat, towing another boat, was dead from CO poisoning when they reached shore. One person (who now has Fresh Air Exhaust on his boat) had 2 girls rushed to the hospital with CO poisoning after a few hours of sitting in the rear of the boat watching wake surfing.

A healthy person breathing the typical levels of CO in these scenarios will probably just feel ill and get a headache. Young children, the elderly, a pregnant woman’s unborn child, and anyone with heart or lung disease could suffer more harm.

Larry Mann
www.FreshAirExhaust.com

Thanks for the reply. Well just make sure to keep us posted. I think that having a FAE is a must but I do not want to give up the option of using my wedge when needed. If you think you have something that might work I do not mind being a ginne pig. I have 2005 vlx. Thanks, Mike

Hey Larry,

Any ETA on the early winter long lead FAE systems? I know you told us but I have forgotten.

I'm going to do the install myself.

SD2

I dont like wearing life vests, and usualy dont wear one only when surfing. After reading this thread though it's kinda scary maybe I will start wearing it every time.

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Wonder if the above is a kind of Spam or virus, I'm not going to open it. This is the first post by this user.

I teak surf all the time. I have a FAE now so it's not a problem, it all goes in the water. I went surfing last week on my holidays when it was scortching hot out without a life jacket just to do it once but it won't be the norm always better to be safe.