Finished winter project but problems arise! HELP

Finished installing my all powerfull system.hehehe but took it out on a 2 full batteries and after about 15 min or so I was drawing so much power that it shut off on me!!I was thinking of a better alt. but when I talked to the service department,they told me if I change the alt. I void my warranty....What's next?Any help would be appreciated!!

Were the batteries flat or did the amps overheat? I don't think you would be able to drain 2 batteries that fast?

You are going to have to get a capacitor. My brother has one in his car, he is running close to 3000 watts. His capacitor is 2 farad, this should keep you from shutting down, but your not going to be able to run the system long with the boat off.

Something like this:
http://www.sounddomain.com/item/ROCCPCC25

the Rockford Caps work,worth every penny

hey ed,

would suggest 2 bluetop optima's (4 would be better) from costco and a perko switch to start.

the caps will help but the problem is your amp draw is greater than the alt. output.

you really need a high output alt. ask california skier (the dealer) if they have one available and ask them to install it (may cost more but it might be under warranty since they installed it).

if one isnt available you can always add 2 factory alt.

let me know when you are heading out in the next couple weeks- i have got to hear it !!!

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 10, 2005)

Darren ~ That's what I thought!

My x2 has this warning noise when the volts get too low,the thing starts beeping and the stereo shuts off and the only way to make it stop is shutting the engine off!Don't get me wrong it saves enought juice to start back up!

I got one cap just for the sub amp and it's only 1 farad,getting more of those would help?

KJ ~ When I shut down the boat was running just not revd up.

mike ~ California skier said it would void the warranty because something about the computer.Ohh about my tower speakers how loud they are,ask Joe!hehehe

Is there room to add another alt on a x2?

This is the toughest problem in boat stereos, finding the right amount of power to be loud and yet not so much that you have to carry twenty batteries to power it all. I run three Optima Yellow Tops in my boat and charge them after every trip. They keep up pretty well unless we are parked all day and not charging at all. Good Luck.

The reason I was told it voids the warranty is the extra amps being pushed through the harness heat things up and start melting/shorting things out if you don't replace the stock wire with a thicker gauge.

Go with an optima battery for sure. I have one in my car and a 7.5 capacitor. I'm running almost 4000 watts and found the capacitor wasn't enough and a better alternator was the ticket. How about installing a better alternator on your own or a small shop and if something ever goes wrong with the boat put the original back in.

Big Ed. My NVS are going up this weekend. Hopefully I don't have a similar problem. I already have a high output alternator though so hopefully that does it.

Big Ed,

What are you running, equipment wise? You drained 2-deep cycle batteries dead? something doesn't sound right? How many watts do you have going to your subs. What type of music were you listening to? At what volume? What size wire are you running? How big is your fuse block? You would have to have been pulling some serious amps to shut down the system. Have you double checked all your connections/wiring?

Do some research on caps. People have differing opinions on weather they help or not. I think they work. If you were listening to something that had alot of hard bass in it and cap would have helped. All the cap will do is provide a "buffer" against your batteries from heavy amp draw. Basically a quick storage, that is instantaneously depleted and recharged.

(Message edited by acurtis_ttu on February 11, 2005)

ed,

how about a different mc dealer ???????

i dont know if the extra cap on the jl amp will help that much...the jl's is class d (pulls less amps) and has a regulated power supply.

would really suggest the optima blue top batteries if you havent upgraded your batteries yet...

what is happening is the system is pulling more than what can be produced by the alt., so it it goes to the battery for the difference. as a result, your battery is constantly being run down (very low) and recharged... acid based batteries are only good for 2-3 run downs before they go bad (doesnt matter if they are deep cycle or not) .. gel cells (like the optima can be totally drained 1000's of times and come back 100 % (and they charge more quickly than traditional gel cells)

a cap should help..in fact 2,3,4,5,6 of them should. but the basics should be covered first (at least 2 gel batteries with a perko, alt.(very important)..then caps if needed). this stuff gets pretty pricey very quickly and there are laws of diminishing returns that should be considered.

regards,

mike

ed,

you are in a tight spot...how about a different mc dealer or contacting mc directly and asking them... i am sure they have bigger alt. available since the same engine and computer is used on different/larger models ???????

a extra cap on the jl amp might help, but i dont think it will totally solve the problem (see below on the caps)..the jl's is class d (pulls less amps) and has a regulated power supply.

would really suggest the optima blue top batteries if you havent upgraded your batteries yet...

what is happening is the system is pulling more than what can be produced by the alt., so it it goes to the battery for the difference. as a result, your battery is constantly being run down (very low) and recharged... acid based batteries are only good for 2-3 run downs before they go bad (doesnt matter if they are deep cycle or not) .. gel cells (like the optima can be totally drained 1000's of times and come back 100 % (and they charge more quickly than traditional gel cells)

a cap should help..in fact 2,3,4,5,6 of them should ( generally - the more storage capitance - the better). but the basics should be covered first (at least 2 gel batteries with a perko, alt.(very important)..then caps if needed). this stuff gets pretty pricey very quickly and there are laws of diminishing returns that should be considered.

regards,

mike

How many amps would a system have to pull to drain a bettery that quickly??? You have to figure the alt. is producing at least 50-60???

the sub amp is capable of pulling 40-50 amps by itself !!!!!

recently upgraded to 2 zapco 350 monoblocs(added 1) on the front speakers and a jl 500/1 for the subs (optima yellow ) in my car (50 amps)...

after 2 months my 50 amp alternator is burned out ( i drive a 2004 6 cylinder- i conclude that that extra amp was too much and my alt. couldnt keep up). had no problem with a single zapco 350/ jl 500/1 or jl300/2 & 500/1

this doesnt surprise me since i have run bigger systems than this and the alt. is the first to go (assuming you have gel cell batteries)once you get in the 1000 watt range you need 100-150 amp alt and 2 batteries.

was talking to a bu owner (geoff maus) and he added a second 100 amp alt..now that is very, very cool.

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 11, 2005)

the caps are designed to even out the load your batts and amps take when it hits hard. its not going to affect you draw over a period of time

Ed who installed your system, because somthing dosent sound right I have the same questions as adam c.
Your system should have all least 2 batterys for the stereo, with a solonoid to isolate the power The more battery power the better. The more batter power the less you need to depend on your alt. If you dont mind running your boat the 2 will work this also depends on what equipment your running. Assuming your batterys are good I sure would like to know what system drained your batterys in 15 min.

Invest in a H.O. alternator, Most dealers will all say the same thing void warrenty ect, If I was a dealer I would say the same thing to, The way I have seen some people hook things up its no wonder they have problems,

Ed a cap is not going to solve your problem so dont worry about one now. give us some more info

Big Ed,
I have been where you are now. My stereo with over 2000 Watts RMS (real, not hyped “peak”) will draw over 165 amps – as measured with a Fluke digital current meter. You add the electrical draw for the boat and the other accessories, and you can quickly get over 200 amps of draw. I added extra batteries – four Optima blue tops – three deep cycle and one starting (Optima blue tops come in both starting and deep cycle – they are internally different, one has a dark grey base, the other has a light grey base.) The extra batteries allowed me to play the stereo for a longer time before the batteries got low – but it did not solve the real problem. The real problem is more amps are being used than are being produced by the alternator.

The next thing I tried was to add a big amperage alternator. Because my boat uses a single V belt, the 160 amp alternator I tried caused the belt to slip and burn. I tried several top quality belts, and adjusted the belt every time I used the boat – what a pain!

When I finally got fed up with that hassle, I decided to really fix this issue once and for all. I ordered two 105 amp Prestolite marine alternators, a Hellroaring isolator, big gauge wiring, and distribution blocks.
I fabricated my own mounts for the second alternator, mounting it on the port side of the engine (the other alternator is mounted in the stock location on the starboard side). I made my own charging system wire harness. I designed the charging system to incorporate the Hellroaring isolator to separate the stereo system from the rest of the boat, and to be “fail safe – redundant”. There are no switches to remember to turn on or off. If the stereo batteries are drained completely, they cannot drain the starting battery (even if the key were left on).
This is what it took to solve my power drain issues completely. I have tested the output of the two alternators using the current meter and a carbon pile load tester. The alternators produce over 210 amps – real output at less than 2000 engine RPM.
Voltage with my system cranked stays now stays up, and the stereo sounds better. Because the voltage stays higher, current draw is less (Ohm’s law) for a given output. Lower current means less heat in the amps – they are happier.

A note on capacitors – they are designed to provide a quick burst of power – typically a fraction of a second. Once you have a proper charging system going to your system, if you still have “dimming” during high current draw, like a heavy bass hit, that is where a capacitor can help. I run one in my system and I can tell the difference. Do not look to a capacitor to solve a charging system issue.

My suggestion, now that you have your system running, get an accurate meter and measure the total current draw your system has. Only then can you make an informed decision on how to make your system work properly.

Hope this helps, and keep us informed on how you solve this.

Geoff

that is the best description, diagnostic, and eloquant solution i have seen so far on this site...

props to geoff !!!!

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 11, 2005)

Geoff: Yes that a way to fix the problem, I like your style OVERKILL. Problem is most everyone wants a quick fix. Sorry there is no quick fix, You need power there is only 2 ways your gonna get it, Either make it or store it or both, People dont realize how hard it is to keep high voltage level's, Like Geoff described it takes a bit of tallent to get your boat to charge at the Voltage level's some big amps can pull, I tested over 200 amp draws with a amp clamp on Heavy bass hits on my boat. I know Harols SAN can pull as much as 300 amp's for short burst's so your talking some serious draw's.

Yes and some V belts can have a hard time keeping tention when they are forced to push max amp's. Thank god I havent had any problems, (knock on Wood) I think Eds X2 has flat belts better for pulling HO alternators.

So my suguestion is get the HO alternator and run 2-4 Blue Top's and electronic switching solonoid and a breaker and wire it directley to your Stereo batterys with 2-4 AWG wire.

Also get a fire extingusher

DAMN ED !!!!

How freekin loud is this thing?????

Do I need to bring Earplugs to come ride in the boat.

Good luck with it
Erik

Seriously, though, Ed... Geoff had a great idea. Very overkill, but good. I also tend to trust Grant on audio solutions.

This is what I'd do without going nuts. Run the two seperate batteries for the stereo. Run the isolator so you never run your boat battery down. This should eliminated the MC warning buzzer from going off if the system voltage gets low. If you want, run a capacitor, but everyone already explained they are a source only for instantaneous bursts.

I've never had trouble keeping my boat batteries charged, but I think part of the solution is that I tend only to run the system loud when we have a rider behind the boat. A huge system will rapidly kill batteries if you have no charging system in operation (ie engine not running). Leaving the boat running (even reving in neutral) between riders when the system volume is low may also help. The key is to be able to keep your average charging over your average consumption. Sometimes people forget that an idling amp wont draw much current. Ambient bursts are what draws a lot. Heavy metal music pushes amps harder than rap because it is more continuously near peak volume.

I dont think I explained anything, but I'm just saying that a properly designed system takes into account not only your system, but also you listening habits. Good luck. Get a hold of me if you want to talk directly (J-rods got my number). This stuff is what my brother does for a living so he could get you any info you need.

Peace.

Grant,
I would not consider my system “overkill” in the slightest. My two alternators produce only slightly more current than my boat and stereo can use. If I were to add even one more amp, or upsize one of my sub amps, I would consider upgrading my charging system even more. When I spend a week at Lake Powell or Mead, I cannot “plug in” and charge my bank of batteries each night. My current charging system allows me to not have to hook up a charger every night. I built my system for how I use my boat.

As Grant said, there is the option of more “storage” of power. I have a friend in Havasu with a Party Barge boat. His stereo system makes our tiny systems look like floating walkman stereos. He is well over 20,000 real watts of ear splitting power. Last I checked, he had ten 12” subs and a bunch of mid’s and tweet’s. He doesn’t even bother to hook his stereo batteries to the boat electrical system. He has twenty or more huge 6 volt golf cart batteries. The thing will play all day off the batteries. He pulls the boat out every night, and charges the batteries using an industrial charger. By morning, he is ready to do it again. I bet his battery pack weighs almost as much as my VLX (just kidding).

One more thing. If you are spending a bunch of $ already, spend a few more and go with the Hellroaring isolator – money well spent. Much better than a solenoid. If you use a solenoid, and the stereo batteries get run down, when the key is tuned on, the “dead” battery bank will be competing with the engine’s starter for power – very bad. The next issue is the voltage drop/surge when the solenoid kicks in. This is bad for the rest of the electronics on the boat. The Hellroaring isolator senses the charge in the house battery and the charge in the stereo batteries. It will then bring the starter battery up to a set charge, then it will start a “soft charge” on the stereo batteries. When the main battery is “fully” charged, it will then send all available current from the alternator to fully charge the stereo batteries. I have over simplified this a bit, just to convey the idea of how the Hellroaring isolator is worlds better. Check out http://www.hellroaring.com/ for a better explanation.

Geoff

Man you guys are giving me great responses!!!Thanks Geoff,Grant,Evan,Mike and every body else I failed to mention.
My boat batteries might not be the greatest,when I bought the boat back in April with the 2 Clarion amps it comes with and after a while with the boat not running it would beep.
I hooked up the system myself and definetly wasn't the first time.
The system is hooked up properly the thing was is I had it pumping and never had a rider behind the boat so the rpm's never were consistantly up so the volts just dropped every bass line!

As far as how many amps I'm drawing...not sure I need to get a reading!

come on guys!!Any other ideas?Got some great responses but any other input would be greatly appreciated,even if you wanna confirm wkat a different person said!

So far,If I can get another alt mounted on the other side and keep it completly saparate from the boats electrical...That's what I'll do,just need to verify with my dealer and verify that I can get the other alt mounted safely without the bracket or any of the bolts breaking!!
Estimated amp draw is in 320 range!!

Also do I get the bluetops with the dark grey bottom or the light grey bottom?

Thanks guys in advance!!!

i dont think geoffs system is overkill....

it is one of the best solutions i have heard of and solves the problem of running/storing 4 batteries in a confined space (my humble opinion- please take with a grain of salt..)so instad of 4 batteries, you are down to 2...

it is a all encompassing solution to run 2000-3000 watts and not ever,ever,ever worry about recharging your batteries or alt. whine..not to mention you dont have to worry about burning out your $$$ ho altenator which i have seen and have experienced myself..

if you weigh out the the cost of 2 batteries(on top of the 2 batteries) and some caps vs. a extra alt., you are probabley at the same cost of $400-$500. this represents a better solution that will work ( leave the stock 50 amp in place for the boat and add a 100-125 amp for the system)

ed, the blue top optimas at costco for $135 will do fine..

Big Ed,

I would not take my boat to my dealer to “alter” it from stock. Typically dealers have little or no motivation to change their product – no matter how poorly it may work for your particular use.
When you want a bigger than stock wake, do you go to the dealer? Most of us would not. We would get informed on what products are available, and what makes sense for our application. From there, you purchase ballast sacks or weight bags. You try them out in your boat, moving them around, till the wake is just right for you and your crew. At least this is how I did it.
For me, it was the same when I wanted to properly power my stereo system. My dealer took the position that “nobody needs more than what stock delivers”.
Indmar was a little more help, they offer a 90 amp replacement alternator.
I felt that to get what I needed, I would have to R&D my own system.
I did a ton of research. I made a plan. I spent a bunch of money. I put it together and tested it. The items that worked, I kept. Things that did not work are “filed” in the trash. I did more research. I made a new plan. I spent a bunch more money. I put it together again and tested it again. I did this till my system performed the way I wanted it to.
R&D stands for “research and development”

Stepping onto the soap box:
Why would you spend a ton of money building a 4000 watt(?) stereo system and not do the work to power it properly?
Stepping off the soap box:

For your question on Blue Top Optima’s

Light grey bottom: Marine Deep Cycle

Dark grey bottom: Marine Starting Battery

Check out http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/brand.html
For more info.

Geoff

Big Ed,

Looks like you have lots to work with here. One more variable you may want to consider, the internal resistance of the batteries. The batteries may be shutting down before they are dead bacause they cannot deliver their charge quick enough due to their internal resistance? I may be way off base here but I have a hard time believing you killed the batteries so quickly looking at the problem from a watthour standpoint? Were the batteries hot?

Keep us posted as you learn more.

Geoff: When I said your system was overkill It was a complement."Im Captin Overkill" Most people would see a 2nd alternator as a far out way of fixing a charging problem, I see it as a custom way of taking care of the problem although thats not the way I did my'n I like the way you did your's.

Mikeski ~Yup you are right,they weren't completely dead they had no problem starting my boat back up the warning buzzer was going off.

Geoff ~ Do you got some free time,maybe I can talk to you about it more or if you wanted a winter project!

Talking to the dealer when I wanted a bigger wake didn't void my warrany.getting a bigger alt. does so it's a little different!
Brent at California skier is gonna hook me up he told me that there is a guy that they deal with for these type of things so I was gonna talk to him and see what his solution is.Brent tells me he is GOOD....so I'm hopeful they ALWAYS TAKE CARE OF ME!!!!

Ohh as far as the batteries would I need a different charger for them,I have one of those big one that they use in machanic shops from sears!

Well I just taled to the guy at the tech shop for MC and indmar and he told me that I would need a smart switch(hellroaring)and a dual output marine alt approx.200 amp.
With just a isolator switch,he told me that my alt would do ALOT better with just one battery cuzz that's 20 amps less it needs to feed,the only drawback is that you couldn't play your stereo without the boat running.(for very long)
All in all.....Not too bad!!

ed,

what are the specifics on the alt ? is it a single alt. or a add-on for 2 alt ?

2800W system, 4-10's,Defcons on tower and 6-6.5's in boat, Stock Alt, 3 batteries. Never any issues. Runs about 2 hrs on sandbar then goes dead. Switch it over to the single battery and all is good.

That would be a replacement of the old one.Only one alt with 2 outputs and a hellroaring switch,one side hooked up to the regular boat accessories and the other output for the stereo system that does not go through the computer and therefore doesn't void warranty!
200amp alt with a smart switch to tell it how much power each output needs! It's like two alternators in one!!