Buying a boat for the best surf wake?

I think it's interesting that until lately, you never heard of anyone talking about quality wakesurf wakes being at the top of the priority list for new boat purchasing. In other thread I just read, someone made a reference to a "Wakehull."

At some point, boat builders began building boats (and eventually redesigning hulls) for wakeboarders. I wonder if we'll eventually see builders begin to market wakesurf specific boats. I can't see designing a hull specifically for it, but maybe we'll begin to see huge stern ballast systems to sink the back with surfin in mind, along with other aminities.

Personally if a boat sales guy tried to sell me on a surfwake, I would probably repsond with a lecture about how it jacks up the wakeboarding water.

jacks up the water ????? dont you ride "the delta" ?

as much as i like wakeboarding, i like wakesurfing more when the water is jacked up.. i dont know how long this infatuation will last, but i really dig on it and my custom walzer board...

Yeah...I'm a water snob for sure. We don't get a lot of bad water, so it's even more frustrating to see 3 foot rollers moving down the glassy river.

Tim Lopez left Centurion and is working with Calabria with the intent of designing a surfwake specific hull. I have a Centurion with an older ski boat hull, and have spent a lot of effort working to max out my surfing wake. I’ve never ridden behind and Enzo nor a Avy. My assessment of the hull designs for my boat and these more wake specific hulls leads me to think that the Centurion hull design is no mistake. I think I understand why the Enzo is widely regarded as the leading wakesurf hull. OK, I hope that doesn’t sound too silly since I haven’t surfed behind an Avy or Enzo.

Reconfiguring my boat from wakeboard duty to, port-regular surf, then to starboard-goofy surf and back to wakeboard is a pain. It would be awesome to have a boat that makes the transition with as little fuss as possible. I suspect that Tim Lopez is going to look in to this type of issue. I have ideas that have not been implemented and I’ve seen others. For me wakesurfing is huge fun, all I can say is that I’m sorry about the rollers. Some of the better local wakeboarders hit my surfwake and pull tricks like they might on a double up.

(Message edited by Bigshow on November 07, 2006)

(Message edited by Bigshow on November 07, 2006)

MB B52 W/ Triple Up Ballast.
Surf More/Work Less!
J$

"Personally if a boat sales guy tried to sell me on a surfwake, I would probably repsond with a lecture about how it jacks up the wakeboarding water."

Amen brother!!

I would be interested if a boat had a special feature for wakesurfing. I have been wakeboarding since 95 and love it but now I might start going to the lake just to wakesurf. Maybe switch off. One day wakeboard the next wakesurf.

i find it kinda funny when fisherman complained about our wakeboarding wake...

now, the wakeboarders complain about the wakesurfers wake...

I'm looking for a massive surfwake!!! I would pay the money to have the biggest baddest boat for surfing. Period.

3 foot rollers.... I'm going for 6 ft. Lookout bass boats.

i'm with you ben !!!


btw, any rollers from a x-star/x-45 is massive - set up for surf or not..

caddywampus, I have to agree with you. Skiers say the same thing about wakeboard boats......how can a wakeboarder say this about a wakesurf wake.....it's all about what you're into I guess.

I had a Calabria Pro V and got a great surf wake out of it..I sold that and bought a Moomba XLV while it had an awesome wakebaording wake I could never get the surf wake dialed in...Now I have an MB 23V and after moving weight around and getting my speed down....I must say I love the surfwake. The Enzo and Avalanche have an awesome surf wake alos...Malibu VLX can sport a great wakesurf to

Going cheap...

Mike - You've been to Elsinore (with the closure of San V., you will probably spend even more time at Els), you know what it's like there. You start riding at sun up, and if you are lucky, you get and hour and a half of decent water, after that it's done. Pretty sure that if someone breaks out a wakesurfer at sun up, that person could be beaten until dead by anyone on the lake at that time, it would stand up in a court of law as a mercy killing/justifiable homicide, and the assailants hailed as heros....Save the wakesurfing 'til at least 8:30am...

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on November 08, 2006)

Ben and everyone else, please be careful with both your wakeboard wake and your wakesurf wakes. I frequently stop a wakesurfing run, wait to start one or head the opposite direction to avoid swamping other boats. A handful of fishermen complaints can cause a lot of trouble.

in the case of elsie...i would have to agree with you... i promise i will not set up for surf til the water gets bad....

when it does, i'll set up for surf and go in the channel...

So a wakesurf hull is being designed. Interesting.


I definitely don't want to start a surf / wakeboarding war. The problem is.. Wakeboard wakes seem to move to the side of the channel and dissapate. Surf wakes roll straight down the channel.

I don't know about that..I've experienced some pretty big rollers from xstars wakeboard wakes....

I'm pretty courteous to other boaters when surfing. And certainly don't want to hurt anyone. However, I constantly want my wake to get bigger.

There have been a couple times where I've watched some speed boats get absolutely rocked by my rollers. They were going fast and seems like not paying attention if they tried to take on those rollers. Beer and bottles and people in the front of their boat got it pretty good.

Question: that would be their fault wouldn't it? Also, what about bass fisherman that come in to your cove or area after you've been there for 4 hours?

CLubmyke, coming next week?

bass fisherman are the biggest group of whiners I have seen on the water...there have been many instances where we have paid for the course and they are back there complaining about the rollers (am I not getting it ? we paid for the course, they didnt)..

will call you about next week..surfs up !!!

Ben, Sounds like you've got it right. I've seen bass boats go air borne off my wake, they should know better, there's not a lot I can do if they hit my wake going 50. I try to work around boats at rest and tiny aluminum fishing boats, and have less sympathy for the 300 hp bass boats, I also have to worry about sculling shells, but the sculler’s don’t whine it’s the fishermen.

I've had my boat so slammed for wakesurfing that drivers on the overhead bridge have call 911 on me; sending police helicopters out to "rescue us".

I’ve seen some pretty impressive wakes from a lot of different boats. Some people by 30+ foot Baja’s, meant for Lake Eire and spin them around smaller reservoirs and do nothing but run from end to end on these small lakes seems point less, well to each there own. If you get a 6-foot surf wake be sure to post pictures

"when it does, i'll set up for surf and go in the channel..." Dude, by keeping on the main lake when it's rolled/blown out, you get to have all the surf fun you want, and also have the respect of the people trying to wakeboard in the channel for not wrecking the smoother water there.

FWIW - It's my understanding that in most states, you are responsible for your own wake. If your wake swamps a canoe, takes out a bass boat doing 50, or a wakeboard boat with 500lbs in the bow, there may be some contributing factors from the others, but you may be liable. Another reason to be cognitive of how/when/where to surf.

"I'm pretty courteous to other boaters when surfing. And certainly don't want to hurt anyone. However, I constantly want my wake to get bigger."

A good policy!!

jeff,

u want a bigger wake? your wake is HUGE !!!! and very clean...I wish my 211 would do what your 210 does..

we'll wake board and then surf (we did last summer). It has never caused a problem or any complaints when we rented a spot in the channel (in fact, the group in the front channel were watersking....we also drop at the end)....surfing in the channel is pretty good and I don't mind dropping the money for good water...

btw, when the main body gets blown out, it is pretty bad...we can't even surf in it..

It's cool. Didn't know it could get too bad to surf. Usually, that's the only time we surf, when it's too bad to wakeboard, or when it's too dark (night surfing is good).

I got stopped by the patrol guy because several fisherman and an old lady on the dock all complained about my wake. It really wasn't that big, I didn' have ballast going and I stayed the legal distance away (150ft) but I still got stopped. The rescue ranger told me I was responsible for any damage caused by my wake. So even though you can be way outside the no wake zone or far from other boats, keep an eye on your wake, others are. BTW- the surf wake on the 247 is killer. Find some of the pics on here of them, truly the best.

nice profile pic Myke.

I just sent you email.

wakesurfing is for big wide open lakes and windblown choppy water, anyone who surfs in a narrow smooth waterway should get a talking too.

Thats exactly the time we surf... after the wakeboard sets in the morning when the wind picks up, before the wind dies down in the evening, or under the moonilight after the final wake set

I was shocked to see JRod, the surf critic, starting this topic!

I gotta agree with jarrod and others, it is pretty annoying. The rollers can be horrible. Most of the times the guys doing it are pretty good about it, but it's hard to control 4 foot rollers

Let me just say...Tiges 22Ve makes the most beautiful surf wake I have ever layed my eyes on. Being in the industry as long as I have, I have surfed behind everything and although each manufacturer has there high points, TIGE IS THE BEST ALL AROUND SURF WAKE, not weight sensitive, not to steep, its long with a great shape and massive...I hope all of you have the oppurtunity to try.
WAKESURF YES WAKEBOARD NO
J/K

I've seen the surf wakes of lots of boats. The boat that seems to make the best surf wake with the least amount of work/weight shifting are the Centurions. The Avalanche wake seems to get bigger with less weight than my X-Star. Although when you shift 1700lbs to one corner of the X-Star the surf wake gets enourmous.

Wouldn't be surprised to see surf-specific boats in 2008. I personally know four people that bought boats to surf--not wakeboard. As for the wakes--Surf wakes seem to disapate much faster than wakeboard wakes. Plus surfing doesn't need smooth water, everyone I know surfs in areas where wakeboarders would dread riding. (Main channels on Saturday afternoon, etc.)

Funny, I can't seem to find any laws or rules giving wakeboarding precedence over other water sports. If I buy I boat to wakesurf I'm going to do it when and where I want whether people are wakeboarding or not. If we lived by your mantra everyone would still be waterskiing behind 6 inch wakes.

(Message edited by CAskimmer on November 11, 2006)

Mark - What kind of boats do you carry at VS Marine in Atascadaro? I usually refer people in that area to Xtreme Marine, they've always gone above & beyond when it comes to customer service!!

Sean - Everyone on my lake thanks you for being an ass somewhere else, bet you make a lot of friends out there. You might think about Ben's policy "I'm pretty courteous to other boaters when surfing. And certainly don't want to hurt anyone. However, I constantly want my wake to get bigger." He sounds like he knows what he's doing.

(Message edited by mrs_porkchops on November 11, 2006)

I find it funny, when I started to snowboard all the skiers complained about us tearing up the snow. Without snowboarders, most ski resorts and other businesses would have gone out of business. When wakeboarding came into the pictures all the skiers complained about them tearing up the water. Without wakeboarders, watersports would have died. Now the wakeboarders are biatching about surfers wakes. People just never learn. Wakesurfing is older than wakeboarding, however and as many people get older (and they are the ones that can afford boats) they will turn to surfing, they will be the ones to continue the watersports trend. Let quit the hate and let everyone do what they want. I love to wakeboard and surf but I find that 90% of wakeboarders are the ones that cause the problems not wakesurfers. I do not see many power turning wakesurfers.

Calabria makes a great wakesurf boat!

(Message edited by tomcalabria on November 12, 2006)

"however and as many people get older (and they are the ones that can afford boats) they will turn to surfing"

...That is pretty much how I see it. Full time wakesurfers are either wakeboarders who have wrecked themselves badly (as Mike and Ben have done), or they never sacked up to wakeboard in the first place...

"I love to wakeboard and surf but I find that 90% of wakeboarders are the ones that cause the problems not wakesurfers."

...Have had relatively few problems with wakesurfer, mostly because Mike (and the other surfers we see) is/are pretty damn smart/cool/respectful (they try to avoid messing up the smooth water when boarders/skiers are using, when possible). BTW - as wakeboarders we try to be kind to the skiers in our area, take turns in the line, look for other spots when possible, not throw D-up rollers into their course. Have yet to hear (in 10+ years) one complain about that...

"I do not see many power turning wakesurfers."

Wakesurfing is one big powerturn...


Tom - Are you the one surfing twins, screwing it up for J-Rod?


FWIW - The one big problem we had with a wakesurfer: Were riding Mead on a mildly breezy day, not too bad but we found a butter cove, started riding it. About an hour later another boat comes into the cove and starts surfing, rollers everywhere. We cruise on over, kindly ask if they could surf the main channel or find another cove, because we were trying to ride the butter here. They told us off, laughed. It was a reasonable request, water wasn't bad in the main channel, but this cove was glass, we were there first. O.K. So we pull over and watch for 15-20 minutes, watch the line that they're taking. They stop to change, we start to cruise across to the other side of the cove. I get out one of my spare ropes, kiss it goodbye, then let it out, in their path. 5 minutes later, they were stopped trying to figure out they had managed to run over a rope, get it so tangled up in the prop. We had epic butter for the next hour and a half, inconsiderate surfers learned that they should at least keep a knife, dive mask on board if they wanted to be jerks out there...

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on November 12, 2006)

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on November 12, 2006)

a friend of mine said...

"wakeboarders that turn into wakesurfers either suck at or have gone as far as they can go in wakeboarding."

i don't mind wakesurfing. what i do mind is when people have other places to wakesurf w/o messing up someone's ride, but yet, they do it where it's smoothest. you don't need smooth water to wakesurf.

"wakeboarders that turn into wakesurfers either suck at or have gone as far as they can go in wakeboarding."

Or they prefer turkey sandwiches over ham sandwiches. It's not a pissing contest; it's a preference.

i am fortunate enough to be friends with ben and we hit the lake as much as possible. the nice thing is that we take his boat for surfing and mine for wakeboarding. ben does not wakeboard anymore because of the injury so it works great. in our crew there are two of us that can drive, me and him. we anchor his boat and ride in the nice water and he drives. then switch boats and surf for a awhile and back and forth. we take over a cove by doing this so it works well. its wakeboarding in the morning, surfing in the afternoon and wakeboarding to end the day.

I would like to thank Ben & Factory (and Mike 'cause I know how he operates) for keeping it real!!!!

jeff makes a really good point..it really comes down to proper manners...i have found really nice spots on the river only to be intruded up by another boat (i like the rope idea..)

btw, i am going to come out of the closet and confess i like wakesurfing better than wakeboarding....there i said it !!!! (i feel so much better.. btw i think joe is right, because i really suck at wakeboarding)

Why are some wakeboarders so arrogant? If you don't prefer wakeboarding over other watersports, you must be horrible at it or got banged up doing it? I usually agree with your posts Joe, but that is just a stupid quote and I hope you were just quoting a friend.

I started wakeboarding in the mid 90s after getting a little burned out three event skiing and just doing the same thing all the time, so I started wakeboarding probably 50% of the time. In my area of the country this was in the early days of the sport, few people had wakeboards, few people did it. I progressed at a good pace and was getting better everyday, but just didn't enjoy it much. By the late 90s, I was back to three event skiing 95% of the time I was on the water. My biggest issue is I am a big sports guy and I like events that can be measured on score only, nothing is judged. You either when or lose, someone's judgement isn't deciding the outcome, so I went back to skiing. Do I think it's better than wakeboarding? No. Is it for me? Yes.

Anyway, back to the topic. I started wakesurfing about 2 years ago because I am a young guy and like to hang out with friends that are in to wakeboarding and like the scene, but I could care less about actually wakeboarding. This gave me a chance to still be active when I was out with them. Is it lame? Maybe, but I enjoy it. And if I want, I'll buy a boat just to wakesurf and not feel bad about it. Did the guy that bought the first X-Star feel dumb. The guy with the first tower on a Nautique?

(Message edited by kstateskier on November 12, 2006)

(Message edited by kstateskier on November 12, 2006)

nick,

yep, your right..got banged up (acl, mcl, pcl - old age and the skate dont mix)

i really dig on when i find my "surf grove" and just get lost in a surf session(i really love when this happens..my surf sessions are up to 45 minutes or so...)

havent got lost in a wakeboarding session yet but i really enjoy the workout..

btw, wakesurfed in the elsie channel and got no complaints..

"Why are some wakeboarders so arrogant?'

Probably the same reason some skiers, wakesurfers are so arrogant...If Joe's quote was stupid, then you matched it...

I think that statement came of wrong, and I apologize, but I still jsut don't get it. I mean you can ask a lot of my friends, I'm not exactly the most humble person in the world when it comes to watersports, but I don't feel one is better than the other. Maybe it's a boardsports thing, because I know skateboarders feel the same way about wakeboarding!

Sorry Joe, didn't mean anything by that last night, long night at work and that comment just kind of set me off.

Most of the people I wake surf with basically only wake surf for lots of the reasons listed already. One thing I can tell you about wake surfing is that it’s a hell of a lot more fun on glassy water than on rough water. Just like with wakeboarding, if you are going to try to do a trick, you want the smoothest and most consistent approach to the wake. Same with wake surfing, technical tricks like shove-its, big spins, airs etc mean you have to charge the wake and want the smoothest approach you can get. Since there is no rope to rely on, you really have to hit it right or that run is over.

So, that says to me that the skiers, wakeboarders AND wake surfers all want the same water. And, no group has any more right to that water than the other group.

We were wake surfing in a glassy area of our lake one morning last summer and a boat of wakeboarders came up to us and asked us to go somewhere else. I just looked at them with amazement and told them no. We want to ride nice water just like them. Later, they came back and asked it if would be possible for us to create mutual turn-around points so we wouldn’t be sharing the same line. I said sure. I don’t want to deal with their wake just as much as they don’t want to deal with mine.

Tackleberry, I have some bad news for you. Wakesurfing is the fastest growing market segment in water sports according to the WSIA. Maybe it’s a fad; maybe it’s something that will be around for a long time. No one knows for sure. Given the trends and demographics of boat buyers, many of the people I’ve met in the industry are pretty sure it’s the latter. If this is the case, you are going to go through A LOT of spare ski ropes to make sure you have the best water.

"One thing I can tell you about wake surfing is that it’s a hell of a lot more fun on glassy water than on rough water."......Funny, the people I ride & surf with have never needed glass for this. How far outside of the trough do you surf?

"Tackleberry, I have some bad news for you. Wakesurfing is the fastest growing market segment in water sports according to the WSIA. Maybe it’s a fad; maybe it’s something that will be around for a long time. No one knows for sure. Given the trends and demographics of boat buyers, many of the people I’ve met in the industry are pretty sure it’s the latter. If this is the case, you are going to go through A LOT of spare ski ropes to make sure you have the best water."

Why is this bad news for me? If you want to be as disrespectful to me as those goofballs on Lake Mead were, I will save a rope for you!

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on November 13, 2006)

"...and just get lost in a surf session"

So true--been there! A great feeling.

TackleBerry, tell us what lake you go to and what boat you are in so we can make sure we don't upset you.

Tackleberry, not sure if you got where I was coming from, so I will try again:

You say that "people I surf with have never needed glass for this". I never said anything about "needing glass", I just said it was a hell of a lot MORE fun if you can get it. And, it makes doing tricks better. We ride in all conditions but smoother water is better (just like wakeboarding). I have a feeling that if a water skier asked you to stay off the lake or move somewhere else until they were done with the glass, you’d have a problem with that. I know I would. I was just trying to point out that there are easy ways to share good water without having one party leave the area.

Additionally, I was trying to point out that the current trend is that there are going to be more people wakesurfing next summer than there were last summer and if you can’t find a way to share the good water, a lot more people will be "disrespecting" you whether they mean to or not.

O.K. The people I ride/surf with agree that it doesn't make a damn bit if difference to them if they get glass or not when wakesurfing, as long as it ain't blowing whitecaps, it's all good, just as fun either way. Which is why some of the wakesurfing enthusaiast here get it & some don't...If there is an option, and you don't take it, I got plenty of rope...

So, if a water skier asked you to go ride somewhere else because they needed the glass would you? If the answer is no, I wonder if they should start bringing extra rope too?

That's cool, I carry a knife and a mask, but you'll eventually run out of rope. ;)

Seriously, this is the age-old conflict among different sports trying to use the same areas. ATVs/dirtbikes/ORV's, snowboarders/skiers, 3-event/wb/wsurf/fish/waterfront property owner/whatever else you can do at the lake, etc etc etc

I disagree with the "if you don't prefer wakeboarding..." comments - that's just a myopic attitude.

BTW - I can see that wakesurfing is growing, and that's cool and all, but the numbers will never be anywhere the participation level of wakeboarding. Two words: Visual Appeal. Pretty much why skiing has taken a back seat to boarding. When it comes down to it, what would people prefer to watch? Dave has not done a poll on this, but taking a stab at it, I would guess that if you offered anyone the opportunity to watch, and/or participate in any of the tow sports, that we would find that most would go for the wakeboarding. The X-factor in surfing just isn't there. More intensity, more air, more risks, that 14 year old hanging out on the dock and all his friends are dying to air it out.

I don't know, man, the people with the bucks to spend on a new boat usually make the decisions. That's just business. Why do you think the 211 has been CC's best selling model?

Mark - Have never run into a probelm with skiers in this regard, they always run the same lines we do, sometimes even take turns with us. Some of the surfers, on the other hand, are just one big power turn...

What, people don't wakeboard behind the 211? The 211 is marketed as a cross over. Old guys buy it so that their kids & their friends can ride behind it, and they stil might be able to pull out the ski every once in a while...

"I disagree with the "if you don't prefer wakeboarding..." comments"

Exactly where did you see "if you don't prefer wakeboarding..."?

Sorry, it was more of a hypothetical question (meaning what WOULD you do in a certain situation not has that ever happened to you). The truth is, we all have to share the water and people can either continue to believe that they have the right-of-way or figure out how to share. When I was asked to leave an area, I said no, when I was asked to share an area I said yes. It seems from your post that you asked someone to leave. In my opinion, had you asked to share, you might have been able to save that spare rope.

The 211 is one of the best surfing boats out there.

Tac,
If you were to throw a rope at me I would have to throw a .50 cal back at you or maybe just your boat.

In my opinion, you could try a little better to make it nice for everyone, not just yourself.

In my opinion I am glad that I don't frequent any lake that Red uses, I will have to let my friends @ AWA know to watch out for him.

I was paraphrasing, not those exact words...

Here are your words - sounds kinda arrogant, no?

---

quote:

...That is pretty much how I see it. Full time wakesurfers are either wakeboarders who have wrecked themselves badly (as Mike and Ben have done), or they never sacked up to wakeboard in the first place...

---

Here you are in a way reinforcing the point I made about 211's:

---

quote:

Old guys buy it so that their kids & their friends can ride behind it, and they stil might be able to pull out the ski every once in a while...

---

The old guys with the money are the target market.

And I know it's a crossover; I see a lot of people surfing behind them! ;)

I still don't see how my opinon equates to your paraphrase... Arrogant? How should I have said it then?

Of course old guys have the money (me being one of them, old guy, not so sure about the money part), but still the mass appeal is to the younger crowd. Have met many people who plunked down for 210s/VLXs/X... because that is what thier kids wanted. Who will have the money when the younger riders get to be our age?

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on November 13, 2006)

You might check my profile pic...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:

In my opinion I am glad that I don't frequent any lake that Red uses, I will have to let my friends @ AWA know to watch out for him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They already know about me, I'm member. They help me buy ammo for guys like you...

Actually I don't think your a bad guy, but I hope you were only making a wise ass remark about throwing your rope out. That is dangerous, I have repaired/restored two boats that have capsized, one was a result of someone running over a rope and getting it caught on their skeg while drifting then another boat came by and snagged the other end and presto a capsized/wrecked boat and lots of injuries

Don't be a jerk dude!

"Don't be a jerk, dude!"

You are the one who threatened to shoot me. Would you like me to forward this to the PHX PD?

Ya, sure, I'm sure they will rush right over. Also that was not a threat, that was a promise, if you throw a rope at me meaning to intentionally ruin my day because you were mad that I ruined your private water I just might shoot you, I would at least come over and kick your butt six ways from Sunday.

Very well...

Jamie--what hull is throwing that wake? Always tough to get the goofy side dialed on Bu's & MC's. That wake looks great for goofy side--I'm gonna guess a CC or Centurion?

Supra 24SSV with a 750 on the drivers side, 400-500 on the other and about 400 up front. As for me I would never look at just one thing when picking out a boat to buy. The layout in the 24SSV was perfect for large # of people and had lots of rear facing seats.

I think it may be an MB.. Here is a V23 with factory ballast only and 4 people.

I think Tackle already promised he'd throw a rope down. Lets see here, get told off and deploy a little Mead Mine (ie. lost rope) or shoot someone. Hmm yeah, nice call Red, that would definately be taking the high road. I don't see any court in the Union that would convict you for that, clearly justifiable.

So are you done thumping your chest now? We all believe you are a hard ass, I promise.

This is starting to sound like the "get along w/ your neighbors" thread in off topic.

Jeff - maybe I'm reading it wrong, but your comment sounds like this to me: "Anyone that prefers wakesurfing is either disabled or a pu$$y." That to me is arrogant and narrowminded.

I would like to apoligize to everyone here for suggesting tossing a rope to rid the area of unwanted, unnessary unfriendlies. Had I known the possible consequences of doing this to be beyond that of temporaty paralysis of the watercraft, I would have never suggested it. Again, my apologies.

Trace - you are right, it does sound harsh. How should I word this opinion so that I don't hurt anyone's feelings? How would you describe the makeup of full time wakesurfers?

Red - I would like to thank you for the inspiration for my afternoon workout. Nothing gets you going like being pissed. Nice burn going in the quads & hams. I would also like to suggest that you consider anger management classes. http://www.angercoach.com/ Also you should probably consider turning in all of your firearms before something happens and a 12 year old winds up bleeding to death on a beach somewhere for hucking a waterballon in the wrong direction, and you wind up sampling prison food for the rest of your life. http://www.peoriaaz.com/PoliceDepartment/support_technical.asp Good luck.

"Wakesurfing is one big powerturn..."
not if you know what you're doing.

"I get out one of my spare ropes, kiss it goodbye, then let it out, in their path. 5 minutes later, they were stopped trying to figure out they had managed to run over a rope, get it so tangled up in the prop. We had epic butter for the next hour and a half, inconsiderate surfers learned that they should at least keep a knife, dive mask on board if they wanted to be jerks out there..."
yea, they were the ones beings jerks

BTW- when I'm on the water I'm very courteous to other riders. I just don't subscribe to the myopic views in this discussion. I'm also wondering if you show the same considerations you demand from others. How often do you slow down when passing a wakesurfing boat on it's loaded side?

""Wakesurfing is one big powerturn..."
not if you know what you're doing. "

Would you please pass this info along, because evidently you are the only one who know what he's doing.

""I get out one of my spare ropes, kiss it goodbye, then let it out, in their path. 5 minutes later, they were stopped trying to figure out they had managed to run over a rope, get it so tangled up in the prop. We had epic butter for the next hour and a half, inconsiderate surfers learned that they should at least keep a knife, dive mask on board if they wanted to be jerks out there..."
yea, they were the ones beings jerks"

Were you there? What happened to the first part of the paragraph that I posted? Why did you decide not to show it here?

"BTW- when I'm on the water I'm very courteous to other riders. I just don't subscribe to the myopic views in this discussion. I'm also wondering if you show the same considerations you demand from others. How often do you slow down when passing a wakesurfing boat on it's loaded side?"

Does this ring any bells? "If I buy I boat to wakesurf I'm going to do it when and where I want whether people are wakeboarding or not." From what your previous posts indicate, you pretty much don't care about anyone else out there but yourself. And I don't pass wakesurf boats, I try to avoid them if possible, unless they feel like they have to unnecessarily (MEANING THEY COULD HAVE JUST AS EASILY SURFED THE MAIN CHANNEL, OR ANOTHER COVE, BUT CHOOSE TO) come over and mess up the water I'm riding in.

BTW - Sean, didn't you pm me a few month back about finding someone here to surf with? Might I suggest Trestles, that is real surfing. I'm a Huntington Sea Cliffs person, myself.

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on November 14, 2006)

I stand by my assertion that if I buy a boat to wakesurf I'm going to wakesurf on any lake I choose to but I didn't say anything about not displaying proper etiquette when there. (unlike others I realize the world doesn't revolve around me)

yes I did email you and I surf (and skim) the La Jolla reefs quite regulary thank you. - much more challenging then Trestles (In addition to being paid to travel to exotic beaches around the world)

and I'm sorry but I still don't think that having your water ruined is a justifiable reason to mess up someone's boat.

(Message edited by CAskimmer on November 14, 2006)

(Message edited by CAskimmer on November 14, 2006)

Well then if that is your stance, then you are going to have to accept the fact that is how you may be viewed by others.

Perhaps you missed reading the part where I apologized for that, and that my intentions were not to cause damage to either persons or property?

I went through this all as a snowboarder living in Park City during the early 90's so I'm fully aware of how I'm going to be received. People tend to hate what they don't fully understand or when "threatened" by something new.

Also for the record I prefer to ride with just enough ballast for proper drive. IMO too much ballast generates either a washed out face or a transition too steep for tricks. I also am very aware of other boats on the water and what my wake is going to do to them and make every attempt to minimize the effects.

I did miss your apology and either way I'm not looking for a fight, just the right to be able to participate in my choice of recreation.

I like how you added "(In addition to being paid to travel to exotic beaches around the world)". Is that supposed impress anyone or add to your credibility?

I can accept that. Maybe I should let it be known that I have never chased anyone (skier, boarder, surfer, tuber, fisher) from an area that they are already using. If they were there first, it's theirs, and I will not mess up their water. I would hope the same for when I am boarding in that pristine area...