Rode behind an Epic today

ok i had to see what all the hype was about. so i got out there and thought over all it was a pretty cool boat. rediculous amount of power, very spacious and vast cavernous storage. but the real test was the wake. its pretty much a SAN 210 on steroids. so there are definately boats out there puttin out comparible wakes but none stock. thats why i think other boat companies need to take a look at epic. stock ballast and its as big as a normal boat with stock ballast and several extra sacks. but that was without the ballast at 3/4 today/ every jump was like hittin a double up! i didnt quite get enough today and im goin back for more tomorrow! hopefully conditions will be better and we can fill the 4000 pound ballast!

Get pictures!

i got a couple pics but im not on my comp this weekend cus im actually in dallas and the comp i can load pics on is in austin, but ill get em up as soon as i get back in town.

I cant wait to see the pictures. The epic is a sick boat.

Why couldn't you fill the ballast up all the way?

Everytime I hear about this boat something is wrong, or they couldn't do this, or they couldn't do that. And everytime I hear about it, it is coming from a prospected dealer or someone who has some interest in the boat doing well. I am pretty tired of the hype machine that it has created. (that has changed several time I might add) It's time to actually have a product out there to the masses that backs up all the blah, blah, blah.

Well go get behind an Epic and decide for yourself Chad. Its not all hype, its a great boat.

I would if there was one to get behind. It seems the only people who have gotten to ride behind one are the people that have connections. Not once have I seen a "Check out MY new Epic" thread. Over a year of saying they will be out there "soon" and to this day I don't believe any normal person like me without all the industry contacts can go to a dealership and actually "buy" one of these boats.

Don't take my comments as me saying it's a bad boat, I have not been near one, so I can't say that. I do my best to not have boat owner goggles. Infact, if they had kept the price around the original 50k and also under 21 feet I would seriously consider getting one, that is, if they had dealers around here. I am just tired of the all the hype threads (without paying for that matter) that are created to keep interest in the boat. I hope that in someway the people behind Epic are in someway reimbursing the people who run these sites for all the advertising they do in these threads.

Edit:
And also I know I am opening a can by stating my feelings with all the followers of this boat by I am doing just that, stating my opinion's.

(Message edited by Forwaken on October 07, 2006)

Chad has a good point in the fact that not everyone gets to see this boat. I think the best way to promote it would be to get one out on the road and travel around the country. Charge cost, not to make a profit. I would pay to ride behind it, not that I am in the market for a boat now, but will be in the future. I think that's the best way to get word out for this boat.

Didn't they have one at Nationals this year????? I am pretty sure what I saw was an Epic. Mike Murphy help me out.

If anyone has the "hookup" in central cal, chad and I would love an opportunity to ride behind the epic. If it's a boat that can live up to the hype, I'm sure he would give it some serious consideration.

Here in Texas they have had them available to ride behind on different lakes and have been posting were they will be on Discussion boards like Dallaswakeboarding.com for pulls and no not just for industry people for anyone that wants to get a pull.

I am stoked that you liked your ride Kevin. Hopefully your next is even better.

I hear what you are saying Chad and trust me when I say that we want EVERYONE to try an Epic as soon as possible. But the way we have ramped up the company has only made it possible for several hundred people to get behind this boat so far. We had 10 per-production boats running around that all had their "little problems" and now we have our first three production boats out to two dealers in TX. More will soon follow and we hope to have proper production flow coming out of the new factory by the end of the year. But even then it will take a while for Everyone to get a feel for who we are just because of the sheer size of the wakeboarding scene. There were over 1 million new boards sold last year. That gives you an idea of just how many of us there are out there. We have towed several events over the last year and tried to show our face at as many venues as possible but the true verdict (as chad might point out) is when a rider friend of yours calls you up to come try out his or her new Epic. The wake and performance of our 23v is awesome but it is much more tangible when a person can tell you just how much better his or her new Epic is over their last boat and other boats they have been in. But we are trying our best to build this company into something great. Please remember that it was just a couple of years ago now that I was in my driveway shaping foam to bring this to life. http://www.wakeworld.com/getarticle.asp?articleid=296 It has been a HUGE undertaking and obviously I would love everything to unfold a little quicker but give us through next season and I promise that you will have seen an Epic at a lake/river/or bay near you

Here is a shot of Jimmy Wolf's Epic wake. Sorry this is not the best of shots. I hate posting bad pictures and it was an evening shoot. The photo is low resolution as I tried to keep the photo big enough to see the wake. but small enough to post on WW. I only have chase boat shots.

I dont think there was one at Nationals, the rep was there, but he is minus a boat at the moment.

I will be getting a ride behind one when the dealer in WI gets one in a few weeks.

Chad, Im very interested in the "hype" of an epic, and I have no connections whatsoever to that end.

Hold your tongue and reserve judgement until you see for yourself, I stand up for Epic simply because their goals are appealing to ALL of us, and I always try to support small companies gutsy enough to fulfill to try and live out their dreams.

Maybe just be happy about the guys stoke for his ride, and be patient.

I guarantee by this time next year the verdict will be out on the Epic, and we will all know the ish on it.

PS Hahn that wake looks HUUUUGE.

Hey Hahn when did you take that photo? The only reason I ask is because I have seen Jimmy and a couple of other local pro's ride behind a cruiser that throws a monster wake. If that is from an Epic boat that wake looks impressive.......

That is my photo and it was behind the AZ Epic dealers boat. Stock Ballast.

This is not that great of a photo either and the boat was pulling him out of the hole but you can get the idea.

The trough (spelling?) looks like it goes down about 2 feet.

Hahn, That is a sick pic of Jimmy Wolf even if it's not one of your magazine quality shots. I like a good underdog story so I would like to see the Epic line do well, I like some of the ideas that they have come up with and just like any wake it will only be proven after enough people have ridden behind it.

just to give you a better idea of the pics hahn posted above, i'm 5'9"....jimmy wolf's at least a couple inches taller than i am. does that help any?

Mike-

I am not bagging on the boat at all. Again I can't, I haven't been in one nor even seen one. Hell, I can even say the wake in the pics beats mine hands down, but I also don't give pics much merit cause they can make ginormous wakes look very small and vice-versa. I don't think I have said anything bad about the boat itself aside from the problems it has had in demos but that is kinda expected in prototypes I guess. I just wanna see the thing in person and get behind one, and not just "hear" about how great it is from all of the people that have some stake in it. (Dealers, Sponsored entity's, etc.)

Chris-

I am a huge lurker on this site with the ocasional post so I have followed the journey you and your team have been on for the past year and a half or so. I think that is why I feel the way I do, I have been anxious to see your boat as well, with all of the claims and a few of the riders descriptions, but there has been no product to test as of this date. I am sure if it does what everyone claims it does, overtime function will win over and your product will stand. I give huge props to you for taking on what you have, as I do not have the balls or the abilities. Congrats and I am wishing you the best of luck!


What are the plans for a 21 footer as I have heard you mention in the past? Is it nixed, or still in full swing? I could not do a 23 footer, I am just not in the "bigger is better" bandwagon. I still need stuff to fit in my garage, along with my cars.

ok guys i went out and tried it again today, in order to fill the ballast all the way you need perfect water. anyone who has ever run that kind of weight understands why. we ran 3/4 again today with a full tank of gas and about 10 people. the wake was ALOT cleaner but still about the size of a SAN210 with an extra 1200 pounds of ballast. i will say that maybe people are hyping the size a lil too much, the fact is its huge but people tend to exagerate and say its up to your hips, and thats just not true. it has a ton of kick off the top but a few waves or chop and it looses all punch but i suppose everyboat does. i found 3 things i would change though... number one id put fresh air exhaust on it, mainly to quiet it down. its rediculously loud i think. 2 id change the stock sub, it sucks. 3 id replace the entire rear sound system, id hate to rag on em but the speakers are just clarion marine and they suck! even the owner said he wants to get wet sounds to redo it. over all probably the best bang for your buck and i look forward to seeing what they offer 5 years down the road when they get some experience under their bealt. any one in the dallas area that wants a ride send me an email and ill hook ya up with the right person to get a demo. hopefully that cleared up the hype issue, people just need to chill and not judge and go get a demo to see what THEY think for themselves. then come share with everyone else, thats whats great about this site!

I never take offense to anyone's comments. I love hearing feedback and that is what WW give me. I am glad to hear your honest opinions Kevin. I do agree: it is the "best bang for your buck" The wake is huge behind the 23v fully loaded but I have never claimed it is up to anyone's hip. My opinion is that it is hands down the biggest wake with stock ballast and noticeably bigger than all but the 24v and the 210 when many many sacs are added. But size isn't everything in my opinion. I tried to build a very high table between the wakes for extra pop of the top of the wake. This allows for a smooth edge ALL the way through to the top of the wake. For most people this takes a while to get used to. The wake is just a little different. Most people are used to only using the lower half of the wake and even when the ride our 23v they do the same until they realize how much MORE of the wake they have to use. I would tell those that are looking to take a pull to not expect a waist high wake but to expect a wake with a great transition which rides long and has a high table between the wakes so they can now utilize the WHOLE wake for their tricks.

As for the speakers: we are talking with WetSounds to redesign the rear speakers. That is probably where that comment came from. They are cool guys and have put together a killer audio package. It is just a task to figure out how to integrate a package into our design. The sound is mostly muffled by the side exhaust on that particular boat.

The exhaust: we will only offer the side exhaust as an option now. I agree that it is too loud and the spray on the side of the boat only further captures that sound and send it back to the rider and kind of kills the music.

The sub: is awesome but really needs an enclosure. We might should get the WetSound guys to work on a sub package as well...

I do appreciate the feedback and know that every little bit helps us make a better boat, which makes us a better company, which help us support the sport and local riders and spread our love for the sport further and further.

Chad: the 21' is already in the works but our tooling guys are bogged down with molds making duties at the time. I hope to have something out buy February of March for you

What??? Wetsounds, that is awesome. That will make the transom audio 10 times better than what it already is.

Sorry for my post that looks like a 12 year old wrote it. I really can't wait to see some productions boats from epic and what they have to offer in the next 3-5 years.

Chris, you just earned a whole lot more respect from me man Thats what makes yall different, yall will take my advice and i have no doubt you will look into it. the dallas boat actually has rear exhaust which is why i suggested the fresh air exhaust since its only a 300 or so dollar upgrade and is made right here in TEXAS! As for the sub the first thing i said to the driver was it needs a new inclosure. i put my hand on the outside of the hull next to the sub and the side of the hull was flexing a lil, i know this can really screw with acoustics, i dont think this will be a hard fix for yall though. i think the other think that needed to be done and it was discussed some on the boat was that we think the amps need tweeked a lil for the rear speakers and that might help improve the sound. the rear speakers are definately inovative and once you got it dialed in i really think its gonna be something other boat manufacturers are saying "why didnt we think of that!" is there anything in store this year for other gel coat options? i really think that boat would look sick in solid bright red, just a thought. and if yall use that color and its popular and ya wanna send me a boat to use that would be awesome oh yeah and while its your best bang for your buck it still leaves no hope for poor college students like me lol, but i suppose thats why im in college so i can buy my toys when i get out!

Joe, you're not that tall....

Here, check out this link from dallaswakeboarding.com

Heres my opinion and you can read what some of the local riders have been saying.

I know my opinion is biased since I’m the new Dallas dealer but I’ve ridden behind most types of wake board and am simply a lucky rider who managed to get the right people together to become a dealer. I've been riding behind the boat now for several weeks and can honestly say the wake is huge. Two people can go out wakeboarding or surfing and never have to fill another fat sack and still have a monster wake. If you have a lot of people in the boat your better of running the ballast at about 1/2 to 3/4 ballast. The wake behind the boat without any tanks filled is honestly bigger then most "wakeboard boats" with their stock ballast filled.
My friend and I went surfing and had a huge surf wake in about ten minutes with the front ballast at 3/4 and the rear at 3/4. The boat truly handles better then any other 23' boat on the market. You'll have to drive it for you're self to understand but my last boat was a 95' Ski Nautique (19’ direct drive) and this 23' (V-drive) really does handle better. It's freakin amazing, AND it backs up in either direction.
The wake can be a bit sensitive when the ballast is completely full, but what wake isn't sensitive with 4,000#'s of ballast. If the water isn't perfect drop a 1/4 to 1/2 tank and the wake is still the biggest on the market and forms up absolutely perfect. We've had some really good riders behind the boat and so far it's pretty much unanimous, "this is hands down the biggest wake you've ever seen". And as far as the shape, pretty much a 210 Nautique wake on steroids.

P.S. thanks Ried and Matt for creating DWB.com and making a place for every rider in the area to meet and come together as a group.

Jess

http://www.dallaswakeboarding.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=7956&star t=0

I was thinking the same thing Joe....ive seen you in those Laker
warm ups that you got from some Pro.... If it would have been a windy day at the lake you would have blown a way...ha ha

ok guys sorry for the wait, i got a few pics, no good jumps which i was bummed about but here you go

Hate to say it but those pics dont do that boat justice.

well thats all i got, and honestly the wake is huge but not what everyone is saying, that or i have just ridden behind some massive wakes in my day. all those pics are on an empty tank of gas too, so add another 200 pounds to it or so, it was with the ballast at 3/4, and the perfect pass was reading 25 mph and i was riding as far back as i could without the wake curling over. what you cant see in the pic is the volume behind that wave. it amazes me that people believe size is what gets you high. its the volume behind that wake that gives you the unreal amount of pop. luckily epic understands this and they did it right!

From the pics, it looks like you are riding at 50 feet.

nope that was 75 feet

I was able to take out the Epic both pre-production and 1st production. The boat in general is impressive. If your looking for a plush malibu feel then Epic is not for you. While it is comfy, well dressed interior it is basic in its appeal. The wake is definately the largest factory produced wake on the market hands down. The power of the boat is more impressive than the wake. With the ballast filled all the way there was no problem out of the hole and getting on plane. The least favorite part of the boat for me is the vector steering. I see it as to sensitive of adjustments to assure wake performance. But steering the boat is exceptional with the dual rudders even in reverse it turns where you want it to. I still see some minor tweaks to make it 100% up to the so called HYPE but consider the amount of time that has gone into it verses the years and years the other compaines have had to prove there current boats. I know even the big 3 have had recent (in the past 5 years) design flaws that they keep tweaking to try and get it 100% right.

Wake looks really clean, but it also looks narrow if you are riding at 75'.

yeah its pretty narrow, just like a SAN only bigger! that and the rooster tail is alot farther back, which i guess is why people say it looks like 50 feet, but it was def 75ft at 25mph or at least thats what the perfect pass was sayin

It only looks narrow because of the type of lens the photographer was using.

That wake looks saweet! I totally understand the whole volume thing. Makes sense.

I posted these pics a while back on another thread, but thought people might want to see them in this thread. I got to ride behind a pre-production Epic this past summer. Someone also thought I was riding a short rope when I posted these originally, but it's either 75' or 80'. I think it was around 23mph too. Not very good pics, sorry...




-Steve

that wake doesn't look any bigger than any other good wakeboat with ballast

Ok, could you guys talk about this any more, my god!!! Wake me up when you are done. This is the way I see it:
1) Way "rad" that this boat was started in, not much more than, a driveway, a grassroots wake boat, so to say, that is cool, period.
2) There has been WAY too much free hype on this site for this boat, period. Pay up EPIC....
3) I have seen this boat at events, cruise by and make everyone say "oooohhh, aaahhhhh" and that is it. A pontoon boat with chicks with no tops could get the same result... Do, show, prove what the hype is about now, not next week, month, year.
4) I am not hating on EPIC, I honestly wish them the best of luck, just be real, don't queer out. I love the thought of someone starting the next Correct Craft....that is just a tall order.
5) Miller High Life is a good beer.
6) I opt for poor grammer, spelling, and punctuation.
7) Nor-Cal is cool.
8) Good night.

RD, be fair about the "pay up" EPIC comment.

For the most part, I see Chris replying to threads started by WW members and he is an ambassador of the company, this is a discussion board.

BTW, High Life is beer water LOL>

"that wake doesn't look any bigger than any other good wakeboat with ballast"

I think it looks VERY big in those shots just above.... IF they were not taken at slow speeds.

And if pictures don't do wakes justice....then damn!

You know Ive gotta say...Im not a great wakeboarder but I have been in many wakeboard boats and have boarded behind them. I have not thought one time that one wake was totaly killing another....I mean they all have there traits etc..but this whole thing about which wake is better or bigger is rediculous. Every wake Ive been behind has been fun, plus I have posted this many time on my old Pro V we wouldnt even fill the balast half the time and my friend Dave would get more height then most people on this site behind their Bu's Or X star or Epic etc...I just havent seen a pic that blows any other wake from another boat out of the water yet.

I've ridden big wakes but truly got to say that Epic's wake is massive!

I am with ed on that one.

I have ridden the black Epic that is here in AZ and crawled all over the damn thing. IMO, if you take a SAN 210 and make it a SAN 230 you would have the same wake and a reliable manufacturer. I can't speak about the other Epics and I don't know if the boat here in AZ is a preproduction boat or not but I hope Epic improves it's infusion process. The boat here has a black wrap on it for a reason, the hull is hideous! The fiberglass didn't get "infused" all over evenly. Also, I hope the boat here is preproduction, because the wiring in the engine compartment looks like those white chinese noodles that don't taste like anything, they are all over the freaking place! I don't forsee this boat being around in five years, there is a reason why other manufacturers don't put 4000 #'s of ballast in their boats and fuel economy isn't the reason. It's all about liabilty, just ask Mike Brendel! Epic's lawyers must not have been in the boat industry for very long. If you can't fill the ballast unless conditions are perfect, how many people are going fill them and end up sinking the boat??

I also have a question for the owner of Epic, why in the world would you name your boat company after another boat that failed miserably?

Red: I'm sorry the pre-production boat in AZ didn't meet your expectations in the fit and finish department. We knew that was going to be a huge issue for us as we entered into mass production and we have gone to great lengths to really "clean" things up and build a boat that will stand next to the other big names when you look under the hood. We hope that the fit and finish in our new boats plus all of our extra features will impress everyone who takes a ride.

As for the 4,000lbs of ballast question. Other companies have not put in that much ballast because their boats are not designed to handle that much weight. Our very deep hulls are designed around our ballast system and the resin infused hull is strong enough to handle the weight in even the worst of conditions or abuse. When I started this whole process many years ago I knew I NEVER wanted to fill a fat sack/seat/bag/or tube EVER again. I think we accomplished that. If you want to surf just fill one side, if you want to ride then fill the rear and front to your ride level, and if you want to burn back home after a long day just empty the tanks and whip around our nimble 3,000lbs boat with our dual rudder Vector Steering.

The name Epic just seemed to fit. I was trying to create a great new wake. To me: Epic means "Awesome/Cool/Great/BIG" and that is just what I was shooting for in this new wake. To be honest I didn't learn of Toyota's efforts until months after I picked the name. I liked it and asked others if they saw a conflict. Everyone agreed with me on the name so here we are "Epic Boats". I hope you will come out for a ride on our ten year anniversary Red

chris, don't you sleep???

So the AZ boat is a preproduction boat? In my experiance most boat builders don't use the "infusion" method because it creates large amounts of hulls that need "rework" or to be totally scrapped all together. I know the offshore boats take this into consideration when they price the boats, but you are trying to do it at a low price, have you improved the system that much? The boat here in AZ doesn't look like it was even reworked, the bubbles, cracks, non-uniform hull surface is easily evident even with the wrap on top. I know that Rudy Ramos of Rayson Craft fame had a method of doing the infusion process that was almost bulletproof, but the molds need to be replaced a lot do to the extreme heat and warpage in his method.

We do now have a Resin Infusion process that is "bulletproof" and easy to mass produce with. The Black boat in AZ was the second infusion we did in our new factory. The boat in AZ might have a few different things going on that a trained eye might spot. The old resin we were using was causing some slight rippling in the top rail and the old molds(which I first built in my driveway here in San Diego) had some "wobbles" in odd areas. Both cosmetic issues have been fixed with our new molds and the more refines Infusion process and materials we are now using.

And Joe...who has time to sleep anymore?

not me, chris. i've been living in my office the last few weeks!

Chris,
Have you seen the boat in AZ lately? It's a lot worse than what you are talking about. There are several areas where it looks like the outer later of glass is delaminating, it's turned all cloudy white and is "crusty" looking, it is under the wrap but you can see it coming out over the edges. Also there are several cracks that are a couple of inches long along the 90 degree turn on the bottom of the boat towards the transom. This area is also bubbling, looks like blisters to me, but I assumed it was the result of the infusion process. You should really have someone take a look at it. It did turn me off on the boat. Also the ballast system wasn't working correctly when I rode on the boat, the left side would fill but the right side would not. We solved the problem by having everyone sit on the right side. IMO, which doesn't really matter, you should pull that boat! It's good to hear this isn't the norm.

Red: that doesn't sound good. I will check into it to see what is going on. I didn't even know they had wrapped a boat down there...so I guess I am out of the loop on our pre-production boats. I can tell you that our infusion process from our first 5 boats to our current boats is night and day in almost every aspect. Dealing with vendors with crappy material and refining the process has been a lengthy,difficult and VERY expensive process, but the final product is an amazingly strong glass part that is half the weight of anything else available in the market today. This makes the boat a lot more fun to drive and saves you some real $$$ at the gas pump when it comes to towing this beast around

It's all black but they have black wrap on it in some areas, like the front, along with a very large decal. I rode behind it about a month ago. I also took my friend who is dealer from another manufacturer and crawled all over the boat at the dealer so I might see some thing that others don't.

It's funny how every other boat manufacturer probably went through these same trials and tribulations. But it just wasn't magnified to this extent because people didn't care and there was no such thing as the internet. Chris, sometimes I wish you would have kept this under the wraps until the official introduction. I know that would have been hard though. Either way, I wish you all the luck, and maybe some day I will own an EPIC!

Video of Epic interior

great video, good information!

Chris - I have a couple of questions for you:

- How many dealers are there presently and who are they?
- Can you disclose any further details of the 21'? I also couldn't have a 23' because of my lake restrictions.
- I have a dealer who is looking for a second inboard line, if you're interested, I can provide you contact info offline and maybe you guys could work something out.

Cheers.

(Message edited by jmuthafnp on October 16, 2006)

Not to beat a dead horse about the wake but here is a few likes and dislikes after my first ride behind it in Dallas. Like people said, hands down the largest stock wake. It is huge. Just too steep with the sacs filled. I rode at 80ft and with the ballast full it was like dropping off the edge of a cliff even at 25mph. It made it very hard to hit the transition often landing in the trough or flats. Many times it was so steep my board got caught in the wake on the way up screwing up my jump. 2nd set I broke my foot throwing a half cab roll because I tried to anticipate the pop and rotated low and fast. I have some video of a few shots if someone wants to see it, although it doesn't do the wake justice really.

Vector steering = badass. Turns on a dime. I have the Supra 24 and it is a pig to turn & often chine locks which I thought was something you just had to live with on a big boat.

Not super plush but refined and nice with the floor material being my favorite interior feature. Feels soft and spongy on your feet.

It was super loud in the cabin from engine noise. Not sure if that was just the EPIC I was on or if they all are like that but it had a loud annoying whine to it.

I agree with many in that the logo on the side it ugly but overall and different and asthetically pleasing look. My biggest question is will the servicability be there for these things?