Ballast Pump Basics

I am considering adding some ballast to my I/O (SeaRay 210BR w/ 5.0 EFI Bravo 3) but don't know much about ballast and the water sacs.

From searching and reading posts it looks like there are lots of options. But I have a few basic questions I was hoping someone could answer.

1) Do you have to drill a hole in the boat for the water to come in and out of? I read one post where I thought they were saying some boats can use the input from the waterpump (or something like that)??

2) Can you just throw a hose overboard?

3) Could you use a DC sump pump (like a back-up sump pump) with a hose attached and just throw the whole pump over the side (attached to a rope so you can pull it back in)?

I realize priming the pumps, fighting trapped air and cavitation need to be considered but I am just looking for an easy way to get things plumbed.

1 and 2) You just throw the pump over the side. the hose attaches to the fatsacs. When you're going to empty you change the fitting from the hose to the pump and push the pump towards the sac to get it to prime.

3) I've thought about that too. It seems like it would be killer fast. But you'd need something different to get the water out of the sacs.

Throwing the hose over the side is annoying as hell. Put the pump under a seat. Run hose through the gunwale to get it to the sac. Run hose through the bilge back to the raw water intake and tee it right near the hull. Done. This is the simplest method possible for semi-auto ballast. Sump pump is what you want, they are reversible and you do not need them to be in the water (called self priming).

Adding ballast is easy. The more hidden and automatic you want the system, the more difficult the task becomes. Easiest way is throw in some sacs and use an overboard pump to fill and drain. This is the simplest but as mentioned is a major PITA. Installing pumps, vent and having the whole thing automatic with a couple of switches on the dash to operate everything is quite a task, but the rewards are worth it. I am in the process of starting my system with 4 sacs and 2 reversible pumps. Tho entire system will be automatic with the flip of a couple switches.

wakemikey,
Would this work w/ a Tsunami pump? I use the sac and over the side method now and you are right. This sounds pretty easy. Could I do a semi-auto w/ what I have already?

Thanks

WakeMikey, you lost me...

I see where the throwing hoses over the side would be a PITA but I don't follow how I would do all the following:

"Run hose through the gunwale to get it to the sac. Run hose through the bilge back to the raw water intake and tee it right near the hull."

Going through the gunwale "I think" would be for your bow sac, and the rear would be for other sacs.

I get water everywhere when filling and emptying my sacs. I don't have a V drive so I don't have anywhere to put the sacs.

I see how he is getting water into the sacs, but how are you emptying the sacs?

TRD, ballast systems can be done with both aerators and impeller pumps. Impeller pumps are reversible. So you can drain out the fill line.

Aerators are faster, cheaper and have less current draw. They take a little more design and thought, but make a beautiful system.

Sounds like a sac and tsunami over the side is what you guys are looking for...

From articles:
http://www.wakeworld.com/Articles/2001/BallastSystem1.asp

Here is what I did with Tsunami Pumps. The reasons I did it this way: One way pumps are faster about 2-3 times faster, I only wanted one hose going to the sack, and I wanted it to be safe in case someone left the the fill pump on.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Chrome Dome

^^^ no vent?

Thanks Guys. I am installing my stereo and amps in the next few wkends so this will be my new project this year.

trd - yes you can make a simple system with aerators. A single aerator pump is cheaper than a simer, but you need TWO aerator pumps for even a basic system. Simers are reversable and they are self priming.

Self priming pumps need to have water in the line to work. So they must be below the water line or they will just spin without moving any water. Simers can be mounted anywhere, and if the line is all air, they will just suck the water up and power it on through the hose.

"Run hose through the gunwale to get it to the sac. Run hose through the bilge back to the raw water intake and tee it right near the hull."

Here's what I did: I put the Simer under the passenger seat. Drill one hole through the sidewall into the gunwale which is a narrow access that runs the ENTIRE length of the boat from bow to stearn. (see pic1) The pump is teed right after pumping through into the gunwale. The line runs both to the bow to fill two sacs, and back to the searn to fill two sacs. The same line is used to drain since the pump is reversable.

The boat already has a hole on the bottom of the hull. It is a large hole where the engine pulls its water from called raw water intake. It is a brass through hull with a hose that runs to the engine. Just tee it and make the tee'd line go through your bilge area up to midship. Here you use a wiring access hole to feed the line up through the floor and into the passanger seat storage where the pump is. (see pic2)

Just looked at both pumps MAX flow Tsunami says 1200gph Simer says 600gph. Two Simers is still way cheaper than four Tsunamis.

I have four sacs all hidden in a 1987 Supra SunSport direct drive. Only sac on the floor is for surfing. I have no vents yet but will be adding them soon.

Pic 3 shows the two rear sacs. Pic 4 is a close up of the rear ski locker sac. For the record I am no expert and you know what they say about opinions....






(Message edited by wakemikey on March 18, 2009)

Just to clarify what Mikey is trying to say.....Tsunamis need to be below the waterline, not Simers. Simers are self priming, Tsunamis are not.

Now that is awesome. You know you just got me in trouble AGAIN. My wife is sick of the stereo, I am adding 3 amp, 2 tower and 4 cabins w/ a new head unit.
This looks great. I do understand this. Thanks for the pictures. Great thread FJK..

How hard is it to wire to the acc switches on the dash? Do you need to have the toggle type? The FILL/OFF/EMPTY kind? My switches are just on/off.
Thanks

you can find the (DPDT) double pole double throw switchS from contrua on ebay for like $7.25. Which is a fill off empty setup.

Make sure the pump you buy is reversible to use the dbl pole switch.

You dont need reversible pumps to use a DPDT switch. If you use 2 aerator pumps, just wire wire one pump to the bottom pole and the other pump to the top poles.

I have not yet wired up my dashboard switch for the reversable Simer. It is on my list of to-dos. The pump comes with alligator clips, just clip to battery terminals, reverse to empty. I think I have one on hand, but thanks for the ebay info.

I built my system when rule 1100s were $25 each. So they were cheaper and faster. It's all about fill time IMO, so that's how i did my system.

Wired mine up like Bill's on DPDT switches. 2 switches, 4 pumps.

If you go aerators, put the fill pumps on a scoop. no priming issues whatsoever.

If you're running simer pumps, you don't usually need a vent. burp it once and you're good to go.

I am still lost, looking for basics here....

Talk to me like I am am third grader riding the short bus....

I put the boat in the water. There is water all around the boat. Inside the boat is dry (usually the way I like it) I have a dry empty sac inside my boat that I want to put water into.

How do I get the water from outside the boat into the sac. I have an I/O bow rider. I don't have any holes in my boat (again, usually the way I like it).

I have a bilge pump. I have a drain plug. I have a drain for my built in cooler. That's it for water coming in and out of boat.

Any pictures of inlet holes that someone has added?

If I want to go simple and basic to try this then get more extravagant later what is the easiest way to do this (to get water both in and out of the sacs)?

Can I string sacs together? If not, can I use the same pump to fill multiple sacs?

Probably prefer not to have to do a bunch of plumbing at this point. I too am finishing up a stereo install and a more permanent ballast system will probably have to wait until next year.

We're talking about a "built in" ballast system. pumps, lines, switches and sacs all permanently installed on your boat.. Its great for putting a couple thousand pounds of water in the sacs in a short amount of time.

The most basic way to weight a boat is with sac and a tsunammi type of pump. Put hose on the sac, toss pump over side of boat, plug in cig lighter. the pumps fills the sac with water adding weight to your boat. to empty, you attach the pump to the bag to pump the water back out. easy peasy japanesy.

THe built in systems are nice for adding a lot of water to multiple sacs very fast. then draining them all simultaneously. If you're out there several times a week filling a bunch of sacs, you'll soon go to a built in system. For now, toss the pump over the side and add some weight!

FJK, go w/ what Nacho said a Tsunami pump and your sacs. After this year is over come back and look at this again and it will make more sense. This is what I have now, and I always got water everywhere but got the sacs full and emptied and accomplished my goal. Now I may do a partial ballast system w/ pump or pumps and hidding the lines. I don't have anyway to put sacs for I have an older boat w/ less storage area. Good Luck. I am not sure how to PM on this site yet but I have a good contact for the things you need. If you can send me any email at rjreyob@yahoo.com I will send you the info I have.

This is how my system is going to work. I am drilling a 1.5" thru hull below the waterline as my inlet. this will T to 2 Jabsco reversible pumps. Each pump will T to fill 4 sacs, 2 up front and 2 in the rear. Each sac will have its own vent so I know when they are full. When the pumps reverse, I will use check valves so the drain line will exit the 2 rear vent lines. That way I know when they are empty. All will be controlled by 2 on-off-on switches at the dash. Make sense?

This was my plan for my 2 rear locker bags. However, I ended up not implementing the vents/drains and check valves. Instead, I just pump the water in/out of the hull (intake == outtake).

Some pics...






I later moved the switches to the cockpit since they were inconvenient under the seat.

Dane, nice system.

My current system is much simpler. I use a 5 gallon bucket to fill (and empty) (2) 21 gallon Rubbermaid containers in the engine compartment and I have about 200#'s of old sand filled plastic weights in the ski locker. Like I said, pretty basic...

The Tsunami pump would have to be less than a PITA than filling buckets!!

I already have a DC sump pump that I am not using. I thought I would try that. It would fill and empty the Rubbermaid containers OK but I didn't see how it would empty a sac...

I will look into the Tsunami pumps and a bow sac.

Anything special I should be looking for??

Just did a search for Tsunami pumps on e-bay. I found bilge pumps. aerator pumps, live well pumps, bait washdown pumps....

I found this one ballast pump:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-FLY-HIGH-BOAT-BALLAST-TSUNAMI-PUMP-1200-GPH_W0QQitemZ130293604096QQihZ003QQcategoryZ15272Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ht_500wt_1182

Is this what I am after?

Is this a good pump for my system to grow with or should I be looking at something different?

Thanks

Thats the one. If its going to be a full install, you will need 2 of these. One to fill and another to drain. If using just one pump, you have to change the pump from being in the water to fill to on the bag to drain. These are not reversible like a Jabsco or Simer. Pluses and minuses either way. I chose Jabsco because I like the reversible function and in my setup, wiring in 8 pumps for 4 sacs would have been a giant PITA. It will take longer with my 2 Jabsco's but we always have about a 15 minute putt to where we start riding that it is a perfect time to fill and drain on the way back. Figured with my setup it will take about 12 minutes to fill all 4 sacs. Another advantage to the Jabsco is they are self priming. So you dont have to install them below the water line like the aerators.

(Message edited by drknute3 on March 19, 2009)

Yes FJK that will fill your 5 gallon buckets & Rubbermaid containers

http://www.wakeside.com/category/boat/ballast.do

Kevin,

I don't actually use the bucket for ballast, just the Rubbermaid containers.....The bucket is my pump & tubing system. It is also self priming which is real nice!!

So, now we are getting somewhere.....

Lets talk Jabsco, Simer and Tsunami pumps for the redneck ballast system. What are the advantages and disadvantages??

Do you disconnect the pumps once the sacs are full? So I could move it from my bow sac to an engine compartment sac (if I decide to upgrade from my current Rubbermaid system).

If I have to disconnect or move the pump when the sac is full anyway, then the fact that the pump is not reversible matters less to me because I will be disconnecting anyway correct?

If you do not want to install an automatic ballast system then you just need the Tsunami pump & sacs. For an automatic ballast system you will need to drill holes in your boat for intake for the pumps & vents from the bags. You're pumps would be permanantly mounted somewhere in the boat. You would run wires from the battery, to switches & to the pump. Throw a switch to fill, throw it the other way to empty. Only with the automatic system would you have to choose between reversible pumps (Simer/Jabsco) or aerator (Tsunami) pumps.
If you don't want to install an auto system. Then you just need the Tsunami pump, fittings & whichever Fly High bags you want. You throw the pump in the water, plug it in to cig lighter, fill your bag, remove pump, put cap on bag. Repeat on the next bag. Then to empty, put the pump on the bottom fitting of bag, point hose over the boat, plug in, empty bag.....repeat. Got it???

(Message edited by pri3st on March 19, 2009)

(Message edited by pri3st on March 19, 2009)

OK, that makes sense. I just need the one pump and can use it on all or any of the sacs - correct?

I assume these same sacs would still work as part of an automatic system (if I decided to update later)?

What would be the priority of the sacs for an I/O? What order would I want a bow, ski locker and engine compartment sac?

How much would I be looking at spending on the sacs?

Stupid question - if I had a ski locker sac and that was all that was in there, couldn't I just pull the plug and let it drain into the ski locker then pump out the water with bilge pump?

If so, couldn't I do the same with the engine compartment sac(s)?

Can someone explain when you would or would not use a vent? I read through the entire wakeworld article Nacho posted above, but it doesn't mention vents in any of the three example systems.

A vent is useful....

1) to signal that the bag/tank is full
2) to avoid breaking something by overfilling

I went without a vent because the ballast bags I am using are stretchy and their full/stretched pressure would force water out the vent.

I also think a vent is required for a hardshell tank since you are replacing air with water.

Three unanswered questions....

What would be the priority of the sacs for an I/O. In what order would I want a bow, ski locker and engine compartment sac?

Stupid question - if I had a ski locker sac and that was all that was in there, couldn't I just pull the plug and let it drain into the ski locker then pump out the water with bilge pump? (my ski locker drains into the engine compartment)

If so, couldn't I do the same with the engine compartment sac(s)?

GD - so where do you actually run the vent to? Does it do to another through-hull? I'm just curious how you would actually set that up.

FJK - for an I/O, you want most of the weight up front. A lot of people will say 60%/40% or even 70%/30% front/rear. As for just draining into the bilge, I would just think the bilge pump would have a tough time keeping up. And if you are already in trouble for some reason, it would be good to be able to dump your ballast overboard rather than right back into the boat. I'm really no expert here though, maybe someone with more knowlege will chime in.

Yes, if you did the full vent/drain/checkvalve thing that I have in my drawing, you would have a lot more complexity and need dedicated through hull ports high up on the side of the boat.