HS 360

hey guys, i need some advice. yesterday i was trying my first heel side 360's. the water was choppy, but i gave it a go. every time i tried it i would pop, wait a second and then rotate, the only problem was that when my back was to the boat, and the handle was in the small of my back, i would go for the handle pass but the boat would pull me forward, and rip the handle out of my hand, and i would fall on my back.

does anyone have any advice for me?

frontside or backside? sounds like you may be spinning off the wake if you're getting pulled over. I've had the same problem off an on for years on frontside spins. It's all about waiting, you really, really need to delay the spin.

i havnt tried to 360 yet, but this is just an idea. idk how choppy it was. but could the boat have hit some chop and then jerked forward pulling it out of your hand? just an idea.

scott is right, but let me add that it is very important to pop and then pull with both hands!! so pop, and then pull with both hands to the oposit hip and bring the handle to the small of ur lower back and pass.

Jack you need to bend at the waist and pass the handle under your butt. This keeps you on axis.

If you are getting pulled over backwards, you are fighting the line tension too much. Squatt a little lower on your cut into the wake and don't make your cut quite as progressive edge, cut a little harder at the beginning and then let off a little bit before the wake.

mike thats not what you want to do at all!
cut progresivly and give it alittle extra at the wake to pop you strait up! then pull with both hands to the oposit hip so it starts the rotation and slacks the rope, then pass at the small of your lower back! this will keep you strait and you will not have to look for handle and using the right form will make it easier to take to 5 latter on.

it was a heel side, front side i think... it was really choppy, i got decent pop, i pulled with both hands, but when the handle got to the small of my lower back and i went for the pass i got pulled over all the times i tried. i have a trampoline and i've been practicing this for 2 months on it. i think it might have been i pulled to early... any other theories?

i think i need to try this in glassy water next time.

How was your edge? Try to have a nice mellow edge that really focuses on going w2w. You don't need to cut in like a mad man, just a nice short progressive cut, big straight up pop off the wake, spin passing the handle keeping your head looking for the full rotation.

Wait until you're coming down. Otherwise the line stays too taught and it will pull you back, or won't make it to the small of your back, making you miss the pass.

Wait to pull.

ok, thanks everyone. i can't wait to get out and try again.

Your edge might have been off too. What I do is cut out pretty wide and then just get a mild drift type edge into the wake, just enough to clear it. Then get a decent ollie type pop off the wake,arms out, pull with both hands and the slack is there every time. Once you feel what I'm talking it's really easy to get consistent.

the water was so choppy i couldn't get good pop at all. it sucked. but i'm glad i started trying.

here is a pic of the water conditions.

I would not be trying any new tricks in that water period.

my neck is really sore, but i just had to start trying it.

I wouldn't even be riding in that, it would wind up making me want to punch a small child. Which is bad.

Slow the boat down and start off doing some surface 360s, then do some traveling across the wake, inside out and one-wake. Once you have those dialed in, then take it wake to wake. This should help(and hurt less) while building proper form, technique and muscle memory. Good luck

I was working on 360s with our local pro last weekend. I would get pulled off axis by both pulling/spinning too early as everyone above has said, and also by staring down at my board instead of looking up at the boat. What helped me was taking a less aggressive cut, waiting to pull/spin, and keeping my head up.

I've been trying one for 2 weekends in a row. I get the pop and the rotation fine, but keep missing the handle pass. Its really pissing me off. I have had a few rough falls though, pretty sure the left side of my body is one big bruise(luckily minus the colors).

SC_LSV

i don't really get to ride that often, we go maybe every other weekend, the lake is 2 1/2 hours away, so when we are there, i ride, no matter what. haha

Okay pretty much everything I have ever read says progressive edge on a 360 is incorrect. Tall body position and progressive edge build high line tension which is great for some tricks but not the 360. And handle pass is much harder in the small of your back as opposed to lower. But do it however you want....

(Message edited by wakemikey on June 09, 2009)

All I know is that today I was pretty much doing what Mikey said without like, thinking about it. I was getting the pass and landing, but I'd either rotate out of it, or the line would get it's tension back and jerk the handle out of my hand, which is currently covered in blisters because of this trick.

And then I caught my back edge on one and so now I'm not capable of moving.

So I'd listen to Mikey's advice more or less. You just need to reach back and grab the handle once you get the slack in the line. You'll more than likely take it to the most comfortable place for you naturally. Just make sure to grab that handle and hang on. Always commit, if you don't you'll miss the pass and then you're guaranteed to fall.

I had a couple today where I almost landed wrapped... But would lose the handle right when I landed out of sheer terror, haha.

why would you give someone info on a trick if you dont have it on lock yourself ???

again, you are loosing the handle because there is no slack in the rope due to "just reaching back and grabbing it" if you pop and pull with both hands then it will slack the line and allow you to land and not be pulled over the front. you back slapped because throwing your head forward to reach under your butt to grab the handle is making it so your flat spin is moving off axis in the wrong direction (looking forward over the water) pop, pull, and put the handle to the small of your back and you wont have to look for it, it will be there every time.

exactly jeremy!

think about it guys, would you drift into the wake on any other trick ?? If you use a progressive edge on the hs 360 all of the energy between the water and board will be released when the board comes off the wake. Once you edge through the wake pull the handle to your back hip, with a smooth quick motion, while looking over your lead shoulder, pass the handle at the small of your back......passing it under your but takes longer.....

Um, well Jeremy, for the same reason that a lot of people do. If you know the principles of the trick but can't do it yourself, it doesn't mean you can't pass that on. Just because a person can't follow their own advice doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. I've had enough coaching on the subject, as well as spent enough time watching people (I ride and film wakeboarding for VT Wakeboard Club) do the trick to know what you have to do and when you have to do it. Not to mention the time that has been spent with people explaining it to me. Way to be a dick. Congratulations, you know how to do a trick, that doesn't mean that you can explain it to someone effectively.

And again, like I was saying, and like you are saying, you need to pull with both hands and generate slack in the line. I can always tell when I start it too early or don't pull hard enough, because there is no slack and you can't grab the handle.

Either way, whether I can land it or not, I know that you have to pop, wait, pull with both hands to your back hip, and then reach around for the handle, while looking over your lead shoulder towards the boat/handle/landing. If you don't pull first, you won't get the handle, and if you start it too early, you won't get it either, and you'll go out the back. I've had enough failed attempts that have either gone horribly wrong or have seen me landing correctly with the handle in my lead hand (sliding out or over rotating is my problem now) to know what works and what doesn't. It definitely didn't help that you were most likely leaving the wake off balance in that ridiculous chop.

Bite me Jeremy.

Also, I drift into the wake with a gentle progressive edge whenever I want to go straight up, which is also the easier way of doing spins, straight, going straight up and landing w2w, not a hard cut that could take you into the flats. If you're riding a short line, you can take a super mellow cut if you just want to pop and go w2w, and it works fine for a 3.

(Message edited by wakeboardern1 on June 09, 2009)

"would you drift into the wake on any other trick ??"

Yes. All the time. You should use an ollie edge for almost every spin there is. In fact, I prefer to use a variation of an ollie edge on most frontside off-axis spins as well.

A progressive edge creates lots of line tension, but you don't want too much line tension for spins. With an ollie edge you can also start pulling the rope to your hip as you ride up the wake. This helps create the right amount of tension throughout the whole trick (which is important if you're spinning more than a 3).

Nevermind Jeremy, None of us know how to do the trick. Keep on that progressive edge buddy and get back to us.

http://www.learnwake.com/samples/lib1.php

doesnt get any better than this^^^^^^

http://www.learnwake.com/
click on video smaple 1 on the right hs360, very well done instructional video.

"If you are too Progressive the line tension will build and make it difficult to pull and pass the handle when you get in the air. Too much line tension can also pull a rider forward if they do get the handle pass. A slow drifting edge created by the boats natural pull is ideal for this trick."- Learnwake.


..Weird

(Message edited by lakemiltonwake08 on June 09, 2009)

wow, it doesnt take much to get you guys stirred up does it....nick, i dont think i called you out on anything.....i was mostly concerned with the wrong info that was posted above mine.....and as far as my edging goes, ill confidently say its works pretty well for myslelf...i know were talking about heelside spinning right now but tell me nick what type of edge would you use on a toeside spin ???? if you say a drifting edge your full of bs

hey Nick and Mikey are those 1080's that Rusty does under the butt handle pass 1080's.......... didn't think so. . If Jack does it the way that your saying its just going to get him hurt and hurt his future riding. Once you start a bad habbit like that one it is very hard to get out of it.

Jack. You need to take a Progressive edge into the wake on this one. You need to pop strait up and take it wake to wake when first learning it. After you pop tug the handle to your back hip with both hands to get a little bit of slack in the rope. As you start passing the handle try to actually rub your nuckles across the small of your back. Reach around with the other hand and the handle will always be right there. As your coming down spot your landing and as you land it'll help to be on a slight heel edge to keep you moving out from the wake to help set up for the next trick.

The reason that you are getting pulled off axis on your back is because your not keeping the handle close into your hips. You can see it in the picture that you posted of you edging out in the water. The handle should be at the most 10inches from your front hip.

Think about it like this. If someone pulles you from your arm with it strait out like in your picture its just going to make you bend at the hips and fall over. If they pull your arm from it being down at your waist its going to pull your whole body forward. Sorry for the long post but if you do what I just said you'll get the 360 a lot eaiser and have less of a chance of getting hurt.

couldnt of said it better myself ryan!

Are people just making stuff up? You should NOT use a progressive edge for on-axis spins. A progressive edge creates too much line tension.

For the record, I use a "drifting" or an ollie edge on all of my toeside spins, except when I want to go really off-axis, in which case I use a trip-flip edge.

a drift cut should be used on all spins toeside and healside (unless off axis), but it can be called a progressive edge because you are suposed to start slow and give a little hard cut right at the wake to pop you straight up. but instead of cutting threw the wake it needs to be an ollie cut and really pop off the top to creat slack.

I'm going to try this in calm water. I'll use a combo of progressive and drifting edge, I'll just find what works for me.

thanks everyone for the advice.

good luck man go have fun! you will get it, it just takes alittle time and some trial and error.