Loudest 6 inch tower speaker

And again the wakeboarding community is at Peace! I love this community!!

Buzz,
Thank you for your apology as it seems quite sincere.
One characteristic that seperates men from boys is the ability to recognize the times we stray from our normal beliefs and/or principles. We've all strayed at some point. I admire those that take responsibility for all of their actions.
Thank you.
Now...back to the partying!
D out

OK...LETS ROCK IT! Looks like this Friday we have a group going out to Berryessa...whos down?
I guess the next day out is New Years Day?

Harold, if you see the Hot H20 Centurion (orange) out there, ask him what the loudest tower speakers in the world are!

These Chaos casings with JBL 8" 3way 330w(max) 110w(rms) absolutely hammer. Big bass projection as well. Or to follow the topic , JBL do a 6.5"
component that has 600w max (GTi series)

Joe: Im glad that I can read this because I took my boat out today the delta....tuning my system in and I blew my eardrums out....not from hitting the water too hard but from my system hitting soo hard....I cant hear anymore....WHAT???
haha.
Loudest in the world? ROCK IT!

Harold,
I'm not sure where you are heading but I have to say I like that JBL unit. Those of you that have followed the NVS life you know that I like the larger diameter woofers along with HLCD's. This JBL doesn't have the HLCD but I am interested in knowing more about the woofer and will check it out.
The 110 watt RMS is not something to boast and would like to propose to the readers that Max Watts whether it be RMS or just raw, does not directly translate to output performance.
Speaker failure or "Power rating" is usually set by the current draw before failure. This, in simple terms, is directly related to heat, or the ability to withstand it. Although different designs of motors can effect this in smaller degrees, the ability to deal with excessive heat separates the men from the boys. Yet, some simple physics can not be overlooked. The trade off that I typically see is in the voice coil itself that will use heavier gauge wire to withstand the higher temps. That's cool but comes at the cost of mass. More mass to move means more power required to move it. It's really a fine line...or art to balance everything together. In conclusion, that's why I propose the "Pro Audio" for tower speakers if the objective is to project clean volume to the rider. Car audio is NOT designed to do this.
Can you hear me now?
Harold, you're a funny dude. I just put my boat in the garage for the winter but if you have a seat open on the 1st, I'd like to take it and check out these Pioneer's. W7's I know but I have'nt checked out the Pioneer 5 ways.
The fall was unusually cold and wet, lets pray for a dry warm 1st.
D out

Duane: you put your boat away for the winter, Bummer, I thought we were gonna rock it on the 1st. Well I guess we can play it by ear. I know its hard to plan anything for sure. With us at the mercy of the weather gods. It seems like alot of people we down to go to Berryessa this weekend my self included and the weather changed my mind. Ill pray for good clear day on the first and look forward to hooking up with you all. I cant think of a better way to spend New Years day then partying on the water. Its just fun being out on the water rocking it when you know you shouldn't

Harold you "kook" in the Voice of Lill John WHATTTT

And the results are?????
Who has the loudest system???
English people PLEASE!!!
I'm dying COME ON!!!!

Grant,
Don't count me out on the first. I'm still closer then you to the ramp (about 1.5 mile). Just keeping things nice and dry while catching up on some routine maintenance. If the weather is good and the crew does the Snowbaord trip on Sunday (Jan 2) then we'll be on the water Sat the 1st for sure.
Ed, I'm not sure that anyone on this thread would have the "Loudest system" as that system probably changes monthly.
Grant, you any clue what might be the loudest? Jeremy Newberry I know has a pretty big system on his V230. (One problem on a SAN is that you run out of places to put stuff.)I don't claim to know any of the details but it pounds very well.
I would like to find the guy that says he has the loudest to the rider system though. As for me, I'm a bit more humble then to say I have the loudest to the rider. But if I found one louder, I could just add another pair of Entity 1010's and it would be very difficult to surpass.
I've set up two pair a couple of times for the purpose of doing a demonstration when the person wanted to compare the Entity 808 to the Entity 1010. I think it's kind of funny because rather then just catching people staring like usual, they start pointing!
I'll see if I can find a pic of this setup.
D out

so who has the loudest system this month.lol

Duane: Your right who has that loudest system depends on what week it is LOL. I would bet that compression driver systems like yours are very loud, Your really the first person to market and sell them. I have to hand it to you while everyone else is making and selling car audio speakers/in can's you went a diffrent route to make some real power. Im really suprised that no one else has steped up and copyed your idea.

Yes Jeremy Newberry's system. I havent heard it first hand but from what I have been told its crazy. I was told it had so much stuff in it that the boat could not get out of the water. This was from a installer that said they had to take stuff out. And that the system was not very well thought out. It was a case where they kept adding stuff to make it louder and louder, and the just keot stuffing amps and subs where ever they would go, Another friend said that the boat hit so hard it felt like some one was hitting you in the chest.

So Big Ed why dont you buy 2 sets of Entity 1010's and then you can have the loudest system. Im sure Duane will make you a deal LOL.

Grant ~ working on it as we speak

Duane ~ Willing to hook me up and let Big Ed do some real advertising for you


oh yeah Clarions speakers for sale http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/8/200698.html?1101518423

Grant,
Jeremy's V230: I've heard/seen it from down the beach a ways and was eager to see inside of it the last time I saw him but was a few minutes to late as he was in the process of leaving...maybe next time.
Compression Drivers: I too am a bit surprised about follow-on's. I know that Mike H. from Wakeside has been working on something and a sneak peak pic from the Expo showed a HLCD in one side of Defcon IV and an miderange in the other can. That's nice....but no competition for the Entity. Based soely on weight and size, the Entity may be tough to surpass. I won't say it's not possible (I myself am working on it) buy not easy.Thing is that the Compression drivers are somewhat heavy and good ones are expensive. I'll admit to not having heard one of the $400+ ones....it's just not realistic in terms of dollars. But, if you order it, I'll build it!
Anthony, Ed; I learned along time ago to "Never say Never" so give me a call. Who knows? send me an email if you lost my number.
PLEASE!..somebody buy those Clarions from Ant Bug! you probably won't be sorry....they're cheap right Anthony?
BTW, what was the topic of this thread?

(Message edited by nvsairwarrior on November 29, 2004)

I know this is probably getting off the topic here but, The NV'S ROCK!!! The loudest and cleanest thing i've heard on the water. To big for the Illusion X tower with bimini. I'm waiting for something smaller of equal sound quality to fit. many props to you Duane.

John,
Thanks very much. It took me a minute to recognize you, especially since you haven't yet updated your profile pic with what is now my new favorite boat. It was nice meeting you and your family a few weeks back. Beautiful VLX!
I'll be contacting you in about 2-3 weeks.

These Infinities have exceptional directional qualities , great sound at 80 ft.


(Message edited by chaoswake on November 29, 2004)

Shane Broughton (chaoswake), they look like the Evids in a smaller package.Same components?.A friend has the Evids and he can barely hear them.

Duane: LOL

"Topic History"

Its funy when I look at how long the thread has become and the person that started it BRIAN.
He dosent even have a boat, and in the thread he said he wanted to upgrade his tower speakers "Sony Xplod's" LOL LOL LOL

Brian you have "NO boat" you have "No Tower" you have "No Sony Xplod's"




Fact is Brian just now put a deposit on a 05 SAN that will be here in late Feb, It will be very nice. We told him if he didnt pull the trigger on the new SAN we would expose him as a undercover bass fisherman and his life here on W/W would be over. Brian congrats on your new boat when it arives.
"Duane Back to the topic"

michale detillion (michale) , tell your friend he needs more power to them (250 RMS)300 is pushing the limit , they can handle it. You should be able to hear them.

I second adam's comments, the Evids need more power if your not hearing them. The infinities above have only a 1" tweeter for high freq. First I've heard of them reviewed. Impressive they are throwing 80' effectively.

what's the scoop on these? any one heard anything about them?

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=35700

Looks like they must weigh 50 pounds each. Skylon doesn't have them yet on their website even.

The Infinity® 6000M wakeboard speaker system is precision-engineered to deliver high-output sound to a distance of 50-ft for wakeboarding, waterskiing, tubing, or lakeside entertainment. It consists of dual, 6-in mid-woofers and a 1-in CMMD™ edge-driven dome tweeter that are encased in an injection-molded polymer that's resistant to UV rays, salt and water damage

50' don't think that will cut it

Immage Dynamics HCLD's with 2 8inc mid's
these are Skylons Defcom 5 speakers $1600-$1800



(Message edited by whitechocolate on December 04, 2004)

I've been waiting to see these since mid summer when Mike Helwig said that they would appear in the Fall. Nice work Mike and team.
Earlier comments indicated that their would be some magic regarding weight. Can anyone share the size (width) and weight data?
Nice work.

Update:
Just checked Wakeside and they are apparantly 20 lbs each.

Hey Duane I changed my profile. What do you think of those Defcon 5's? They look a little big to me. Have you heard them?

The press release on the Skylon Deafcon Reference series will go out on Monday. The new Deafcon IV Reference is down to 16 pounds! The 2004 Deafcon IV was 66 pounds. There is also a new Deafcon V Reference that has two Image Dynamics 8 inch CX mid-bass drivers plus a HLCD horn setup. I heard the Deafcon V Reference at Surf Expo and was totally amazed. However, the final crossover was not even completed yet. Can't wait to hear the final version on my new boat. I'm in Portland so I need to wait until March to get my boat in the water.

The HLCD based Deafcon IV and V will start shipping in January.



http://www.wakeside.com/page/W/PROD/skylon_wakeboard_tower_speakers/skylon_deafcon_v_ac112g5

Mike Hellweg

(Message edited by wakeside1 on December 05, 2004)

Here is a pic of the Defcon 4's that are going on my new Bu. Boy, the 5's sure look nice!!

Buzz- The Deafcon IV Reference are nice and small, light weight (16 lbs for the pair), leave room for the lights, and cost $300 less. They have exactly the same HLCDs, just one pair of 8" mid-bass driver instead of two.


http://www.wakeside.com/page/W/PROD/skylon_wakeboard_tower_speakers/skylon_deafcon_iv_ac112g4

I think we will sell more of the IV's than the V's based on the value and great sound.

Mike

Mike,

Yea, I was looking at the 5's, not really serious, but definately looking. After looking at all my other equipment, and how MUCH I am spending on the new boat, AND sound system, and how much sound I need to get back to the rider, I felt the 4's would suit me more than fine. With the new Image Dynamics, and HLCD, they are going to kill it! Man, I can't wait!!! Both for my new boat, and the TUNES, which for me is one of the MOST important things on the boat.

Thanks for the input on the 5's. People are going to be killin' some fish with those.

John,
The updated profile pic is great. Very Nice boat.
On the Defcon V's I think they look great. As mentioned above, I've been eager to see what Mike H. at Wakeside was cooking up. I know he had been working on this for a while now. Good job Mike.
I'd love to hear them. Also, some are asking what the width requirments are. Mike can you address this question?

Thanks Duane.

I enjoyed our discussions regarding high-end tower speakers over a year ago. I learned quite a bit from your experience with HLCD even before you released the NVS systems. You may recall that my early reluctance with HLCD was harsh sound in or near the boat. You convinced me that it could be overcome with proper crossovers and you have proven that with your NVS systems. My early discussions with Image Dynamics also confirmed that HLCD's can sound good up close and are a much better choice for 85 feet back if they are set up properly.

Skylon did a great job with the rest. I have a feeling that all major tower speaker manufacturers will eventually offer HLCD based on your early success and how I believe the Skylon Reference series will be received.

I don't have the dimensions yet but we plan to get those on our website as soon as we get them. I won't have the IV's or V's in stock until early January, but I will get the dimensions from Skylon.

Mike

Found out this morning that the weight that I posted was per side, not per pair. The Deafcon IV Reference is still half the weight of last year's model (32 lbs vs 66 lbs).

Dimensions and more technical data regarding the HLCD drivers will follow shortly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having subs on a tower a waste? I thought for good sound bass had to bounce off something.

technically there not subs, there more mid-range.

The Deafcon IV and V's (or the NVS systems) don't have subs on the tower, these are actually 8 inch mid-bass drivers. They are still designed for 80 hz and up. However, four 8 inch mid-bass drivers on the tower do a better job in the range just above the sub frequencies than a 6 1/2 inch driver.

We still recommend a sub or two in the boat for 80 hz down.

Mike

Has anyone tried the equivilent of the Evid 6.2's but in pro-audio components? Basically two 6-1/2" mid-bass per side with an HLCD. What would be the difference in the sound heard by the rider if the crossover, amps and everything else was the same in the system?

A system with two sets of professional grade 6.5's (like the Image Dynamics CX mid-bass drivers in the Chameleon series) with an HLCD horn would be very similar to the Deafcon IV or V or the NVS system. The main difference is that an 8 inch mid-bass driver has more thump even considering a sub-woofer in the boat. It's like the difference between a big dog's bark and a lion's roar.

A professional 8 inch mid-bass driver is very efficient clear down to 80 Hz with less than 4 db variation from 80 Hz to 20 KHz. A 6.5 mid-bass driver would drop off way before that.

Bill,
You buy'em, I build'em. Do you think they'd sell?
As Mike has now found out, it's not just the spl, sq, or any other single facet of a speaker that makes it better then another in the open environment. Somewhere above I mentioned the "Art" of speaker design. And as an Engineer, giving credit to an "Art" is not easily done. But comprehendable when realizing that the quality of the output is really subjective rather then objective, i.e. different ears hear different things from the same sound.
As far as the Evids go, I still think they are a great value. I'm not sure if a Pro Equivalent would be much different the the NVS Entity or now Skylon DV. The issue as I see it is the HLCD size as well as the woofer size. I don't know of a decent HLCD that is less then a 1 inch throat (I'd like to go bigger). The larger woofer (bigger then 6 inch) is IMO a requirement as well.
Having both 8" and 10" in the NVS offering, I have been able to asses the differences in the two. While the 8" is awesome, the 10" clearly takes it to another level assuming proper power is applied.

D out (can't stay awake)

I agree that 10" would sound better than 8" but I have found that many tower heights and/or biminis would have a problem with a 10" woofer. We need to think of the tall people that could hit their head on a speaker enclosure that hangs too low. Some towers are low to begin with. If you want a bimini to work, then the 10" could add even more problems.

Two pairs of 8" is probably the best compromise.

Duane, do you sell more 8's or 10's?

Mike

Bill,

I've been runnig two HLCD with a single set of 6.5 mid bass drivers and an addtional set of 6.5 in cans. The HLCD's have no attenuation circuit on them so they over power the mid bass. It is very loud but doesn't sound very good in my opinion. The EVID's sound better but not louder. With the HLCD's I can't even sit on the back of my boat, the highs are ear piercing. With the EVID's I could. IMO you need at least an 8 inch driver to keep up with the horns. I think Grant has a good thing going with what he's working on. I used the same HLCD's. I still think he'll need to use some sort fo attenuation circuit. I thoguth one of the hardest things to do was tune the system . Trying to get a good overlap of frequencies was harder than I thought. The horn lens i used was the "elliptihonrn". this was an issue as well. It was designed to be inside of a car. So when you pass over the wake or move around behind the boat, you would hit "hot spots" of certain frequencies. I think it could work, but trying to sell it and compete with NVS and the new Skylon???? hope you have good marketing.

Mike,

Can you tell me where the crossover is in the new Defcon 4's. Is it inside the speaker housing (cans) or separate (outside where it can be mounted somewhere else).

Thanks

The crossover is inside the enclosure.

The crossover is specifically designed to keep the horn in alignment with the mid-bass drivers so that the horn doesn't overpower the woofers.

The horns do get very loud, but they are in sync with the lows.

Mike, Have you had a chance to listen to both the
4's and 5's?

How much of a difference was there?

Ken

I heard both at Surf Expo but we were constrained with how loud we could turn it up. The V's definitely have more bottom end, but the IV's would meet the needs of 80% of boat owners.

I am working with Image Dynamics to measure the db at 80 feet with 100 watts RMS for the entire Deafcon Reference line. We will post on our website when available.

Mike - You can pick up a cheap digital SPL meter at Radio Shack and the results end up pretty darn close to a full on acoustics analysis system for just getting a weighted dB reading. Naturally the latter gives tons more info.

Cool thing about the $50 meter you can use it from a tube behind the boat in a ziploc without a big threat of losing expensive equipment. Certainly falls under the untouchable "high tech redneck" version of engineering practiced "round these parts".

Awesome job on the IV's and V's.

Bill - The final production version of the Deafcon IV and V crossover will not be completed until after the new year. Image Dynamics offered to do full on acoustics analysis including measurements of SPL/Db at rider distance, frequency graph, etc once completed. They have all of the professional equipment necessary to do that right.

I will get one of those SPL meters from Radio Shack though, sounds like a nice tool to have.

I need to give credit where the credit is due. My role was the original concept of using high-end pro audio grade components and HLCD (horns). Even with that, I learned a lot from my discussions with Duane. He had already done a lot of research and testing with HLCD before the NVS product. I often read these forum threads last year and that is really where the idea came from. I knew that those wanting very loud systems were not satisfied with the car audio components mounted in aluminum billet enclosures. Some of our customers told us that too.

Last year I created my own custom tower speakers using two pair of Image Dynamics Chameleon CXS 6.5 inch components. These component sets could handle 150 RMS per component set (600 watts RMS for the tower). The sound was so crystal clear and loud that I knew the days of Kicker car audio components were just about over. Most of the car audio components are now made in China and don't even get close to the sound quality or volume of Image Dynamics.

I then envisioned HLCD systems based on Duane's prototypes. I also knew that Image Dynamics was a leader in HLCD, mid-bass drivers, and sub woofers.

This is when I recommended to Skylon to work on a new project with Image Dynamics and create the the Deafcon Reference series. Image Dynamics provided all of the accoustical engineering, components including HLCD and crossovers, and Skylon did all of the enclosure development, front billet plate, and grill engineering. They came up with the innovative composite material concept that reduced the finished product weight by over 50%. They also come up with the incredible carbon fiber finish.

As you can see the credit needs to go to Duane, Skylon, and Image Dynamics. I got to enjoy conceiving the idea of the project and then standing back and watching the pros pull off an amazing accomplishment. The great thing, is that everyone had so much fun working together.

Because of our role (Wakeside Design Studio), Skylon offered that we could do their initial press release that went out yesterday.

http://www.wakeside.com/news?a=skylon_deafcon_reference

Mike

Mike,
Again, nice job. And thanks for the mention. I'll send you a pm with my address so you'll know where to send the checks. 7% right?
D out

Size does matter!
Yes even with speakers. Since I was able to design in the 10" along with an 8" offering, and able to compare the two, I can appreciate the differance.
Like Mike, I too thought that even the 8" may be pushing the limits of available space. But when all the audio experts told me that I should use the 10, I managed to squeeze it into the design without having a completly separate unit.
But I was conscious of the "Headroom" and made sure that it was as close to the cross tube as possible. The Entity 808 has the same hang height as the popular "B" series speakers at 9 1/2 inches. The Entity 1010 is 1 inch more.
You may be able to see in the pic below how the grill edge is actually higher then the bottom of the cross tube.
Oh yeah, we've got some new grill options.
Since I've been able to compare the 8 vs the 10 I can tell you that the difference is notable. Not so much close up, but at a distance you can easily tell the diferance.
Then again, the 8's do get the job done.
Mike, you realize we will likely be asked to put up a side by side comparison don't you?
Will Skylon be bringing a finished Def V to the Pleasanton Boat Show?
D out

mike what is the lead time on def v's

I appreciate you guys thinking about head room!

Duane ~ Please tell me that I can now get these covers. Is this your new look? I like.

I second Antbug, nice improvement on the grills.

Talltigegy,
If I recall correctly, at 6'4" short of putting speaks up top does any other solution keep you from becoming a Head Banger?
Like Mike has already said, some towers are really quite low. The ZeroFlex seems to be amongst the heighest I've worked with. The FCT is amongst the lowest of the traditional ones.
Then there is the Illusion. I'm 6'0" and if I'm wearing a hat, it hits the tow bushing tube in the rear ('05 VLX).

The new grills are special order now but will be available in early January as an option.

D out

Duane ~ I will call you tonight to discuss my order.

My Tige 24V with the Metcraft tower has great head clearance at about 7 feet. I'm just a few inches shy of that, so any speaker is going to be a potential knot on the head.

I could still be OK if I can mount them to the side as far as possible and still leave room to walk down the middle. The Defcon V seems to stretch across the entire beam in the pics I see. On a narrow boat, they might not fit. I'm not sure the NVS is much narrower. I didn't see the size listed for either one on their websites. My bimini is way too low anyway, so the concussion potential of the speakers is not a real issue. I've learned to watch out for things.

Duane, I bought an amp capable of driving the NVS, the PPI pcx4125. Hopefully, its a good one. The office of budgetary support can't see the funds all disappear at once...you see where I'm going?? Sorry to be moving so slow. The new grills are also great looking.

(Message edited by talltigeguy on December 09, 2004)

Teddy, We expect to ship the Deafcon IV and V in early January. Skylon just needs the crossovers to be complete.

I have had a couple PM's asking about the light bar on the tower with the Defcon 4's that I posted a few days ago. FYI, it is the "Mini Light Bar" from Skylon. Available through Wakeside.com. Probably will get one of those after I get my boat in a few weeks. Spent enough already!!

Talltigeguy,
You are a shrewd dude. The budgetary office seems to be well in hand. FYI, the sale is over on 1/1/05
Yes, the PPI 4125 is an excellent amp for a pair of Entity's. I'm not sure if any are left at the amazing $350 price but it was good while it lasted.
Thanks for the feedback on the grills. The flame grill was clearly a love/hate thing.
I also like the grills on the Def V, looks alot like the Fishman Tsunami ones but without the spoke hanging over the edge (it would have been a rope catcher for sure).
Antbug, thanks for the call and kind words. Wow, a customer willing to drive 400 miles to pick them up (and get some riding in). Big Ed, you have an awesome friend.
Buzz, hope all is well with you and yours.
Happy Holidays to all!

Thanks Duane. You and yours also!

Man, I like the new look of the Entity. Very nice!

Gonna be a nice holiday for me and my EXPENSIVE xmas present!!

Happy holidays everyone!

Duane ~ The way I look at it is I am on the boat as much as Ed is and he is the one paying for the boat. I can a least try to help improve the best boat out there and your 1010's are the ticket.

MIke,
Can you tell me what ohms the deafcon IV's & V's are at?


(Message edited by JANSEN on December 10, 2004)

All of the new Skylon Deafcon reference series (except for the I which is currently Kicker) run at 2 ohms in order to get the most efficiency and power from the amplifier.

Now that we will be selling high-powered tower speakers we plan to add quality amplifiers that will make these systems excel. Most amplifiers these days are made in China and the quality just isn't there.

We are looking at True Technologies, Arc Audio, and Sound Stream. Most of these are made in the US and will make these new Skylon Reference (or NVS) sound loud and clean - emphasizing sound quality..

We know that not everyone can afford quality like this, but we want to make it available to those who know the difference and are willing to save up longer to get the prize.

I just had Skylon measure the width of the new Deafon Reference V. The total width is 27" each side.

www.diyTower.com just got an HLCD/ProAudio section added, great comments on this post, please share some resources that should be added.

Duane,
Your speakers have really started a trend. I would love to have a pair but my bank account says no! However, I have a few questions regarding the pro audio equipment.

How did you wire the 2 bass drivers with the HLCD and get all that into just 1 channel?

I am assuming that you ran the bass drivers in parallel and into a crossover, and then ran the HLCD into the crossover, but I really have no clue.

At what ohms are you running after you get it down to the 1 channel?

I am thinking of starting a project for a tower system and would really like to go with the pro audio equipment, I just don't know the wiring aspect of it.

Thanks for you help in advance.

KJ,
Thanks for the kind words.
As far as the bank account goes I really feel you on this. I too wish it was less expensive. To that end, we have tried to make it as easy as we can by offering the single unit. Then, if you feel that you want to go the full on system and get the pair, we will honor the adjusted "Pair" price for the second one.
As far as the crossover network goes, I think you have a good clue. This is a very critical area unless you are going to have independent control over everything. Even then, the HLCD cannot handle the same current/freq's that an amp normally puts out even in a Hi Pass mode. I found this out the hard way and fry'd a few Titanium domes.
Send me a pm with what you are thinking of doing and I'll comment where I can.
(The nominal impedence is 4 ohms.)
D out

I think this is post number 151 on this thread, maybe my third on this topic alone. Quite a popular thread.

Seems that price is the single biggest concern when it comes to the NVS system. I am in the market for a new boat and therefore a new tower system. I have recently compiled a list of the components I may use in my next tower system. The Evids were OK but my ears need a little more to be happy. I truly think the HLCD/pro-sound approach is the only thing that will satisfy my appetite. The most recent system I designed on paper is composed of four 6" pro-drivers and a 1" HLCD mounted in a custom wood enclosure. The price of the drivers and crossovers alone is over $400. Add $100 for some decent looking speaker grills, another $100-150 for building supplies and clamps. Now a single Entity 1010 starts looking like a real bargain. It's likely that my trial and error engineering approach will likely lead to a few blown drivers so that cost should be factored into the mix as well, plus another $100. Once you add up all the costs Duane's systems look like a bargain.

Everything considered I feel very confident that NVS is currently providing the biggest bang for the buck. KJ, my recommendation is to find a friend and split up a pair of 1010s.

The Skylon Deafcon IV Reference is the least expensive HLCD based tower speaker system that I am aware of. They sell for $1,300 ($1,170 considering the reward points).

http://www.wakeside.com/page/W/PROD/skylon_wakeboard_tower_speakers/skylon_deafcon_iv_ac112g4

I don't think building a HLCD based tower speaker system is for DIY'ers considering the extensive crossover engineering that is required. NVS has put a lot into their design and Skylon worked on their design for over a year with the Image Dynamics audio engineers. They designed and built a crossover for each of the new models.

Mike,
Good point. When I started adding it up the cost it does escalate. The workmanship of the enclosure that I would make would not hold a candle to what Duane has in the NVS's. It looks like I will have to do a lot of convincing (the wife) to get the NVS's.
What amp would you guys run with a single 1010?
I imagine that a good amp is gonna cost 350 bucks, at least.

Pardon my ignorance but I though a crossover basically just sends all the high frequency in the signal to the HLCD and the middle frequencies to the mid bass and strips off everything below what the mid bass can reproduce. Naturally picking the frequencies is the key but a given compression driver has a defined top and bottom frequency, as does a mid bass. On the ID site it states the mid bass reproduces 45Hz - 3kHz and HLCD's cover 1400Hz to 20kHz. Doesnt this define what the crossover frequencies should be?

As a mechanical engine-ear everything electrical is a over my head, but maybe someone can shed light on what else goes into designing a crossover. I'm sure there's more to it but what?

I don't think people usually use crossovers that just cut off sharply at a certain frequency. Instead, they have crossovers with different slopes, e.g. a high-pass crossover that starts to cut out at 55Hz and then gradually cuts out more and more signal until it completely cuts out signals at 45Hz or less. I just made up that example. I don't know if that would be a useful or available crossover spec or not. They might even have crossovers that don't just use a linear slope, but a curve. I don't know.

Anyway, I guess that's where the engineering comes in. Not only do you have to pick the frequencies but also the curves or slopes that sound the best.

Crossovers are combinations of resistors, capacitors, and inductors. These are the electrical equivalents of shocks, springs and a body of mass (not respectively, I forget which was which, hated that class). Designing crossovers is no less complicated then designing a suspension system where you need to control ride, rebound and absorbtion.

Sometimes it is as easy as putting a capacitor in-line to attenuate low frequencies, kind of like throwing a spring on a boat trailer. This simplistic crossover provides attenuation dropping power 6 decibals per octave. If you add an inductor to this crossover the attenuation slope will increase to 12db per octave. Typical crossover slopes range from 6,12,18, or 24 db per octave. These come in the hi-pass, lo-pass, band-pass, and notch filter varieties. Once you figure out the crossover corner points and slopes then you start looking at attenuation networks, after that protection networks. When you are matching up a horn with 107db efficiency rating to a cone with 96db you are looking at an 11db step. Roughly speaking a 3db increase requires a doubling in power. The attenuation circuit also modifies the crossover cutoff characteristics. Protections circuits are typically light bulbs that just light up when the power gets too high resulting in a limited power transfer to the speaker (you can see these on the evid crossovers).

I used to build all my own crossovers when I was installing car stereo's in the early 80s. Car speakers are pretty forgiving, unfortunately HLCD are not. I am still debating if I really want to roll up my sleeves and get dirty with these things.

Im going to use one of these in JUDES boat, it will be a nice way of adjusting crossover points without having to do it at the amps.

I plan on running a seprate amp for the Horns and then another amp for the Mid's. That way I can have 2 seprate gain adjustments and 2 seprate crossover points all to be adjusted by this

more info here
http://www.audiocontrol.com/MobileAudio/Products/Digital/DQX.html
I think these are running around $600-$700
this is a optional control unit. So you can have the main unit tucked away and use this to do all your adjustment's these are another $125


Its a good thing Jude is making all that extra money working as a stripper, He's gonna need it.
LOL

I've been told that doing a crossover correctly on a HLCD based system is much trickier than conventional or the horns will over power the mid-bass. Horns can sound very harsh if the crossover isn't right. That is why a home-made HLCD system isn't for the average person. I think Duane would agree with that.

(Message edited by wakeside1 on December 12, 2004)

I would agree with what Mikeski, Mike H., and Grant have said.
As with different speakers, you can only learn so much from a spec sheet. Sure you can start to see performance trends relative to the data, but the final test for me is always just listening. And that's not just me listening either. The simple fact here is the data (even if in controlled and "Like" conditions) is never in the environment you intend to use the speaker in.
I started out with a simillar approach as what Grant is using that gives you seemingly infinite control. From a manufacturers perspective however, it's insane to add all the components and subsequent cost when if you could determine the right characteristics, just build a fixed network and be done with it.
In Grant's case, he MUST provide the control or, analyze, and analyze, develop, analyze, redevelop, and then fabricate.
I also use professional resources to help and am always trying to improve the situation.
I think Mike H. is on to another means of improvement by offering amplifiers. A few Tower speaker guys offer this and I think it's a good way to go if: 1)quality product, 2)competitivly priced.
I've been struggling with this since the beginning but hopfully soon can establish a relationship with a quality manufacture....name to be announced soon. (Hint, it's made in central Cali) Point here is that even amplifiers impact your results. Just when you think all is well, then someone puts a POS amp inline and you wonder what happened.
The last statement I'll add about the C'over's is phasing. Be careful as odd order c'overs have an impact.
Some food for thought, in concert situations, delays in certain frequencies are deliberatly created to ensure that all the waves arrive at the same time to the listner.
Oh and Mike H, I consider the Enity 808 single to be the least expensive Hi Performance HLCD based system at only $895.
This will compete with 6 6.5's up close, and blow them away at 75 feet. I'm sure some will find that hard to believe.
(I get more demos this way)
What's unbelieveable is this thread!
D out

If someone were to put a single Entity 808 on a tower, would they just mount it in the center of the tower? I have never seen a boat with a single tower speaker but it should work.

I'm sure that a single NVS Entity 808 or 1010 or a Skylon Deafon Reference IV or V would out perform any any non-HLCD based system at 75 feet.