My ballast install design, thoughts?

Going to automate the ballast system in my 2001 SAN, i already have 2 v-drive fat sacs and a bow sac. Currently i am manually filling bow sac and the stock setup is running fill of the 2 v-drive sacs. Here is a diagram of what i was planning using tsunami pumps. Let me know if anyone sees any flaws in my logic

Depending on whether or not you will want to manually open and close the ball valve will determine the if those fill lines need to be routed up past the top of the bags and back down to them and possibly incorporate a vented loop.

The only thing I see is you want to make sure you drain the line going up to the bow sac when you winterize. With the check valve, I don't think the line will empty when you empty with the bow pump.

One more thing is that integrated sac has a habit of wanting to leave a lot water in the leg without the drain pump attached. I have seen it set up where it it drained by two pumps, one on each leg.

Use the front port on the rear sacks as the vent - that will be at the highest point when you're on plane. Similarly, unless you want to add vented loops, make sure your drain and vent outlets are HIGHER elevationwise than the top of the full sacks.

understand about the legs of the bow sac, i could T the 2 legs to a single pump to alleviate that.

not sure i follow you about the the diff if i manually actuate the ball valve or not

Your sacks will fill somewhat on there own unless you do one of two things.

Keep the ball valve closed until your ready to fill or run your fill lines high above the water/sac full level and then back down to the sacks. Some people suggest also to put vented loops at the top of the fill line routing to ensure no suction can develop.

I 2nd L Brenner on 2 drain pumps in the bow sac. They are cheap and both can be run off a typical toggle switch.

The only way to T the two legs together is to mount the single drain pump down in the bilge so it's below the sac because the pumps are not self-priming. Too much work, but a 2nd pump, the T800 Tsinamis are only $24.00.

^^^Mike where do you see the T800's for that price?

With one thru hull fitting hope you don't plan on filling more than one bag at a time. That will be painfully slow unless it's like 2".

Your logic looks fine. I installed similar using Rule pumps. Important to run the fill line above the top of bags like everyone says.

One thing I learned - the orientation of the pumps is very important for priming reasons. They should be straight up and down to avoid air bubble build-up that affects flow. It troubled me for months until Mike on this board pointed it out - once I fixed that, my system has been running flawlessly at very fast speed.

nice thing on my SAN i can T the legs of the bow sac b/c there is a lowered space under the bow floor where the pump can sit bellow both legs

I put a T in the empty and vent lines so that they ran together and only required one thru-hull... based on a design I had seen on these forums a few years ago. A little more work on the plumbing, and I put the swing check valves on them to prevent one flowing into the other, but only one hole on the boat instead of two.

Quote: With one thru hull fitting hope you don't plan on filling more than one bag at a time. That will be painfully slow unless it's like 2".

I've heard this before, but I've also heard this is a myth. Be curious on opinions. Here is what I have heard that led me to believe it is a myth..

Flow rate on even the fastest pumps that are commonly used (1100 GPH) is 18 GPM. Max flow rate of a one inch inside diameter is much higher than that (roughly 50 GPM). So you can run roughly three 1100 GPH pumps at the same time without running into much of a supply issue.

This also assumes the pumps are running at their stated capacity, which I've heard is always overstated, depends on a lot of things.

Again - this is all speculation. I actually bought a 2.5" scoop thru-hull for my setup, and was later told it was a total waste of money and space - should have gone smaller.

Available pressure would be the difference. I have not run the numbers, but you're dealing with about 5 psi max from aerator pumps vs. 40 psi with city water. Impeller pumps operate at closer to city water pressure, and you can get away with smaller plumbing with them.

Yes you can tee the vent & drains together. Put the check valve in the vent line.

Wouldn't the pressure be a constraint after the pump though, not before? Meaning teeing them off a 1" inside diameter thru-hull would allow them to feed just fine - the constraint comes to the bag, thus making the 2" thru overkill.

The reason I bring all this up, is that a 2" thru, unless you use a seacock on it, not a bend/ball valve - takes up a lot of space inside the hull. These are not small parts.

I did almost that same system in my boat with tsumomi 1200's. Works really good and pretty quick. I have my vent and empty T'ed together without a check valve but the vent loops up a little higher then the empty. I don't think any water goes back in the bag when emptying. And I put my check valve for the front bag up by the front bag.

The hose that comes off the T is the vent and the hose that runs straight thru the side of the boat is the empty.

Nice - I probably went overboard on the swing checks, but they are not that expensive.

How large is your thru-hull? Any issue filling multiple bags at once?

Try wakemakers.com for the pumps, they will price match anyone else on the net (or at least that's what they said in another thread).

They are $26 here:
http://backtoboating.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=80

I have a Scoop type thru hull and i am going to place the fill pumps as low and as close to the thru hull as i can

Larger lines will always mean better flow, but it would take a very long time to show the break points on paper, and every system would be different. Use the largest intake you can fit IMO. I'm running 4 T-1200 fill pumps off of a 1 1/2" intake, and filling 3000 in about 8-10 min.

Aerator pumps have a harder time "pulling" than they do "pushing" the water (in psi terms) due to the centrifugal internals, so IMO larger feed lines will help even more. A scupper vs. mushroom pickup will make a difference as well, and you could probably get similar results with a smaller scupper vs. larger mushroom. Impeller pumps can pull just as hard as they can push, so again you could get away with smaller feed lines.

I put a 2" thru hull and fill with 4 pumps every time and sometimes 5. I don't really notice a time difference with 5 it goes pretty quick. I think of it as a 2" thru hull is almost 4 times bigger that a 1" pump line.

Ryan if you are using a scoop type thruhull you will have to close that shut off valve when not using you system. Even with vented loops water will still push past those pumps and fill your sacks. On the bright side your pumps will prime nicely.

I am aware of that, and it doesnt bother me, anyone know where i can find a manifold for the thru hull to split into 3, something like this would be nice.

I feed 5 T800's from a 1 1/2" scupper through hull without a problem. I have never timed it but it fills pretty fast, especially when on plane.

Cool cool. Some people have used rv type waste gates that can be electronically actuated. I just didn't know how easy it was to access your shutoff.

Daylor, were did you find the cheap swing checks. Those things are pretty pricey from my experience. Pricey for what they are I mean.

the stock ballast has a extension on the seacock so just need to pop engine cover and swing

I got them here: http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/24099/product.web. And on eBay for slightly less.

Yes, I agree, it would be nice if they were cheaper, but compared to the thru-hull... bargain.

As far as the bags filling while driving, I read that someone drilled out the back of the scoop thru-hull with three holes so as to relieve some of the pressure driving. Of course it probably doesn't work as well filling while driving... but reduces the flow problem.

Last time I checked, plumbingsupply.com had the swing-door c/v's for around $10 ea for the 1" size.

They have the glue-type, not the threaded for some reason. The threaded are a bit more convenient for using into a hose.

They also stock 1" barb x 1" slip-fit adaptors, they are the #460, 2 per c/v and are $1.80 ea.

You are one step ahead of me... gues I could have just glued a couple of them in...

Pretty sure That Pet Place has the threaded ones. I ordered one for a spare from them a few months back.

I think they had transparent ones too.

Yes - you are correct. They were closer to $18 though. Still not too bad.

My local Lowes has those as well but I think they are the slip type. BTW, Lowes > Home Depot for ballast plumbing parts (at least in my area).

(Message edited by timmyb on September 11, 2009)

starnursery.com has cheap check valves. This is what I used in my system. Search "check valves". 3/4" for $8 and 1" for $9. These work good and I have not had any problems with them for one season.

Wow, good find on the star nursery. Damn good price.

I believe the one in the picture above (not 100% sure), and defintely every one that I found at Lowes and HD is a "spring" check valve though, not a swing??? Swing simply has a flapper in it, vs. spring has a steel spring.

From what I have read, the springs don't work that well with aerator since they add about 2 psi to the pressure needed and restrict flow, where the swings are completely full-flow.

I haven't tried myself, so I can't testify to that, but have read that in several places. The swing valves are harder to find and more expensive.

The orientation of the pump above is what gave me all kinds of trouble for a long time. Had to make it vertical.

It is a swing style pump. I'll get pics of a spare tonight. I also have 3 Tsunomi pumps for empty and are all mounted like this. All three work perfect.

(Message edited by nick_in_ssp on September 11, 2009)

As long the pump is rotated so the outlet comes out the top (like Nick's pic ^^), they should self-burp. My VLX's locker sack is set up exactly the same as Nick's, no problems.

As Daylorb posted, the spring loaded plunger type c/v's do not work well, especially on the vent line. They allow the sac to build pressure and expand like a balloon instead of purge the air. Once the sac builds enough pressure, they will open a purge, but it's a slow process. Go with the swing-door.

Your setup is similiar to my '08 Supra that I just replumbed with Tsunami pumps.

You will need to add vented loops to stop the bags from filling when driving the boat. The Tsunamis will not stop water from entering the bags. Make sure and use an intake grate (thru hull fitting) that does not have a scupper to force water into the system. The vented loops will also stop water from exiting the bags and you wont need the check valves. When you mount the vented loops they need to be as high up as possible in each fill line to each bag.

On your vent lines you can "T" these into your empty lines with a "T" and one way check valve. This way you wont have to drill another exit hole on the side of your boat.

VERY IMPORTANT- make sure and mount your pumps as close to the bottom of the boat as possible. Tsunamis will not self prime and you need to be as low to the bottom as possible to force water into the system. The draft on most boats is about 22-26", like I said the lower, the better to force water into the system.

Here is the link for my project, might be worth taking a look.

http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=4595&highlight=tsunami