When grabs Become "Moves" or "tricks"

After last weeks thread on Stalefish grabs and this weeks thread on Nuclear grabs I got into a very long discussion with a few riders at a local board shop about how some grabs when done right are more than grabs, they are moves. These two young bucks that I was chatting with did not agree with me at all, they thought that grabs enhance visual appeal of wakeboarding but are not actually a move by themselves. So this conversation leads to this post.

I think we can all agree that everyone’s favorite the Method, a move not a grab (the young bucks agreed as well). But what about some other grabs, with this new judging format there is a ton of emphasis on style. So I pose the question when is a grab a move and not just a grab? I would have to say that watching some riders, there are a lot more grabs that are moves moreso than just a grab. Take Rathys Stalefish pokes in Push Process, Randall’s Giant Tail Pokes in Transgression, or Lymans Crazy huge Melons. I would say they are all moves not grabs.

So do we judge this on difficulty or style, I prefer to think style over difficulty.

What does everyone else think? I would like to think that grabs like Indy pokes are moves not grabs, I know that I could do a backroll years before I could make an Indy poke look good.


anyway end rant begin discussion:

i personally would call any grab a move. some people are just better at it than others.

I don't know, you can really split hairs with this one. Too many variables... Did they do it with a shifty, poke , hold extra long, amplitude, essentially how good did they make it look? I would think a 'move' would constitute a name. If Joe blow does a wake to wake indy, and Keith Lyman does a shifty indy 30 ft. out in the flats, I would think they're both still indy grabs. You could call keiths a shifty indy, or a big shifty indy but it's still an indy.

I wouldn't think a big invert in the flats is deserving of a different name than the same invert wake to wake just because it *looks* better.

I guess I would have to say I would still call it a grab, obviously some people are just better at grabbing their boards than others.

"...I wouldn't think a big invert in the flats is deserving of a different name than the same invert wake to wake just because it *looks* better..."

I hadn't thought of it like that until you said it, but I agree with this logic. When you try to call a grab a "move", you start getting into what it's "supposed to look like"....which is typically opinion-based. I mean, we all know that Randy's method is legit (refer to WBM cover!)....but remember, there was also an opinion (not mine) that this may have not been worthy of a cover because it's "just a method". Not sure exactly where I stand on this, but good topic....carry on.

a grab is a label. the move is what you do with it.

People like to blow methods up and think they can only be done a certain way (blah blah blah--I always get teary eyed thinking of the poetry behind the rhetoric), but it takes style to make what are seemingly the most basic grabs look good. If you can look as cool as thomas horrell does on a wakeskate while jumping over an explorer that's on a road gap, and grab frontside right inside of your back foot...you know what you're doing. Conversely, you can grab stink bug and look like a giant, bow-legged turd.

choose your weapon!

Tough call, I've bene trying to grab my Crow for a hundred years, doubt I ever will. I know that when I try to grab it its a completely different feel than a normal Crow. But I like the sound of esnow's "a grab is a label. the move is what you do with it"

Kind of off topic but still on....If I could do one grabbed move it would be the new trick a lot of riders are doing (Randall, Rathy, Lyman, etc.) where they throw a HUGE HS method, pulling it to Melon, then to FS 180. That trick is dripping with style.

^^^^^^ Agreed M-Dizzle!!

IMO a grab is a move. There is a reason every wakeboarder does them, they feel good, look good and is a homage to our roots. Look at Adam E, that kid has one of the coolest looking tail pokes, if he were to just do a big poked un-grabbed Shifty, I could care less. He puts that right hand down and it is a completely different move, full of style. The straight shifty just looks out of control without the grab.

Is a Pete Rose a Pete Rose without the grab???

a grab becomes a move when you take yourself too seriously

"a grab is a label. the move is what you do with it."

Esnow! This might honestly be one of the most profound statements I have ever seen posted on Wakeworld. Good work man!

The pete was invented with a grab. So no randy.
Just a back flip fs 3.

Randy: I say no....until you factor in ricky g's "indy" pete. was that really a pete if he didn't grab nose first or was it an indy toe br to bs 3? hmmm....nice question.....

Tim: hit the nail on the head!

Andy: still a good topic.

i dont know. when shawn watson does a huge melon into the flats...i wouldnt say "that was a nice label".

If you grab the Pete indy, then you don't grab the nose anyway. Then it would be a nose grab Pete.

bbr: I think the point is that there is no "pete" without a nose grab....whether or not you grab it somewhere else along the way....no nose = no pete. that's the debate.

Actually,if you grab it method its still a Pete.

But I personally think that if you don't grab it at all, it's just not the same thing.

personally I love the attention to detail these threads bring up. The shots are awesome too. I love pics of people riding (its the next best thing sitting in cubicle land). It's all about fun, I love the looks on people's faces in the shots too!

I thought Grabs were Grabs, spins were spins, etc....you combo them up, bone em out, whatever.

For Instance, I like Heelside Tailfishes to case the wake. That's my combo for sure

I don't know if its been said already, but I think grabs a moves WHEN they are either poked or shifted or are glides, if you simply reach down to grab the board, it is a grab, not a "move," it cannot stand alone without a poke, glide, or shifty.

I think Trevor might be on to something.

A whole year postin on WW and I think that's the first time someone agreed with me, with that momentum, I'd like to say the Tindy CAN be a cool grab, it just depends on HOW you poke it, grab right behind your back binding on the toe edge, pull left with your back foot and right with your front and take it shifty, it looks cool to me.

Flux that is crazy funny.

Trevor I think that yuo are onto something, that is exactly what I was thinking, making a grab into a move by adding your own signature to it.

sorry Trevor, I disagree fully. A tindy is a tindy and always looks sloppy IMO...

it becomes a move if you can't add it to an invert.

"Esnow! This might honestly be one of the most profound statements I have ever seen posted on Wakeworld. Good work man!"


LOL...or woman.

IMO, method isnt really a grab name. Method is a body position with a mandatory grab. Much like a Pete is an invert with mandatory grab.

I just like the way you can poke out the same grab so many different ways. on an indy you can poke out your back leg, front leg, or grab it, then push it out like an indy stiffy. a stalefish you can poke out your back or push forward towards the boat or make it like a japan air and make it a glide.

Jason, a Method w/ no grab is a fashion.

Jhill, interesting perspective. Nice benchmark for difficulty.

I think it is a move when it stands alone, and just a grab when incorporated into another trick for difficulty. Maybe some tricks with grabs shouldn't have been named just because it included one?

And style? It's what you do to spruce up the move without changing it.

For the new guy, every move is a challenge, so why should it be given less billing just because it becomes easy as experience climbs?

nicely put Joe!

I don't think a method with no grab is a fashion air. To do a method, don't you you have to have your body turned away and the the bottom of the board facing the people in the boat?

^^^^yes. a fashion air is NOT a method without a grab. A method without the grab would be more of a backside shifty with your back leg boned out, which seems to me like it would be damn near impossible or really awkward looking.

I can see where he is coming from though. People do the equivalent of a fashion air with a melan grab and think it's a method. I see it on the snowboard hill A LOT. It's not though, it's just a really bad looking melan or a terrible attempt at a method.

The Tindy owns the water.

its actually called a backscratcher but to me that sounds stupid....

Scott. Things like that bug me. sorry, but if someone does something that looks cool, but theres no name for it, does that mean it shouldn't be acknowleged as a trick? the melon grab is that persons way of sprucin up the method, I do the melon method all the time. If you look at wakeboarding as an art form or expression or whatever, theres gonna be all kinds of different artists, but everyone puts thier own little tweak on it. which is more interesting a poloroid or a van goh [I'm not personally a fan of pantings etc but for the sake of the argument...]

Trevor, a proper method involves a melan grab so I'm not exactly sure what you're saying...

Ride however you want and do whatever tricks you want. If you like it, it's all good.

"People do the equivalent of a fashion air with a melan grab and think it's a method. I see it on the snowboard hill A LOT. It's not though, it's just a really bad looking melan or a terrible attempt at a method."

btw I just re-read my post, and it came off a little more offensive than I intended...

Grabs CAN be moves.

Theres a BIG difference between simply loosely grabing your board and grabbing your board while putting your own steez on it. There is a fine line between where a grab becomes a move, and everybodys fine line is different, but its there.

A basic method requires the rider to grab in between your feet and bring the base of the board up so the edge is perpendicular to the water (as opposed to having the base be parallel like you would with a melon). You DO NOT have to palm it out (or make the base of the board face the boat) in order for it to be a method. People like to say that in wakeboarding but it's not true. Tailbones are a function of style and not a requirement for a method. Look at vert skaters, or even old skateboarding footage of street dudes hitting launch ramps. Ultimately, there are just different ways to add flavor to a method, which is similar to your standard indy grab (but people don't get as sappy about it)--poke it, double poke it, poke and shift, blah blah blah.