Lance charged with doping

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/13/sport/...l?c=homepage-t

not exactly. "Charged" implies criminal liability and the US attorney long ago decided not to pursue him.

This is a USADA sanction. Same as what Floyd went through. Hopefully minus the low brow Floyd antics.

I'm sick of Lance, Lance doping stories, etc. Let it go USADA.

Hmm I wasn't aware the word "charge" implied criminal justice. Someone should tell lance: ""These are the very same charges and the same witnesses that the Justice Department chose not to pursue after a two-year investigation," Armstrong said Wednesday."

Lance doped? Oh, so your saying he wasn't clean when beat all those drug cheats from 99-05 and smashed all those climbing records in the TDF while looking like a linebacker, Wow, go figure..... Haha.

LOL, lance won the Tour de France, not the Tour de Grammar.

None of these "charges" will result in jail time, is all I'm sayin.

Looked like a linebacker during his TdF wins? This would not be much of a football team!



From Washington post article:

USADA is the quasi-government agency that oversees anti-doping in Olympic sports in the United States. It is empowered to bring charges that could lead to suspension from competition and the rescinding of awards. It does not have authority to bring criminal charges.

So I guess now that I see WaPo uses "charges" I'll have to turn in my grammar police badge! Carry on.

Ok, so maybe Linebacker was a bit strong, haha. Still he carried a lot more weight than other specialist climbers who he routinely smashed. Nice photo tho of Lance beating two guys both doped to the gills, both busted, both not strong enough to conquer him even tho he was squeaky clean, all the while most of his team fail drug tests one after the other.....

It doesn't worry me he was charged up, that was how it was in those days, probably still like it now, but at least keep it real, better to say nothing than lie and say you are clean.

that was the podium in 05 -- Lance's body type isn't that much different from Basso's or Ulrich's. Truth is that the tour has favored a TT specialist who can climb over a pure climber for a long time. Lance's only stage win in 05 was the final TT.

I'm no Lance fanboy and I rooted against him every year... but gawdamn was he a pro. If he doped how'd he get so good at keeping a lid on it? His former-teammate-accusers, Floyd and Tyler sure did a pisspoor job of concealing their own doping efforts, so they sure didn't take any lessons from Lance.

I dunno, I just wish USADA would let it go. And why now, three weeks before the tour?

andy schleck just withdrew from the tdf too. bad day for cycling.

What a colossal waste of tax payer money. Leave the freaking guy alone,. I've never paid much attention to biking or Lance Armstrong. I can however appreciate what he did in the sport.

I could care less whether the guy did huge cycles of roids, blood doping, HGH, or a combo of all the above. Whether he did it or not I do not know, but what I do know is that if he is doing it so are many others. People will always try and get a leg up on the competition. Every time they do random testing in the UFC someone gets busted. They will never stop it.

I agree with Flight. Leave the guy alone for goodness sakes! He's how old?

Also, his LiveStrong foundation raised 25.4 million dollars for cancer research in just 6 months. Read what it does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong_Foundation

The only thing I hold against the guy is that he cheated on Sheryl Crow. What a dope.

Originally Posted by wakeboardingdad

Also, his LiveStrong foundation raised 25.4 million dollars for cancer research in just 6 months.

You would think that wouldn't you but no actually, the money was raised for "Cancer awareness". LiveStrong spend ZERO on research. There are some very murky financial dealings between Livestrong.org and Livestrong.com, one a charity and one a business, where the line stops and starts is a moving feast of personal expenses, private jets and legal expenses.....

If you do a little and by little I mean tiny bit of research on Lance and how he deals with people all you can say about this action is what goes around comes around.

He did it, and was smart enough, or bankrolled enough to not get caught. Get over it. They know he did it, they know he beat their methods, but they keep going after the guy for being smarter than them. Besides cheating at bike riding is like cheating at hotdog eating. I dont think the public could be more disinterested.

Originally Posted by ralph

If you do a little and by little I mean tiny bit of research on Lance and how he deals with people all you can say about this action is what goes around comes around.

Well, I feel like the dope now. Perhaps I should have done more research on the guy myself instead of a quick jaunt over to wiki. Everyone has skeletons in their closet. What you cannot quantify is the impact Livestrong has had on so many people. Doing that first exercise. Eating a bit better, etc. He, or his organization, created a movement.

As far as Lance taking off with the money. Waste is everywhere and it is mostly fueled by status and greed. Unfortunately the waste is most prevalent where large amounts of money exist and that includes government, corporations, religious organizations and even charities.

How much does the CEO of the United Way make a year?

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

How much does the CEO of the United Way make a year?

Actually, I read that that's why lance started using EPO, because of the overcompensation of Elizabeth Dole as the head of the Red Cross....

Last I saw reported about a decade ago it was over 1 million a year.

Re: The title of this thread - Yawn.

IMO, the game is... set the rules, run the required tests, catch people in the act or leave it alone.

I want to see him have his titles taken away because he has based his entire career on lies. Lies upon lies upon lies.
He formed a foundation and that has done some good in this world. I will give him that.

Also I want to see him go down because I have a friend who just adored him, fought with me constantly about this topic. Swore up and down that there was no way he did it. Now it seems Lance is inches from being proven a fraud.

He must have known this was coming. Hence the late May "I'm taking my ball home" stuff. Refusing to fight it anymore etc.

Originally Posted by boomshot

I want to see him have his titles taken away because he has based his entire career on lies. Lies upon lies upon lies.

So he's been convicted?

OR

Are you are convicting him before he's had his day in court? Does not sound very American to me.

He based his career on lies. Last I saw, he came in first in all those races. He passed all tests based on the rules in place at the time. He even passed the tests after the fact. All the other guys were using and won but I am sure they never had to go back time and time again to prove they won fair. This is all crap. I am glad he won and I am tired of all the witch hunts. This is starting to look more like Monte Python than anything. I wonder if they are going to try and build a bridge out of him to prove he is made of wood and we all know wood floats just like witches and we all know witches burn and we all know the witches float like ducks so if Lance floats like a duck he must be made of wood and thus flammable so we must burn him.......

Also, I would hate to be a wide receiver coming over the middle and see Lance there. I can see Megatron catching a slant and thinking "oh no, it's Lance son....... Get down, get down....." Of course, he may actually be stout against the run compared to my Colts linebackers.

Originally Posted by norcalrider

So he's been convicted?

OR

Are you are convicting him before he's had his day in court? Does not sound very American to me.

*** LOL, it's the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration of Sport, which is an international body that Lance consented to in order to participate in international professional cycling.

Darn tootin' it's not American! These guys are actually tested up the wazoo unlike our BS testing regimes. I'd be really curious to see how many MLB / NBA / NFL players would test positive under a WADA testing regime.

And he won't be convicted because CAS is not a criminal court. He'll possibly be sanctioned, and maybe even stripped of his TdF wins. In a couple of places the new "winners" would also be dopers who've served out there WADA / UCI sanctions (Ulrich and Basso, the two other guys in that podium shot, have already been popped and served their sanctions).

If he did it and really engaged in a 7 year long conspiracy and they can FINALLY prove it, well then F Lance. I think it's awful for the sport, but less awful than having someone who can be proven was a long time cheat and not pursuing it?

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

He based his career on lies. Last I saw, he came in first in all those races. He passed all tests based on the rules in place at the time. He even passed the tests after the fact. All the other guys were using and won but I am sure they never had to go back time and time again to prove they won fair. This is all crap. I am glad he won and I am tired of all the witch hunts. This is starting to look more like Monte Python than anything. I wonder if they are going to try and build a bridge out of him to prove he is made of wood and we all know wood floats just like witches and we all know witches burn and we all know the witches float like ducks so if Lance floats like a duck he must be made of wood and thus flammable so we must burn him.......

Just because he passed the tests didn't mean he wasn't cheating. What he was doing is taking his own blood and re-infusing it in and right before competition. There's no test for having your own blood, other than the implication of an elevated hemocrit level. Autologous transfusions ARE cheating even if there isn't a way to detect getting caught.

Originally Posted by shawndoggy

*** LOL, it's the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration of Sport, which is an international body that Lance consented to in order to participate in international professional cycling.

Darn tootin' it's not American! These guys are actually tested up the wazoo unlike our BS testing regimes. I'd be really curious to see how many MLB / NBA / NFL players would test positive under a WADA testing regime.

And he won't be convicted because CAS is not a criminal court. He'll possibly be sanctioned, and maybe even stripped of his TdF wins. In a couple of places the new "winners" would also be dopers who've served out there WADA / UCI sanctions (Ulrich and Basso, the two other guys in that podium shot, have already been popped and served their sanctions).

If he did it and really engaged in a 7 year long conspiracy and they can FINALLY prove it, well then F Lance. I think it's awful for the sport, but less awful than having someone who can be proven was a long time cheat and not pursuing it?

I was thinking more of this: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...icle-1.1017146

Clearly the Federal Prosecutors didn't have the evidence to move forward but apparently the USADA is choosing to continue this witch hunt.

Originally Posted by norcalrider

I was thinking more of this: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...icle-1.1017146

Clearly the Federal Prosecutors didn't have the evidence to move forward but apparently the USADA is choosing to continue this witch hunt.

Lower standard of proof, plus expert arbitrators vs. jurors off the streets. USADA's case against Lance is probably easier than the US Attorney's.

Remember how OJ got acquitted but lost in the civil trial?

Originally Posted by shawndoggy

Lower standard of proof, plus expert arbitrators vs. jurors off the streets. USADA's case against Lance is probably easier than the US Attorney's.

Remember how OJ got acquitted but lost in the civil trial?

???

Civil court vs Criminal court ≠ Federal Prosecutor vs USADA

I understand lower burdens of proof but the analogy doesn't work for me. Until evidence shows he doped I do not think it appropriate to make statements of his guilt.

http://www.readthehorn.com/sports/60...ges_from_usada

Chief executive of the USADA, Travis Tygart, contends that Armstrong is still presumed innocent until a case determines if he participated in these banned acts.

this is one of those things like free speech that people mess up (IMHO).

Just like freedom of speech doesn't mean you need to accept my crazy opinion, the presumption of innocence is a procedural safeguard that says that the party bringing the charges bears the burden of proof.

I'm not an arbitrator so I don't need to be impartial or not declare lance's guilt. That's for the arbitrators and CAS.

Just because the federal prosecutor did not move forward with the case (which is different from a verdict of not guilty) does not mean that a CAS administrative case cannot go forward, and it also doesn't mean that it's unfair for me to think he's probably guilty of doping.

A couple of points:

The USADA investigating PED drug use, the Feds were investigating money laundering, cross border drug trafficking and contract fraud. So not a different burden of proof so much as different offences.

A test for EPO was not ratified until 2001 but it was a listed PED from the 80's. When the test was developed it was used for the first time in 2001 Tour De Swiss and lance failed. He donated 150k to the test agency and the trigger point for failed and passed was moved and his failed test disappeared into the ether. Later stored samples were retested from the 99 tour win and he failed those too, Lances army of Lawyers had the tests squashed due to not giving approval to retest the samples and calling into question the chain of evidence for the samples.

I don't really care what happens to Lance, but the dream that he is 100% pure is just that a dream. Personally I think he should keep the tour wins win an astrix denoting drug use. No point giving the wins retrospectively to other guys who were as likely just as dirty.

Originally Posted by ralph

I don't really care what happens to Lance, but the dream that he is 100% pure is just that a dream. Personally I think he should keep the tour wins win an astrix denoting drug use. No point giving the wins retrospectively to other guys who were as likely just as dirty.

We can all assume whatever we want... but the simple fact is, there is zero proof. No proof means no asterisk.

Originally Posted by digg311

We can all assume whatever we want... but the simple fact is, there is zero proof. No proof means no asterisk.

Please define proof. Because in my mind there is a lot of evidence that a jury or a panel of arbitrators could consider proof, even in the absence of a positive drug test. Remember, there really is no test for autologous blood transfusions. Tyler only failed because he goofed up and used somebody else's blood.

But if there's a pattern of elevated hemocrit and testimony of teammates and .... well, I think that could be considered "proof".

If proof is a smoking gun, you are probably right.

Originally Posted by shawndoggy;1761024...testimony of teammates and .... well, I think that [I

could be[/I] considered "proof".

Testimony of those found guilty while others like Horner and Levi proclaim Lance is innocent.

Exactly.... you've got testimony on both sides of the issue... so that's hardly "proof"... and hematocrit levels can rise due to dehydration, so there's that.

I'm seriously not on one side or the other. If definitive proof came out today that Armstrong cheated, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. But, it just isn't there. No smoking gun. Not even a drawing of a smoking gun. Just a description of a possible gun, that may or may not be smoking.

There is a lot more than just testimony. 450k Payment to "Family friend" Dr Ferrari in 2010 anyone.......
The reality is that we don't know the strength of the USADA action until the case is presented, saying there is no evidence is a bit premature IMO.

Don't forget Marion Jones never failed a drug test either. We all know how that ended up.

Fair enough.
I was commenting specifically on the "asterisk" statement. I'm just not willing to agree that an athlete's legacy be tarnished in any way until there's a real, verifiable reason.

Not to go off topic, but it's the same reason I'm annoyed with the NFL and specifically Roger Goodell right now, for picking out and punishing players arbitrarily, when they don't seem to have anything definitive to show that those players are guilty.

Originally Posted by digg311

Fair enough.
I was commenting specifically on the "asterisk" statement. I'm just not willing to agree that an athlete's legacy be tarnished in any way until there's a real, verifiable reason.

Not to go off topic, but it's the same reason I'm annoyed with the NFL and specifically Roger Goodell right now, for picking out and punishing players arbitrarily, when they don't seem to have anything definitive to show that those players are guilty.

Put the NFL on the testing regime Lance was subjected to... you'll have some guiltys before you know it!

MJ results in a suspension and remember these guys must pee in a cup after any competition

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/swan...na-metabolites

Originally Posted by shawndoggy

Put the NFL on the testing regime Lance was subjected to... you'll have some guiltys before you know it!

Hahaha. TRUTH!

I don't really care what happens to Lance, but the dream that he is 100% pure is just that a dream. Personally I think he should keep the tour wins win an astrix denoting drug use. No point giving the wins retrospectively to other guys who were as likely just as dirty.

I concurr with all of this except the astrix and thats becasue the guys that he beat were on them too. If you finish anywhere near the top of major races in cycling you're taking a cornucopia of drugs. I read an artcle that quoted a major trainer and he stated just that. This is the reason I don't care if he took drugs, he was doing nothing more than leveling the playing field. I think if none of them were taking drugs the resluts would have been the same, Lance winning.

haha you think the guys in 2nd and 3rd are praying to god that they dont get the title in order to be avoid being scrutinized. my guess is yess.

Sorry to not be clear, the Astrix suggestion was only if the case is successful and he is found guilty, I'm not suggesting he gets Astrix now or ever if the cases don't go ahead or are not successful.

Most of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th places have already been busted....

Originally Posted by alanp

haha you think the guys in 2nd and 3rd are praying to god that they dont get the title in order to be avoid being scrutinized. my guess is yess.

Lol oh that it were so. Both of the guys in the '05 podium shot with lance were popped years ago. Basso was the very next year if memory serves which was the tour where Floyd dazzled then disappointed.

Rabo Basso in the 06 Giro was freakin awesome that tour is the balls.

Originally Posted by ralph

Rabo Basso in the 06 Giro was freakin awesome that tour is the balls.

Well if you watched Landis in Stage 17 of the 06 tour... man that one still gives me chills. PEDs or not, gawdamn that was the most epic day of bike racing I've ever seen.

Seems this judge sure loves cancer: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/arms...sada-dismissed

Way to go Lance. When finally forced to put up or shut up, you choose shut up. I am a chump for ever rooting for you for anything.

^^^^ What? have you been following what is happening at all? ^^^^

The USADA is crock of S**t. Good for Lance. I am betting on the UCI and USA Cycling not backing the decision and so is Lance. He will keep his wins.

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-event...august-23-2012

A rant from a friend:

The U.S. media suffers from severe problems some of which are based on a deep lack of understanding about how international professional cycling works. First, the USA does not control professional cycling.

Second, the USA does not control decisions made regarding testing, results of races, results of testing, who is disqualified or who cheated. The UCI or international cycling union (they are French) controls most of professional cycling and the entirety of the Tour de France. The UCI officially asked the USADA to stop doing what it is doing.

Third, the "testimony" I have read so far, again so far, reports witnessing Lance receiving injections and the like. However, none of that "testimony" said the syringe or saline bag stated "Performance Enhancer", "EPO" or "The Oil" on the side. A great many athletes get saline drips post race, (contest, game...), many receive vitamin shots too. None of those are performance enhancing and none are against the rules.

Fourth, blood samples taken from Lance during his Tours is STILL being tested with the most advanced tests now available. If ten years ago he masked the use of PEDs the UCI (a French organization who DOES NOT LIKE LANCE for winning the French race) has a strong interest in finding that out. It has not despite literally, quite literally hundreds of tests. I could continue at great length that vague innuendo or even out right accusations in print and t.v. media is not a court of law but you all know that.

Where Lance would have made a "plea" would have been in an arbitration. However, this arbitration never occurred, an arbitration not a court of law, that arbitration would not have been limited by the rule of law. You say, "Big deal. So what it isn't a real court. People are pointing fingers." It is a HUGE deal. Remember those old dudes with the white wigs who wrote the Constitution? They came from countries that did not follow the rule of law and saw the horrendous miscarriage of justice that resulted. Due Process of law, facing and cross examining your accusers, and proper accumulation and presentation of evidence are not things to forget, pass over or joke about. Those things protect people, just like you and I from being railroaded into prison, fines, loss of property or here should protect someone's whose image is one of his most important assets. I am available for lengthy rants whenever you need.

Lance isn't going to jail, he has no "constitutional right" to play by any rules other than the ones he submitted himself to when he decided to race. He played a game. The game has rules. He doesn't like how the rules are being applied now so he takes his chips and goes home.

I don't care if he is right on all counts... that somehow the same AAA arbitration that fortune 500 companies agree to use every day would turn into a kangaroo court. Let's assume that's true. He still owes his fans the duty to go down fighting. Anything less is completely weak.

Mik, what your friend doesn't acknowledge is how much money both the UCI and USAC have received from LA, and what LA going down does to those two institutions. They both have a vested interest in roadblocking USADA for interests other than the "truth."

Read the verbage of the USADA statements. They do not acknowledge having a positive test (read the statement carefully), and the evidence they have was not enough for Federal Prosecutors to proceed. We live in a country of law and I have never thought it is appropriate for some self-aggrandizing bureaucrat to levy charges without real scientific data.

Originally Posted by norcalrider

Read the verbage of the USADA statements. They do not acknowledge having a positive test (read the statement carefully), and the evidence they have was not enough for Federal Prosecutors to proceed. We live in a country of law and I have never thought it is appropriate for some self-aggrandizing bureaucrat to levy charges without real scientific data.

Burden of proof should be higher for criminal sanctions....

As for bureaucrats, your doctor, your dentist, your veterinarian, and your lawyer probably already submit to their own professional regulatory bodies that have the power to take away the license that permits them to engage in the profession.

Lance is losing his license to play a game, that is all. He can still vote, he can still carry a gun, he can still travel internationally. He just won't be allowed to kit up in lycra and ride a bicycle really fast for money.

At this point why even test the athletes? He's come up clean every time they test him, yet they're going to strip him of his titles because of the testimony of a bunch of washed up doping riders? If the negative tests don't prove anything, why test at all?

This seems to me like someone driving through a speed camera, getting radar gunned by the police and both coming back within the limit, but a driver that was speeding and got pulled over say's "I swear officer, that guy was going just as fast as me." So he get's a ticket as well.

You don't find it troublesome that Lance's doctor, his director sportif, and nearly every teammate with significant results that he's ever had is either implicated or testifying against him? That's sure some "bad luck" that such a clean guy happens to be surrounded by such shady characters, year after year after year...

^^^ Great analogy.

How much more money should he have to spend? How many tests has he passed? Hundreds. How many has he failed? None. Usada has zero jurisdiction when it comes to stripping him of titles. Whether he cheated or not is irrelevant at this point. I applaud him for basically telling them to **** off, and say what they want. He can go back to his life of racing in triathalons, and banging super hot celebrities stress free. Kudos to him.

I agree Shawn, it doesn't paint a pretty picture and it sure casts some doubt. I don't think he's completely clean, hell I don't think anyone on that tour is completely clean. But by their rules he is clean, the hundreds of tests he passed say he is. And troublesome and shady characters have yet to yield a true smoking gun, which seems like it should be necessary for a guy that has been tested a rigorously as Lance has.

Originally Posted by ttrigo

How much more money should he have to spend? How many tests has he passed? Hundreds. How many has he failed? None. Usada has zero jurisdiction when it comes to stripping him of titles. Whether he cheated or not is irrelevant at this point. I applaud him for basically telling them to **** off, and say what they want. He can go back to his life of racing in triathalons, and banging super hot celebrities stress free. Kudos to him.

No, he can't. His lifetime ban applies to any sport which submits to WADA rules, and would include triathlon.

Originally Posted by lugwrench

I agree Shawn, it doesn't paint a pretty picture and it sure casts some doubt. I don't think he's completely clean, hell I don't think anyone on that tour is completely clean. But by their rules he is clean, the hundreds of tests he passed say he is. And troublesome and shady characters have yet to yield a true smoking gun, which seems like it should be necessary for a guy that has been tested a rigorously as Lance has.

Obviously lance was scared enough to give up the fight, which says something about the avalanche of testimony usada must have had.

Ask yourself how you'd feel about the "the test wasn't positive so USADA should pound sand" argument if all of his teammates came forward to USADA in the year the doping occurred, and in separate interviews, all gave matching stories about what he did, how he did it, how he thwarted the tests, etc?

At the end of the day this comes down to the question of whether cheating is OK as long as you don't get caught (instantly) even if your own teammates are willing to testify that you did cheat and explain how you did it.

Is it only wrong if you fail the test?

By no means am I saying he did it. I'm saying by pussing out he's given all of his fans a big "FU."

You don't give of all of you TDF titles unless something isn't right. If Lance was innocent, I believe Phil Knight would be more than willing to put up the jack to prove one of his top-tiered atheles was indeed clean. By doing this, his legacy is going to be permanently scaarred.

I think the expectation is that the governing bodies will step up to USADA and Armstrong is forcing that play.

^^^ Exactly. I hope it works.

Isn't their some hippocracy in on the one hand decrying the absence of due process in the usada / wada rules, and then on the other hand relying on the wada charter as a basis for the UCI to reject the usada findings? Or am I the only one that sees the irony in Lance hating how the rules are applied to him, but liking how the same rules are applied to usada and wada?

You heard it here first... at the end of the day UCI will capitulate to WADA and Lance loses.

Shawn I don't follow...

This is about the ego of some USADA bureaucrat zealously seeking headlines to promote himself as much as this is about allegations about a retired racer.

Mik, take a look at the WADA charter, which UCI and USAC are parties to.

Or maybe read the UCI's press release: http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...MenuId=MTI2Mjc

I don't know all the facts, but I don't agree with what has happened to him. Probably 90% or more of sports legends are not 100% legit.

Anyway, Lance is racing tomorrow.

Originally Posted by norcalrider

Shawn I don't follow...

This is about the ego of some USADA bureaucrat zealously seeking headlines to promote himself as much as this is about allegations about a retired racer.

100% disagree. Travis Tygarty comes across a straight shooter, Lance is a class A bully but meet his match in Tygart who doesnt back down or get diverted.

Also uci is swiss not french, do not run the tour de France and have much invested in not having the truth about Lance coming out. He has failed tests before for both epo and steroids so all this 500 tests and never failed nonsense needs to stop being repeated. My biggest hope is that the USADA case still gets to see the light of day so Lance gets shown up to what he is, a lair, a cheat and a bully.

Why are our tax dollars being spent on this crap....

Welcome to Obama's America....

Originally Posted by TroyD

Why are our tax dollars being spent on this crap....

Welcome to Obama's America....

$31.98M to sponsor USPS team from 2001 to 2004: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cyclin...ory?id=6019436

USADA's entire annual budget (which goes to a lot more than chasing a single athlete) is apparently about $13M. http://www.quora.com/United-States-A...-annual-budget

The USPS is actually a hybrid organization with only a requirement to break even in profit. They actually average about 1 billion a year profit and have a charter like a private business. Not exactly the government trying to get the governments money back. The USPS actually has the ability to sue Lance on it's own if it wants the money back.

I just love the argument that if he does not fight, he must be guilty. Maybe he is tired of spending HIS MONEY on it. And don't give men the lame crap that someone else would pay on his behalf. That is a lame straw man argument. He has been retired for how long from cycling? So, when does the rules stop being applied to you when you retire from your job?

I also love the lame argument that they have people lined up to testify. You mean people that can get deals cut to lie? The government had a full proof case against Clemens and Bonds too didn't they? Neither one of them was convicted. Actually, did they convict anyone yet for any of this stuff? They got Bonds for a obstruction charge but could not prove anything and they went after Roger twice and lost both times and the same government looked at Lance for 2 years and decided not to go after him? They went after two people and LOST with what they thought was air tight cases. The case against Lance must have been a real loser if they decided to not bring it.

Maybe he is tired of fighting, maybe he has stopped fighting so the evidence isn't released to the public.

He has been retired from cycling for two years but is currently competing in pro ironman.

Yes people who have never failed drug tests have come forward and testified that they cheated with lance. Also the cycling establishment has been caught out covering up positive tests and giving forward notice of when testing would occur. Financial records also show lance "donated" 150k to the test lab which developed the test for epo after testing began in 2001. Witnesses who are not pro cyclists testify that lance told doctors he took peds when he was first with cancer. His "family friend" dr ferrari received over 400k since 2008 for training advise even though the good dr is banned from working with cyclists from the Italian cycling administration

I could go on but i feel like your not listening.

I am listening but I don't hear or see facts from anyone. Everything I have ever seen is speculation. Only facts we have is he passed his tests based on the rules that were laid out before the people. He passed the test then and he has passed the tests post event for years. Those are the only facts that I have heard. Those positions you posted are still not facts of doping. They are speculation and hearsay. Maybe be donated money because he was tired of cheating too and wanted it stopped. He was friends with a guy who was banned from Italy? Aren't they the same people who trumped up charges, completely had botched procedures when handing DNA samples and convicted a young college girl of murder without any evidence? Those Italians? Taking a PED when he got cancer? oh my. He was not competing in cycling during that time. He was competing for his life. I don't care what he took to make that happen. Don't know what the motivation of the people who are saying they cheated with Lance. The government had people who say they helped Bonds and Clemons cheat but when they got in court, they obviously got blown out of the water. I don't know if he is absolutely clean but these witch hunts need to stop. Enough is enough.

Sounds Like JOB for Victor Contie. Your tax dollars at work.! Who gives a "F" Clemmins and Bonds what a joke. How much money did the goverment spend going after these guys and what came of it all. What a joke. IMO lance and the drugs he took and who gives a F" at this point. Dead Horse IMO.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier

I am listening but I don't hear or see facts from anyone. Everything I have ever seen is speculation.

Which is exactly why Armstrong has taken the punishment rather than go to arbitration, in an effort to prevent the case from being presented. That way the facts are kept hidden and there is always doubt so the faithful can still support him. Hopefully brunell will still go to arbitration or uci will appeal so it can go to cas but i doubt it.

The reason this cannot be swept under the carpet is the cycling administration is complicit in the fraud, unless the truth comes out nothing will change and cycling will continue to be like professional wrestling.

"Which is exactly why Armstrong has taken the punishment"
but what is his real punishment? they cant strip him of any titles. so now he cant be a "pro" triathalete anymore? do those guys actually win money? I am sure he will have no problem keeping endorsement money coming in. probably quite a bit more than the "pro" triathaletes out there are bringing home.
agree that cycling is a joke if they think they are trying to keep a clean sport. much like baseball post 1994 strike, they will do anything for spectators.

The USADA is trying to be relevant. They were giving full authority by the US government to police doping. I would not talk to them especially if they try and place you under oath. That can lead to jail time for something else besides that they are trying to get you for. They get you in and talk to you about this and that and then go to talk to other people and hope to find you in anything. They then bring a case against you in which they can not hope to prove (aka Bonds and Clemons) and then try to get you to plea down or outright try and convict you of a lesser crime that a normal person would do no time for but instead try and make you do time. I would never ever ever volunteer to talk to the feds about anything. They have unlimited budget which is another tactic the USADA is using. They try and break you financially so you can not longer fight and call victory as well. You want to know why there are so many poor people in jail? It is because they could not afford the fight. Like Chris Rock said. If OJ Simpson was a bus driver, he would have been Oranthol the bus driving murderer.....

Huh? For someone who normally has some rational arguments you have left the plantation.

Usada and the feds are two different organisations. Usada are authorised by wada. Usada cant put you in jail. Usada has budget of 13 million across all sport. If you don't want to talk to them don't take up a sport that is signed up to the Olympic code. I don't understand the hate towards an agency dedicated to drug free sport.

Maybe I have. According to their website and other sources I looked up, they were only recognized by the Congress as the official United States doping agency. They may be private but they still have congressional support. I still would not talk to them. That is the type of stuff they did to the others. If the person is not truthful they try to get them for other charges. They may not be able to to it charge them directly, but all they need is a sympathetic congress critter. Sounds like my charge that they are only trying to be relevant could hold water. I have hate for an organization trying to use it's power for political standing in the world. What better way than to go after Lance. He already was investigated by all these other international organizations and our US law enforcement decided there was not enough to even go after him. I was not aware the Tour de France was an Olympic event. If they want to talk to him regarding triatholons then I think they should and could. He is a retired cyclist and they want to talk to him about cycling. I say he does not have to talk to him about crap regarding that. He has had is day in court so to speak during that time and he passed the test. It is done. If they want to do something different now, then do it. He played by the rules then. Just like baseball players. They played by the rules of baseball at the time. If you want to argue drug in sports for the sake of the records, then I say that all modern training aids should be banned to keep the sport pure. If not, there will never be comparable records. Maybe we should ban most medicines from sports because the fact they lived through the flu when they would not have 100 years ago is a disadvantage. I know I am being over the top, but I don't think using modern aids is a big deal. Everyone has swung so hard on the hype of drugs in sports that it has completely turned me against the anti people. It is beyond common sense. Because of the hype of drugs in sports that there may be many helpful drugs that the public could use to have healthier longer lasting life but may not due to banning everything is site because of the poor athletic records.

Lance beat the system. You know it, I know it, and the USADA knows it. So they are trying to get him one way or another. This is not a criminal hearing. The USADA does not need to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. They just need to present facts and rule if the coincidence of these facts is enough to ban him.

So, he has two plays:

Fight it and spend his fortune defending himself against an org that does not need to have proof to win. He will lose the fight and would have burned a ton of his own cash. In the end, GUILTY

Not fight it, be presumed guilty, save his money, and live with the same results as option A.

It is a lose/lose for Lance. Might as well save the cash and leave things open to speculation from both sides.