New boat soon, but need help

I am looking at getting a new '08 or '09 boat for family use (end of year deals). Budget in the 30K range (high 20K and low to mid 30K).
I have been watching YouTube videos for a few weeks now to see the different kind of waves that are created by different boats (the '09 crash pictures in this board are also a great location to look at different waves and have a good laugh). Some of those waves are huge and look like a lot of fun to surf, on the other hand some look like a lot of work to surf.
As I said, we are family use only and we may get up to doing a few flips on a wakeboard but mostly casual ski(sorry, we have one of those in our family), wake and surf. I love the idea of a good wake boat but got turned on to the idea of a Yamaha 212X. Tons of storage, good gas mileage, built in ballast of 750lbs (2 bags), very shallow draft and a good size for our family (21ft).
Couple of things I need help with:
1) has anyone road behind a 212X (wake or surf)? If so what were your thoughts and how was it compared to a wake boat?
2) I need the quick down and dirty on what you think makes a good wake. Looking more for personal opinions than the nuts and bolts.
3) Anybody have any strong reasons I should not be looking at the 212X?
Thanks for all the help, I think we are going out tomorrow and I will try to get some crash pictures for the crash thread.

Is it possible to create a good surf wake with a jet boat? I would think at the speeds we surf at that a jet boat would be washing out its own wake. I have never tried to weight and surf a jet boat, but I have wakeboarded behind a yamaha AR230 and the water in between the wakes was very mushy. I am guessing it was from the jet drive. I did not enjoy boarding behind it due to this. It did have a pretty cool layout and would probably be good for an all around family boat.

The yamaha I rode in was a 2007 and was very loud compared to our boat. The owner also told me that fuel consumption was not very good compared to an I/O or an inboard.

DO NOT BUY THAT BOAT if you want to wakesurf or want to board at even an intermediate level. I have two friends that bought one. One sold it within a year to get a wake specific boat and the other wishes he could sell it. I would look at used inboards. You can probably find a lightly used inboard in your price range. If you do anything...please seriously consider not buying that boat for what you want to do.

I can't believe the fuel consumption would be better on a jet?!

We have a Yamaha wave blaster 760, and with one person on it, that thing sucks up more fuel per hour than our 330 hp Black Scorpion!

You will have a better resale on a wake specific boat. The wake it self will be a huge difference. Draft on most wake boats is 24-28 inches. I would suggjest more research on wake specific boats. Go to some dealers with the family and put every one in the boat. Try not to get stuck on one brand. Look at all of them. Climb in and get a feal for them. Get a boat that works best for you and fittts your needs. Supra, Master Craft,Malibu, Nautique,Tige,MB,Epic,Sanger,Ski Centurion,Moomba etc.

My sister bought an 08 230 and while they like it and I have to admit it's cool to hang out on, the wake is mediocre. It's too mushy to get any height on your wake jumps and the dual jets cause a lot of turbulence inside the wake. With the ballast it might be better but you need to test drive one to see. For surfing we haven't been able to dial it in to be able to let go of the handle. My theory is the jets keep pushing you away. It is possible to do it but you have to keep hold of the rope lightly to maintain position. Handling wise it steers like a tank, at low speeds it is harder than hell to keep a steady direction at idle let alone if you have a stiff breeze. Other wise it's a great boat and a lot of fun but I would either look a the single jet models or for a bit less money get a used v drive.

The Yamaha jet boat does not sound like what you are looking for. You can put antlers on a dog, but its still a dog. A jet boat will never be a good wake boat.

Your comments about the fuel use is complete news to me. Every person I talk to say the jet boat gets much better fph than any inboard. Of course they were all trying to sell me a boat, hmmmm. They also are darn tootin sure their boats produce perfect wakeboard wake. When the question about surfing behind the boats is brought up, it never seems to get answered.
My gut was telling me what you have all confirmed. Ok, so the jet boat is out. I would have been REALLY upset if I would have found this site after I bought the boat. Thanks a lot.
So, I will switch my research to a wakeboard boat. For the past few weeks I have been looking through the web nightly for info on wakeboard boats. Looking at boats for sale, pulling up reviews on various boat review sites, checking boat values in the NADA guide, reading comments in forums like these, and on and on and on....MY HEAD HURTS!
I purchase items for work every day that are well over the price of a boat and don't break a sweat. In the old days you bought a boat because it floated, it could pull a skier and had a place for the beer cooler. Now there are so many options, upgrades, ballasts, perfect wake, perfect pass, perfect start(?), flat metal with hydraulics to create a wake, etc.
A couple of items I did really like on the 212X were the rear lounge area, kids love to swim, and no prop. I know the prop thing I can work around, but most of the swim(?) platforms behind wake boats seem to be an afterthought and not really part of a boat. Is this by design or are there times when this platform may come off?
So to leave you with a wide open question….What would you say are the most important and/or necessary items of a wakeboard boat? And why?
I already asked the wife about the pole and tap in this thread http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/725894.html?1252962988 , she didn’t say no!

Another good thread I have read http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/731468.html?1252468238

Jet boat will be the largest mistake of your life.

Jet boats are pretty good for many uses and do have good fuel use for many things but the jet is not efficient at slow speeds so it would be very costly surfing, and hard to control the speed.
The Malibu XTi, one of the Svfaras, and my Sanger have a rear lounge. The swim deck on most inboards comes off so the boat is shorter to put in a garage. On an I/O it doesn't always come off because the drive sticks out farther. The best part about an inboard's deck is that it's right at the water. My five year old would climb in and out by herself without a ladder and with her PFD on. It's great.

Jet boats are not fuel efficient. Whomever has told you this is trying to sell you a Jet Boat.

A prop beats a jet in efficiency any day of the week.(on the water that is)

PM Sent.

Tower,for the obvious wakeboarding aspect, and it gets things off the floor. ballast, bigger wake. Perfect pass, it will save your marriage. The rest you can live without.

In your price range, you should be able to get a good optioned out boat in the 04-05 range though.

Good call on ditching the jet. Aaron above is correct, if you can get to some dealers and check them out. From there you can narrow which boat you like the best. You probably can not get new for that price but there are some great used boats out there. Most boat Owners baby their boats and don't put too many hours on them. I bought mine that was 3 years old and only 45 hours. I saved $15k to $20k off a new one.

Defintely stick with a V-Drive.

What is the difference between the hull shapes?
And any thoughts on this boat http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-Supra-Launch-20SSV_W0QQitemZ140345579184QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPowe r_Motorboats?hash=item20ad3f96b0&_trksid=p4506.c0. m245

I just noticed that the above boat has carpet everywhere. And I have read a lot about people liking the snap in carpet instead.

How about this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2007-Centurion-Avalanche-C4-wakeboarding-boat-43-hrs_W0QQitemZ290348606843QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPower_ Motorboats?hash=item439a20257b&_trksid=p4506.c0.m2 45

I don't follow pricing on Supra's, but I would think you should be able to get more than a 20 foot boat on a single axle trailer for $40,000.00

Centurion looks priced a little more reasonably.

(Message edited by rio_sanger on September 17, 2009)

And another
http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=817925

This one has possibilities
http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=817835
If there are no pumps for the ballast system, how does it fill/empty?

My price range has increased since I noticed that anything within the 20Kto30K range was older than what I wanted. It was also a lot of the boats with the engine stuck in the middle of the sitting area and that is one thing I hated about a friends boat I road in earlier this year.

In my price range and close to home...thoughts?
http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=817612

How hard is it to add a 'built-in' ballast system to a boat?
How about adding a 'perfect pass' system?
How about 'skier heaters'?

http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=817145

Those two boats above look good. This one ^^^ has flood gates that open up in the hull of the boat to let in the ballast. People that have them love em. You are def on the right track now.

Just so I understand, flood gates being gates that you would open while in motion to fill or empty the ballasts.
(Running and ducking for cover after asking stupid question)

The MB's have teh pure vert pumpless ballast. I've had it on a few boats now and IMO it is hands down the best ballast system ever. fills and drains in 60 seconds. My B52V Widebody demo is available for sale too

Boat doesn't have to running to fill just to empty. Good question

Many people have plumbed in their own ballast systems (search the boats, accessories, tow vehicles forum here for threads upon threads), and again Perfect Pass is a relatively common DIY job, heaters you don't really hear about DIY jobs but I know they are out there.

All these can also be done (well, maybe not the extra ballast quite so much for liability reasons) by a shop/dealer if you're willing to shell out the extra $$ and don't feel like doing it yourself.

They would all be DIY. Suggestion on sites where I can do a little research on the equipment?

That MB is nice and that nautique is just beautiful. Both are great boats.

Love this thread!
Bryan goes from a Yamaha jet to a SANTE! Nice!!!

+1 on the MB. As a first boat, it's been a dream. Pure Vert ballast is GREAT!

I'd pick up that 07 Moomba Outback fro $29k. It's close and a great all around boat. We have an 03 and love ours.

The Moomba states a V-Drive, that is not the one that sits in the middle of the floor is it?
V-Drive = back of boat under the rear pads
Direct drive = under cover in middle of boat deck

http://wichita.craigslist.org/boa/1377271324.html

Yes, you are right. V drive is the motor in the back.

That Centurion on Ebay looks nice. They really are nicer boats than most people give them credit for. If I didn't have a baby on the way, I wouldn't be selling mine. They ride and handle great, and they are pretty decent at just about everything.

When they say "Built in Ballast", is it safe to assume that it is a system with built in pumps and hoses?
I was on a boat last weekend that was to have a "Built in Ballast", but to fill and empty the bags you had to stop the boat, open compartments where bags were, connect hose and pump, put other end of hose in water and plug in the pump, wait 10 minutes and repeat for other bag.
I would see a "Built in Ballast" being where all you need to do is flip a switch at the driver controls to fill or empty each one.

Ok, leaning toward the Moomba. Right sized boat in the right price range.
What are the types of questions to be asking and what should I be looking for when testing them out. I have been reading the other threads on this but are there any Moomba specific items?
This was posted in the 'What dont you like about your boat?' thread: "The lack of freeboard in my outback V". What is a freeboard?

Another one from the same thread:
"08 Moomba LSV
When loaded down in the bow (1000lbs) the nose dips really easy.
The carpet is tough to keep looking new and would love to have a snap-out carpet option.
Slow ballast but I've helped it out a little.
Still the best bang for the buck in my opinion."

built in ballast usually means you just hit a switch. Low freeboard means the boat is shallow, meaning the gunnels are low.

If you get serious about a boat, you need to have a mechanic look at it to make sure there are no compression or tranny problems.

Thanks for the pointer Paul, my brother-in-law is a mechanic and will be checking out anything before I buy.

I went to Moomba.com to compare their boats and they don't compare anything other than the basic info: length, width, draft, weight, capacity, fuel and engine. All models are pretty much the same, what are the key differences between the Moomba models not listed above?

Keeping in mind that we are a family of 3 (sometimes 4, long story) and would often not have a full boat with friends. We would be boarding and surfing behind the boat with full ballast (maybe a little tubing for the kid in all of us). We would be mostly on small to medium sized lakes, including lake powell.
Would I really need the larger V8 that Moomba offers? Or would the 325 be just fine?

I would get a boat with EFI but past that the Hp is nice but not necessary. The economy is not better on a lower Hp engine if you drive them the same. The initial purchase cost is lower for lower Hp.
I like my glued down carpets more than snap in types. That part is preference.
As Paul said freeboard is the minimum height above the water of the boat. Another part to look at is the interior height. That's how high the seat back sits. That's how easy it is to fall out of the boat. With all of this the test drives will show what feels comfortable and what doesn't.

This is a great thread! Bryan you came to a good place and are asking great questions, especially since you are into tow sports. Many, many boaters do it the hard way buying several boats before ending up with an inboard. Spend some time test driving. Good luck.

Andy, everyone saved me from the jet boat mistake and that was step #1.
Everyone here has been more than helpful in all of my questions, even the newbee ones .

Steip #1 save you tens of thousands and a year or two's time!

The 325 is just fine. If you are going to be on bigger lakes like Powell - you may want to look into boats with higher freeboard. The Moomba sits fairly low in the water and if Powell gets some big waves out there from time to time - you may have issues. We bring our boat on a lake with BIG boats (40 footers) and they throw out some huge wakes and we haven't swamped it - but if you're inexperienced or worried, maybe look into something that sits in the water higher like a Air Natique or one of the Supra boats.

The Moomba is a great all around boat. You can still ski it, you can surf it, can make a nice intermediate level wakeboard wake and the 325hp is plenty.

I've had my "low freeboard" Sanger V210 on Powell, Havasu, etc. many a time with no issues. Learning how to drive to keep the nose up through on-coming wakes is an easy & quick learn. I wouldn't worry much over freeboard issues if other characteristics of the boat fit what you're looking for.

Another good thread on Moomba V vs the LSV
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/728010.html?1251354578
FYI - putting these links here so I can find them later

Good 07 vs 09 XLV:
A.J. I have a friend with a 07 XLV and another friend with a 08 XLV. Here are the pros and cons of it.

Pros: Tons of space in the boat, the wake is pretty nice even with just with stock ballast. Surf wake is ok with stock ballast.

Cons: Drives like a pig, ballast pumps suck, the boat feels under powered for the size of the boat which is also a problem when adding extra weight. The boat can tip on its side and chime lock in a sharp turn because it creates an air bubble. Makes driving double ups kinda sucky and getting the surf wake dialed kinda tricky. Interior feels kinda cheap

Over all, a good boat... but you get what you pay for. If I were you, find like a 2005-09 23ft Malibu Wakesetter or even the original Wakesetter is awesome and will do everything you need it to do. Killer wake, boat drives like a dream, the wedge is awesome for surfing. Thats what I would go with. I'm not bias to Malibus, but they make a killer boat.

Here Bryan

http://moomba.com/msgboard/index.php

Come join us at the Moomba forum. You can get true owner insight rather than people just saying "I have a buddy" or "I saw one on the lake" or whatever.

and Bryan - the LSV and XLV that you are reading the comparison on Moomba Mobius'. They are different boats.

The Outback is smaller, more nimble and has less room and options.

Jeff,
Thanks, and I have been going through that forum also.
I like posting here since I have not made the final decision on Moomba yet. A couple of other boats have started to arise that may also work.
Everyone here has also been great about answering other questions.

Bryan,

for good all around family boats that you can get new or near new that are near your price range I'd look at the Moomba Outback V, and the Malibu V-Ride. Both of these are great boats for tubing, surfing, boarding and skiing behind.

www.moomba.com
www.malibuboats.com

good luck, i agree step #1 was a great learning, and savings to you.

(Message edited by tj_in_kc on September 18, 2009)

Found my boat....
Bet you could get a huge wake with the right props and some weight,

Trying to find a used price for a Epic on NADA, but Epic is not listed. Is it listed under another name?

No, probably too new and not enough of them sold to have comprehensive data on pricing.

ok, any idea on a value range for a '07 or '08?

Between 38-45k for an Epic in that year range. There was a dealership with 08's for 39k and 09's for 45k. Ill see if I can find it again.

NO JET BOAT.... PEace OF pOO

Anything wrong with the design of a '07 23V Epic boat? As far as I can tell this is the first year Epic made boats, and usually the first year of any vehicle production line has issues.

The first year they made the boats they came with an engine from Volvo and they had some problems. Next year came out with the mercruiser engine which is what most boat companies use.

(Message edited by fuller313 on September 21, 2009)

I read about the engine and the issue with the Volvo engine loosing pressure on a quick take off, but it can be taken care of with a baffled oil pan.
What about their exhaust? Something about the mfg using bad epoxy?
Any other items like these?