Post your pics (thread 6)

Not taken as belligerent, no apology required. There is one simple fact about wakesurfing that differentiates it from all other watersports. There are times when you are surfing that you are traveling faster than the boat, and at those times injury can result. This is why handles that allow an arm or other appendage to fall thru are dangerous. Same being true if you are close to the boat, driving down the face towards the boat. If you can guarantee that the surfer never gets closer than 20 feet from the boat, there is probably little risk. I'm doubtful you can guarantee that, though. With a skiier, say being pulled at 25 mph and probably 60 feet back, there is almost never a time with the skiier is actually going faster than the boat, save for when they are whipped way out to the side, or the boat comes to rest with the skiier still afloat.

It's the surfers ability to overtake the boat, directly inline with the prop, while it is still moving (prop turning) that poses the risk and that isn't present in other towed watersports.

thats what I didn't understand. I wasn't aware you could catch the boat. That makes since looking back at his pic. Thanks for your time.

Very well put Surfdad. Others should pay attention to your comments.

I remember a thread from skimonline describing the exact scenario Jeff mentioned. The rider approached the boat a little fast and nosedived falling head first into the prop. By some miracle he escaped with just minor cuts to his forehead but was quite adamant about how he was millimeters from dying.

Many times, I've gone to the back of the wake, generated a ton of speed to do an ollie or arial trick, missed my approach and had to hit the breaks HARD (all of my weight on my back foot) not to end up on the swim step.

With the right board and right wake you can easily go faster than the boat.

my 2 cents.... what you do behind the boat is your business...if you hurt yourself, hey you knew the risk...

wakesurfing compared to wakeboarding "appears" to have less bodily injury...however, if someone does get hurt (risk behind a i/o is much greater) the results generally mean serious injury or death..

with that being said, think the real concern is if someone (or enough people) gets badly hurt or killed wakesurfing (behind a i/o). that wakesurfing might start to get banned and eventually outlawed (much like the kite tubes) or even worse claiming someone starting a stupid lawsuit againest any waksurf company associated claiming ignorance(stupid law suites like this claiming ignorance or the stupid factor seem to prevail in our society)

wih that being said, i am with doing what you want to do behind your boat (i/o, v drive, dd and i understand it is a large boat with a large wake, and you are further back...but some people may not understand the difference and try it behind their 20' sea ray/bayliner- dont laugh i have been asked many, many times)...

so for those who want to ride behind a i/o no matter what the size (i agree- bigger does have a increase in safety over smaller but some may not "get it") - please dont get hurt/killed and screw it up for the rest of us....

(Message edited by clubmyke on October 03, 2006)

I disagree with one point you make Clubmyke. In your opening statement you say "you knew the risk" and that isn't the case in many situations. In fact Paul, here started this dialog because he WAS unaware. He wasn't claiming "I know and I'm doing it anyway", as Curtis does. I believe that Curtis is in the minority and that folks like Paul are the vast majority.

The death of a child due to CO poisioning on Folsom some years back caused the surviving father to create the public awareness web site skiboatdeaths.com (I believe that is correct). He makes the simple statement that while EVERYONE knows the issue with CO now, back then, no one spoke of it.

I think that the folks posting here or lurking are uniquely informed about the risks inherent in wakesurfing but we are by far a minority in the watersports community.

Less than two months ago, we spoke to an individual that was wakesurfing behind an OUTBOARD without a PFD, merely told him you know that is dangerous and he basiclly told us to pound sand. I would be willing to bet that he had NO CLUE of the dangers involved.

I also appreciate the desire to avoid legislation, but I don't think you can achieve that by assuming folks will do the right thing. Self-regulation requires that those of us that enjoy the sport and want to see it survive be advocates for the safe practice of the sport. IMO that means stepping up and telling "outboard and no PFD boy" you know that's dangerous. It means speaking out in favor of safe practices in public forums as you and most folks posting here on Wakeworld do as with Paul's original question...and as you close your post above - don't ruin it for the rest of us. I also believe that it means practicing safe wakesurfing, not posting pictures without a PFD or surfing behind an I/O. This sort of behavior condones unsafe practices and it also confuses folks like Paul, again, who is representative of the vast majority of folks out there.

I am of the opinion that we should self-regulate to avoid legislation and that requires modeling behavior and actions that are safe, such that others who are less informed aren't mislead or confused, I also believe it requires advocacy from those of us that ARE informed. Which should include, in my opinion, speaking out against unsafe behaviors. Like the young Mister Taco did within this post saying that surfing behind an I/O isn't wise (if a bit more dramaticly ). I believe a stronger statement and posture than "Don't get hurt" is required.

I strongly disagree with that statement and will NEVER knowingly sell a board to I/O owner. In fact we are putting a disclaimer on both the website and the boards via a removable sticker. (about riding behind an I/O or outboard which I think all board makers should adopt in some form)

I'm all for allowing people to be morons but not when it means a high possibility of death on something I designed.

(Message edited by CAskimmer on October 04, 2006)

BTW-the guy from skimonline who almost died said he had the same attitude prior to the accident "I'll do whatever I want behind my boat". His position changed 180 degrees to the point where almost adopted it as a "cause"

Again, thanks for the advice. I think the dangers of surfing behind a regular I/O are pretty apparent, and i was by no means thinking you could surf behind one. Its the bigger boat question that had me a little confused on how you could hit the prop from that far back. I realized you could advance on a the boat a little, but I didn't understand that you could gain that much ground. I will stick to learning behind my xstar/2/1. Its just a shame that the wake on that monster can't be used.

I don't mean to come off as being too harsh and I'm definitely not singling anyone out. I'm just dreading the day I have to read that letter from grieving family members nor am I looking forward to being on the receiving end of a wrongful death lawsuit that could have been avoided.

jeff,

total agreement with you..but i took a self effacing stance just to be pc... as americans, we are pretty arrogant..we dont like being told what we can or cannot do (i really try to individualize my approach to a given situation and generally if it is too strong, most people will shut down..as you stated in your incident (i/o and no lifevest), people will do what they want to do. very few will take advice or the high ground. it is very sad but true..

i may be a minority on this one, but i would rather allow wakesurfing behind any kind of boat then having a law passed banning it behind a i/o..

in the meantime, i still think warning people of the dangers and asking them please not to hurt themselves is the most effective message..

(Message edited by clubmyke on October 04, 2006)

Mark Sher and I were having that same discussion the other day regarding selective banning and he shared your opinion. The reality is that legislators won't differentiate between specific boats, it's too cumbersome and hard to enforce, they'll tend to make any such restrictions sweeping. Plus we, within the wakesurfing community, don't truly want any such momentum as you point out.

do you think that the growth of wakesurfing may be its demise due to the possible increase of i/o, c02, and other injuries/deaths ?

That is an interesting question. Makes a person
wish they had a crystal ball. Certainly the
increase in participation creates a higher risk
for injury, at some point. The sport, when
practiced behind an inboard ski boat is very
safe.


Currently there is a tremendous amount of
representation in existence. The AWSA is active
in preventing legislature that would negatvely
impact wakesurfing, as well as creating greater
awareness. Larry Meddock with the WSIA is a
huge proponent of wakesurfing (and all
watersports) and works diligently to protect our
interests. There are several manufacturers that
also work to safeguard the sport and, of course,
thier business interests.

My feeling is that there is enough
infrastructure to prevent the sport from being
outlawed, ouright but not from being restricted
in some sense. I could see specific lakes or
bodies of water disallowing wakesurfing.
Especially when those folks wakesurfing are
doing so in an unsafe or irresponsible manner.

I can also see the USCG seeking limitations on
the amount of ballast that can be used while
wakesurfing. It's pretty common for folks to
exceed USCG weight recommendations when
wakesurfing. It would be reasonable to expect a
push regarding unsafe operation tickets for over-
weighting. If there is a significant increase
in injuries associated with prop hits while
wakesurfing the USCG would undertake to
safeguard the public, I'm certain. Perhaps just
warning stickers, it would NOT be unreasonable
to expect they would seek to make wakesurfing
illegal behind an outboard or I/O. Should this
happen, I agree with your assertion, it creates
a momentum that can be hard to overcome.

may that day ever come..