I got ripped off Need advice

I purchased a 2003 Supra ssv from a dealer in Burbank CA for 38k. He told me that the boat had 20 hrs and sure enough on the hour meter on the boat it said 20. He also said the boat was in like new to bran new condition. I looked at it and the boat looked great from the outside. I live in Utah so I towed it back up here and it sat for a month and a half until last week when I took it to lake powell for its first time out. It had a bunch of problems right off the bat. such as the drive shaft leaked a tremendous amount of water and the bilge pump didn't work the perfect pass servo was screwed the sterring was stiff. So I got suspicious and pulled the boat out of the water especially sense I could bilge out the leeking water. Drove it up to salt lake and had the local dealer check the engine computer for hrs turns out the boat has 296 hrs. So my question is what do I do to get my money back and what legal options do I have? has anybody heard of this or know anyone who has had to sue to get money back?

Contact a lawyer and sue the sob. That is fraud, not to mention false advertisement. You will get his licence pulled for sure, not to mention his shop could read "Hyrum Kirton Supra"

First, do a websearch on the California Lemon Law. That should give you a clear indicator of what you may be legally entitled to do about the misrepresented boat.

I completely sympathize with you on all of this, but you did break a cardinal rule of buying a boat. Always try to water test it before purchase. I broke the same rule, but it was a well cared for boat and I had a pretty good indicator of it's history.

Was the dealer a Supra Dealer?? Or just a boat/RV dealer?? If the guy was not a Supra dealer, they may have had no clue as to the hour meter being switched, this is common for bad Tach meters and the hours are reset.

I would say that 38k is alot for a boat that has some flaws. First thing I would do is contact the dealer and talk to him about it after checking the lemon law. You may be entitled to compensation or refund, but if you like the boat, you may simply want to talk to the guy and see if they are willing to buck up to have the boat fixed up.

Bilge pump-> 50 bucks tops. Check the breaker or fuse too, it may be that simple.

Steering-> Probably needs a lube, may need to lube the rudder as well. If not, new steering cable, don't know price.

Drive Shaft Leak-> Repack, any boat dealer could do this, not sure of the price.

PP Servo?? Call them with the model number and see what to do and what it will cost.

Harp on the guy who sold it to you, look them up in the BBB to see if they have past complaints. He may be liable for a full refund, but might be willing to fix the quirks as compensation.

Good luck.

Take a step back here...your first step should be to contact the dealer and let him know that this boat was falsely represented. Maybe it was an honest (albeit totally stupid) mistake by the dealer. Let him know that if he refuses to refund your money, you'll be on the phone immediately to a lawyer, the better business bureau, and several consumer advocacy groups, not to mention the local news stations. You should even let him know that you want to be reimbursed for having to drive the boat back to SoCal to return it, see what he says.

If he gives you any grief at all, then you should definitely contact a lawyer. Avoid it if you can though, lawyer fees will eat into the $$ you'll get back once you get the boat returned...

Flux, i believe the CA lemon law refers to new vehicles that are purchased and have several defects, putting them out of commission often enough to have them considered lemons. I don't believe it applies to used cars/boats. This is a clear case of misrepresentation...

I could not tell you all the details, but used can be covered too. The law is for vehicles that are impaired and have safety/reliability issues. I would say some of what is going on may be covered. He does need to give the dealer a chance to correct the issues. It is worth looking into for sure

There is definate misrepresentaion though, I agree. The guy might not have know though, especially if it was a trade in and the dealer is not a supra dealer.

That's Sucks. I stick to a regimented criteria when buying. First rule always when purchasing used, (Car, Boat, RV, etc...) is to always test drive it even if it means towing a boat an hour or so to find water. If the seller (dealer or private) refuses I always go with no deal and move on. I know that's not your situation and dealer's fault or not someone knew it had more than 20 hrs. Once your money exchanges hands it's hard to recover. I'm in the market for used RV and I have already had a couple of dealers tell me I couldn't road test towing my boat. One dealer has called me back twice I still said no deal until I can road test it towing.
Most of those items don't sound too costly and are normal maintenance other than the PP servo. The biggest complaint should be the amount of Hrs. on the motor. I would definitely contact Supra and let them know how this dealer is mis-representing their boats. Good luck and I hope it all works out.

The problem with contacting the dealer is he is going to tell you he didn't know. I am not sure if it is about the boat being a lemon(used boats can have small problems), but the misrepresentation of the hrs. I would ask him what kind of check they do on a boat they take as trade. If they say they do a complete diagnostic, then you've got em.

Jeff-I have never heard of a dealer letting someone hook a boat and tow it. Have they let you in the past? I am pretty sure that their insurance requirements could be making that call, not the dealer. Just a thought.

Paul,
I have had dealers let me tow a boat with new Navigators, Denali's, and Escalades when shopping for a new truck. Good dealers want to make sure you are happy so you come back. These were even out of state dealers while I was on vacation.

I believe by law you are entitled to a full refund weather the dealer was aware of the issue or not, that's how it works with cars and mileage. Do some online investigation or call a lawyer and see if it works that way for boats. Was there any affidavid of correct hours in the paperwork? See if you can work something out with the dealer, if not blast them on every internet board you can find.

hyrum,
did you demo the boat before you took delivery? did the dealer have you sign any paperwork regarding the purchase "as is" or "no warranty implied or expressed". i think they are required by law to have you sign some sort of odometer (hours) disclosure statement, stating to the best of their knowledge, they believe the hours to be correct. they have you sign this in agreement and relinquishing them from any future liability. these dealers are usually very good at having all their paperwork in order for situations just like this. i would hate to see you get the short end of a stick. may be better off seeing if dealer will share necessary expenses for repairs 50/50 since you are both at fault?

I could see behind a truck more than a big RV. I just thought I heard that a while back. I must have been wrong.

Well I guess we will see what is gonna happen with this. It sounds like nobody knows anybody who has accually had this happen to them before. We are finding a lawyer to talk to before we even talk to the dealer. I did sign a milage disclosure statement but it didn't have anything written in, its blank. I am hoping that because the hour meter in the boat still says 24 that we have a strong enough case to warrent a complete refund. I just want our money back is all. Its not like this is over a few hrs its 270 off. Anyway thanks for the info. Oh its just a used boat dealer not a supra dealer and that is unfortunate.

Hyrum

Hyrum,
Sorry to hear about your issue. I would be livid! Do the research and you will be able to work a case. Keep us posted cause this will be useful information for all readers to come. Thanks and best of luck getting it resolved!

I agree with Flux:

The dealer is rotten for selling you a boat that was not water tested and appears to have the "hours adjusted" ( FYI you can look at the PP for hours too), but one should also test these things when you make a $38K buy. Have your local dealer test the engine and tranny, but if everything else works - count yourself lucky.

Bilge - 50 bucks installed
Re-pack shaft seal - 80 bucks installed
Steering cable - 350 installed
PP servo - guessing 100 bucks to fix this
Hour difference - 1500.00

Ask for a check for 2500 from the dealer to make you whole and move on. That is if you can.

Also - on a boat the hour meter is an optional item, so the readings are just "guidelines". It is NOT like a car, airplane or helicopter.

Lawyers will only cost you more money, i will guess the legal advice will go something like this:
we will have to research this - 500.00
we will need to ensure the approach to the dealer is well managed - 1000.00
we will help manage the settlement - 2000.00

I could go on, if you don't ask the dealer for anything you won't get anything and once you bring Lawyers into the mix it will cost you more $ and takes more time.

How is the level at LP by the way?

[I did sign a milage disclosure statement but it didn't have anything written in, its blank.]

Ummm, ouch!?

Lemon laws are for vehicles, they exclude boats and RVs. Also this would not full under the Lemon statues even if it were applicable to boats.

The odometer statement (I assume you're talking about the back of the Title) is for autos only. Boats do not have any hour disclosure.

The dealer may not have known. He may have taken the boat on trade or bought it wholesale. It's not likely he had a scan tool to read the ECM.

I would try to work with the dealer in a CALM AND FAIR WAY without saying the word "lawyer." It sounds like the problems are minor ... except the hours. If they paid to fix the items and gave you a discount, would you keep the boat?

From a legal standpoint, you may not have any options. Fraud is going to be difficult to prove. Try to work it out with the dealer. I think you're going to waste a lot of time and get very frustrated trying to get a refund ... with no luck.

Well good luck and I hope it works out ok for you.

Caveat Emptor! Why didn't you lake test your boat before towing to Utah? You signed a blank odometer disclosure? I think that if you try to play "tough" with the dealer, he can tell you to STFU and go away. I'm sure the boat was bought 'as is' leaving you with no recourse whatsoever. Harsh for sure! I would, very gently, ask the dealer if there was anyway he could help you with YOUR problem. Otherwise fix your boat and learn the lesson. Sorry about your boat.

Well we are seeking legal advice before calling the dealer because we don't know what the laws are on such things in Los Angeles/ Burbank. If it turns out that we have no legal recourse I don't think I will even call the dealer because he will surely know that and thus is changing the hrs on all his boats. If the hours meter on the boat means nothing than surely I'm totally screwed. However considering that I have a boat with conflicting hour readings mechanical signs of use as well as proof that the dealer advertised the boat with 20 hrs and is in new condition if the state and or county of Los Angeles/ Burbank has any regulations regarding getting a dealer license and proper dealer behavior and disclosure. Even if the dealer didn't know if the boat had so many hours or he just plain lies about knowing the laws may say that as a Dealer in boats it’s his duty to know such things and correct it if possible. So given all of these considerations that is why I think it wise to talk to a lawyer about what options we do have and what we could possibly sue for and what are chances would be. Also it seems that none of you know anyone who has tried this before or know anything about what the laws actually are on misrepresentation and fraud. I have talked with someone who purchased a car that had the odometer changed and he got all his money back and about 1200 bucks in damages so best case scenario we may even come out ahead but with boats maybe nobody cares. We will see I guess.I will keep you all posted so next time somebody has the happen we all can tell him what his chances really are as far as the law is concerned.

why wouldnt u contact the dealer? was it a sour exchange in the first place?if not they may work with you...but keep us updated

I do not understand why people put so much value on the hour gauge in the first place?? What does it really mean? It is so easy to replace/tamper with the gauge I do not give them any value. I look at the condition of the boat and drive the boat. You can tell more about the boat from a test drive than any hour gauge can tell you. I have driven boats with on 30hrs that were beat to hell and drove like crap as well as boat with 600hrs that drove like new.

The only real way to know how many hours is on a used boat is to have the ECM scanned. In most cases the gauge and the ECM do not match since the traditional hour gauge measures how many hours the key was in the "on" position not how many hours are on the engine.



(Message edited by tod on May 25, 2005)

Does the ECM monitor only hours while the engine is running? Does the hour gauge measure hours with the key in the accessory position?

I think for every hour my boat runs We're cranking tunes tied up for 3 hours.

Murph, hours only turn when the engine is running, not in the accessory position.

Hyrum, you can talk to a lawyer for advice. You would still have a tough case proving fraud. The dealer probably did not know. That means proving that he intentionally misrepresented the boat would be difficult to prove. It is not the dealers "duty" to know things and correct them.

I was thinking maybe this boat was from a ski school. They usually turn them with about 300 hours. You should have driven the boat and had a mechanic check the ECM for hours.

I would still approach the dealer to see if there is a fair way to resolve your problem.

The odometer on an auto is completely diffent than on a vessel. I would not expect to get a full refund let alone any damages.

Ok, so it has 300 hours. It sound like it is in good condition. Aside from the few repair items (that could happen on any used boat) you never did reply what if the dealer were willing to refund $2,000. Would that make a differnce?

I'm not trying to rain on you, but I have seen these type of cases before and there is usually little positive outcome in the end.

Let us know what the lawyer says.

Don't be such an idiot. Contact the dealer, let them know the facts about what is wrong with the boat. They will hopefully step up to the plate and fix the problems and refund some money for the hour overstatement. If nothing happens from there, then proceed legally.

From a legal stand point, there has to be reasonable opportunity for both parties to resolve the issue.

Correct me if I am wrong... but you bought the boat because you want to be out on the water enjoying it. Correct? So why don't you contact the dealer, resolve the issue and enjoy the fact that you have the boat. Simple.

Why make things difficult?

Dont' mean to be harsh, but... if you don't resolve this in a timely and cost effective manner... you are going to end up with no boat and lots of legal costs...

And to top it off... no one will invite you out as a THIRD if you immediately persue legal representation without a reasonable opportunity to resolve a problem.

You would be the type where a person whould have waiver upon waiver upon waiver signed before setting foot into another person's boat.

1. Contact the dealer.
2. Reduce the price for the overstated hours.
3. Have the repairs made and looked over at a SUPRA dealer. Have the seller pay for that bill.
4. Hit the water and enjoy the boat.

Good luck!

Kyle, you've got it right. Resolve and enjoy. No use losing sleep and paying attorneys big $$$.

Kyle

Well i'm not sure I would be foolish to find out what legal options I have if it turns out that the dealer is a crook and won't give me a refund or any cash. Not to mention i'm doubtful that the dealer will give me a 2000 dollar check for the hrs and on top of that pay for all the repairs just cause I call him and ask. Are you kidding me, thats like 4500 bucks. And were talkin about a guy who gladly sells a boat to somebody claiming its in like new condition with 20 hrs without even taking the time to see if everything in the boat is working! I don't know what it takes to get a boat dealer license but it sounds like you have to be able to breath and if you want to rip people off your more than welcome cause the only thing that can happen to you is the new owner calling and kissing your ass to have you fix his boat and you can laugh all the way to the bank on that. Any why I am making things difficult is that I got lied to about a very expensive thing and whenever that happens its just a difficult thing! So in my opinon if this guy is a crook and he probably is, my ONLY option is to proceed legaly and if in the area of boat dealerships you are not responsible for what you sell if it is wrong or misrepresented than I will just fix the boat myself and feel lucky that it didn't light on fire and that the engine runs well and I could have gotten screwed even more.

Here is another tid bit of information reguarding boat dealers that you all should know. And delta dave was wrong on this point.

Negligent and Fraudulent Misrepresentation
During the course of showing a vessel or during negotiations leading to a vessel purchase, representations are often made concerning the quality or characteristics of the vessel. Great care must be taken when making such statements as liability can attach to the maker of any such statement. Tort law provides that a boat dealer will be liable to a purchaser for representations of material facts that are wrong and are found to have been made carelessly or negligently. For example, if a boat dealer were to tell a potential purchaser of a ski boat that the boat would travel 45 mph whereas , in fact, the boat could only travel 35 mph, the dealer would be liable to the purchaser. Also, if the age or history of the vessel was misrepresented the dealer would be liable. It does not matter whether the Boat Dealer honestly believed the truth of what was told to the purchaser. If the fact was material and if the misrepresentation was relied on by the purchaser, the Dealer is liable.

A dealer is also responsible for fraudulent representations. If the dealer in the above examples knew the boat was capable of a speed of only 35 mph or knew and purposely misrepresented the age or history of the vessel he would be liable for fraudulent misrepresentation. This liability would attract punitive damages.

Hyrum,

Your 23, per your profile, and probably don't have loads of experience with these types of major purposes yet. Consider this to be your first bad experience. In lawsuits, the only people getting rich are the attorneys. Why not try the "easy" way and nicely call the dealer back and see what he can say. Explain the problems you have found, then wait to see what his response is. He may ask you what you want him to do, and you can start off asking for the repairs to be paid for and some manner of compensation for the hours discrepancy. If this boat is used, that means he bought it that way, and perhaps it was misrepresented to him. He unknowwingly passed it to you and you have uncovered the hours. Perhaps the boat is a salvage, or a repo and so the hour meter was replaced. While it seems shady, there is an opportunity that he was being on the up and up. Give him the opportunity to make it right. Life's to short to wander around threatening to sue everyone who "harms" you.

Eric

Funny part is,it is most of "you" guys saying sue. From what I read, he is consulting an attorney to see what his options are. I see it as a smart move. He may have to pay a small fee for the visit, but he will know what to say/not say, what laws apply to the situation. Knowing these things, he will be educated when talking to the dealer and the dealer will have less room to BS him. The dealer is likely more familiar with these laws as he is in the business, so Hyrum getting legal advice is merely leveling the field.

I would venture a guess that after finding out how the law applies, Hyrum would likely talk to the dealer and document the entire conversation. If it goes poorly, the attorney writes a letter (amazing how many times that alone does the trick). At this point, the legal fees are fairly minor. If the letter is ignored, then the documentation that Hyrum has from the sale and the subsequent attempts to resolve become key. Do they add up to enough to show intent of the dealer to defraud. If so, then it may become a court case and cost some money.

All of you giving this advice, how many of you have had to deal with lawyers in a business sense or sit in a lawyers office and be deposed?

(Message edited by RKG on May 25, 2005)

If you're going to get a lawyer, you might as well try to get your money back. I guess all you would have to prove is that you didnt use your boat for 200 or so hours in a months and a half.
Or, if you're willing to fork up 38K for a used boat, you might as well spend an extra 5k to get it fixed.

Worst comes to worse and you've still got a nice boat that needs a few repairs. You can't beat yourself if there isn't a resolution. What it ends up meaning is that you paid a few thousand too much for a nice boat (if it is infact clean and nicely kept). 200 hours on a well maintained boat isn't a lot. I'm selling my '02 right now with 450 hours on it. It still looks new and runs great. Last night I was on a friends '02 with 180 hours that was totally beat. If the boat looks nice I wouldn't worry too much.

Just my '02. Good luck with the process. It's really a pretty bum deal. I could see stretching the truth and saying it had 100 hours, but 20 is a major lie.

I guess I better not sell my boat... I think it has 80 hours on it... but the hour meter states 357 hours. I would be misrepresenting no matter how I advertised it. I guess I will just keep it. Also, when I bought my boat... which was brand new... they stated as all boat companies do these days "NO WOOD" I found a small piece of wood about 3 inches by 2 inches, which was used as backing for a holding some wires.

Should I have sued or just let the dealer and manufacturer know what I experienced. If they chose to ignore or deny, then I would persue legally if it were a big deal.

I suspec that your dealer did not know to some extent about all of the problem you are having. He needs to be made aware so he can try to resolve. If you proceed legally right away, he will seek legal advice and they will state, do not do anything until the courts say you have to.

Call them. Be specific. Tell them how you feel. If they help you... then great... if not... I dont think you have hurt your opportunities to proceed legally.

The fact is, is if you get stuck with the boat as is... you may not get any assistance from them. Does the dealer even know you are having problems?

Yes it is true that people try and deceive people or screw people over, but if he is not a fly by night operation, I am sure he is just not familiar with the boat and things that they need to look at.

I have seen sterndrive dealers sell used tournament boats and vica versa and they don't necessarily know what to look at when it is a boat they are not familiar with.

Pay what you want! Pay who you want!

While you are spending money on your lawyer, I will be enjoying riding in a boat.

The bottom line is. You have a boat, it runs.. it looks good... yes it needs some work... get a quote and send it to the dealer... let him know you arent screwing him around!

Maybe this post is actually you screwing the boat dealer around.

You bought the boat... used it... now you are in a financial crunch... things are going wrong with the boat... and you are using this message board as evidence in your court case when in reality the boat dealer is the one getting screwed.

I get the story now....

one other thing... i see that the boat has 296 hours... you better have him take it back or you should flog it on ebay...

most tournament boats only have a 300 hour lifetime. after that... they implode... and you dont want that happening... it will be another legal battle.

so lets change this post to... start the bidding!!!

FOR SALE 2003 SUPRA LAUNCH SSV - taking offers. Anything close to $38k and I think you may have a deal!!! Contact Hyrum Kirton!

kyle, you should consider a better maintenance program if you think tourney boats only have 300 hrs of life? that is hilarious...
our '04 sante has over 370 and not a glitch. had a tige 22v before that with 780 hrs when we sold it for $6k less than we bought new and our first boat, a '90 supreme ms has over 1400 hours on a 350 carb and our friends who bought it from us 9 years ago still ski it every weekend in the summer and it has never been rebuilt... maybe try changing your oil once in awhile.

Contact the dealer through certified mail so that you can document their receiving the document, and thus creating a paper trail. Indicate in the letter all of the details in chronological order.

Then, contact a lawyer and bring a lawsuit against the dealer. If the dealer did infact sell you the boat in good faith it will come out in the lawsuit. Contacting the dealer with a dispute such as this will only result in a negative because guilty or innocent, he/she will likely be on the defensive. Telling them how you "feel" will get you nowhere. This is the real world!

Also, don't take advice on line that exacerbates the problem in any way...like selling the boat on eBay and purjering yourself!

i feel u man i bought a 1984 ski nautique and north alabama pulled it down to mobile where i live the man said it ran awsome when we got it home we ran it and the engine would crank and run but it didnt have any power, took it to a mechanic and the enigine had to be rebuilt, $4,000!! then we couldnt take him to court because he lived in such a small town and he was a lawyer and was friends with the judge in his town which is where we would have to go!

yeah...300 hours? The boat is just broken in. I have 745 hours and my boat starts abd runs like new still.

I have 500hrs on my boat. The engine runs fine and starts perfectly, but I am worrying that maybe all the ballast is hurting the transmission.

1100 on my 2000 x-5. Runs great

Kind about the hours yeah it sucks about the hours that they lied and all but a lot of people really worry about hours on used boats but i have talked to many marine mechanics and 5 or 6 have told and confirmed to me that every 100 hours is equivalent to about 6000 miles on a car. So if you hafve 600 hrs which some people consider is a lot thats only about 36000 miles, nothing! sorry off topic but i though it was interesting

ok... since no one takes my sarcasm very well... this is my advice...

I am making the assumption that you want a boat that you can enjoy now and in the long run.

By immediately assuming that the dealer was fraudulent and proceeding with legal action, most likely you won't be a happy boat owner for quite some time.

Now if you approach the dealer... and yes... make a paper trail and diarize all contact and agreements made. Maybe the dealer will step up and make the necessary arrangements to have everything in working order and compensate you for the understatement of hours or it maybe worth some freebees... something you guys will have to work out. Maybe he will throw in extended warranty for you... Who knows.

If you proceed with legal action he is assuming that your assuming he was intentionally trying to screw you and he won;t help you at all and it will be a legal battle.

Mistakes happen, try and get a resolution so you can have a boat you are happy with.

But the way it seems on here is you are making a huge assumption that you got screwed. I am sure some due diligence on your part could have avoided this problem too. So I am assuming that you are not a good communicator and are unable to communicate your issues to the dealer ro find a resolution.

If that is the case... then you may look for a lawyer... Hope to see you on Judge Judy or Texas Justice or Judge Jow Brown... and for your inability to communicate... Dr. Phil!

Best of luck. Maybe you will be on the water this summer... and maybe you won't... it will be up to you!

Go get em tiger!

kyle i got your sarcasm. i thought it was funny no one else did.
hyrum- nothing ventured nothing gained. you have nothing to lose calling the dealer and seeing what he will do.

Kyle, did you bother to read that he is CONSULTING an attorney, not suing. He is getting his options and then proceeding. You automatically assume he is sueing. He mentioned it as a possibility, but stated he is there to see how the law applies here and what options he has, he may have none.

He already made one mistake by not demoing the boat, should he make another y not getting educated on what the next move should be?

he also stated this "I think it wise to talk to a lawyer about what options we do have and what we could possibly sue for and what are chances would be. Also it seems that none of you know anyone who has tried this before or know anything about what the laws actually are on misrepresentation and fraud. I have talked with someone who purchased a car that had the odometer changed and he got all his money back and about 1200 bucks in damages so best case scenario we may even come out ahead" from my point of view he realy has not given the dealer a chance to rectify the situation and he is seeing dollar signs??
The topic was "I got ripped off Need advice", many are giving it and saying call the dealer but maybe thats not what he wants to hear. Lawyers see dollar signs everytime someone walks in and it costs everyone, not just one person because they have to push their expenses off on the customers. A dealer will not stay in business long intentionally defrauding customers, it doesnt make them rich.

Well we have done some more research as have decided to proceed as follows: Our case would be that the dealer is liable for his claims about the facts such as the hours and mechanical condition. He may be able to get out of this by a waiver but I don't have record of signing any so I think me may be good there. We are going to send him a certified letter telling him of the situation and that we want our money back and would prefer to just conclude our business that way. In the letter we will give him a deadline like "If we don't hear from you in 5 days we will be turning this information over a local attorney (we have a name there in the letter), the better business bureau, and the California license division." Hopefully he will say well if I call this guy and take the boat back I can avoid legal hassles and marks on my record with the bbb and explaining myself to the licensing division. We are sending him pictures of the mour meter and the perfect pass hour meter that have different #'s as well as a signed statement from the local dealer here in Salt Lake City stating the hrs from the engine computer. Also sending pictures of the bilge pump, pp servo, and driveshaft bearing. We feel this is a good first move giving the dealer a chance to do the right thing and if he doesn't we can make good on our claim to turn it to an attorneys hands.

Also It’s not a Supra dealer just a used boat and car dealer in Burbank.

If a dealer is going to misrepresent a boat(I don't know any dealers that don't check out the inventory they take on trade)what chance does he have with the dealer working with him. Just a hunch here, but I would guess that he is not going to get anywhere with the dealer. As stated above, it is good to know what your options are before the initial contact so you don't get run around. I agree that lawyers are the only ones that get rich, but the principal of the thing would be enough for me to go after him.

HYRIM, Let us know what happens.

Hyrum, was the place on Victory blvd, between Western and Alameda ave? I've seen lots of boats there, but thought it was a storage lot. I live a few miles away, and always wondered.

Good luck getting things resolved. You deserve to return the boat, or get some money back. Hopefully it won't cost you much in any attorney fees (if you sue, maybe you can get those back?).

if it is under $5k you can take them to small claims...

if you did sign a waiver, it is more than likely NOT valid (state & federal law supercede written agreements)

Bottom line...the dealer is culpable and liable for fraudulent misrepresentation whether he knows the boat was or was not defficient.

Calling a lawyer and starting the process now is better than waiting as this will take longer than you think.

the peoples court...

"I agree that lawyers are the only ones that get rich, but the principal of the thing would be enough for me to go after him."

that seems awfully presumptuous. the dealer probably never took the boat out. saw that it was in aesthetically good condition. probably doesnt know a whole lot about perfect pass. so when the previous owner sold the boat to the dealer he just showed him the hours on the perfect pass. since there were such low hours the dealer probably had no reason to believe there were any issues with the boat. dunno maybe im an optimist. when you show the dealer the actual hours on the boat my guess he'd be willing to work with you.

It seems ODD to me that a dealer would have a customer sign a blank mileage disclosure -- what is up with that -- seems wrong to me.

Doesn't matter...dealer automatically takes responsibility regardless of what he did or didn't know!

the moral of this thread: "do not spend $38k without test driving first"
sue or don't sue, either way, all of the negligence lies with the customer for taking it upon himself to not do his homework...
how many of you would buy a $40k car without driving it first? that's right, none of you....

Get your cash back and buy this

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/8/230902.html?1117133654

I actually paid $50k for a car without driving, of course it was brand new, and I had already had a vette before and the c5 had gotten excellent reviews.

But, point taken, if it was used I would have most certainly tested it out or if it was a new regular car that I had no experience with I would have run it through its paces. Especially a boat, they are not produced in high enough #s to get real accurate reviews of problems. Plus if something does got wrong it really sucks to be sitting in the middle of the lake.

The first thing you should do, is talk to whoever sold it to you. You dont know if it was intentional, let the dealer make it right, if not talk to attorney.

Getting your money back is going to be MUCH harder then just having the dealer pay for the needed repairs. I would get the repairs done on his tab and keep the boat. 296 is hardly a lot of hours on the boat. The BBB only helps resolve complaints. They will be no help in legal matters and have no legal powers to help you get your money back. They simply just help you in your quest. Take into concideration the time you are going to spend hauling it back to them, driving home, and then the water time you will lose looking for a new boat. Or you may find out you bought an "as is" condition boat and signed no hour meter disclaimer therefore you are screwed.

(Message edited by colorider on May 26, 2005)

Hyrum - just read the post. I'm an attorney, and live in Utah as well. Email me if you have any more questions. Don't worry, free consultation for all WW patrons

I have been watching this to see where it was going, now I feel inclined to post my opinion, read on if you are interested, again this is just my personal opinion.

First off - Hyrum, sorry this has happened to you, what a bummer.

Next - Everybody, in situations like this the person with the most knowledge of the facts and laws usually wins so I think Hyrum is wise to learn the facts before showing his hand.

Going forward - I don't think I agree with Hyrum's approach going forward. Sometimes a gentleman's phone call can resolve these issues if people can keep thier cool. I would make one attempt to resolve this issue before I started sending certified letters. There is already a chance the dealer has been alerted to this thread since it's happening on the internet. If the gentleman's phone call does not produce results I would proceed with a letter (written by a lawyer), then small claims court. I think a $2-5k settlement in this would be fair to both parties if the dealer is not willing to take it back.

Let's say it needs $1k in repairs, I doubt that the difference in hours is more than a $4k value.

Hyrum, just one more thing. If the boat shows well then it most likely has not been used in salt. The california fresh waterways are much easier on boats then your high mineral lakes in Utah so the wear on this boat may not be too bad.

Best of luck,
Mikeski

I still think you should try to negotiate with the dealer. If I were the dealer and you threatened me, I would tell you to pound salt and go ahead and sue. Again, proving he knew it had more hours could be difficult if not impossible. I very highly doubt you could prevail for a full refund in Court. But, if you're that mad, go ahead and waste your time and money. Good luck.

Hyrum,
I agree with Delta Dave.
You dont know how the Dealer will react!!!

May be good may be bad.

This whole thing may be able to be settled between you and the dealer . You can always contact an Lawyer if it cant be worked out between you and the dealer.

I have been in a similar situation in the past and one important thing to keep in mind is the dealer may back out completely once you bring a lawyer into the mix. Then it will be lawyer on lawyer which takes a long time and is very expensive.
Good luck,
Chris

Hyrum,

Judging by your over-reaction I would guess that you already feel pretty bad about your hasty decision. Re-iterating the bad decision over and over probably just makes you feel worse. I would reccommend that you step back, take a deep breath, and look at everything again.
1) How much do you think you should have paid for the boat? If your not sure, look around for similar boats for sale. Knowing your legal rights is good, but there is alot of other information that you will want to know, that a lawyer may or may not know.
2)If you were selling this boat today, how much could you expect to get for it? (assuming that all of the repairs are done). It sounds like you are new into boating, and you may need to educate yourself on the market. This may also calm your fears of getting "ripped off".
3)Educate yourself on all of the options boats of that caliber have. ie. Perfect Pass, Ballast systems, Stereo systems, etc. etc. Some of these options can drastically affect the purchase price.
4)Know your legal rights.
All of these things will enable you to present a clear and balanced case to the Seller, and to a Lawyer if need be, and will make you at least appear that you know what your talking about, whether you do or not! (and I don't mean that sarcastically). I've had to learn alot just to know how to take care of one of these boats.
Being in Construction I have unfortunately had more experience than I want in litigation issues, but I can tell you that there is no substitute for due-diligence on your part to educate yourself on all of these issues. This whole experience is, in and of itself an education experience. Who knows, you may discover that problems and all you still got a pretty good deal, or not, but you need to know.
Lastly, armed with this knowledge that shouldn't take more than maybe one night on the internet to gather, talk to the Seller.
Whether or not a letter from a Lawyer will work will depend totally on the attitude and disposition of the Seller. Some people just are not intimidated easily, others will avoid a fight at all costs. Your course of action will be determined by alot of different factors that you can't know until you begin the conversations. I would always reccommend that you start nice, and only get mean if you have to.
Best wishes.

Well sorry for the delay in keeping the post up to date but I have been in Lake Powell with our fishing boat. We sent a letter that was not too confrontational but did have reference that we would take this further if we had no other options. We decided to send a letter so we could be perfectly clear on our intentions and such. The Salesperson that sold us the boat called the day he received the letter and said he would give us our money back if the boat had no damage due to towing it from Burbank to Utah and back. So I think we have a deal. I just need to figure out when I can drive down there and set up an exchange time. Hopefully there will be no more bumps in the road from this point on.

See, all it would have taken was a phone call.It's sad everyone has to run to laywers nowadays instead of just simply communicating with the person

What make model boat was this? What dealer? Please post so that someone else from this board doesn't buy the boat.

Thanks

Glad to see it looks to be working out for everyone without any legal action

"I purchased a 2003 Supra ssv from a dealer in Burbank CA for 38k"...first line of his post. Ok, so it doesn't have the dealer name, but if you're in Burbank, looking at a used '03 Supra SSV at a used boat dealer, chances are pretty good that you're looking at Hyrum's old boat.

Man did I just get a sweet deal. I just bought a 2003 Supra SSV with 300 hours and had some recent repairs to the drive shaft, Perfect Pass was upgraded, new steering cable, and new bilge pump. Dealer told me some that that some chump originally bought it from them without test driving etc for $38,000. Then they had to take it back and refund the money, so he said that I could buy it for $10,000. So I agreed to buy it! So ATTENTION HYRUM!!! Please return the boat. I want it for this weekend! I can't wait. I am so excited!

Hey everyone, when I get it... I will post it under a "MY NEW BOAT" topic... I will post some pictures of it with my wakeboarding friends and legal council... Hey... always have to have a lawyer near by... I may have to sue the dealer if the CD Skips or something major like that!

Have a great day riding everyone...

IMO... I would rather ride behind an 03 SSV that requires some repairs than riding behind a fishing boat... But that is just me!!!

hey now, id feel cheated too if my "NEW" boat had 300 hours on it

Yes for sure Hyrun should feel cheated. He paid $38k for 300hrs. I will get his boat for $10k as soon as he returns it! I hope that is soon!

Kyle you sound pretty confident your going to pick up a boat still worth about 40k for 10k, what gives??

Kyle, since you live in Canada maybe they will sell it to you for 8k if you drive it down for Hyrum.

Pssst.. I think he was being sarcastic

Hey 2Step. Nice Tige! Yeah maybe they will give me a discount for driving all the way down there too. Thanks for the tip! Since they are used dealership... maybe I can fly... and buy a truck from them too... and maybe they will give me the boat for free... who knows...I will take a lawyer with me!

I am driving the boat down Tommorow and delivering it to the dealer on Friday so I hope all goes well on the refund. I will keep you all posted.

yeah kyle you are so right man....... if i got a boat worth about 30K that was busted up and the dealer lied to me about it and i bought it for 38K i would probably just keep riding it and take the loss. i mean a few weeks of boarding is worth way more than the several thousands of dollars that i lost on the boat.
sorry for your problems hyrum and i hope everything goes well for you in Cal.

if you are looking at still getting a boat i think you should look into so other boats that you can get for new for under 50k. Tige, Nautique, Sanger..... and more... just look around i know for $38,000 you can get a much better boat than a 2003 Supra.