Articles
   
       
Pics/Video
       
Wake 101
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WakeWorld Home
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through May 21, 2003

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 6:31 PM Reply   
I am getting LED's green, red and white. I am planning to replace my bulbs which get very hot with an LED array inside both nav light fixtures.

My question, can I wire three 4.5 volt max LEDs in series and connect directly to my 12 volt system?

If so I plan connecting multiple sets of three in parallel inside the nav light housings form the array.
Old     (hyperlitenrd)      Join Date: Jan 2003       04-20-2003, 7:13 PM Reply   
No, you can not do that, found that one out the hard way... you would need to find A. a smaller power source(mabey from the switches on your dash)(check the power they put out) B. get some one to make you a resitor set to lowwer the power. that is all i can do, good luck!
Old     (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       04-20-2003, 7:19 PM Reply   
easy. look at voltage divider circuits in an electronics book. resistor in parallel and one in series. different values determine how much voltage the LED gets.
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 8:01 PM Reply   
Tim can you provide me a link or something. I thought I might have to go to radio shack to find a solution. Maybe they have all the parts I need.

Any other suggestions?
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 8:05 PM Reply   
Found one if anyone else is interested.

http://physics.mtsu.edu/~phys232/Lectures/L12-L16/L13/Volt_Divider/volt_divider.html

Funny thing I got a D in physics @ MTSU in '96. Guess I should have paid more attention.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       04-20-2003, 8:22 PM Reply   
Be careful with a voltage divider. You end up with a resistor path between power and ground. This can become a big power sink draining your system of power while generating heat.

I think the common solution for this is a DC to DC converter. This is done with an inverter and coil. I bet a 12V to 5V DCtoDC converter is common. Try searching the web.
Old     (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       04-20-2003, 8:28 PM Reply   
what about using a simple op amp circuit to do this, say with something common like a 741?
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 8:57 PM Reply   
Tim would R1 @ 60kohms and R2 @ 20kohms (I'm guessing about the Kohms part) with input of 12 volts would drop the output to 4 volts for the LEDs from points B and C in the circuit. I'm guessing point A is positive and point D is negative or ground.

Here's my next question what keeps the resistors from heating up and defeating the whole purpose of using the LEDs. It looks like the two resistors in series, according to the diagram, would complete a circuit from positve to ground causing them to heat up.

I understand the concept but I think I'm still missing something. Can you verify this and clear up my last question.
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 9:06 PM Reply   
Ok my concerns are correct. Tim what the heck is an op amp circuit, 741? I'm searching as we type.
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 9:38 PM Reply   
Ok what about this:
http://www.infineon.com/cmc_upload/documents/029/827/TLE6389G_V1.7_1.pdf

the adjustable one.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       04-20-2003, 9:40 PM Reply   
With an op amp you can create a voltage regulator or with a big transistor you can build a voltage follower. However, this is pretty complex stuff.

I recommend finding a off the shelf dc-to-dc converter solution. It is basically a small power supply.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       04-20-2003, 9:47 PM Reply   
This company sells some low current solutions.

http://powerstream.com/DC6.htm

What is the power requirement for the LEDs?
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 9:58 PM Reply   
The max voltage is 4.4volts. I plan on using a fixed 12 volt supply for my nav lights and a variable voltage from the dimmer switch in my car for some UV leds used in an instrument cluster.

I'll check the link. Thanks.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       04-20-2003, 10:06 PM Reply   
Bruce, check this site out, it has many LEDs and some explanation of using them with a simply in-series resistor.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_info.htm
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 10:39 PM Reply   
Dane found these also unsure about the variable voltage part in the automobile to vary the intensity.
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM1086.html#Application%20Notes
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 10:43 PM Reply   
Looks like that guy got the simplest solution.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       04-20-2003, 10:47 PM Reply   
Bruce, you may want to checkout going to Wallmart or Kragens and look into hacking apart things that they have there for powering lights or cell phones.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       04-20-2003, 10:51 PM Reply   
It would be cool if either of these would work for you.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/1157.htm

http://www.superbrightleds.com/BA9S6_specs.htm
Old    sprucie            04-20-2003, 11:34 PM Reply   
If only my projects would be that easy. My forward nav light uses the festoon type bulb but it much brighter then the 4 led festoon and emits light in a 180 deg. pattern as well as producing alot of heat.

My main reason for replacing the incandescent bulbs with LED is that I burned the piss out of the iside of my arm on top of the chrome light fixture while sitting in the front of my boat.

My rear nav light looks like a flying saucer stuck on a chrome pole. Very flat lense type with a light place in the middle. Kind of makes a slice of light. I have seen the direct LED replacement for it but they want $89.

After looking at the superbrightled site they seem to have the simplest solution. I'm going to call them in the AM to get the full explanation to their resistor in series solution.

Thanks for the help.
Bruce
Old     (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       04-21-2003, 1:20 PM Reply   
Okay, here is the scoop:

forget the op amp circuit, way too complicated and what was described wouldn't do what you want anyway. Same with the DC-DC converter.

The basic problem is that LEDs need a certain amount of current. The LEDs are very non linear with regards to the voltage, you just can't predict what the voltage will be to get the desired current. The "rated maximum voltage" is just an indication of how high the voltage might have to go to in order to get the desired current.

The real problem is that at a different temperature, or just a different LED, might required a substantially lower voltage to get the same current. If you give it too much voltage you will burn out the LEDs.

What you really want is a circuit that regulates the current, not the voltage. Such a circuit will require a voltage drop in order to function, so you will need a voltage source at least a volt or two higher than the LED maximum voltage.

So, to answer your first question, NO, three 4.5 volt LEDs wired in series will probably produce no light at 12 volts. They *might* work fine when the engine was running and the alternator was providing ~13.5 volts. But then, they might burn out when the engine was turning fast and the voltage increased to 14.2 volts.

The easisst circuit for an LED is to have a series load resistor. You could hook two LEDs in series, which would have a combined maximum voltage of 9 volts. Your boat's electrical system can go as high as 14.2 volts (max charge voltage) so you need to protect the LEDs from this voltage. The required voltage drop is 14.2 - 9 = 5.2 volts.

Now you need to know the current that the LEDs will need. A rough guess would be around 25 milliamps (0.025 amps) but check the specifications for the LEDs. The basic equation for electrical work is known as Ohms Law, and goes E=IR
Where E is the voltage
I is the current (in amps)
R is the resitance (in ohms)

Back to your circuit: Forget the battery voltage we need the "drop" voltage, which is 5.2 volts. Given the desired current (let's call it 25 milliamps) we can solve for R

E=IR
5.2 = 0.025R
R = 5.2/0.025
R= 208 ohms.
A 208 ohm resistor will be hard to find, so use the next size larger (or you could use the next size smaller if you wanted to drive it a bit hard).

When you buy the resistor you will need to know the power rating (physical size). The power the resistor will see is the voltage times the current, or 5.2 * 0.025 = 0.13 watts. Use a 1/4 watt resistor.

You will need to duplicate this cicuit as many times as necessary to get the necessary brightness. DO NOT attempt to hook additional diode pairs to the same resistor.

A disavantge of this is that as the voltage drops (engine slows down or shuts off) the LED brightness will drop considerably.

There are other options that require a bit more knowledge of electronics. The ideal approach is to use a current regulator. Similar to a voltage regulator, this circuit attempts to hold a specific current, regardless of the voltage. It will end up with the same voltage drops so the efficiency will be the same, but the LED brightness will remain constant. A "linear" current regulator can be built using a voltage regulator and a couple of resistors, just hooked up a little differently.

An ideal circuit would use "switching" technology to create the current regulation. The switcher would increase the efficiency and reduce unwanted heat.


Or, you can just buy this and be done with it:
http://www.lopolight.dk/


Old    sprucie            04-22-2003, 12:18 PM Reply   
Rod waht type of switching technology are you talking about? I like the LOPO light idea but I am trying to stay with the OEM equipment that I change to LED and no offense to anyone but it kind of looks like a lighted hockey puck.
Old    sprucie            04-22-2003, 12:25 PM Reply   
Secondly I have two different application problems. The first is the constant intensity (boat) and variable intensity (auto). I think the switching ($?) will work for marine app. but it sounds like the resistor setup should be used for my auto application trying to get variable intensity from UV LEDs.

Plz keep the info coming, I'll get to the bottom of this yet!
Old     (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       04-22-2003, 12:58 PM Reply   
Bruce:

In power supply terminology there are two basic types of regulation: Linear and switching.

A linear regulator uses a transistor that has its based current controlled so that it drops the necessary voltage across the Collector/emitter junction. This is very simple, but it results in the transistor getting hot.

A "switching" supply uses an inductor and/or transformer driven by a swtiching transistor. The transistor is either ON or OFF, and switches between these states very quickly. The inductor smooths out the current pulses so that the load sees a reasonably stable voltage. Because the transistor is either on or off, and not in its linear range, the transistor dissipates very little heat and the efficiency is much higher.

Switching supplies are the normal type of supply used in just about everything, including PCs. They take a little bit more to design, but they are well worth the effort in high power (more that a few watts) or where efficiency is important (battery operation).

As for the appearance of the lamp:
LEDs are very directional in their light output. You can buy a LED module that replaces the standard bayonet bulb, but all the light shines directly away from the base. This works great on stop/tail lamps, but on your nav light it would illuminate the top of the housing instead of shining out where someone could see it.

Old    sprucie            04-22-2003, 1:38 PM Reply   
Rod thanks for the quick reply. Can I find a schematic somewhere to build a swithing power supply which I could wire in at the switch and then send the required power to the LEDs using existing wiring the sends the normal 12 volts to the existing incandescent bulbs.

Secondly I plan on building an array to solve the diectional problem similar to the ones being certified in aircraft though not near as complex.

Thanks, In advance.
Bruce



(Message edited by sprucie on April 22, 2003)
Old    sprucie            04-22-2003, 3:29 PM Reply   
Guess what, went to Radio shack and they had a 12 volt to 4.5 volt plug in converter, $12.99. Looks like it will handle the voltage variation of engine on versus off and maintain a constant voltage. It's good for 1000ma load. That should be good for 50 to 100 LEDs. Thanks for the info guys.
Old     (aneal000)      Join Date: Feb 2002       04-23-2003, 7:15 AM Reply   
Just a couple of thoughts:

1) As kinda mentioned above LED's are somewhat limited in their viewing angle. You can find LED's that have larger/wider viewing angles but you sacrifice brightness. LED's that are "superbright" have very limited viewing angles. It is a tradeoff. So in purchasing LED's for this application that is somehting to consider.

I have an electrical background and have put together multiple LED lights for a buddy of mine that built custom Harley's. The main point that was finally touched upon is the power required by the LED's and limiting the current to achieve the desired power. Also I would suggest running the LED's below their rated power. Good design practice is to not run at rated power. Give yourself some margine.

One other thought, I have seen replacment LED bulbs at AutoZone/Wal-Mart. They have taken all of the work out of it by providing the most common bulb shapes built using LED's. You just hook these babies up to 12V and go. Might be easier than messing with the resister network.

Also how are you planning on doing the rear light in white?

One more link, I have personally used these LiteOn, High Brightness LED's with great success, just thougth I would share.
http://www.liteon.com/prod/getComponentIntro.do?cid=3_1_2&xml_id=4_3&menu_id= 4_3_2
Old     (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       04-23-2003, 6:15 PM Reply   
Bruce:

As I stated above, do NOT attempt to run the LEDs off of a voltage regulated supply. The LEDs need to have the current regulated by some means.

A switching regulator is beyond the scope of a discussion I could do here. I recommend the resistor approach. It is simple and fairly fool proof.
Old    sprucie            04-23-2003, 7:58 PM Reply   
Rod this is the converter I bought. I took apart the Led courtesy lights apart in my boat. They have a 100 ohm resistor in series on the positive side.

If I go the resistor route I will have 10 resistors in side the nav light with the 30 leds. Can I linmit the current with one resistor at the switch. I plan on dropping the voltage to 4.5 using the converter then running the 4.5 volts to the switch to distribute the electricity to both nav lights or just the anchor light.

I'll get this figured out yet.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CT LG%5F004%5F018%5F000%5F000&product%5Fid=273%2D1857

(Message edited by sprucie on April 23, 2003)
Old     (bob)      Join Date: Feb 2001       04-24-2003, 2:43 AM Reply   
this is straight from the superbrightled site:
You can connect up to 4 red, orange, or yellow leds in series with each other and one resistor to power with 12 volts. The value of the current resistor must be lowered, depending on how many leds are in series. A maximum of 3 of the other colors can be in series across 12 volts, because of their higher forward voltage requirement.
Old    bigd            04-24-2003, 7:41 AM Reply   
I saw a bunch of LED powered nav lights in the West Marine catalog at home but can't find them on the web. As I recall they were pretty pricey - around $100.00.
Old    sprucie            04-24-2003, 5:43 PM Reply   
I'll probably have $100 in time invested in the project never mind the parts. I'm just trying to see if I can accomplish this myself.

Keep the info coming.
Old    bigd            04-24-2003, 6:55 PM Reply   
I wish the web site had more info but it doesn't...
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearch?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&keyword=2 674901&x=9&y=6

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearch?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&keyword=3 732922&x=9&y=4

The parts are down the page a bit. Both units are listed as being manufactured by Perko, but there is no mention of any LED lights on the (very lame and pathetic) Perko web site.

I wish I could help more...
Old    sprucie            04-24-2003, 10:02 PM Reply   
Thanks, Bob.

Reply
Share 


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:21 AM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2019 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us