are you "Middle Class" feeling the boating pinch?

Just curious, having talked with a few friends it does seem that we are/have been forced out of the middle class or should I say going extinct.
Boating wise with the price's still going up, what are you doing to enjoy our sport. (just sharing ideas, this is not a flaming contest)

Do you consider yourself middle class, if so does your boat cost more than you make a year?

Us Sanger V215 (2005) 44k out the door, yearly income now 33k was 51k (and home owners)when bought..

We get gas on base which is only about 3-5 cents cheaper but it adds up over the year, we stay away from HOT New season gear. (Helps that I am deployed alot).

Everybody pitches in!! Tried to save by recylcing but in Wa you have to pay to recycle?

We ebay old stuff we don't use, etc.

Most of all we when we now go its not for just a few runs but an all day event.

Ghostrider. The boats in this sport are way too expensive. And your point is well taken, even if someone gave you a boat the expense is just beginning.

I agree whole-heartedly. Boats are getting way to frickin expensive. Remember when a top-of-the-line wake boat would run 50k at the very most? Now, seeing prices of 80k is not uncommon. But, I guess that's supply and demand for you. Sucks for middle class people like us.

Boat and Boating = $$$$. I think a lot of people are hurting and It probably won't get any better soon.

Luckily some of the best wakeboard boats are the ones that are not the 80k models (ie 205/x2/x1/old xstar, SAN 210 pre 07, sanger 210, old vlx). So you probably can't get one new for loaded for under 50k, but you can definately find one 3-4 years old with few hours in the mid-30s.

Wakeboard boating is recreational, a choice, maybe a life style, and an expensive past time. There’s always someone with a bigger better, house, car, boat, whatever. If boat brand A is the best brand and model Z is the best boat model is that something that everyone should be able to afford, unfortunately not.

If my sport was skate boarding, the best equipment would be within easy reach, I could then afford the best. I really wanted to move up to a different boat this year and came close to pulling the trigger. I didn’t because I wanted to make sure the important things in life were taken care of first. Maybe I’ll step up in ’07, maybe in ‘08.

Typical wakeboard boats have quite a few more features than an entry level 17.5 Bayliner. Features like V-8 motors, ballast systems, towers, bimini tops, stereos, wake plates, wedges, the list goes on. Those features do add to the cost.

I agree, boats prices are getting absurd. The funniest thing is most people dont hardly even use those boats, their too busy working to pay em off, lol.

I would rather own a 25k boat and put 200hrs a year on it, than a 50K boat with only 50hrs a year on it!

I do agree, wakeboarding, boating, etc. is a choice, hobby, life style etc.

Matt, I agree with the time on the boat is more important than the boat itself. (I could care less if such and such has 80k boat, the question should be more about enjoying the time on the water)

I would not give up the memories I have to have a little more money in the bank. We just do dine out as often (rarely now), we enjoy family/friends time more on the boat than a night out at dinner.

Here are my thoughts, it's all about the bling. I was looking at a 07 Mastercraft X-1 (still one of the best wakes IMO) at the Portland boat show, no Bling $41,000.

Every manufacturer makes a somewhat affordable boat(under 50k). But, if you do your homework you can have a pretty sweet used ride with a top notch wake for around 25k, maybe less. It might be 5 to 10 years old but most people baby their boats so its not like buying a car that old.

A few things we do to keep costs down in this expensive sport/addiction are...

1. I have a 9 year old boat that throws a great wake. It just takes a little more work to get it there.

2. I always ride 1 or 2 year old equiptment. You can get it on ebay for less than half the price. And usually new.

3. I maintain and store my own boat. Oil changes and general maintinence is not that hard if you have/make the time. I also sacrifice getting both cars in the garage so I can keep the boat on the other side.

4. Everyone who rides with me regularly, chips in for gas.

5. I drive an older truck (2000 silverado). I just can't justify a big truck payment when I spend alot of extra money on wakeboarding.

Bottom line, yeah, the new boats are waaaaay too spendy, but if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to get it. Maybe not going out and dropping an entire years income on a weekend play toy, but a little elbow grease and a 10 year old boat......you can have just as much fun. OR get your buddy to pay $80k for a sweet ride, and just help pay for the gas and do some maintainance on it.

Buying a brand new boat in my oppinion is just a bad investment unless you have money to burn. Like anything else, if you buy 2-4 years old the boat is usually going to still be in good shape with maybe 100 hours maybe 200 which is nothing and you get the 60,000 boat for 44900 or whatever. I used to be a jet ski guy and for about 5 years in a row I would purchase 2 jetskis usually around 2-4 years old with barley any hours and I would find people who bought them on a whim and maybe put 30-40 hours on them and they sat in the garage ever since. I would low ball them and you do that to 5 people and 1 usually said fine...I would ride them all summer and turn around and sell them and I always made money accept for one summer when I had a problem with one and spent 250 bucks to have the engine fixed. I did sell it for what I bought it for though after 3 months of riding. Just my 2 cents

It's unreal how many people want to be cool, buy a 60-80k wakebaording boat and then want to sell it with 8-30 hours on it..

What was the point of buying? Also before you buy you should know if you can afford it or not!

Boats and investment in the same sentence, that is just funny. If I wanted to work all my life and invest, fine, but hobbies make work worthwhile, and when considering tool for the hobby, investing does not enter into the conversation.

I still have an I/O and I'm not a good enough wakeboarder to need anything else. I have a trick list that I have to get through before we'll even consider an upgrade as a family. We also have to pay off the Jeep first. Even when we do all of this to get a wakeboat, we'll probably still buy substantially used (10 years or so). The good news is that by that time there will be some excellent wake-configured boats out there to be had.

I spent $4500 on my boat and so far other associated costs have been reasonable, especially since I do my own maintenance/small repairs. I don't buy new equipment unless it's exceptionally cheap. I've used this message board and that other wakeboarding site's board to find used equipment deals.

Keeping up with the Jonses as far as any boating (not just wakeboarding) is concerned is not a middle class activity but it never was. If you want to wakeboard, you don't need a $50K boat, $50K tow rig and $1K worth of equipment. You just need a board, a boat, and some transportation to your nearest suitable body of water. If you want to keep up with the Jonses on something and are middle class, pick something smaller like lawnmowers or televisions. Those will only set you back a couple grand.

IMHO "keepin up with the joneses" does not apply if you are a ripper. Get your time on the water and it wont matter what kind of boat you have. As nice as it would be to have a loaded brand new boat, I give a lot more respect to rippers than rich people.

You just need a buddy with a nice boat

I am middle class and I am keeping the expenses as low as possible. 82 direct drive boat and 92 truck. Both run great and do everything that you need a truck and boat to. I work 35-40 hours a week. I would NOT work 50-60 to be able to have a new boat. My time on the water is much more valuable than keeping up with the Joneses.

The modern day Joneses are a banks and credit card companies best friend.

AMEN brother!!

The #1 reason why wakeboarding is not very popular in the grand scheme of sports: initial investment.

I like what Greg said....

Do you guys think after reading all the comments that if someone were to go out buy an old 2001 or 205v make sure the engine was strong put a large ballast system in and perfect pass tower etc So the boat has all the essentials for wakeboarding.The vinyl would be thrashed and it wouldn't be the prettiest boat but be extremely functional.

Huge fun wake perfect pass, tower so that you could rent it out to people enough to make money.

Is their a market for a boat that would look really old and beat up but if it produced the right wake that people would rent it consistently.

I live in Oregon close to the mountain and if people will shell out 50-60 dollars to snowboard for the day would they feel the same way about wake boarding granted the river I live is literally always flat so windy days are not an issue.

(Message edited by shoulin on January 29, 2007)

I like to consider myself "upper lower class." I wear a wife beater and my wallet is attached to me via a chain. I waited until I paid off my 99 burb to buy my boat. I just transfered the payment to the boat. I was lucky to get it in 05 when you could get one for 45K. There is no way I could spend 80K on a boat. Even if I financed it for 15 years. It gets expensive. I had a $1000.00 gas bill in the summer. That was boat + RV when we went camping.
Wadd$

The other side of the arguement is that if everything were cheap, everyone would be doing it. Imagine all those guys who go out and buy PWCs without any experience at all and then just screw up right and left on every navigable body of water there is. Now imagine that wakeboard boats & gear are now half the price. Instead of PWCs, all these guys are now on 23' wakeboard boats throwing tsunami size wakes...

Sure it would be cool to get a break on the $$,$$$.$$s, but I can live with it for keeping the sport to people who really want it (if you really want it, you will find a way to make it happen).

The half the reason wakeboard boats are so expensive are all the options... perfect passs, ballast system, swivel racks, stereo systems, lights, special order colors, heaters, showers, mirror mounts, cargo bimini... I'm sure there are more. Everyone thinks they need it all, and the way it looks most people are buying boats with it all.

I am not "upper class" and just figure ways to make it work like others have said above. Bought a new 2001 Supra in 2002, with tower, covers, bimini, and heater. Slowly I have added other stuff.

Does anyone else wonder, with all the talk of energy conservation, when boaters will be viewed as eco-terrorists? I wonder how long it will be until people say wow, thats got twin screws. What an ••••••••

isn't there already a wakeboard boat with twin screws?

Anyone ever heard of a "hybrid" motor for a wakeboard boat?

Re-read the post. I was commenting on how it will be looked down upon to have large gas sucking engines.

I have never had a tree-hugger in my boat complain. Now the ones standing on shore might have issues, but I cant hear them because of the engine and stereo...

This is what I'm saying. I think I heard of one already. And even here I think it was looked upon as "too much" .... cool, but too much.

I just wonder if the industry will begin to go the way of cars with the electric hybrid approach. I think some of the car engines are starting to put out some decent horsepower. Certainly not 300+ yet, but.....

middle class is being wiped out slowly but surely in every aspects of life...........thanks to our republicans imo.....not trying to start a debate fellas!

Joel, the Lexus GS hybrid puts out a combined 340 hp.

ryan, that right there is some funny shiaaat. Now understand I am a libertarian. Who wants to raise taxes? Who wants a universal health care? Who promotes class warfare? Now you can figure it out or keep being duped.

"Boats and investment in the same sentence, that is just funny."

If you're a resorcefull person with some basic mechanical ability, you can do alot. I've made money on every boat I've owned and sold so far. Maybe my labor wasn't recovered, but I consider that a trade-off for the use of the boat for a couple seasons. The advantage of new wakeboat prices going through the roof is that older entry-level boats are holding even better re-sale value.

Taxes and health are killing more than my boat. If I would have escrowed my taxes the monthly payment would have been more than my first mortgage monthly payment.

after buying a brand new boat, and having half of it paid for in 6 months and knowing that i will have the boat paid off within a year or 2 tops, i would tell any of you looking to buy a boat to go in that 5-10 year range. I talked myself into buying based on 2-5 year old boats were only 5-10000 less, and i wouldnt' get as good of a finance rate or as long of a term. I looked over the finance papers, and if i let the loan go over the first 5 years, over 40000 in interest alone. I about puked up a nut. needless to say getting it paid off is a top priority and been succesful so far, but the thought is always in my mind and it ain't very relaxing.

I would consider myself to be middle to upper middle class. We were just considering a new boat at the boat show, and here's what we came up with.

07 VLX silver: 90K MSRP, 72K in reality.
07 X-star: 90K MSRP, 72K in reality.

We currently own an 02 VLX, 400 hours, showroom condition. My thought process is this, I'm 34, had one knee surgery, am not too far from another. I figure I can ride at my current level for a couple more years. I have decided that if I can't ride at the level I'm at, I'm done wakeboarding. My progression has slowed because of my age and body condition, not because my boat is 5 years old. My boat has much more potential than I do, and it's not holding me back from learning new things. It still throws one of the best wakes in the buisiness, so I don't see the need for a new boat, other than in some people's eyes it would make me cool. Well, I don't need affirmation from other people. The only way I will ever buy a new wakeboard boat is if something happens to mine, or if my daughter has some serious prowess.

We figured we can get into a 40+ foot express cruiser next, keep our current wakeboard boat, and have two boats. We live near a navigable body of water, so we could keep the cruiser moored there, and keep the current boat on the lift at home.

I am at the point in my life, where I don't want to owe anyone money for anything. Freedom is what I'm after, not the next "cool" wakeboard boat.

I would keep the 02 and get the cruiser...

I want to see a boat manufacturer put a hybrid in a boat and make it cheap!

This price increase trend is confusing to me. These boats do not have stearn drives or tilt and trim motors, yet cost thousands more than boats that do. I was told the running gear on a ski boat cost less to replace. Compared to the car market, we don't have traction control, ABS brake systems, complicated electronics, power everything, and most luxury cars cost thousands less. Granted they spit out more cars to lower the production costs but why so much? Outside of the hull and interior, everything els seems to be bought from a vendor and installed.

I like things that cost a lot of money. What used to seem like a lot of money, seems like a sweet deal compared to todays prices.


I drive an $800 van so I can afford my Enzo. I also have a little Yamaha Zuma scooter to ride to work, so all my gas money goes in the boat!

^^^^^^

I think the only thing that is making these boats more expensive is demand.

Adding the V-drive transition kind of equalizes the whole outdirve issue. Why would a d-drive cost more than an outdrive, don’t know.

Inboard boat dealers and manufacturers will call out quality of build, attention to details, fit and finish, in a kings new cloths argument to justify costs.

I accept that a Bayliner 17.5 with a 50 hp Force motor is going to cost a lot less ($10K) than an X-Star ($80K). The Bayliner is a price point boat for the cost conscious buyer not for a hardcore wakeboarder.

Component level cost differences in this absurd example inlcude length of boat, the degree of hand laid glass, V-8 motor, ballast system, tower, racks, swim platform and so on.

I have no idea if Bayliner uses backing plates, how neatly control cables and wiring are routed, and how willing they are to let a so-so component through quality. The folks at Mastercraft would probably be offended by my comparison, though I’m sure they do it all the time.

New high-end boats are for doctors, lawyers, and Indian chiefs. There are a few hardcore folks that will put everything in to a top end boat because it’s worth it to them. Can you get a good wakeboard boat at a reasonable price (reasonable is a relative term), yes you can but you’ll have to work at it, buy slightly used, buy really used and fix up, whatever. There are some brands for the masses, and most brands have an ~$40K entry boat.

Sanger.... enough said. They have fully loaded wakeboats for well under $50k if you buy right. I still think boats are a rip-off for what you get, but the Sangers are (IMO) the perfect boat for the money.

Don't worry Ryan. The Democrats have stepped in and are raising the minimum wage. To bad they don't want to give the small business owner a tax break, when he will have to start paying his employees almost double what he is now. Killing profits and driving him into bankruptcy. That should really close the gap!

- I'm middle class - on the rise I suppose. To answer the original question, no I'm not feeling the pinch because I paid cash for my boat and bought well within my means. I would love to have a $60k ski boat. But won't do it because I need breathing room in my finances for a rainy day or other variables like increasing gas prices. Sure a X214 or VTX would be great but the marginal benefit just ain't there - especially behind the boat where it counts.

- Boat Prices - I'm surprised no one has delved into the impact financing legal changes have allowed boat prices to skyrocket. Wake boats didn't just shoot up in price for no reason all of the sudden. It's not supply and demand of boats, it's S&D of financial products. As soon as boats could be financed for 15 & 30 years it allows sale prices to rise since Joe Schmoe who could afford $XXX/mo payment on said $45k boat, maintains the same monthly dues to the bank and can get the Grand Poobaahh $80k Xstar/VLX etc...

I don't know why anyone in the middle class would complain, this just means better boats for us down the road when 'ol Joe is screwed upsidedown as he goes BK.

CIE Evan, Sanger . Cheaper price, better built.

Anyways, here is a link to a short video that we should all watch.

http://216.70.117.172/me_english.htm

I'm not preaching or anything. Just a little reminder to all, including myself.

Hey, a new boat is not for everyone, thats for sure. Keep this in mind though, if some of us did not bite the bullet and buy the new boat, eventually there would be no 10 year old boats for everyone else to get a good deal on. Add to this that the boat manufacturers would suffer and there would be fewer companies, leading to fewer dealers which would lead to more demand with less competition: hence even higher prices. Just buy what you can afford, have fun, and let the free market set the prices.

lol........paul your a funny guy!

Intersting Charlie, that is well done

don't want to comment on middle class
I do want to comment on that pic on kenny(ghostridder) profile
That is SICK!!!!!!!
I wouldn't care what I made if I could do that all day.

Here's what I don't get- Every year I go to the boat show and every year I see a lot of really nice looking boats. They also go UP in price by almost 3-5K a year MINIMUM even if nothing has fundamentally changed in the boat. Look, I realize inflation has something to do with it, but you don't see these kinds of increases with cars or anything else for that matter. From what the business mags and finance people tell me, I am in the top 2% income bracket in the country and there's no way I would pay the kind of money that people are paying for new boats today. I got my Tige in 2001 (new) for almost 1/2 what the new 21VE goes for- that's not right. Sooner or later there's got to be an end to this or you're going to see companies like Moomba, Sanger and others step in and grab huge share from MC, BU, CC and others.. my .02

I am with Jon. Inflation isn't driving prices up, demand is. Car prices have not risen nearly as much as boat prices have. The boat manufacturers believe they have wakeboarders by the nuts. They are like a girl taking advantage of a guy that is hopelessly in love and whipped. People love this sport and will spend ungodly amounts of money to enjoy it. The manufacturers know this. They got a clear signal of this when wakeboarders didn't flinch at the higher gas prices we have seen.

The only thing that can save the ridiculous price increases is competition from new entrants into the market increasing supply and causing competition on price. GO EPIC!!!! GO WAKECRAFT!!!!!

The main reason that boats are so much because of the 15 to 20 year loans. If banks would do 15 year loans for cars they would go up also.Like 5 years ago they didnt have 8 year loans for cars. Now they do. I remember if I borrowed more than 50 grand Bank of America would do that loan. Its not demand either. It all has to do with the 15-20 year loans and these boat com know that. If you can afford a 400-600 a month payment,do it. Look at all these suvs I bet these people are putting out between 500-800 a month.

Automotive economy of scale is totally different from boat the manufacture situation. Boat manufacturers do leverage some automotive technology, but much of the technology is specific to marine application.

There are some amazing cars that I admire but will never own and most likely never even touch. I don’t wine about not owning a Jag but man the XK8 is a beautiful looking machine.

It seems that a lot of wakeboats cater to creature comforts. I few years ago when I brought my new boat to an annual family reunion everyone was astounded with all of the features on the new boat. There was a ballast system, V-8 engine, tower, three tow rope points, a stereo, CD-Changer, woofer, huge amps, heater with snorkels, built in ice chest, board racks and so on. Now I’m thinking that it would be nice to have hot water on the transom. I’ve had a good look at the CC 220, that’s a busy interior, stadium seating, A huge tower, swivel board racks, and trash cans, that’s not going to be a cheap boat to build.

Neither inflation nor demand is driving up prices, it’s all the extra stuff, though I could never spend $80K for a X.

I do think that Skier’s Choice has a wicked smart marketing approach with Moomba and Supra. Win owner loyalty with a Moomba and catch the trade up business with a Supra. I don’t think there’s a Sanger dealership within two or three states but I hear good things.

edward, there is a Sanger dealer in MI about 3.75 hrs away from you. I don't know if there is one closer though.

Just letting you know.

I would love a 50k wake machine but I elected to go for a 6k 86 Supra that is the perfect ride. With a little TLC (started but not finished) I will run this boat for a long time or until I can afford a newer boat. My boat had a fresh 454 with maybe 50 hrs on it. I am going into my 2nd full season and it runs like a top. I added a pylon I got on ebay for $120 b/c cant afford a tower. I am putting new carpet in and dressing the dash up for next season. I have big plans but budget allows to do a little at a time.

I don't drive 140 miles to and from the "nicer" lake. I opt to go to the one 3 miles away. My equipment list is normally last years model. I found that my boat and SUV will run on regular unleaded, as well.

Kroger is $1.87/ gal right now. Hope it lasts into spring...

When banks start getting higher percentages of repo's in their boat loan portfolios, then they will start pulling back the extended terms on their loans. As rates go up, their spread on what the money costs them and what they can sell it out will get thinner as well, so the long terms wont be as attractive to the lender due to time value of money. When the 20 year boat loans are not in favor with the lenders any longer, more will be unable to afford the $80K boat. Eventually prices will stabilize or come down, but only if rates keep climbing and/or there are more repos.

Or if everyone quit buying them, prices might come down as well...But I dont see that happening

actually Byrd, as loan rates increase, our margins get wider. Its when they come down that banks feel the pinch.

This is a great topic, like everything else prices are going up and wages are staying the same at best. I think we are going to see a huge fall in prices on everything in the next four years. IMO we are at the peak of our economy and it's going to start going backwards. Like I said when prices go up and wages go down who is going to be able to buy. With all the outsourcing going on we are going to hit some rough times. Corporate America is to greedy.

I respectfully agree(partially) and disagree(mostly). Only if your cost of funds stays the same will your margins get wider in a rate increasing environment. You are not taking into account the cost of the funds. Either you buy it from the Feds, or you buy it from your customers. And to keep your borrowing ability you also have to keep a certain percentage in deposits which costs you money. When Fed fund rates climb, you can not keep the same margins like you did when you were buying it at 1.5% because when money gets too expensive for the consumer, they decide to go without. That 20 year boat loan looks attractive at 6.5%, but it doesnt look so good at 9.5% Banks try to keep their margins the same in all environments, but that is usually not the case. Loan rates go up because the cost of the money being lent out goes up, not the other way around...With rates going up, you will see that the major banks will make less money next year than they have this past year due to higher cost of funds and customers leaving the market. The part that I agree with is in the rate turns, that is when the make and loose more profit.

Intelligent wakeboarders???
You guys are going to ruin the stereotypes!!!

This is an interesting discussion. As you read the posts on this site, we are all demanding more out of our boat manufacturers from form, power, reliability and function. I believe that part of the price increase stems from the consumers, demanding more and more options. Secondly, if you look over the last 10 years, the average income has gone up but not at the same rate as the pricing of luxury items. Just 10 years ago $100,000 in annual income would allow you to own a home, a boat and a variety of cars, motorcycles and accessories. That is simply no longer the case (varies by geography). As inflation rises, taxes continue to increase and the market expectations for luxury products rise - the gap will continue to grow. The rich are getting richer and poor are getting poorer and the gap is widening every year.

I receive the most enjoyment from boating, but it is also my most expensive hobby. I battle with upgrading my boat every single day. I agree with a lot of the comments in this post, but I honestly believe one of the biggest reasons for the rise in the cost of new boats is as simple as supply/demand. When people have the opportunity to finance an $80,000 boat over a 30 year period who can't afford to pay cash, it looks pretty attractive especially when they expect to only have the boat for 3-5 years. Manufacters and Financial institutions have more market data than any of us could imagine and when the market is willing to pay (debt or cash) they will opt for the higher price model because Wall Street and investors expect higher revenue which equals higher margin/profit. People in general do not hesitate to take on debt, that is why a lot of people live paycheck to paycheck. I know people who have an $80,000+ boat that do not have a dime in the bank, rent their apartment and make a car payment. Part of it is priorities and some of it is the market dynamics.

(Message edited by phatboypimp on January 31, 2007)

As long as banks lend money people will buy stuff.Some have toos cars, house ect....Depends on what your recreation is ,people will spend it if they like it or love it enough.When gas went to 3.00 plus did anybody stay home on a pretty weekend....nooooooo----we did what we had to do and enjoyed our summer.3-4 days a week i pumped gas into a boat...people said i was crazy...maybe ,but me and my buddies will do it again if its 5.00 gal. As long as me and the wife are working and have our health. We will be on the water.For 12yrs. i have run the piss out of a 80 model mastercraft stars and stipes - love the boat and have had great service and great memories BUT its time for a upgrade- 06 centurion avalanch c-4 <demo> We are not getting any younger and you dont know what tomorrow brings.RIDE ON AND RIDE HARD !!

Thats the best way to some it up. Buy if you can. Sell if you have to.

Jason, you hit the nail on the head. It is all about priorities. Finance companies have convinced the American Public that if they can afford the monthly payment, then they deserve to have it. The problem I see is that a lot of people are renting a lifestyle they can not afford. Not picking on Kenny, but the questions he asked reflect this mentality. Those that have said that they started off with a $5k-$10K boat ten years ago are going to be better off financially in the long run. What good is a $80K boat that sits in the driveway all the time because you have to work 100 hours a week to put it there?

The best way out of the rat race of Middle Class America is finance as little as possible and pay off the things you do have to finance as quickly as possible. The banks and finance companies require you to stay in the Middle Class spending everything you make so they can prosper, but it is your choice...

(Message edited by Byrd on February 01, 2007)

(Message edited by Byrd on February 01, 2007)

Its always funny to me that people that have money always like to give "ADVICE" about how to spend or save it. They always say "Its hard work that made me this money". They never mention to you that it takes 80% luck and 20% skill. I think the biggest problem is people with money now dont value the price of a regular worker. Now they now that they can get some dudes off the street and pay them a lot less than a reg guy. Now that reg guy is in the MIDDLE CLASS. So thats when "luck" comes into play. Hopefully the middle class guy gets lucky in life. If not he then has to sell his boat or what ever he needs to sell to get by.
I know this because it may happen to me. Thank god I havent had to sell my boat yet but its getting close. I'm a small business owner that has to deal with these people with money getting these "dudes" off the street. That really hurts me and the business. But I know what the public is like. They dont care about this issue unless it happens to them and thats the sad part. Thats why banks find different ways to lend people money.Like home equity loans, longer terms on car loans and boat payments. Even to buy a dam house in cali you can only afford to pay intres't only or less than intres't. No one wants to admit that cheap labor and sending jobs over seas is killing the middle class. Thats why so many people owe so much money. Anybody that has a small business knows what im talking about. If they raise the small business tax then my option is to not pay taxes or go to jail, not pay workmens comp or insurance. Or go work for the BIG company. See at the end of all this we are all going to be working for the same people. THE GOV. Just like our freedoms slowly rotting away.

Forget the dudes on the street. Does it hurt small business if I decide to paint my own property, or mow my own yard, or remodel my own basement?

That's how I'm trying to move up out of the middle class. Do it myself, and have no debt.

(Message edited by lcky275 on February 01, 2007)

All Eyez,

While I don't necessarily disagree with your statements, I still have a hard time feeling all that bad for you that you may have to sell your boat. You have a $60k+ boat yourself. There are a ton of people out there who would never dream of being able to buy a brand new boat (especially at today's prices). So maybe you fit in in the "middle class" better with the rest of us owning 7+ year old boats because that's all we can afford.

<quot>They always say "Its hard work that made me this money". They never mention to you that it takes 80% luck and 20% skill. </quot>

To say this is just wrong. My wife and I make good money, but we've spend the last 15 years working our butts off to get there. We've been smart, saved when we had to, and made sacrifices when needed. To say that is all luck that I have the job I have and that my wife has the job she has is just plain wrong.

That said, I am not a small business owner, and for the most part, my income does not directly depend on what the govt does to small businesses. In that respect I agree. The govt seems to do its best to make sure that the small businesses stay that way.

You have to be careful not to generalize too much here.

Ok, I feel better now.

<quot>They always say "Its hard work that made me this money". They never mention to you that it takes 80% luck and 20% skill. </quot>

I would say more like 20% luck and 80% skill. We are all given equal opportunity to succeed in High School. If you try hard enough there, you will have created opportunities for yourself at the college level. If financing is a problem, suck up your pride and go to a state school where it is cheaper and/or get low interest loans which are universally available. Continue to work you butt off in College like you did in High School, resist the temptation to party every second, choose a decent major, and you will have created great opportunities in the job market. You might get a "lucky" break or two along the way but I would say the above scenario (for those who take this route) is mostly skill, not luck.

Funny how the harder you work the luckier you get.

Blessed might be a better word than luck. Depends on where a person lives and how much work and how good money is.Me and my family have been very blessed.I wish anyone who is considering or even thinking about purchasing a boat...the best . The way I see it,if you use it enough you will get your money worth.....new or used!!!

You are correct. Thats the word I should of used. I know it takes hard work and being at the right place at the right time.

No worries Byrd, I don't feel picked on. My sit. changed because of accepting orders here to Wa. so I knew what I was getting into and prepared for it ahead of time. I also know once my wife finishes off school to become an RN then our income will change again..

I just find it interesting that the gov't says avg. income is 5k but even making 10 bones an hour keeps you just above the poverty line at 20k a year and when you look in the papers you see a majority of the jobs pay around this much, Oh wait but if we raise the federal min wage to will effect too many business and they will go out of business.....

(Message edited by ghostrider 2 on February 01, 2007)

(Message edited by ghostrider 2 on February 01, 2007)

My friends pops told me that "nothings hard work". "It takes time." Thats true. Some people might be stretching the truth when they say "I work hard". I know that my father worked hard diggi'n ditches when he was young. Now if your a back hoe operator and then you tell me you work hard. Thats stretching the truth. You need to ask the tractor if it works hard.

Hey Kenny maybe the gov should not tax the small business so much and then they could afford to pay better. Wait they just wont hire you because they'll go and get the dude from the street. Middle is just a place to stay for a little while. One day you might make it or fail. But like a wise man said "Keep Your Head Up".

I don't disagree with how much they are taxing small business, in my opinion its way too much, it should be more like the more you make the more they take so us "middle class" and lower can actually not have to juggle money so much..

Increasing the min wage will do absolutely nothing positive for the economy. It's just a "Feel Good" button. Most of the people saying raise the min wage are saying that because they are on welfare and using that as an excuse. How many people do you really know that is trying to support a family on min wage? Answer ZERO! I dont know anyone out of High School making min wage, hell even McDonald's is starting off at $7.50 an hour.

If you dont like your situation, you are the only one that can do something about it.}

didnt want to change the topic, but yeah even mikey D's you make more than the min, but thats not everywhere.. yes its a feel good thing but how many people really make 20+bones an hour?

Anywho, I dont' believe that the middle-class is disappearing, but its not just one persons fault either. We all add to the problems with our expensive "TOYS" !!!

(Message edited by ghostrider_2 on February 01, 2007)