Question about CG certification and Epic boats

Ok, I have been on a few boats and I have a question about getting it certified. Most plates on the boat state X amount of pounds or Y amount of riders.

Do you think that the CG will certify the Epic boat with that amount of ballast?

Don't you think that the big WB boat makers would love to put 3000+ ballast in the boat too but they cannot bacause it is not rated to carry such a load?

This is just a thought I had.

I believe that boats over 23 dont need to be CG certified, correct me if Im wrong.

Epic is 22'9", though...right?

someone else said anything over 21' last time this came up. Mine is 21' 3" and it still has a plate...
Not sure what the ruling is on it....

26 and under
http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/boats/

Anything over 21' doesn't have to meet pleasure craft weighting restrictions set buy the coast guard. We are a USCG certified manufacturer and will meet all USCG requirements for our boats. That being said, manufacturers wanting to put more ballast into their boats would have to make some MAJOR tooling changes to even the largest tournament boats to utilize the amount of stock ballast we have included. The Epic 23v was built with these features in mind, and tooled accordingly. But the 23v is not just about weight. The hull is actually designed to suck itself down into the water when it is in motion, adding to the ballasted effect without the weight. This hull design for suction and wake shape allows most to ride with little or no ballast. Nevertheless, those who crave ballast or those who would like to heavily weight one side for surfing will love our ballast system.

nmma does not = CG

Learn more here:

http://www.nmma.org/certification/about/chart.asp

Thanks for answering!!!

Good luck

Sorry I meant 20' for that USCG reg. Here is a LOOOONG definition of the specific reg that the USCG requires on boats under 20'.

183.101 - Applicability

This subpart applies to monohull inboard boats, inboard/outdrive boats, and airboats less than 20 feet in length, except sailboats, canoes, kayaks, inflatable boats, submersibles, surface effect vessels, amphibious vessels, and raceboats.

FEDERAL LAW

183.202 - Flotation and certification requirements

Each boat to which this subpart applies must be manufactured, constructed, or assembled to pass the stability and flotation tests prescribed in Secs. 183.225 (a), 183.230 (a), and 183.235 (a).


The regulation is complex and difficult to read. The objective of this Guideline is to help the manufacturer calculate first how much foam will be needed to support each of the components (the boat, the machinery, and a portion of the passengers) and then indicate where that flotation material must be installed to pass the required tests. The methods were developed over many years, and the Guideline uses numbers and factors that result in flotation that meets or exceeds the requirements of the regulation. Following these steps carefully will result in successfully floating the boat in the manner prescribed. Some experimentation in testing may be necessary.

Boats requiring Level Flotation shall be fitted with buoyant materials or acceptable flotation systems in at least the minimum quantity as determined below. Void compartments or air chambers that are integral with the hull shall not be included as part of the flotation required.

Flotation material located at the sides, as far aft and as high as possible, will help make boats with machinery located aft float level when swamped. Some boats may require the keel area inside the boat to be void of flotation material so that the space can flood from either end to provide proper balance in the swamped condition.

Integral air chambers cannot be counted toward meeting the Level Flotation requirements. If non-integral air chambers are used for flotation, the Level Flotation requirements must be met excluding the two largest air chambers.

Basically, our method is to calculate the flotation material needed to support the following components when the boat is swamped:

a - the swamped boat;
b - the swamped outboard engine and submerged battery;
c - a portion of the persons capacity;

The total flotation material needed is the sum of a + b + c. The boat must float level and pass a stability test.

Calculations: To determine the total flotation material needed to support the boat and keep it level, we use the following formula:

F = Fb + Fp + Fc

Where:

F = Total flotation material
Fb = Flotation for the swamped boat
Fp = Flotation for the submerged propulsion machinery
Fc = Flotation for the passengers (a portion of)

The idea here is that the boat, without its propulsion equipment and passengers, will have to be swamped and supported with a certain amount of flotation material distributed symmetrically so as to keep it relatively level. When you add the propulsion systems, the boat will be disproportionately heavier aft and consequently the flotation material needed to support the engine and drive will have to be located far aft to counter this unbalance. Finally, through experience we know that the flotation material needed to support the portion of the passengers (persons capacity) must be located way out on the boat’s sides and as high as possible. This is so that the boat may pass the stability test’s maximum permitted heel angle.

Symmetrical location criteria for the flotation system are established for each of the three quantities above. For example, one cubic foot of flotation material three feet forward of the boat’s balance point (when out of the water) can be balanced by three cubic feet of flotation material one foot aft of the boat's balance point. The symmetry may, and should, be varied to account for equipment (such as batteries) if located off-center.

Example of Level Flotation Calculations

Step 1: Determine the flotation needed to support the swamped boat (Fb)

Formula:

Fb = [(Wh x K) + Wd] ÷ B

Where:

Wh = dry weight of the hull
(Everything below the swamped waterline)

Wd = dry weight of deck (everything above the swamped waterline, including factory supplied windshield, hardware and accessories)

K = conversion factors for materials used, from Table 4.1

B = buoyancy of flotation materials used, in pounds per cubic foot

NOTE:
If air is used, B will simply be 62.4 pounds (the weight of fresh water displaced by 1 cu ft). If foam is used, B will equal the weight of 1 cu. ft. of fresh water, minus the weight of one cu. ft. of the foam used, minus the amount of water absorbed by this foam when submerged for 18 hours.

Chris - this stuff is sooooooooo cool!!!!
So... basically you just have to put flotation in places not traditionally utilized since the ballast takes up the space that is traditionally filled with flotation foam under the deck... the weight of the water in the tanks is negligable because it is neutrally buoyant when swamped...???

No Matt, what it means is if your over 20 then you dont have to comply with any of these items since your not part of 183.101. Thats why there isnt flotation in larger boats, only smaller ones because hopefully by the time youve graduated to a large boat you have some common sense and you wont do something stupid to cause your yacht to sink, like say... load up lead or concrete or powerslide it around.

Chris, I am impressed with the article, your ingenuity and the overall look of the boat. Sounds like you have some very innovative ideas, all the best in your business venture.

Chris,

You never answered my question in the other post. The subject has been touched on here, so I'll bring the same question up again from the other post-

I remember talking back to an MC dealer back before ballast was ever added to boats, and they said that if the entire boat were filled with water, it would sit horizontal just below the water surface instead of the industry standard of just the nose barely above water, which is a nice safety feature. I asked the local CC dealer if CC's would do the same, and he would never give me a straight answer (so I guess not). With the amount of ballast the Epic has, what will it do if it is entirely filled with water including ballast?

One interesting point is that the law in Arizona is more restrictive than CG rules. It says that boats under 25 feet have to have that rating plate on it.

David, lets experiment with your boat

In a catastrophic situation the 23v would float nose up as most boats would because of the heavy rear engine. You would have to have a heck of a lot of foam to float a v-drive at the rail. A center engine is a little easier to float but in either case if you are floating at your top rail your boat is scrap. I haven't heard of any states overriding CG regs on any size boat, but I guess I need to look into that. And thanks for the complement srh00z

It does not matter if he has 4 million pounds of water ballast, as long as the boat has enough floatation foam. Since the test would fill the boat with water to see if it can maintain boyancy in a flooded situation, having the boat half full with water will just DECREASE the amount needed to perform the test. In other words, the water ballast does not count when the boat is swamped, as it would be in there anyways.

Now how the boat handles with it full of water is a different story, and whether it has a dendency to swamp easier is another. These, I feel, are the true reason the big three don't have as much standard ballast as Epic or even MB Sports.

I think the lack of ballast to get a pro sized wake on the BUs, Nautiques, MC, etc. is both a liability thing, and a leave it to the end user to customize (much like custom audio). If CC put 3000lbs of automatic stock ballast into a Super Air, the boat would have a pro wake, but it would also sit dangerously low in the water. Also people that are adding 2000lbs of ballast on top of stock usually know how to drive a boat with that much weight. If stock ballast was 3000lbs I'd be willing to bet a few too many newbies would be sinking $60k boats, or at least creating some unwanted damage to the engine and drivetrain, and they would try and take these claims against the manufacturer or the manufacturer's warranty. If someone sinks a super air because they added 2000lbs on top of stock and took a roller, well that's user error not designer error. Also many people choose to customize their wake in different ways. Not everyone weighs down an X-2 in the same way, that's why everyone is asking Big Ed how he does it. Stock ballast gets people started much like a stock CD player gets people started into the custom audio side of things. One question I have for Chris is if the insurance companies are going to freak out at the 4100lbs number and no USCG rating.

The real trick is to have the water act like ballast without having the water "IN" the boat.

For example, if the boat had two hulls with the second hull open in the back, then water would act as ballast without adding to the capacity or floatation requirements of the boat.

Water is neutral in water. Water not in the boat but being transported but the boat will act as ballast.

What do you think of them marbles?

I’m out on the lake last night and I get stopped by the cops for not having my registration numbers on correctly. Midway through my safety inspection (lifevests, fire extinguisher, etc, etc) they check my capacity plate to make sure I haven’t exceeded it. So I remember this thread and start asking about boats without a plate and ask him what the laws are. They tell me (in Washington) boats without a plate they just follow a rule of thumb to calculate the number of persons (weighing 150 lbs. each, on average) the vessel can safely carry in good weather conditions:

Number of people =
length (ft.) x width (ft.) / 15

For example, for a vessel 18 feet long by 6 feet wide, the number of persons is 18 times 6 (or 108) divided by 15, which equals seven 150 lbs. persons (or a total person weight of 7 x 150, or 1050 lbs.) (this is from the wa.gov website)

This is where it gets tricky, because if they suspect the boat has ballast they immediately inspect for it. They said something like “we get people who have 21 foot boats and have 8 people in it, with thousands of pounds water.....and ticket them”

Just thought I'd share

Wallyworld,

No way man!! My boat, while not fancy, is good and paid for.

Chris,

I know that it would be trashed anyway. However, I did read recently (searched, but can't find it) about an X-2 that was filled all the way up with water sitting on the beach), and the engine started right up when the boat was back on land. Anyway, I would just like to have it level if I ever were in that situation. I just feel I would be easier to spot if the boat were level, and it would be easier to hang onto while waiting for help.

Robert,

Good point, Archimede couldn't have said it better himself. The reason I specified the ballast full is because if it were empty, and no water leaked into the ballast tanks, then the tanks would provide 3200 lb of flotation.

GD,

Pretty clever idea of getting around the weight limit.

Bill,

That's why if I had a boat with large ballast capability, I'd have Rule 3800s as drain pumps to get rid of the water very quickly. I'd have valves that route the water to drains on the other side of the boat from where big bad Sheriff is approaching.

Yes they could ticket you but then again a cop on the road can ticket you and you can go to court and fight it. Cops dont know every law in the books so they can honestly make mistakes. I carry a copy of the dui law with me, just in case. In fl you do not have to consent to blow unless youve caused injury or damage in an accident (they can suck your blood then). Im not condoning wrecklessly driving drunk but nowadays if you have a couple beers your legaly drunk. No need for anyone from madd to come on here and try to convert me to a non-drinker while boating so dont even try.