Future Boat

heys guys whats up. Just want to make this post PUBLIC(hate me for it) but i seriously i know what the future of all boats are going to be. EPIC BOATS(we just started talking) is going to hear everything sometime within the next two weeks i have going through my head. Im claiming that they will want to build this boat and forever change wakeboarding/waterboarding/waterskating/surfing? And please dont respond unlease you post and save this message. Dont claim im on drugs either cuz these are all thoughts built over 3 years of layin low.

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

You're difficult to understand....

-Steve

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quote:

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

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Could have fooled me.

just trust me you all will be able to launch 25 foot airs twice as far land smooth like butta and have the best party/friends boat ever

Chris is talking about an actual boat design. He hasn't filled me in yet. But you never know, it could change the way we ride. Although, it should probably come with a parachute if it is going to send my big ass 25' up

its going to happen i promise! anyone wanna bet

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

If youre so sure of this why dont you let us know what it is....?

Because Epic Boats will.

Your "I know something you don't know" posts are getting a little tedious.

Here we go again...............

I have complete confidence that EPIC boats will continue to be innovators. I have complete doubt that their innovation will have anything to do with Chris Williams.

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quote:

these are all thoughts built over 3 years of layin low

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That would make you 19. Sorry is I don't have much faith in the engineering skills of a 19 year old.

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its going to happen i promise! anyone wanna bet

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

(Message edited by cdubs on November 02, 2005)

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Jeez man, if you cant make a very simple sentence without three revisions, how many years of changes is it going to take to actually make a boat?

Ok I just re-read my post and it was pretty mean and discouraging. I hope your ideas are incredible. I hope EPIC picks up on them and make hundreds of millions of dollars. I hope you become a famous boat designer. Until all of that happens, please just keep your posts to yourself. It does no one any good to say that you know what will change wakeboarding forever. Actions speak louder than words anyways. Good luck!!

-Steve

I am sure Epic boats is happy about having Chris Williams, the profit for advancing wakeboarding, endorse their boats.

THC, represent!

you should talk to someone if you've been thinking like this for 3 years

ThrowN up gang signs huh Derek

Toyota

Homie

Crew

4 Life my Bizzau, Forshizau

I thought Ryan had an X-Star?

Did your "revolutionary wakeboard" idea already fall through, and now you are on to revolutionizing boats?

For the love man...

I hope you are right! Everyone will want an epic and I will be able to pick up a used xstar or x2 for 10K! Or I will bay an eipic, do a double up and fly 50ft in the air! ... on second thought, I will need a longer tow rope LOL

What a joke!

Ok Chris. Your not on drugs...just fantasizing about something that probably won't happen. I question your ideas because smooth landings are not so much the results of a boat; More or less the rider's abilities and board. Before you post...get the facts Jack.

Anyone can innovate within their own head.

I spent four MBA courses and countless hours exploring the economics of a 4-place aircraft featuring fly-by-light, power-by-wire, hybrid propulsion (diesel-electric to be followed by fuel cell/electric once that technology matures), two engine safety with single-prop efficiency, open architecture software-based avionics, natural instability for aerodynamic efficiency, F1-style passenger pod for safety, single-button auto-land, etc., etc. Figured that the various synergies combined to offer crazy seat-mile costs and remarkable safety improvements. At least half of the cost of a Cessna is related to manufacturer liability, and the features of this aircraft would prevent MOST of the conditions that cause accidents in small aircaft (over-weight/out of balance, fuel starvation, expired maintenance checks, and that pilot disorientation or incapacitation often ends in a crash). Improving safety on this scale would reduce the costs associated with manufacturer liability to the point where we could offset the higher production costs and end up delivering an aircraft for about the same price as a C172 with twice the cruise speed for the same fuel burn and effectively ending fatalities.


....And while I was doing that armchair innovation, Chris Anthony was BUILDING A FRIGGIN WAKE BOAT IN HIS GARAGE. And lining up investors. And building a team. And exploring marketing relationships.


Vision is less than half the battle.

can we just put a ban on this guy? i mean there's no room for his "i know how make the best boats ever and all those engineers ar mastercraft, tige, malibu, correct craft, skier's choice, mb, fineline, have no idea what the hell they're doing" post.

this isn't the first time he's posted somethinglike this either. this kid is a TOOL.

(Message edited by MADCHILD1 on November 03, 2005)

I cant wait to drive this new boat w/ my big ass bong in my lap...

25 foot airs...the future is in othopedic surgery.

oops orthopedic...

hey cdubs... If you want some serious air, do us all a favor and jump off the golden gate!

I'll take props from our resident NASA Engineer Derek any day One day Epic will be able to afford talent like yours for consultation... Until then I am always open to ideas, which apparently Chris M has more than a few. I have learned a lot from other riders over the years. Everyone uses their boats differently and somethings features that I really like about certain boats other riders just hate. Everyones advice and ideas on what would make a Perfect Wake Boat have helped me greatly in putting together this fine boat we are FINALLY producing.

Don't know how much Mr. Williams had to do with the design, but Epic did change their hull design, and added a 3200lb ballast. (According to their website.) 3200 lbs in ANY wakeboard boat will create a massive wall as long as you put it in the right place.

Hey everyone just to be clear i have nothing to do with Epic's current boat design although its the best out there. How many companies are dedicated to only wakeboarding and dont care for waterskiing? Also how many boat companies put a two ton ballest and have the perfect wake shape? We did have a meeting and after the nondisclosure agreements were signed we had some fun talking. Chris Anthony i cant wait to work with you in the future and put out the Siqsense' Epic Boat. Its cool to finally have a voice on how wakes should be shapped and alot of other stuff. First time a boat company listened to one idea besides the color scheme. haha. Its going to be funny because we know that all the boat companies are going to try and copy some basic never thought of before ideas so we will be on to the next idea when they catch up.

I hate to tell you but this but with 3200#'s of ballast you are going to have one slow boat. I don't care if you put in a couple of 572 hemi's in it, it's going to be slow and cost a ton of money to run. Epic should think about dropping a th400 or powerglide behind that 8.1 Volvo or they could consider dragging a gas station behind the boat or filling the ballast with gas. The hull design is terrible and will have some very interesting things happen under the right conditions. They completely omitted any strakes and have made a hull that will put the nose in the sky all the time since there is no transition. The beam looks to be very wide also which is not a good thing in a wakeboarding boat. You need a small beam so that you can effectively sink the boat deep, like the Sanger's or MB's have. Another major concern would be structure. With all that weight and relatively little dead rise or vee the hull will take a huge beating in the chop. That boat will be riddled with stress cracks in no time. I speak on these things from years of experience of both fiberglass (boat) repair and design. I helped design the original Carlson 16'. Also who is going to warrantee these boats? Why would you spend $45K+ on a boat with no real warrantee. Yes, I know there is a warrantee but collecting on a warrantee from Mastercraft, BU, Mecruiser, etc. if hard enough, I can't see these guys paying for a new boat when needed. I can't count all the boat builders that have gone out of business since I have been in the business, literally 100's. Look at thunder row in Daytona, only 4 builders left and most of them have sold to the big boys. I would love to know who designed the hull. The hull has so many problems it's scary. I'm not even sure you will be able to get insurance on that thing. I with that huge chin and no strakes the boat will crack at the middle of the chin very badly over time.

With all that said, I should also say that I think what they are trying to do is good, they are trying to make a boat without the negatives. This would be difficult for any builder, let alone a small builder. I don't know if there is a Toyota connection but I doubt it by the looks of the hull and lack of Toyota power plant. I am only posting this to try to get they guys at Epic to stop making short cuts and get the R&D where it is needed, i.e. hull design. I know it must be difficult for them, but that hull will be dangerous with 3200 #'s of ballast and will be even deadly with no ballast.

****JUST MY OPINION and I am nobody!****

Remember...Don't say "NO" to drugs...Say "NO THANKYOU"

The ballast weighs more than the boat? Give me a break. I am sure that will get a NMMA certification.

I guess the X-star was not designed specfically for wakeboarding...probably designed for Slalom skiing at 38 OFF at 22 MPH.

Come on guys, nobody says you have to make your wake that big, its just an easy option now. Any rider that likes big wakes would say fill em all up though.

Phoenixdude...your ideas are exactly why underdogs still have a shot in this world.

Your side is "can't do it", "been done before and failed", "we tried that", "everybody knows that's not the way to do things", etc.

Unless you've got detailed design information including internal structures and layup, how can you criticize? Go look at the walkway reinforcement inside a SAN and tell me that structure was designed with infinite wisdom.

Sounds like you're hating just a little bit. Nobody here is buying into this thing, they're just keeping an open mind. People want to ride behind them, look under the seats, read the warranty terms, etc. Keeping a positive outlook on a startup is not cheerleading, it's being supportive for your sport/hobby.

Erring on the side of negativism is your choice, but probably ain't the right one for this community.

Plus, this isn't a go fast, it's a wakeboard boat. He's got a couple of protos out, and will beat the crap out of them. If there are any weaknesses, they will be exposed and addressed. He's using a different type of hull construction than the typical spray it and pray type dayglo speedboat. Not discounting your experience, but these are not mass production boats. Not yet, anyway.

I've worked on everything from a bayliner to a Rudy Ramos Rayson Craft and unless you are going to build that thing out of aluminium or steel there are going to be major structural problems PERIOD! That is beside the point though, that hull is just plain unsafe IMO.

I know what the boat is going to be used for, wakeboarding and I also know what wakeboarders do with their boats including but not limited to power turns, going over 30 mph and bashing through double ups. I only offer my critism to point out some serious issues. Hell if someone would have kept Delorean on track we would have aluminum gull wing doored cars that got 100 mpg using the Smokey Yunick engine originally slated for the Delorean.

"Not discounting your experience, but these are not mass production boats. Not yet, anyway." Psyclone

You know nothing of my experience, you don't know about the 16 years that I have in the Navy as a designer and engineer, you don't know about my 8 years with Carlson, and you don't know about my 20 years in the fiberglass/marine repair business. I do however know about 100's of boat builder's failures, about 10-20 boat builder's successes, and that Toyota of all companies couldn't build a boat that they could stay in business with.

You can polish a turd but in the end it's still a turd!

Derek,
When you say Phoenixdude, I assume you mean me so I will answer your questions.

- Unless you've got detailed design information including internal structures and layup, how can you criticize? Go look at the walkway reinforcement inside a SAN and tell me that structure was designed with infinite wisdom.

Well, after repairing boats for 20 years in my shop, plus 16 years helping design them in the Navy, and after 8 years with the most innovative boat designer/builder ever I think I am qualified to say that no boat out there with that hull design or similar design will hold up or even be safe. As far as the walkthrough on the SAN we have repaired of few of them with cracks running up down the parallel with the keel but the SAN is a pretty well designed and built boat.

Yes I have negative views on the Epic that I have seen so far but with out someone pointing out the obvious you just have a bunch of people jumping on the bandwagon for something with major flaws. I hope the guys at Epic take the opprotunity they have by having some industry pros take a look at the hull and show them where they could improve it. I know for a fact that people like Phil Bergeron here in Arizona or Rudy Ramos in Cali. would offer valuable input on the hull. I also know that you don't need to reinvent the wheel everytime that you do something new. Hell 3/4 of all boats out on the market today are splashes from older boats that worked. Epic also might want to contact the students at either ASU, FSU or MIT regarding hull design, I know all three schools have post doctoral students in the mechanical engineering department working hull design. Just a thought and just my opinion!

I don't know why this thread has taken such a negative tone I guess I don't know Chris W's history on this board, but besides his slightly abrasive and disorganized writing style he hasn't seemed to set about to cause any disharmony here. He has come to us at Epic Boats with some really innovative ideas that could change the way some chose to ride. He has some really "of the chart" ideas that could create whole new sports and some simple things that are just plain cool. We are happy to hear him out and will help him any way we can(as we would help anyone) to help make wake sports more enjoyable, more accessible, or just easier. I will have to beat him up on his statement referring to us "and don't care for water skiing?". I appreciate that wake sports are a direct evolution from water skiing and the people who labored to make water skiing a real sport deserve all the respect that I can give them because it is because of their dedication that we have wakeboarding today. WakeBoarding is certainly different and those who participate are typically just a different kind of crowd when compared to water skiers. But it is really all about enjoying yourself on the water. In general water skiers are extremely courteous on the water(not power turning and such) and are very accepting of our "relatively" new sport. I have many water skiing friends and respect their sport. In short, Epic Boats does care for water skiing but I have never been skiing and don't plan to. I love wakeboarding and that love is what set me on my mission to design something better... Having said that, the evolution of the Epic 23v has nothing to do with Chris W's ideas. I am the designer of the Epic 23v and with the help of friends, fellow wakeboards, and people who have found the project interesting from all parts of the world it is finally coming together into something I am happy to see people examine. I would be happy to address "fiberglassman's" concerns with my design but would not like to expose many of our specific innovations in a forum such as this. Sufficed to say, our boats are EXTREMELY well designed and built. No other company is producing a resin infused wake boat, yet alone an All Vinylester version. We are using the technology utilized in Burt Rutan's Spaceship One. Our support structure is an 5 stringered system which is incredibly strong. These two technologies alone make our boats excessively strong. Our R and D has shown that our resin infused boats flex much less than any boat of similar size and any composites guy will tell you that the secondary adhesion and strength characteristics of all Vinylester construction just kills any comparable Polyester or Blended Construction Boat. The actual hull design is a product of a tremendous amount of research, computer work, and field testing. The DROP Zone technology that actually pulls it down into the water works better than anticipated and it has performed flawlessly. It slices through double-ups and big waves and turns on a dime with the Vector Steer system we have pioneered on this boat. And the ballast system is completely appropriate for this design and has been a central feature of this boats design from its onset. I have spent four years designing, testing and improving this boat so it is ready for people who want to hit the water, play hard and put their boat away until its next use with little effort or maintenance. Read http://www.wakeworld.com/getarticle.asp?articleid=296 for a little background on this creation up to the point in which I was looking for a manufacturer. Now we are gearing up for full production and getting these boats out to appreciative riders everywhere. I can't wait to really get rolling with production and start working on the next versions of our boats. I appreciate any criticisms and welcome suggestions and how to improve these boats. I am a lover of all boats though. I can appreciate Malibu's attention to detail, MasterCraft's breakout X-Star design, and Nautiques shift into their 226 and 220 lines. Any boat which you are having fun riding behind is a great boat for you. And if it happens to be an Epic, all the better. Anyways, Chris W really does have some interesting ideas on the sport and I can't wait to see them come to life, just as some can't wait to get a pull from one of our new boats to see just how different it is.

Hey Chris sorry about that waterski comment. My Dad runs 28 off though, haha. Ill let you beet me up though for sure. Ill call ya! -dubs

Hmm, 2 more post while I was writing my last one. I can only say that sometimes it helps to have a fresh perspective. Boats have been built with the same technology for years and I saw room for improvement. I spent nearly a year just considering the design aspects of this boat before I started to tool this almost three years ago now. Trust me Fiberglassman, I have done my due diligence. I have met with some of the best designers and engineers on the face of this planet, not just in the boating industry but in many industries from toy design to advanced robotics engineers that are building parts for Mr. Rutan as we speak. I have been able to attack this with a fresh perspective, which may seem like madness to some. But trust me, it is not. The boat is performing beyond all our expectations. It drives better than anything I've ever been in, which has been cooberated by many other people that have been behind the wheel of the 23V. And is is a very solid build process that can really be felt when driving it. I will just have to leave it as: anyone who knows me and has been involved with this or any of my projects knows I am extremely thorough and would never build anything that would endanger boarders, drivers or passengers. I have built this boat to enhance the lives of riders and in the process build an amazingly strong and well performing boat. I will hopefully be spending a whole heck of a lot of time off the end of a rope attached to an Epic and probably even more hours behind the wheel. Why would I build something that would hit a couple of waves and crumble to pieces? This boat will pleasantly surprise many, hopefully "fiberglassman" included

(Message edited by cla17 on November 15, 2005)

Sorry for the bad juju, Chris. It's just that for a startup company, I'd rather have one person with cdub's enthusiasm then four guys that have been through the mill. Experience is critical, but sheaht, it can be blinding and a killer of creativity.

Holy crap dude, get off the computer. You should be enjoying life instead of taking grief from someone like me. I will say that I left the military as fast as possible (6yrs) because I saw the limitations that are imposed by the structure and mentality of the military, there is only so far you will go because you must comply with the structure or you will be crushed. There is no room for experimentation or innovation, it is all status quo. I am in awe of anyone that served in the military during that time, and have nothing but good things to say about the military on the OUTSIDE but on the inside I know what a clusterfudge it is. Absolutely no disrespect meant as far as your military service goes, my generation will always be in debt, cornholing comments aside. STILL,

At some point in your life you must concede that you are not the profound authority on everything. Now is that time.

(Message edited by cyclonecj on November 15, 2005)

WOW, first off. I respect everyone who has served. I got into this project after a boot out of Ranger School due to a back injury. I was fortunate to have helped a few guys through some very tough training before I found myself on the civilian side again and am saddened by the fact that some of them have already paid the ultimate price for our freedom. My father is retired special forces which lead me into the Army and I would hate to denigrate anyone's service to our country.

Back to the discussion: Very True Derek, and I hate to HiJack Chris W's post because the discussion has turned to basic criticisms on my design. But ,on a reread, I caught a "TURD" comment that I glanced over (probably mentally blocked out). Did he call my baby a "TURD"??? Them is fightin words, aren’t they? Anyways, I guess it might just come down to optimism. Pessimists are probably as content, as they can be, with the states quo. Optimists, like me, are looking for better ways to do things. Ben Franklin = Optimist, Burt Rutan = Optimist, and I'm riding a pretty good hunch that Fiberglassman = pessimist. Who the hell would fly a kite to try and find out what lightning is really made of … Who would build a SPACE SHIP that takes of like a bottle rocket and floats back to earth like a feather… And who would build a boat with no strakes and 2 tons of ballast… Well…I guess the answer is: an optimist. Someone who sees that there might just be a “better way” and the faith in a positive outcome if they just “go for it”. I am, of course, not putting myself in a category with Franklin or Rutan. But I am an optimist and have jumped into this head first. Fortunately, I am now to the point where the points Fiberglassman are easily discounted. I have had many riders behind this Camo boat and the original prototype. The handling is AMAZING. The boat feels VERY solid through the roughest conditions. And the wake is HUGE with a great shape. Then there is all the interior stuff and toys but that isn’t what is being picked on here. I mean, its not like I made this thing out of plywood and now we are wakeboarding behind it with a 100cc outboard or something. We were just on Fuel TV with a whole San Diego shoot with some of the best WakeSkaters in the world aboard. We took, LITERALLY, a 5’ set of rollers from a tug boat during the shoot with no damage and not a drop of water in the boat. We have taken it through the hardest handling test we can dream up and it has handled them all with ease. The Vector Steer has worked very very well and the hull has shown no signs of chine lock, excessive roll, or dip. I really can’t say enough about how well the boat has turned out. But the first six versions, weren’t exactly what we were looking for. After months of testing and tweaking we finally had a design we could run with. The computer really did help in my pursuit but it was actual on the water testing that has produced the wake and handling which everyone is seeing today.

Anyways, this is getting repetitious. Fiberglassman, I just can’t take you seriously if you don’t even know what resin infusion is: quote “the MB's and Sangers are totally resin infused and both use Vinylester.”. They are not resin infused. And they use a blended Vinylester resin, most likely just in the skin coat. I am not downing their methods, as they make great boats that stand up to the worst conditions. They just build differently than we do. If you don’t know what high pressure, direction resin infusion is then don’t pretend to. The only marine products I know of that utilize this method are some very high-end Hot Boats, some race yachts(it is what put the Australians Yachts in first place for years and years) and one very new Wake Boat . The aerospace industry is starting to catch on and it was used extensively to put Space Ship One into orbit. There is a HUGE difference between this technology and SCRIM, RTM, Vacuum Bagging, Sandwich Construction, or any kind of hand lay-up or chop method. I am surprised that a guy in the industry wouldn’t know about this kind of stuff. It says a lot that you are still using “old school” technology without any consideration as to what is breaking ground in our industry. note these beautiful chopped glass wall tiles from Pheonix Fiberglass

I would love to take your vague criticisms to heart, but it seems obvious that they are not well thought out, based on an educated analysis of the 23v, or a deep knowledge of this style of design or the technologies used to build it. If you decide to take an objective look at what we are doing and give me a little credit for something that has tons or design, testing and expert analysis which has all proven very positive, then I would love to give you a first hand look at what we are doing and how we really are on the right track. The 23v isn't a "Turd" to me, and I'm willing to bet that our hundreds of customers into next year will side with me on the design, technology and just plain cool functionality of our boats.



(Message edited by cla17 on November 16, 2005)

Regarding the above pictures, you use the process for the application. You don't build a door hinge out of titanium do you? I know exactly what resin infused is. Rudy Ramos, the best boat builder out there, has been using a similar process for years. Rayson Craft and Hallett boats have both been using a similar process for years. I applaude your methods if that is truely what you are using but still highly contest that hull design unless you plan on just going in straight line, never go over 30 mph and don't mind the nose pointing in the air. You might consider putting some sight holes through the dash and out the bottom of the boat, it might be safer.

That's it Chris. You better close up shop because the old know-it-all says it won't work. It is amazing how one can make such informed judgements by looking at a couple of pictures on the internet.

You obviously have no idea what Epic Boats is about. Read the article on our inception http://www.wakeworld.com/getarticle.asp?articleid=296 I am just a guy with a passion for wakeboarding who overextended his credit cards to start a dream boat in his driveway. We are anything but a corporate giant and don't even have an ad on WW. Although I can't wait until we can throw Dave some $$$ for a banner and to support his great site that allows us the luxury of discussions like this. The end game here is that you have seen three pictures on which you could make an educated guess on what our running surface might actually look like. You just don't have enough information to make judgements like Quote: "with that huge chin and no strakes the boat will crack at the middle of the chin very badly over time." and quote: "That boat will be riddled with stress cracks in no time." If anything this boat is WAY over engineered for the stresses it will see at its meager 40mph top speed and 25mph with full ballast running speed. You're like a guy shouting at the TV because the QB threw an interception. "YOU IDIOT, THE OTHER GUY WAS WIDE OPEN" You aren't on the field and you just don't know why he threw that ball and why he didn't see that other guy. Just as in this case, you just don't know why this boat is built the way it is. You advised us to quote: "have some industry pros take a look at the hull". The point of this whole design is that it has been built outside the restrictions of the "INDUSTRY". The "INDUSTRY" has been doing things the same way for years and years. It is time for something new, something created from scratch to be a better wake boat. It's why every major innovation in the world has come about. Hmmm, flatheads screwdrivers work but I bet if you used four points instead of two, it would be much easier to work...Phillips thought... It is just how innovation works. And about your above picture. You might make a door hinge out of Titanium if you really needed the door hinge to perform well under harsh conditions. i.e. a NASA hinge. Space Ship One came out and was the first privately owned project to make it to space. They did it with a crazy little craft that no one considered could do it. It was soooo different an sooo unique that the "INDUSTRY" said it would never work. How could anyone make something better than NASA??? Well they did, and it works, and it will revolutionize the way everyone thinks about space travel and the way the space "INDUSTRY" thinks about their future projects. I hope to do the same with my little project. Make the sport better and in the process change the way the "INDUSTRY" thinks about design and how to improve our growing sport...

Amen!
Chris A, don't waste your time responding to all the naysayers. they (like most of us) have no idea what you have gone through to create this boat. 99% of the people on this board applaud what you are doing. keep it up, and good luck with your "project". I hope to someday be pulled behind your creation.

how can you critisize a hull design from a picture?
last time i checked, the Super Air hull has no strakes on it, and i have been in one that did 47 mph. power turns too. and when going sloer, no way to see over the nose except by standing.
noone has any right to critisize anything on how the boat performs or how it is designed untill they spend time in and around the boat and manufacturing process.
jees. a bunch of 14 yr olds bickering about nothing.

Chris:
You gain respect from me with every post you make. I wish you the best of luck, and hope that when im ready to make a new boat purchase, the Epic will still be an option. Some very innoavative ideas, and concepts, that in all honesty I had some initial concerns about. It would appear however, that you have done your homework. If nothing else your pushing the envelpoe and forcing others to look at current ideas, technology, and design, and that will ultimatly only be good for the wakesports industry. I hope you have an Epic in Nor Cal next spring or summer and that i can see it in person and maybe get a ride behind it.

click here if you haven't seen pics of the epic boat.

Will someone explain to me what strakes are, what they do and why we need or dont need them?
Also what would make this boats nose rise more than any other boat?

I am rooting for Epic on this one but kinda wonder what fiberglssman is talking about.

Strakes are ridges on the bottom of a hull:



Note the four strakes on the bottom of this Tige. They serve to put the boat on plane quicker and make the boat track better.

Here is a 210 with no strakes:



Note that there are no strakes on the bottom. Yet some how I don't hear about 210s flipping or beaching themselves daily?

Here is a running pic of the Epic 23v prototype running along side an older Hydrodyne:



Note that the bow rise on the Eipc is about the same as the completely unweighted Hydrodyne. If anything our bow rise is considerably less than other heavily weighted V-drives because of the nature of the hull design. It is made to suck itself down into the water when in motion and displace maximum volume. Boats with high bow rise use less of their running surface and thus displace less water. The 23v is designed to run more evenly to displace more H2O and thus throw more wake for the rider to use. I hope that helps Jon.

And here is just a cool pic

Thanks alot Chris. I think what you are doing is great. If I could afford a new boat I would much rather give you the money than some big company. You are a nice guy or a hell of an actor on here. Either way it looks to me like you have a great boat and I wish you the best.
Fiberglassman. I would like to see what the the boat that you created from scratch. Maybe I will like it even better than the Epic

Thanks Chris, for at least having a vision and trying something different and innovative; regardless of outcome (hopefully a good one though).

As far as people dogging on the boat, who cares. We can sit here and analyze that thing to death but in the end its the performance that matters. I have seen quite a few stories of "experts" being proven wrong. Most of the time that scenario was similar to fiberglass' format; numbers not adding up on paper.

Lets quit with the monday morning QB negativity and give the guy a chance, do you enjoy an oligopolistic industry?

The Nautique does however have a very abrupt transition point which forces the nose down, unlike the Epic from what I see in the in the pictures. Also a Nautique does have hook built into the bottom so that it creats lift on the back of the boat forcing the nose down. Your hull won't flip over in a turn until it gets some air under it, when that happens the air will be compressed and have no where to go and the boat will be riding on an air pocket making it very, very unstable. Also your implication of the boat being sucked down just by being in motion is a farcity. If that were really possible we would have perpetual motion machines based on that principle. You can force a hull down but you have to do it with the force of the boat going forward, this is not suction but a force from an another source of power like the prop, otherwise you would be getting a greater force than implied and the boat would eventually sink. All in all I will hold further comments until I am fixing one in the shop, which I hope for you and me will be soon....Have fun!

Uh, I didn't want to start an 8th grade science lesson here, but for those apparently not in "The Know", one guy in particular here -- All boats lift when in motion. The faster you go the more the lift you receive. At relatively slow wakeboard speeds a carefully designed running surface can actually create suction, also referred to as downforce. *****This is the part where I explained in great detail all of my hull design features and then realized that this info is probably not something I want in the public domain so I replaced it with these***** The hull of this boat acts much like an airplane wing, except an airplane wing is meant to lift and this hull is meant to drag. The result is a hull that is constantly dragging the boat down further into the water when in motion and constantly counteracting the natural lift that all boats have as they are pushed through the water. Eventually, the boats speed overcomes the drag affect, but at 25mph and under it works like a charm. The science behind the whole thing is this: Bernoulli's Principle states that as the speed of a moving fluid increases, the pressure within the fluid decreases. For the purposes of our little Epic 23v here it can be stated as "-(change in pressure) x area x distance = change in kinetic energy". The principals of lift and drag are a constant. Unless Fiberglassman is trying to refute Bernoulli's age old laws on pressure(and the reverse which is suction or drag) then we can all rest safe at night knowing planes will stay in the sky, race cars will stay on the track, windmills will continue to turn and the principals that I used to design this hull are sound. But Fiberglassman could then take on our Sir Isaac Newton as well and have us all floating weightless through space, but I'm sure he wants to choose his battles carefully

This is great fun reading.... Good luck Chris and you are handling this great... I would be ranting on this while I flamed.

Chris,
I would still like to know if these are going to be at any of the boat shows so we can check them out????

But the boat is not being "sucked" down, it's being driven down, which is entirely something else. You can also use Newton's second law of motion here, F=m*A with Drag Force = Water Pressure * Keel Area + Air Pressure* Exposed Boat Area. Not to be a smarty pants but you can't use Bernoulli's Principle in this example because the principle assumes the fluid to be incompressable, steady and frictionless. Even it you took T = t you still don't meet the requirements of the principle.

(ps)2 + (.5 * r * V^2)2 = (ps)1 + (.5 * r * V^2)1 = a constant = pt

or

P + 1/2rV^2 + gh = C

Also Bournelli's Principle isn't really good in any real life situation since it fails to take several things into account... similarity forces like the Reynolds number (Re = (r * V * dV/dx) / (mu * d^2V/dx^2) )and the inertial forces to the viscous forces.
ht2 - ht1 = q - wsh

None of these equations really can be applied to this example because the fluid is not steady nor is it frictionless nor is it implying a force or is in motion.

Bournelli's Principle is best used in flying and spray examples like plans or methods of fuel injection, the way the Surfers used it in drag racing.

Where is the Magnus flow in your reasoning?

Have done your, dP/dn = rV^2/R or Euler's Equation? Were you able to make it aply too?

I know some ••••••••• I just choose work in where I can make the most money and have the most fun. I'm not stupid, and I know you have to be thinking what does this guy know that I don't. I'm telling you, you should talk to Rudy Ramos about that hull.

dear lord man, if you dont like it, then dont buy it. i dont think anyone else here cares what principles you can spout out on paper, because as far as i am concerned, it doesnt always make sense on paperbut works in the real world. and vice versa.

Please tell me what forces other than mass(g) are acting in the negative direction (assuming X upward is posative) or sucking force. Are you saying air pressure is acting as a downward force? If so it also has an equal working upward.

or are you saying the boat has a net positive moment applied to it by the hull design?

*****This is the part where I explained in great detail all of my hull design features and then realized that this info is probably not something I want in the public domain so I replaced it with these*****

Chris, if you start talking about your Magnus flow, I may have to report you.

OBTW, after giving all this crap, I feel it necessary that I commend you on your efforts. No I don't know it all but I have seen many, many boats come and go and figure I will see many, many more. I think you have some good size cohonies to take it upon yourself to educate, design and build a freaking boat in your driveway! I'm sorry for being a dumbass but I do have a real concern for the safety of the passengers and the strength of the boat.

I know that either Rudy or maybe even Art Carlson would love to talk to you about your hull design and I think they could really help you out. I really enjoy how the dynamics on your computer actually translate to your wake propagation on water, very nice engineering.

I appreciate your nod to my efforts on this Fiberglassman. But I still don't think you are seeing the forest through the trees on my design points. I won't get into Magnus flow and face the wrath of Derek, but I will say that the basic Bernoulli Principal is at the heart of my design concepts. We have done tons of CAE work on this hull and used many Eulerian-Lagrangian numerical simulation variations through panel code models to find inviscid flows, wave patterns and resistance in different environments(that is a BIG sentence...I LOVE TALKN SMART PEOPLE TALK!!!) Sorry Derek Anyways, the effects have nothing to do with air pressure and everything to do with fluid mechanics. I am a former race kayak designer, along with my father, and I have been involved with many whitewater course designs over the years. Fluid mechanics are almost as much fun as wakeboarding for me, which is sick, I KNOW... I would love to pick Art and Rudy's brains on my designs but I am really past the point of return on this. The boat has been built and tested under the harshest conditions and has yet to show a sign of weakness. It would be very hard to convince, as it has been with Fiberglassman, any traditional designer that my design is simply better for wakeboarding. The proof is in the pudding though... Come out for a pull/drive and you will see what a difference an outside perspective can make.

Just out of curiosity, did Rudy Ramos or Art Carlson design the X2, SAN 210, X Star, or VLX hull ??

If not, then WHO THE F%&K cares what Rudy Ramos and Art Carlson think about Chris' hull design?

Chris good luck on your creation! It looks nice!

To everyone with an opinion...

How come CC's TWC (total wake control) was such a flop?

Why is the relatively simple narrow/flat hull of the SAN still the best wake producing hull in production today?

Why is the relatively simple narrow/flat hull of the SAN still the best wake producing hull in production today?

enough said....

I don't know why you would say the TWC is a flop? I think it is a pretty versatile solution that might just be a bit underrated for its purpose. It really just creates enough of a pressure zone right by the rudder to lift the tail end of the boat for better skiing. And about the SAN wake... It is surely debatable weather it has the best wake out there, but there is a loyal following and I really like it myself. The relatively flat hull design displaces a lot of water without moving it outward at the same time like any boat with a little V to its hull would. If it was a completely flat hull which just went all the way to the transom the wake would roll at the top badly. Thus the pockets you see cut out of the side(the pinch of the hull). This allows the spread out smoothly from the tail end of the boat and causes the wake not to roll. One drawback to the "pinch" on this boat is that it leaves a trough before the wake. Some people really like the snowboard style PUMP they get into this trough, but some hate it and hate landing in it on the other side. Each to their own though. I like the kick but hate the trough. We tried to really minimize the trough on the Epic 23v. But we also gave it a really firm lip so you can really feel that POP of the top of the wake. Like many have said, our wake is just different. But I do like the 210s' wake and like the new direction CC is taking with the new 220.

Joe if you knew shineola you would know that Art Carlson is in one way or another responsible for just about every boat innovation ever made, PERIOD!! Rudy is the absolute authority on hull strength, PERIOD!! I would aslo bet that in some form or another Rudy and Art's designs have been directly incorporated in the X2, San 210, X Star, or VLX hull, no lie. Do you even know who either of the are?

GD,
Narrow boats or boats that have a small beam work well because they are easier to sink, and therefore displace more water.

The TWC is great hull for producing a medium sized wake with next to no ballast. The problem is you can add more and more weight and it doesn't respond like the standard SAN hull. Nobody these days are happy with a medium sized wake.

Chris is there plans for something a little less epic, like a 20 or 21 foot boat?

I like the wake of the Sanger BTW, not that anyone gives a hoot!

Chris do you know the TWC hull is from the defunct "Pro" air?

I think Sanger got extremely lucky with there hull design, wakeboarding wasn't very popular when they designed the DLX/V210 hull....

(Message edited by ralph on November 16, 2005)

Quote: And about the SAN wake... It is surely debatable weather it has the best wake out there..

Then why does everyone say "how does it compare to the super air wake"

Why is everyone trying to compare and beat it?

Just curious about your warranty program...what does it cover, how many years, is the trailer going to be covered, do you have to take it back to Canada for service and warranty?

Not trying to bust your chops but those are going to be huge issues in first year production boats.

You know when people drop 45K or more for a boat they want stuff to work and they want to feel they are being taken care of not "taken" if someone doesn't feel their rub rail is straight, or they don't like the looks of how the window is attached are you going to say "hey no problem we can fix that for you"

After the sale is going to determine how far you go with this in my opinion...

Just like cars they all have stuff to work out.

I have seen the boat in person and for me it's just a little too big for my liking.

Purely on aesthetics for me I like the looks of these boats in this order:

03' SAN
05' SUPRA21V
04' X2
06' VLX

Going just off of wake factors:

SAN
SANGER
VLX
X2

If storage were a criteria

VLX
VLX
VLX

If I had to do it over again and had to buy an 05' or 06' this is the order I would go

SUPRA 21V I think this boat looks bad ass
VLX does everything you want

Personally I think Mastercraft and CC are headed in the wrong direction with thier boats.

CC is just plain ugly to me in the 06' model

If they came out with something that was better looking than my 03 I would have bought one by now so for me..........I will hang on to my 03 that looks brand spanking new and is as functional as can be for me.

Gramps out......

Gramps, surely you aren't saying that everyone thinks the SAN has the best wake out there??? If this board proves anything, it is that everybody has a boat opinion and the very WILDLY. The warranty and such has not been through final "legal" approval but it should be out in a couple of weeks as the first dealers begin receiving boats. The new boat is much improve over the proto you saw Gramps. But some people just don't like the bigger boats. We are planning on introducing a 21' version late next season which should fill that itch. IMO the VLX is the boat to chase for 2006. The 247 is also a really nice offering. I think the 220s will also grab a lot of people that are looking for something more family friendly but like the CC name. But in the wake category I am a little biased

Out of curiosity, I googled Randy Ramos, there isn't much out there. I did find this boat he built on Ebay, it looks badass. It is a flat hull, it appears to have no strakes or chines, seems like it breaks all the rules. If this guy had listened to prevailing wisdom at the time (1964), he probably wouldn't have built this boat. It is a beaut, though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WORLDS-FINEST-RAYSON-CRAFT-V-DRIVE-FLATBOTTOM-LQQK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ63686QQitemZ459113 1787QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

And I did not know the Pro Air connection, but that is interesting Darren. I'm sure the evolution of the 226 and 220 hulls are an interesting story as well.

That is a nice boat, but I could see it pretty much ripping your arms out of their socket on every pull with that nice Nailhead Buick. And I would never climb in over that gel-coat, every nick would just piss me right off.

Psyclone,
That is truely a nice Rayson Craft and yes it breaks all the rules but it does what it was suppose to do, go really fast. That boat has undoubtedly been redone but it is a testament to Rudy's craftmanship. Rudy isn't the greatest hull designer ever, but as far as building technique he has been the innovator and authority on fiberglass techniques since there were techniques. Rudy does have one of the best designs for a GN Boat out there. I think it's funny that Fiberglassman mentions both of those guys. Both were total nut balls in there day and did everything there own way. Look at the 70's Carlsons, they were freakin'g crazy, like the Scimitar...


On another note, I'm really surprised that Fiberglassman posted so many negative posts. He does great work and is a good guy, I don't see what set him off though.

Here is the best example of a Rayson Craft GN that Rudy is so famous for. That baot was called the bastard elephant boat. I think it ran in the mid 120's with a huge hemi motor. It was built to run at 100 all day long pulling a skier. The most popular race to Catalina Island and back.

http://www.hotboat.com/classifieds/detail.php?siteid=799