Stereo cutting out, need help.

'06 Supra 21v with Kenwood KTS-MP400MR control head which is 2 volts I believe. Hifonics Zues Zxi1006 amp 2 channel 500watts @ 2ohms. Skylon Rubicon 350's, which are 3 ohm 350 watts. Ran 4 gauge power off the battery into a splitter then 8 gauge to the sub amp and tower speaker amp. Set amp as close to 2 volts on the level as I could to match the head unit. Pulling ground from the panel under the drivers dash. Everything cuts out at 31 on the head unit. If I turn down the volume, everything comes back on. Is this a power problem? I'm thinking I need to run 4 gauge wire for ground and power. Any suggestions? Also for those that have the same head unit, do I need a preamp to separate the volume control from the boat speakers and tower speakers? Someone told me no, but I can't find a setting that allows me to control them independently.

I have a similar problem with my Rubicon 450s.

By cut out, do you mean that the horns on your 350s turn down or 'muffle'?

Or do you mean, everything goes silent?

My Pro80s horn muffles at high volumes cuz the built in horn protection kicks in if it reads distortion from the amp, I still need to fine tune everything. HLCD's are very sensitive. Craig, are your 450's muffling? If so, what did you do to fix the problem? Randy, I run 4 gauge power and ground to both my amps even though my Zapco only calls for 8 gauge.

I mean everything cuts out, head unit, tower and boat speakers and sub. Comes back on as soon as I turn down the volume.

Randy, I would run your ground directly from your battery, either 4 or 8 gauge.

I am no stereo expert, but sounds like battery prob.... are you sure you have enough battery power to run the system?

Both batteries show good voltage. I'm not sure why everything cuts out. I'll try running the ground straight to the battery. The sub amp ground is run to the battery, but then it is mounted close to the batteries.

MAke sure ALL connections are secure. Mine was cutting out once until I noticed that the bolt on the battery wasn't holding the power cable well.

But that wouldn't explain turning the volume down and the system coming back to life. SOunds like an amp issue to me. Internal electronics malfunction causing it to go into protect mode from overheating. Take just the amp to a good stereo shop and have them test it.

Good luck.

batteries may show good voltage but you need to test under a load ie; stereo running. Start with your batteries, give them a good long trickle charge and try it again.

Checked all of the connections. I'll have to test the batteries under load. Amp is brand new, but that doesn't mean anything. If it's overheating, it happens right away.

Steve,

4 different amps and the problem didn't go away. I tried my Rubicon 450s on Diggs' boat and they performed just fine.

I have found recently that if I set the gains exactly right the problem mostly goes away. Furthermore, I removed my PAC-LC1 volume controller and am getting significant more volume and less muffling out of the Rubi's. Muffling has been reduced to only some songs. I have a replacement head unit sitting in the box in my living room...It's going in today. Lastly, I'm going to buy a line driver to boost the preamped line voltage.

Also, Steve, the muffling is a result of the cross-over circuitry and not the HLCD itself. This is done by design to protect the HLCD.

Are the gains that sensitive? I was told by the manufacturer that you had to have them close, but not exact. I'm thinking I have too small gauge wire. Diggs, what gauge are you running and are you pulling power and ground straight from the battery?

I havnt heard of any muffling problems from any NVS owners, what does NVS use or not use that these other manufactures are using? Craig, what was so diffent with Diggs boat than yours for them to work right on his boat and not yours? Are you guys running your amps on High Pass or Full range for these HLCD setups? Im running mine in High Pass at 90hrtz on the amp but am thinking about trying full range. Also running 0 treble on HU and EQ.

I'm running high pass per Hifonics tech support.

I pulled the head-unit yesterday and it appears that was it. It appears it had a faulty pre-amp output. This problem always demonstrates itself on the water...so will see if the problem is indeed gone after the HU swap out. I think adding the PAC-LC1 controller to a faulty pre-amp head-unit simply amplified the problem.

Steve, I'm currently crossed over at 150hz as per Dave Couch's recommendations. Dave engineered the Rubicons at Skylon.

I'm not by any means a cross-over expert. Dave told me that the Rubicon’s have "Clipping protection" in the cross-over. When the cross-over detects clipping it attenuates the horns. I would suspect NVS doesn't have this protection? It's baffling to me how a passive x-over can detect clipping...but that's beside the point.

The odd thing is, My home grown Pro-Audio setup. (which had only an active cross-over) sounded fine with the old deck...In fact, I'm going to suggest it actually sounded better and louder. I'm going to do some comparison testing with an SPL meter before the year is out.

Hey Steve, have you called WetSounds? Their customer service is top notch. I read a post where they worked through a muffling problem on another set of Pro80s.

In working with Skylon, their customer service had more of an interest in proving it wasn't their problem than helping me solve my problem. Without really trouble-shooting the problem on the phone, they resorted to "Ship them back." I didn't really want to drop $70 to ship them, and be without them for 3 weeks. So I solved my problem through other means. I'm glad I did, because they would have shipped them back and said "they work fine." leaving me in the same place I was before I shipped them.

I want to hear some Wetsounds. I may make the switch. Anyone in Washington State with Wetsounds?

Tim White: any dealers up here?

Randy,

If I had the gains 3 degrees to one side, they'd clip and muffle, 3 degrees the otherway and they weren't loud enough. It was painful finding that setting. Though, I was working with (what I believe now) was a faulty head unit. They are louder with the new head unit.

Randy,
I thought about your problem some more...I don't think it's a power starvation problem. It's very odd to me that two different amps would detect a power starvation problem at exactly the same volume level on different songs and they both shut off. It's impossible for the amps to detect the same voltage level while running. They will each read a different voltage level based on the current they're drawing at the time of sampling. (For instance, in the middle of heavy bass hits, the bass amps going to be drawing a ton of current, which will cause a significant voltage drop at it's power terminals--this assumes there is an insufficant wire delivering ground to both amps) Also, after they both dropped out, one of them would detect sufficient voltage to return to operation. So this, IMO, isn't plausible. Though, Lets test it.

Two tests to prove power starvation is or is not the case:

1) Disconnect the speaker on the Sub amp. repeat test.
(I suggest unplugging the speaker because I want that amp running in an idel state so it doesn't doesn't have affect the pre-amp side of this system)

2) Plug the sub speaker back in. Unplug the the remote line from the sub amp (shutting it off.) repeat test. plug it back in, unplug the remote line on the rubicon's amp and plug the sub back in. repeat test.
(This will have affect on the Pre-amp side of the sytem.)

If problem remains on test 1, but problem goes away with test 2 then, I'm going to suggest that it's a clipping problem and to troubleshoot there next. Both amps, I assume are the same brand, use the same clipping detection circuitry, so It seems reasonable that when one detects clipping, the other does. Furthermore I believe they have clipping protection that engages and shuts them down....Turning the volume level down and removing the clipping, they return to active state.

Are you using an RCA Y-Splitter? If so, get that thing out of there. Plug the RCA directly into your Rubicons and reset the gains and re-test.

What happens when everything cuts out, If you look at the lights on the amps do they shut down completely? Is there any warning lights?

If my stream of thoughts here is correct to this point, then: it may mean your Kenwood deck is only capable of 31 before produces a clipped output. Perhaps a line driver would help in this case: http://cgi.ebay.com/PLANET-AUDIO-6CH-LINE-DRIVER-6-CHANNEL-NEW_W0QQitemZ120026770895QQihZ002QQcategoryZ14932Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Let us know what you come up with.

(Message edited by yosquire on September 03, 2006)

Craig, Ya Ive been working with wetsounds. There customer service in the best. They actually sent me a brand new pair and now Im working with them to fine tune everything.The first pair they paid to have shipped back to them for testing and couldnt find any problems so they sent them back. They were still muffling on my end so I asked if they could send me a new pair and they did along with some speaker covers. These new ones muffle at very high volumes but at least I know its not a defect in the speakers, I just need to find the sweet spot and tune them in.

huh... Yeah, Skylon doesn't show me that kind of love.

Also, post back when you solve the problem. Or PM me. I want to hear what you come up with.

(Message edited by yosquire on September 03, 2006)

Hey Craig. Problem with the 1st amp that I had was when it was bridged it was 4 ohms. The Rubi's are 3 ohms. I have to try your tests tomorrow. Sometimes the head unit will cut out at 31, other times 27 and others 34 all on the same song at the same time with the gain set the same. I'm learning as I go, so I'm not sure what a line driver does, but I do have a preamp that I'm going to install so I can control the tower speakers from the boat speakers.

Dudeman,

The ground under my dash is a puny little thing and I would not trust it to have enough capacity for the power of your amps. I am not an electrical genius, but the first thing I would do is get a better ground for your amps. The stereo itself may not need a better ground, but I think that the amps do for sure.

Maybe one of the electrical engineers here will make up some explanation as to why the power would use 4 guage and the ground could be a lot smaller, but from what I understand, they should be the same or at least close.

In a car amp wiring kit, that is the case. The reason being that hot wire is a lot longer, the ground connects directly to the car chassis, a short run. Not as much drop in a short run, hence the different gauges.

In a boat, there's a good possibility that the wires will be the same length, and sometimes long runs. So, use bigass wire of the same gauge for hot and return. They have the same amount of current flowing through them. I have had exactly the same problem as above with wire that was too small.
Make sure that both batts get full charge, have them load tested if the problem reoccurs after fixing the wiring problem.

It could also be an overload problem, if you are running bridged and or speakers in parallel.

Thanks for everyone's input. I think that the wiring gauge is the place to start. I'll be running 4 gauge for both the ground and power. Also, will the gauge wire to the Rubi's matter. Think I ran 14 or 16. Do I need 12 gauge?

Ran all 4 gauge wire today and that solved the problem. No more cutting out. Just need to wire in the pre amp now.

I had a feeling that would solve your problem Randy, I run 14 gauge to my Pro80s, I think 12 would be overkill. Glad to hear the problems solved. Now if I could figure my problems out

I was going to run new wire to the speakers also, but I called Skylon and they recommended 16 gauge wire, so I left it. Wish I knew more about stereos Steve so I could help you out. Good luck.

Randy,

Did you rerun the ground, or just keep it on the dash? Just curious because I thought the problem might be that the dash ground was inadequate.

talltigeguy, reran the ground also. That ground on the buss under the driver is good for low draw accessories, but not for amps.