Rough Water, Surf, Large Crew Boat
Finally in the market for an upgrade from our 08 23lsv. It is an awesome boat and really my only complaints are it is limited to 14 ppl and is totally overmatched in rough water. I get that none of the true wake/surf boats are going to match a ski boat or larger boat but looking for the best of the bunch.
We spend a lot of time on Lake of the Ozarks in the summer and the main channel there is just nuts. My budget is 100k. That puts me in G territory (used). But curious if anyone has other boat suggestions or feedback on the G's real rough water ride? We surf primarily but still take wake sets. Regular crew size of 10-15. Thanks! |
LOTO? You need something like Miller Time only in direct drive form with tow in jet skis so you don't have to keep stopping.
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G25? would almost have to be for your crew
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Centurion Ri257
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14 people is going to be a lot on most any boat. The big Ri is probably a good option but doubt you could get one for $100k. MB F24?
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maybe a 247 since they've been out a bit longer wow g25 for 100.. awesome colors IMO https://www.onlyinboards.com/2014-Na...ork-71441.aspx |
I've been on an 25LSV with 17 people. It's tight, but that boat is a limousine! You can probably find one for maybe 105-110k
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Supra SE is great. Massive and dry. I boat Okoboji IA which is a smaller LOTO situation with boats waaay too large for any sanity. I had an F24 Tomcat before, which was good. This boat is SO DRY. It’s impressive. The Tomcat was excellent, but this is markedly better.
Surf wave is silly good, wake is also top 10%. Bought my new 16 for 95K several months ago. |
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Rough water ride comfort, goes to Centurion for sure...cuts thru chop like butter with the deep V hull. RI257 also has the biggest surf wave in the industry right now and its a large boat. 2017 is first year....so gonna be tough to get one in your 100k budget. Would be worth it for sure tho.
Used there are lots of options and you can find an RI237 pretty easy. In 2016 and under....the FS44 and SV244 are excellent boats and very roomy. The G's and Supra's are also very nice boats. Lots of great stuff out there in your budget. |
Omg why would you want so many people in a boat. Lol
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If rough water ride is a big concern I would highly recommend test driving boats and especially testing out a Centurion FS44 / Ri237. As mentioned previously a Ri257 would be amazing but probably out of the budget. The new Fi23 would definitely be worth taking a look at as well. Other boats (G23, Supra, etc.) that people have mentioned are great boats that will surf well and ride through chop similar or better than your LSV, but won't deliver nearly the same ride as the Centurion. If rough water ride is a big factor I would definitely get out on the boats and test drive them before making a decision.
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I had an F24 before my SE—a very deep V like a Centurion. I thought the ride quality on the new Supra would be quite a bit worse then the MB. It really is not that big of a difference, shockingly. And the Supra is 100% dry, which the MB was not. That for me (dryness) has really been a meaningful improvement in rough water capability. Because when the rollers are huge, no one is going over 15 to 19 mph anyway. And in that zone a big old Supra rides great.
I know it stands to reason that it deep V shaped hull will ride better, but there are other factors at play to improve rough water performance. I discovered that first hand. |
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If rough water ride it what you are looking for, you don't even need to waste your time looking at Malibu, G23/CC, and Supra. All of these boat have a very flat hull in the rear which will equate to getting beat up in the rough water. For rough water the deeper the V, the better the boat will cut through the water. Also, the weight and construction of the boat will play into this as well. You will also want a lot of freeboard when in the rough water with a larger crew.
Like you, rough water ride is a big deal for me as well and I ended up with an X23 over the G for this exact reason. The X23 rides great in rough water for an inboard. The MC X23, X46 and X26 will be the boat in there lineup that offer a more V shaped hull toward the rear and fit your crew. Others to consider would be Centurion and MB as they have very good V hulls that extend the length of the boat. |
I own an MC but if I was looking surf and rough water I would take a serious look at Tige.
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Or, well, they live in Missouri? LOTO is hardly small. 92 miles long, 54,000 acres. But the boats are too big, yes! |
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Your reasoning is a little flawed. I went from MB to Supra on a very rough lake, and it doesn’t play out like you describe. Transom dead rise is one factor in rough water, and people always hastily equate flat transom to poor ride. Not entirely true on today’s deep boats. True in the old ski boats, yes. Just forward from my Supra SE flat transom hull a pronounced V begins and increases as you go forward. Huge chines prevent spray. It all comes together to ride very well. Nearly as good as my MB F24 did, and COMPLETELY DRY. Even in strong crosswind for rearmost passengers. The splashing from hitting rollers is all out and down. It’s very impressive. Other huge factor is nose height. When idling in rollers, the 2 MC X23s I have been in splashed water up over the low nose regularly. With bow passengers it got worse. For that reason the X23 was “out” as a choice on my lake. Even if it rides well on plane, the low speed splashing was too much. And for $50K more. Centurion may indeed hit all bullet points. I haven’t been on a newer one. But be careful making the generalization that flat transom equals poor ride. It’s more complex than it was in 1997. These huge 6000# wake boats do very well despite the dreaded “flat transom.” |
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The new Tige RZX boats splash water over the nose quite a lot. That would be the biggest hesitation with new picklefork Tige models. |
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Weight is a contributor to the rough water ride as I mentioned in my previous post, but that's only a small piece of the puzzle. But when you are driving a boat in rough water and going 20 mph, the majority of the hull is out of the water, leaving the stern to take the impact, in your case, a flat hull... Sure you can use a trim tab and put the nose of the boat down, but that's not Having put 300 hrs. on my X23, crossing a few bays to get to the harbor for the restaurants, I haven't experienced the spray that you talk about and I can say that I don't take water over the front of my boat. Most good drivers can avoid this. This pronounced V that you describe for a Supra, begins before the tracking fins, which when planning and/or cruising wont be in the water much. My neighbor has an Supra SA, its a very nice boat but you can tell a big difference in the ride quality when in rough water or crossing rollers. Its enough of a difference that my wife who knows absolutely nothing about boats, made a comment about it. Even my neighbor will say that his boat isn't great in rough water. The SA doesn't weight that much less than an SE either. I have no need to be careful about my generalization of a flat hull, its the truth. Inboards aren't designed to be offshore boats and the benefits of a flat hull help produce a great wakeboard wake, but do not help with rough water ride. Maybe your boat doesn't have as much spray as some, but it still wont ride like the deeper V boats when cruising. My generalization comes from years of experience fishing offshore/inshore. |
Rough Water, Surf, Large Crew Boat
It sounds like you, my friend, are the worlds foremost authority on hulls and I redact any and all of my statements including my real world experiences with my SE and my friends X23. Furthermore, I will enroll them and myself in boat driving classes ASAP to alleviate this splashing problem we have experienced in the X23. You’re right, it has everything to do with the driving and nothing to do with the dipped nose that sits 1’ off the water. I am sure there is some way to steer out of rollers from every direction. We weren’t “taking water” over the nose, it was splashing and blowing back in. And its at idle, not on plane as—which I mentioned. Sometimes we idle along—it pleasant! On plane it was just fine and rode like a champ.
You started your by saying “don’t waste your time looking at Malibu, G23/CC and Supra” which I am out to refute—especially the Supra part since I have experience there. The ride in my SE is quite good, especially since it has a flat transom deadrise. Not a waste of time by any means, especially comparing to the vaunted X23 which you are offering as a gold standard. All I know is the SE does great, about the same as my F24, which is a very deep V boat. And the lake is rough as hell. I was surprised as well, as I previously thought deep v was the only way to get an acceptable ride in rollers. Maybe it’s a freak of nature? |
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Oh I agree. It’s out of hand. We have a few 40’ boats on our small lake and it’s way way overkill. It’s a wallet contest. |
Another vote for Centurion. I too came from a newer Malibu. There is really no comparison in ride/wave/quality. The deep V of the Centurion provides a much smoother ride.
The surf wave is night and day different. Demo an RI and you will be amazed at the difference. The wave is firmer, and you have so much adjustability, you can create any shape you want. One additional benefit expecially on large lakes where water can turn crappy REALLY fast. The Ram fill ballast allows you to fill/drain litterally over a ton of weight in seconds vs minutes. So even going to the next cove just a couple miles up. Drain/cruise/refill....NO other manufacturer is as efficient in this area. |
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Nonetheless, I ran 300lbs of lead in the bow of X23, and still had exactly 0 splashes over the bow. I definitely can't say the same for my G, and I don't have any lead in the nose of that. The rough water ride of the G, Any Malibu, and anything in the Supra line, is considerably worse than a X23. Now, the flatter bottom hulls in the G, SE, 23 LSV, etc., have their own list of advantages over the deep v boats (better wakeboard wake, less weight sensitive side to side, etc), but none of them have an exceptional rough water ride. If you want an exceptional rough water ride, you gotta look to MB, Centurion, or the deep v MC's (X23, and X26). The XT MC's have shallow V's and don't have the rough water ride advantage. You sure your buddy doesn't have an XT23??? |
Rough Water, Surf, Large Crew Boat
I am sure. Must have been a crappy windy day. But it was real. Perfect storm I guess? Maybe he had bow filled and no rear or something. It sat low and low. Again, it had nothing to do with rough ride or the VHull, it was the low nose in huge rollers at idle speeds. REPEAT: not disputing that the ride is good and the V is good. Perhaps I need to revisit it regarding the splashing over the droopy bow. I would not buy one anyway, but if it’s dry I need to experience it and stop calling it wet.
I am telling you, my F24 rode very similar to my SE. So I don’t know what to make of that. I had a 2013 MB F24 one day, and literally had the 2016 SE450 the next. MB rides marginally smoother, and splashes rear seat passengers in windy conditions. The SE does not do that. And the rough water ride is FAR from terrible. I am defending the brand in that regard. It’s nothing as drastic as people are stating with the “flatter transom automatically means garbage in rough water.” Maybe I just have an exceptional one. And I agree, the Centurion likely hits all points. |
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Your MB F24 weights 4400lbs and the Supra Weights 5500 lbs. So the MB weighted 1100 pounds less and rode just as good if not better that the Supra. Yes weight is a factor, but that deep V MB hull made up for the lack of weight. I'm sure the Supra is constructed with a stronger stringer system and core so that plays a huge role as well. |
Okay? Whatever it weighs is what it weighs.....we are simply discussing does the boat ride pretty well? Yes, yes it does.
So now we are here? A flat transom deadrise boat like a Supra is terrible in rough water (don’t waste your time), unless it’s way heavier than the corresponding deep V boat (if you want good rough water ride check out the deep Vs like MB). Lotsa qualifiers here. You’re kind of supporting my point—the big solid newer boats can do pretty well even if the have a flat transom. It’s because of weight, shape, etc etc etc. The OP wants a massive boat that does well in rough water. I am simply saying don’t skip looking at an SE because the flat transom scares you. It actually does quite well (as you point out, because it’s heavy). |
Man, I started this discussion thinking the answer was a G. Now I need to go test the Ri257 and others for sure. The cheapest Ri looks to be about $115 right now so def over the budget but its possible by beginning of season others will pop up. I have always loved the relative simplicity of the MB's, just look small in the cockpit. The pricing though is definitely affordable.
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Rough Water, Surf, Large Crew Boat
The answer may be a G—make sure you try them all! That’s the point. Cockpit size varies quite a bit in the “large boats.”
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I have time, would prefer to sell the lsv first and havent even listed it yet. Going to be fun checking out all the different models.
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If rough water ride is priority #1, then ya gotta drive a sanger. Dealer in Houston, found mine in Austin. They're rare in this area but I believe a short drive is more than worth it for the right boat. would come in well under your budget as well.
Not quite LOTO size, but I frequent a 26000 acre lake in my 230, it can get out of hand on windy days. has pronounced V from fins to transom. |
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Ok so there is something that needs to be addressed here when talking about rough water ride - it is important that everyone understands the difference between terms and what exactly someone means when they say "rough water ride" on a boat.
Dry ride = how easily people in the boat get splashed and / or water comes in over the bow when going through rollers Rough water ride = how the boat will cruise at 25-35 mph in heavy wind chop / rollers from other boats If you are only on a small lake and not cruising around then the rough water ride isn't a big deal but if you are driving for an hour each way to ride at Lake Powell through 3 foot chop it becomes a big factor. Dry ride is a factor regardless of the way you use your boat. The angle of the V at the front of a boat matters at slow speed (under 20), however at higher speeds (20+) only the back half of the boat is in the water. Deep V isn't the only factor with rough water ride - how rigid the construction is (not the fit / finish but the actual fiberglass build) is also a major factor. As I mentioned previously - go take them for a drive. We find that answers a lot of questions. |
You guys drive 25-35 in 3’ rollers? GOOD LAAAAWD that would suck regardless which boat you buy, no?! That would rattle my dentures out. [emoji854]
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On another note....... I'm still laughing about the Sanger suggestion from denverd1. Nothing against Sanger, but I believe the OP is really looking for more freeboard as well. Not less. |
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I don't think it is reasonable to expect any boat under 30 feet on a lake like LOTO to be exceedingly comfortable in those conditions but I do want one I can be confident in with the large rollers. These newer larger boats with the higher freeboard like the G are the direction I think I need. Just need to figure out which one. |
Just FYI, the steeper stem angle on the 16+ G23 did it absolutely no favors on taking water over the bow. The bow spray is definitely reduced (still worse than most), but I very frequently have a bit of water come in the bow when I am loaded. It's not really dipping the bow. It's just the steep stem angle makes it plow in the front, and water rises up at the nose and comes in. I wouldn't want my G in 3' water. I'm sure it would handle it fine, but I've definitely owned better boats for rough water ride and keeping water out of the bow. I've owned quite a few....... '10 LSV, '11 X25, '12 X25, '13 XStar, '14 X30, '14 G21, '15 X23, '16 G23, and '17 G23. I'd rate rough water ride+dry ride combo as follows (just because one is smooth, doesn't necessarily mean it's dry. I'm just judging the combo)
X23, huge gap, X30, G23, XStar, X25, LSV, G21. The LSV was def the worst ride, but the G21 was wet as heck with anything over a 5mph cross wind. g23 rides a little better than my X30 did, but still a much wetter ride in windy conditions. It's not the way I would guess the list would go, if I hadn't owned all of them. I run a lot of other boats regularly (SE, SAN 210, 15 LSV, SA, and a 13 G23) but I won't bother critiquing them, without owning them. |
Interesting. Been reading about the spray issue on the G's but not sure if that applies to the G25? You have owned a ton of boats! This will just be my 5th.
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Have you ever been behind the wheel of one at cruising speed blowing through chop? While they may lol low profile sitting in the water , I can assure you when you’re cruising their ride angle is exceptional and you stay dry as can be |
An X55 comes to mind. I f I am not mistaken that was one of MC’s deeper v hull boats. It was designed with more cruising. and lounging in mind. Easily had for 100k
The X80 also fits the bill |
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That said, they are essentially the lowest freeboard wake boat you can buy, and the main question in this thread was asking for a recommended boat for a large crew and wakesurfing on a huge lake...... Are you really going to say that a Sanger would be good recommendation for the OP to buy, and then have him head out on LOTO and load it up with 3-4K of ballast and 15 people?? Hull design means absolutely nothing when you are sitting still........ in a ridiculously overweighted and crowded boat, that is sunk just about to the rubrail in the back, on a lake that regularly kicks up huge wind chop?? |
the've added a couple inches of freeboard for '18.
If you plan to sit still on a big lake like LOTO, you're gonna be f'd anyway. I knew it wouldn't be popular suggestion, but one worth mentioning. it's easy to sit behind your keyboard and say its a crazy, but until you've been in one on a rough day, you really don't understand. I somehow pissed off a guy in a loaded malibu one day. he drove a fairly tight circle at 12 mph about 50 yards off the bow intentionally throwing a massive building roller at our bow -- my boat had 500 lbs of lead under bow seats, belly bag full and a 750 on top of belly. boat stayed dry. If you need something that will stay dry while anchored in a busy area of the lake, you really need to buy a pontoon. No wakeboat is a good one. especially with weight and 15 ppl on board. |
Summary: everyone will fight to the death to defend the boat they dropped cash on. LOL!
That being said, my Supra SE is the best boat in the universe. FTW! |
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Once again, never said the Sanger doesn't ride good on chop. And I said absolutely nothing about being anchored in a busy part of the lake.
The OP requested suggestions for a large surf boat, for a crew of 10-15 people, and lots of freeboard, and that he feels unsafe in his 23 LSV because of the height of the rollers at low speed.......... and then you suggested the lowest freeboard wake boat built, with the smallest interior for the size range he is looking for. If you don't see the irony in that, I will definitely sit here behind my keyboard and say it's crazy. Hull shape does absolutely nothing for huge rollers when you are at rest, or low speed. Only freeboard helps you there, and yes, the boats with a 12-18" more freeboard than a Sanger, are going to be safer in those conditions. It doesn't matter how good that Sanger cuts the chop at speed. Unless, Sanger has some kind of magical, invisible, freeboard extender, that makes it repel waves well above its measurable freeboard height. |
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It's like starting a thread and being like- "I have a F150 now, but I pull a 15,000lb trailer on a regular basis, and I don't feel safe with that kind of load behind me. Thinking about upgrading to a super duty diesel, or something similar........" And then somebody jumps on and says "Chevy Colorado all the way. It's got lower profile tires so it doesn't sway as much. I have been over pikes peak with mine, pulling 20k lbs and it handled it so well!!" |
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I understand what you're saying, how could it possibly be good on a big rough lake?? Probably never seen one, other than pics on WW. If you get the opportunity, drive one! It's pretty magical. |
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I'd go the new 26' wt-4.
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Problem solved. If this is still available. Best part if you don't like it, sell for 120 next summer.
https://www.onlyinboards.com/2017-Ce...ota-70361.aspx |
I would jump all over that Ri257 right now!!!!
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I don’t think anyone is going to be sitting still in the main lake dropping anchor on a weekend. They’ll be heading to one of the many coves to hide and anchor in. This argument is not even worth exploring because it’s akmost a non issue. Ok so now we will argue that what happens when he picks up a downed rider ......well if he’s surfing in 4ft’rs he needs his head examined anyways. You have your opinion I have my experience in the Sanger on a similar lake. It’s rock solid. He’s not gonna find a Sanger dealer around LOTO anyways. He will find a Centurion , MC , MB, and Tige dealer which all have offerings |
+1 for the Supra SE. Pretty much a 25' boat, top notch rough water ride and obviously a killer surf wave.
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You and Nacho don't seem to understand that the Sanger has the lowest freeboard of any surf boat made right now, and that they don't even make a model big enough for 15 people....... and you are arguing the heck out of it, when it doesn't even come close to meeting his requirements for what he is looking for..... We get it, Sanger is awesome, it defies physics, and can take on any big lake waves you can throw at it..... sitting still, at low speed, at high speed, and at warp speed. But with zero models having any kind of significant freeboard, or even the space and capacity rating to carry the crew that the OP has on board..... what the heck is the point. Like a dog with a frisbee. |
I use to live off Lake Erie in Pennsylvania and it was common to get caught out on the lake in 3 foot rollers. The lake could go from flat to 5-6 footers in a hour or two. I would not do 30mph but 23-26 was common to get home. Any thing less and you were in danger of taking it over the front.
My 05 Centurion Enzo handled the lake like a beast (well a beast for a inboard). I have been out in 5-6 footer and it was scary but got everyone home safe and relativly dry. |
Yeah... I'm just going to go ahead and point out that Ri257 on Onlyinboards is like the deal of the century. I'd jump all over that in a heartbeat.
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Really!? 108K for a centurion is a good deal?
I have a 2017 25LSV with 120hrs for $105K. |
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That's not to say it is perfect or doesn't have idiosyncrasies, but for a big lake, big crew, nothing else is close. |
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As pointed out by other WW members, the deep V hull found on Centurion doesn't make them ride better than the holy grail Supra lineup Asking for a friend.... |
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Also judging by volume is BAD. LSV is built in 4 days, RI takes WEEKS, the difference in quality is noticeably different. The focus in Merced is quality, not quantity. That said 257 build slots sold out EARLY for the 2017's Supra's are great, a person could be VERY happy in a Supra! |
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The Ri257 is indeed a MASSIVE boat. Definitely feels bigger than a 25LSV.
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I wish the dealer support for Centurion was better here in the Southeast. Would definitely love to have a Ri257.
For now I'll just have to stick with my gold standard SE. Its rough water ride is akin to floating through the clouds of heaven :D |
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Hmm, not ours. |
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That said, their dealer network is getting MUCH better. Also, any dealer that sells Nautique or Supreme can do engine warranty through PCM which is helpful. PCM also has other authorized service centers that can do warranty that are not tournament boat dealers. You have to be aware of how knowledgeable and reliable they are but that is something that will help. I would imagine that the dealer situation in the southeast for Centurion will look very different in the next couple years if they keep churning out product like the Ri and Fi series that they have been releasing. To the point of sales, here in Utah the Ri257 has outsold the 25 LSV, Supra SE and X26 this year. From the numbers we have seen thus far it is tied with the G25 for sales. It is also year one for this boat and people have to get out in it to experience what it is really like. If you have the opportunity to hop in one I strongly recommend it. |
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There isn't a Nautique dealer at all in Louisiana, but the closest dealer in Alabama carries Nautique, Supreme and Centurion.
I don't see why a Nautique dealer couldn't get a Centurion or order one given their alliance. Centurion is a very rare boat in my neck of the woods, heck most inboards are rare. |
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Rough Water, Surf, Large Crew Boat
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Uhhh no, you can re-read my posts if you find some time! I simply said the SE rides a lot better than anyone cares to give credit for. And yes the boat is great, definitely nicer than I deserve and more than I ever thought I would own. Absolutely love it. Soooo, there’s that? But thanks for the shout! And it sure appears that most if not all Nautique dealers don’t sell Centurions at the current time, anyway. |
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