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Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-24-2017, 1:07 PM Reply   
Finally in the market for an upgrade from our 08 23lsv. It is an awesome boat and really my only complaints are it is limited to 14 ppl and is totally overmatched in rough water. I get that none of the true wake/surf boats are going to match a ski boat or larger boat but looking for the best of the bunch.

We spend a lot of time on Lake of the Ozarks in the summer and the main channel there is just nuts. My budget is 100k. That puts me in G territory (used). But curious if anyone has other boat suggestions or feedback on the G's real rough water ride?

We surf primarily but still take wake sets. Regular crew size of 10-15.

Thanks!
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       10-24-2017, 1:57 PM Reply   
LOTO? You need something like Miller Time only in direct drive form with tow in jet skis so you don't have to keep stopping.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-24-2017, 2:14 PM Reply   
G25? would almost have to be for your crew
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-24-2017, 3:04 PM Reply   
Centurion Ri257
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       10-24-2017, 3:08 PM Reply   
14 people is going to be a lot on most any boat. The big Ri is probably a good option but doubt you could get one for $100k. MB F24?
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-24-2017, 3:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
Centurion Ri257
yes.

maybe a 247 since they've been out a bit longer

wow g25 for 100.. awesome colors IMO
https://www.onlyinboards.com/2014-Na...ork-71441.aspx

Last edited by denverd1; 10-24-2017 at 3:21 PM.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-24-2017, 3:24 PM Reply   
I've been on an 25LSV with 17 people. It's tight, but that boat is a limousine! You can probably find one for maybe 105-110k
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-24-2017, 3:33 PM Reply   
Supra SE is great. Massive and dry. I boat Okoboji IA which is a smaller LOTO situation with boats waaay too large for any sanity. I had an F24 Tomcat before, which was good. This boat is SO DRY. It’s impressive. The Tomcat was excellent, but this is markedly better.

Surf wave is silly good, wake is also top 10%.

Bought my new 16 for 95K several months ago.
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-24-2017, 7:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
LOTO? You need something like Miller Time only in direct drive form with tow in jet skis so you don't have to keep stopping.
LOL, The size of boats on LOTO is just insane. Ideally I would have a 40 foot cruiser then keep the lsv for our cove.
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-24-2017, 7:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Supra SE is great. Massive and dry. I boat Okoboji IA which is a smaller LOTO situation with boats waaay too large for any sanity. I had an F24 Tomcat before, which was good. This boat is SO DRY. It’s impressive. The Tomcat was excellent, but this is markedly better.

Surf wave is silly good, wake is also top 10%.

Bought my new 16 for 95K several months ago.
Hadn't thought about the SE. The rough water ride requirement is a new one. I don't mind wrestling the waves but running with some older family members from time to time that could throw out a back on a cruiser roller lol.
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-24-2017, 7:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
I've been on an 25LSV with 17 people. It's tight, but that boat is a limousine! You can probably find one for maybe 105-110k
I have been off the forums for so long, didn't even realize there was a 25lsv.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-25-2017, 6:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0klahoma_Breakdown View Post
I have been off the forums for so long, didn't even realize there was a 25lsv.
One of the best performing boats I've been on. Wake is huge and it surfs great. 450 with the 17" prop setup is super solid.
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       10-25-2017, 7:21 AM Reply   
Rough water ride comfort, goes to Centurion for sure...cuts thru chop like butter with the deep V hull. RI257 also has the biggest surf wave in the industry right now and its a large boat. 2017 is first year....so gonna be tough to get one in your 100k budget. Would be worth it for sure tho.
Used there are lots of options and you can find an RI237 pretty easy. In 2016 and under....the FS44 and SV244 are excellent boats and very roomy.

The G's and Supra's are also very nice boats. Lots of great stuff out there in your budget.
Old    Red Dog (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       10-25-2017, 7:35 AM Reply   
Omg why would you want so many people in a boat. Lol
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-25-2017, 8:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddog78 View Post
Omg why would you want so many people in a boat. Lol
Haha, agreed. Hard to shake off all the family. when we are at LOTO we have a vacation home there. Anyone hears we are headed that way all of a sudden has free time in their schedule. I dont mind all the people when we start surfing though, great ballast!
Old    Mitch Mann (BoardCo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-25-2017, 9:01 AM Reply   
If rough water ride is a big concern I would highly recommend test driving boats and especially testing out a Centurion FS44 / Ri237. As mentioned previously a Ri257 would be amazing but probably out of the budget. The new Fi23 would definitely be worth taking a look at as well. Other boats (G23, Supra, etc.) that people have mentioned are great boats that will surf well and ride through chop similar or better than your LSV, but won't deliver nearly the same ride as the Centurion. If rough water ride is a big factor I would definitely get out on the boats and test drive them before making a decision.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-25-2017, 9:53 AM Reply   
I had an F24 before my SE—a very deep V like a Centurion. I thought the ride quality on the new Supra would be quite a bit worse then the MB. It really is not that big of a difference, shockingly. And the Supra is 100% dry, which the MB was not. That for me (dryness) has really been a meaningful improvement in rough water capability. Because when the rollers are huge, no one is going over 15 to 19 mph anyway. And in that zone a big old Supra rides great.

I know it stands to reason that it deep V shaped hull will ride better, but there are other factors at play to improve rough water performance. I discovered that first hand.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       10-25-2017, 10:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0klahoma_Breakdown View Post
LOL, The size of boats on LOTO is just insane. Ideally I would have a 40 foot cruiser then keep the lsv for our cove.
Easy to be a big fish in a small pond. Apparently all those guys can afford million dollar boats but not a plane ticket to Florida.
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-25-2017, 11:04 AM Reply   
If rough water ride it what you are looking for, you don't even need to waste your time looking at Malibu, G23/CC, and Supra. All of these boat have a very flat hull in the rear which will equate to getting beat up in the rough water. For rough water the deeper the V, the better the boat will cut through the water. Also, the weight and construction of the boat will play into this as well. You will also want a lot of freeboard when in the rough water with a larger crew.

Like you, rough water ride is a big deal for me as well and I ended up with an X23 over the G for this exact reason. The X23 rides great in rough water for an inboard. The MC X23, X46 and X26 will be the boat in there lineup that offer a more V shaped hull toward the rear and fit your crew.

Others to consider would be Centurion and MB as they have very good V hulls that extend the length of the boat.

Last edited by davez71; 10-25-2017 at 11:07 AM.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-25-2017, 11:23 AM Reply   
I own an MC but if I was looking surf and rough water I would take a serious look at Tige.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-25-2017, 11:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Easy to be a big fish in a small pond. Apparently all those guys can afford million dollar boats but not a plane ticket to Florida.


Or, well, they live in Missouri? LOTO is hardly small. 92 miles long, 54,000 acres.

But the boats are too big, yes!
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-25-2017, 12:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
If rough water ride it what you are looking for, you don't even need to waste your time looking at Malibu, G23/CC, and Supra. All of these boat have a very flat hull in the rear which will equate to getting beat up in the rough water. For rough water the deeper the V, the better the boat will cut through the water. Also, the weight and construction of the boat will play into this as well. You will also want a lot of freeboard when in the rough water with a larger crew.



Like you, rough water ride is a big deal for me as well and I ended up with an X23 over the G for this exact reason. The X23 rides great in rough water for an inboard. The MC X23, X46 and X26 will be the boat in there lineup that offer a more V shaped hull toward the rear and fit your crew.



Others to consider would be Centurion and MB as they have very good V hulls that extend the length of the boat.


Your reasoning is a little flawed. I went from MB to Supra on a very rough lake, and it doesn’t play out like you describe. Transom dead rise is one factor in rough water, and people always hastily equate flat transom to poor ride. Not entirely true on today’s deep boats. True in the old ski boats, yes. Just forward from my Supra SE flat transom hull a pronounced V begins and increases as you go forward. Huge chines prevent spray. It all comes together to ride very well. Nearly as good as my MB F24 did, and COMPLETELY DRY. Even in strong crosswind for rearmost passengers. The splashing from hitting rollers is all out and down. It’s very impressive.

Other huge factor is nose height. When idling in rollers, the 2 MC X23s I have been in splashed water up over the low nose regularly. With bow passengers it got worse. For that reason the X23 was “out” as a choice on my lake. Even if it rides well on plane, the low speed splashing was too much. And for $50K more.

Centurion may indeed hit all bullet points. I haven’t been on a newer one. But be careful making the generalization that flat transom equals poor ride. It’s more complex than it was in 1997. These huge 6000# wake boats do very well despite the dreaded “flat transom.”
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-25-2017, 12:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tampawake View Post
I own an MC but if I was looking surf and rough water I would take a serious look at Tige.


The new Tige RZX boats splash water over the nose quite a lot. That would be the biggest hesitation with new picklefork Tige models.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       10-25-2017, 12:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Or, well, they live in Missouri? LOTO is hardly small. 92 miles long, 54,000 acres.

But the boats are too big, yes!
Its small compared to the Atlantic. We have a house on Table Rock for that specific reason. There is no reason people need to have 70ft boats on it. Its becoming a problem that the state is going to get involved with before too long.
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-25-2017, 12:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Your reasoning is a little flawed. I went from MB to Supra on a very rough lake, and it doesn’t play out like you describe. Transom dead rise is one factor in rough water, and people always hastily equate flat transom to poor ride. Not entirely true on today’s deep boats. True in the old ski boats, yes. Just forward from my Supra SE flat transom hull a pronounced V begins and increases as you go forward. Huge chines prevent spray. It all comes together to ride very well. Nearly as good as my MB F24 did, and COMPLETELY DRY. Even in strong crosswind for rearmost passengers. The splashing from hitting rollers is all out and down. It’s very impressive.

Other huge factor is nose height. When idling in rollers, the 2 MC X23s I have been in splashed water up over the low nose regularly. With bow passengers it got worse. For that reason the X23 was “out” as a choice on my lake. Even if it rides well on plane, the low speed splashing was too much. And for $50K more.

Centurion may indeed hit all bullet points. I haven’t been on a newer one. But be careful making the generalization that flat transom equals poor ride. It’s more complex than it was in 1997. These huge 6000# wake boats do very well despite the dreaded “flat transom.”
There are so many factors that make a boat ride better in rough water. Yet, there is a reason why EVERY single offshore boat has a deep V which is extends through out the length of the hull. You don't see these boat with a flat hull in the stern. My center console used for fishing has a 22 degree deadrise and it cuts through the water like its nothing.

Weight is a contributor to the rough water ride as I mentioned in my previous post, but that's only a small piece of the puzzle. But when you are driving a boat in rough water and going 20 mph, the majority of the hull is out of the water, leaving the stern to take the impact, in your case, a flat hull... Sure you can use a trim tab and put the nose of the boat down, but that's not

Having put 300 hrs. on my X23, crossing a few bays to get to the harbor for the restaurants, I haven't experienced the spray that you talk about and I can say that I don't take water over the front of my boat. Most good drivers can avoid this.

This pronounced V that you describe for a Supra, begins before the tracking fins, which when planning and/or cruising wont be in the water much. My neighbor has an Supra SA, its a very nice boat but you can tell a big difference in the ride quality when in rough water or crossing rollers. Its enough of a difference that my wife who knows absolutely nothing about boats, made a comment about it. Even my neighbor will say that his boat isn't great in rough water. The SA doesn't weight that much less than an SE either.

I have no need to be careful about my generalization of a flat hull, its the truth. Inboards aren't designed to be offshore boats and the benefits of a flat hull help produce a great wakeboard wake, but do not help with rough water ride. Maybe your boat doesn't have as much spray as some, but it still wont ride like the deeper V boats when cruising. My generalization comes from years of experience fishing offshore/inshore.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-25-2017, 2:20 PM Reply   
It sounds like you, my friend, are the worlds foremost authority on hulls and I redact any and all of my statements including my real world experiences with my SE and my friends X23. Furthermore, I will enroll them and myself in boat driving classes ASAP to alleviate this splashing problem we have experienced in the X23. You’re right, it has everything to do with the driving and nothing to do with the dipped nose that sits 1’ off the water. I am sure there is some way to steer out of rollers from every direction. We weren’t “taking water” over the nose, it was splashing and blowing back in. And its at idle, not on plane as—which I mentioned. Sometimes we idle along—it pleasant! On plane it was just fine and rode like a champ.

You started your by saying “don’t waste your time looking at Malibu, G23/CC and Supra” which I am out to refute—especially the Supra part since I have experience there. The ride in my SE is quite good, especially since it has a flat transom deadrise. Not a waste of time by any means, especially comparing to the vaunted X23 which you are offering as a gold standard.

All I know is the SE does great, about the same as my F24, which is a very deep V boat. And the lake is rough as hell. I was surprised as well, as I previously thought deep v was the only way to get an acceptable ride in rollers. Maybe it’s a freak of nature?

Last edited by dakota4ce; 10-25-2017 at 2:26 PM.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-25-2017, 2:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
Its small compared to the Atlantic. We have a house on Table Rock for that specific reason. There is no reason people need to have 70ft boats on it. Its becoming a problem that the state is going to get involved with before too long.


Oh I agree. It’s out of hand. We have a few 40’ boats on our small lake and it’s way way overkill. It’s a wallet contest.
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-25-2017, 3:35 PM Reply   
Another vote for Centurion. I too came from a newer Malibu. There is really no comparison in ride/wave/quality. The deep V of the Centurion provides a much smoother ride.
The surf wave is night and day different. Demo an RI and you will be amazed at the difference. The wave is firmer, and you have so much adjustability, you can create any shape you want.
One additional benefit expecially on large lakes where water can turn crappy REALLY fast. The Ram fill ballast allows you to fill/drain litterally over a ton of weight in seconds vs minutes. So even going to the next cove just a couple miles up. Drain/cruise/refill....NO other manufacturer is as efficient in this area.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-25-2017, 3:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
It sounds like you, my friend, are the worlds foremost authority on hulls and I redact any and all of my statements including my real world experiences with my SE and my friends X23. Furthermore, I will enroll them and myself in boat driving classes ASAP to alleviate this splashing problem we have experienced in the X23. You’re right, it has everything to do with the driving and nothing to do with the dipped nose that sits 1’ off the water. I am sure there is some way to steer out of rollers from every direction. We weren’t “taking water” over the nose, it was splashing and blowing back in. And its at idle, not on plane as—which I mentioned. Sometimes we idle along—it pleasant! On plane it was just fine and rode like a champ.

You started your by saying “don’t waste your time looking at Malibu, G23/CC and Supra” which I am out to refute—especially the Supra part since I have experience there. The ride in my SE is quite good, especially since it has a flat transom deadrise. Not a waste of time by any means, especially comparing to the vaunted X23 which you are offering as a gold standard.

All I know is the SE does great, about the same as my F24, which is a very deep V boat. And the lake is rough as hell. I was surprised as well, as I previously thought deep v was the only way to get an acceptable ride in rollers. Maybe it’s a freak of nature?
I'd seriously like to know more about this X23 bow splashing you claim?? I owned one before my G, and if there is one thing that I can say about an X23 compared to the dozens of other wakeboats I have owned and operated, was that it ABSOLUTELY had the smoothest and driest ride of any that I have experienced. (I have not run a Ri257, and I'm guessing that might be even better, because of the deep v, heft, and length.)

Nonetheless, I ran 300lbs of lead in the bow of X23, and still had exactly 0 splashes over the bow. I definitely can't say the same for my G, and I don't have any lead in the nose of that. The rough water ride of the G, Any Malibu, and anything in the Supra line, is considerably worse than a X23.

Now, the flatter bottom hulls in the G, SE, 23 LSV, etc., have their own list of advantages over the deep v boats (better wakeboard wake, less weight sensitive side to side, etc), but none of them have an exceptional rough water ride. If you want an exceptional rough water ride, you gotta look to MB, Centurion, or the deep v MC's (X23, and X26). The XT MC's have shallow V's and don't have the rough water ride advantage. You sure your buddy doesn't have an XT23???
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-25-2017, 4:16 PM Reply   
I am sure. Must have been a crappy windy day. But it was real. Perfect storm I guess? Maybe he had bow filled and no rear or something. It sat low and low. Again, it had nothing to do with rough ride or the VHull, it was the low nose in huge rollers at idle speeds. REPEAT: not disputing that the ride is good and the V is good. Perhaps I need to revisit it regarding the splashing over the droopy bow. I would not buy one anyway, but if it’s dry I need to experience it and stop calling it wet.

I am telling you, my F24 rode very similar to my SE. So I don’t know what to make of that. I had a 2013 MB F24 one day, and literally had the 2016 SE450 the next. MB rides marginally smoother, and splashes rear seat passengers in windy conditions. The SE does not do that. And the rough water ride is FAR from terrible. I am defending the brand in that regard. It’s nothing as drastic as people are stating with the “flatter transom automatically means garbage in rough water.”

Maybe I just have an exceptional one.

And I agree, the Centurion likely hits all points.

Last edited by dakota4ce; 10-25-2017 at 4:25 PM.
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-25-2017, 10:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
I am sure. Must have been a crappy windy day. But it was real. Perfect storm I guess? Maybe he had bow filled and no rear or something. It sat low and low. Again, it had nothing to do with rough ride or the VHull, it was the low nose in huge rollers at idle speeds. REPEAT: not disputing that the ride is good and the V is good. Perhaps I need to revisit it regarding the splashing over the droopy bow. I would not buy one anyway, but if it’s dry I need to experience it and stop calling it wet.

I am telling you, my F24 rode very similar to my SE. So I don’t know what to make of that. I had a 2013 MB F24 one day, and literally had the 2016 SE450 the next. MB rides marginally smoother, and splashes rear seat passengers in windy conditions. The SE does not do that. And the rough water ride is FAR from terrible. I am defending the brand in that regard. It’s nothing as drastic as people are stating with the “flatter transom automatically means garbage in rough water.”

Maybe I just have an exceptional one.

And I agree, the Centurion likely hits all points.


Your MB F24 weights 4400lbs and the Supra Weights 5500 lbs.

So the MB weighted 1100 pounds less and rode just as good if not better that the Supra. Yes weight is a factor, but that deep V MB hull made up for the lack of weight. I'm sure the Supra is constructed with a stronger stringer system and core so that plays a huge role as well.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-26-2017, 6:17 AM Reply   
Okay? Whatever it weighs is what it weighs.....we are simply discussing does the boat ride pretty well? Yes, yes it does.

So now we are here? A flat transom deadrise boat like a Supra is terrible in rough water (don’t waste your time), unless it’s way heavier than the corresponding deep V boat (if you want good rough water ride check out the deep Vs like MB).

Lotsa qualifiers here. You’re kind of supporting my point—the big solid newer boats can do pretty well even if the have a flat transom. It’s because of weight, shape, etc etc etc.

The OP wants a massive boat that does well in rough water. I am simply saying don’t skip looking at an SE because the flat transom scares you. It actually does quite well (as you point out, because it’s heavy).
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-26-2017, 8:37 AM Reply   
Man, I started this discussion thinking the answer was a G. Now I need to go test the Ri257 and others for sure. The cheapest Ri looks to be about $115 right now so def over the budget but its possible by beginning of season others will pop up. I have always loved the relative simplicity of the MB's, just look small in the cockpit. The pricing though is definitely affordable.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-26-2017, 8:43 AM Reply   
The answer may be a G—make sure you try them all! That’s the point. Cockpit size varies quite a bit in the “large boats.”
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-26-2017, 10:32 AM Reply   
I have time, would prefer to sell the lsv first and havent even listed it yet. Going to be fun checking out all the different models.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-26-2017, 10:35 AM Reply   
If rough water ride is priority #1, then ya gotta drive a sanger. Dealer in Houston, found mine in Austin. They're rare in this area but I believe a short drive is more than worth it for the right boat. would come in well under your budget as well.

Not quite LOTO size, but I frequent a 26000 acre lake in my 230, it can get out of hand on windy days. has pronounced V from fins to transom.
Old    Aric Brabec (aricsx15)      Join Date: Jan 2014       10-26-2017, 10:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
If rough water ride is priority #1, then ya gotta drive a sanger. Dealer in Houston, found mine in Austin. They're rare in this area but I believe a short drive is more than worth it for the right boat. would come in well under your budget as well.

Not quite LOTO size, but I frequent a 26000 acre lake in my 230, it can get out of hand on windy days. has pronounced V from fins to transom.
Yeah, go buy the lowest freeboard boat on the market for LOTO?!
Old    Mitch Mann (BoardCo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-26-2017, 10:50 AM Reply   
Ok so there is something that needs to be addressed here when talking about rough water ride - it is important that everyone understands the difference between terms and what exactly someone means when they say "rough water ride" on a boat.

Dry ride = how easily people in the boat get splashed and / or water comes in over the bow when going through rollers

Rough water ride = how the boat will cruise at 25-35 mph in heavy wind chop / rollers from other boats

If you are only on a small lake and not cruising around then the rough water ride isn't a big deal but if you are driving for an hour each way to ride at Lake Powell through 3 foot chop it becomes a big factor. Dry ride is a factor regardless of the way you use your boat.

The angle of the V at the front of a boat matters at slow speed (under 20), however at higher speeds (20+) only the back half of the boat is in the water. Deep V isn't the only factor with rough water ride - how rigid the construction is (not the fit / finish but the actual fiberglass build) is also a major factor.

As I mentioned previously - go take them for a drive. We find that answers a lot of questions.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-26-2017, 11:56 AM Reply   
You guys drive 25-35 in 3’ rollers? GOOD LAAAAWD that would suck regardless which boat you buy, no?! That would rattle my dentures out.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-26-2017, 1:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
You guys drive 25-35 in 3’ rollers? GOOD LAAAAWD that would suck regardless which boat you buy, no?! That would rattle my dentures out.
Definitely not a fun thing to do in most inboards, but I think that might be the point of what the OP really wants... huge lake, that can get very rough. If you gotta go 20 miles to get back home, would you want to be stuck at 10mph to handle the 3' chop? This is where a steep deadrise at the transom makes a huge difference. Cruising at 25-35 on that kind of chop doesn't beat the crap out of you, or the boat. Most of us don't need that, on our smaller lakes. I can definitely see the advantage on LOTO. You can have some long rides ahead of you on that lake.....


On another note....... I'm still laughing about the Sanger suggestion from denverd1. Nothing against Sanger, but I believe the OP is really looking for more freeboard as well. Not less.
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-26-2017, 2:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
Definitely not a fun thing to do in most inboards, but I think that might be the point of what the OP really wants... huge lake, that can get very rough. If you gotta go 20 miles to get back home, would you want to be stuck at 10mph to handle the 3' chop? This is where a steep deadrise at the transom makes a huge difference. Cruising at 25-35 on that kind of chop doesn't beat the crap out of you, or the boat. Most of us don't need that, on our smaller lakes. I can definitely see the advantage on LOTO. You can have some long rides ahead of you on that lake.....


On another note....... I'm still laughing about the Sanger suggestion from denverd1. Nothing against Sanger, but I believe the OP is really looking for more freeboard as well. Not less.
Great point, I don't mind cruising at under 20 if needed. The bigger issue is safety. Never thought I would feel unsafe in a 23lsv...until LOTO. There are situations out there that if you need to cut the throttle and don't know what you are doing you will definitely take rollers.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect any boat under 30 feet on a lake like LOTO to be exceedingly comfortable in those conditions but I do want one I can be confident in with the large rollers. These newer larger boats with the higher freeboard like the G are the direction I think I need. Just need to figure out which one.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-26-2017, 2:36 PM Reply   
Just FYI, the steeper stem angle on the 16+ G23 did it absolutely no favors on taking water over the bow. The bow spray is definitely reduced (still worse than most), but I very frequently have a bit of water come in the bow when I am loaded. It's not really dipping the bow. It's just the steep stem angle makes it plow in the front, and water rises up at the nose and comes in. I wouldn't want my G in 3' water. I'm sure it would handle it fine, but I've definitely owned better boats for rough water ride and keeping water out of the bow. I've owned quite a few....... '10 LSV, '11 X25, '12 X25, '13 XStar, '14 X30, '14 G21, '15 X23, '16 G23, and '17 G23. I'd rate rough water ride+dry ride combo as follows (just because one is smooth, doesn't necessarily mean it's dry. I'm just judging the combo)

X23, huge gap, X30, G23, XStar, X25, LSV, G21. The LSV was def the worst ride, but the G21 was wet as heck with anything over a 5mph cross wind. g23 rides a little better than my X30 did, but still a much wetter ride in windy conditions.

It's not the way I would guess the list would go, if I hadn't owned all of them. I run a lot of other boats regularly (SE, SAN 210, 15 LSV, SA, and a 13 G23) but I won't bother critiquing them, without owning them.
Old    Brian Ferrell (0klahoma_Breakdown)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-26-2017, 6:03 PM Reply   
Interesting. Been reading about the spray issue on the G's but not sure if that applies to the G25? You have owned a ton of boats! This will just be my 5th.
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-26-2017, 7:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by aricsx15 View Post
Yeah, go buy the lowest freeboard boat on the market for LOTO?!
They no longer even offer the V210. The 215 and the 237 have plenty of freeboard to keep you dry and a hull to knife through chop. Spent plenty of time on both boats on Tahoe and never got hit with a spray of water . Just because they’re not as high as barge doesn’t mean you’re soaked
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-26-2017, 8:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0klahoma_Breakdown View Post
Interesting. Been reading about the spray issue on the G's but not sure if that applies to the G25? You have owned a ton of boats! This will just be my 5th.
Applies mostly to all year G21s, and 2013-2015 G23 and G25. They changed the stem angle and added spray chines to the G23 and G25 in 2016. They help, but it is definitely still one of the wetter riding inboards out there. Never bothers me in the summer, but spring and fall riding can be a bit chilly......
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-26-2017, 8:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post

On another note....... I'm still laughing about the Sanger suggestion from denverd1. Nothing against Sanger, but I believe the OP is really looking for more freeboard as well. Not less.

Have you ever been behind the wheel of one at cruising speed blowing through chop? While they may lol low profile sitting in the water , I can assure you when you’re cruising their ride angle is exceptional and you stay dry as can be
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-26-2017, 11:50 PM Reply   
An X55 comes to mind. I f I am not mistaken that was one of MC’s deeper v hull boats. It was designed with more cruising. and lounging in mind. Easily had for 100k


The X80 also fits the bill

Last edited by xstarrider; 10-26-2017 at 11:52 PM.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-27-2017, 5:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
Have you ever been behind the wheel of one at cruising speed blowing through chop? While they may lol low profile sitting in the water , I can assure you when you’re cruising their ride angle is exceptional and you stay dry as can be
Did I say anything about how it rides in chop?? I only commented on the freeboard. I realize they have a steep deadrise from tip to tail, and that they slice through the chop pretty well.

That said, they are essentially the lowest freeboard wake boat you can buy, and the main question in this thread was asking for a recommended boat for a large crew and wakesurfing on a huge lake......

Are you really going to say that a Sanger would be good recommendation for the OP to buy, and then have him head out on LOTO and load it up with 3-4K of ballast and 15 people??

Hull design means absolutely nothing when you are sitting still........ in a ridiculously overweighted and crowded boat, that is sunk just about to the rubrail in the back, on a lake that regularly kicks up huge wind chop??
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-27-2017, 6:55 AM Reply   
the've added a couple inches of freeboard for '18.

If you plan to sit still on a big lake like LOTO, you're gonna be f'd anyway. I knew it wouldn't be popular suggestion, but one worth mentioning. it's easy to sit behind your keyboard and say its a crazy, but until you've been in one on a rough day, you really don't understand.

I somehow pissed off a guy in a loaded malibu one day. he drove a fairly tight circle at 12 mph about 50 yards off the bow intentionally throwing a massive building roller at our bow -- my boat had 500 lbs of lead under bow seats, belly bag full and a 750 on top of belly. boat stayed dry.

If you need something that will stay dry while anchored in a busy area of the lake, you really need to buy a pontoon. No wakeboat is a good one. especially with weight and 15 ppl on board.

Last edited by denverd1; 10-27-2017 at 7:05 AM.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-27-2017, 7:12 AM Reply   
Summary: everyone will fight to the death to defend the boat they dropped cash on. LOL!

That being said, my Supra SE is the best boat in the universe. FTW!
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-27-2017, 7:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Summary: everyone will fight to the death to defend the boat they dropped cash on. LOL!

That being said, my Supra SE is the best boat in the universe. FTW!
really don't care what OP buys. just offering my experience with a damn good rough water boat.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-27-2017, 7:21 AM Reply   
Once again, never said the Sanger doesn't ride good on chop. And I said absolutely nothing about being anchored in a busy part of the lake.

The OP requested suggestions for a large surf boat, for a crew of 10-15 people, and lots of freeboard, and that he feels unsafe in his 23 LSV because of the height of the rollers at low speed.......... and then you suggested the lowest freeboard wake boat built, with the smallest interior for the size range he is looking for. If you don't see the irony in that, I will definitely sit here behind my keyboard and say it's crazy.

Hull shape does absolutely nothing for huge rollers when you are at rest, or low speed. Only freeboard helps you there, and yes, the boats with a 12-18" more freeboard than a Sanger, are going to be safer in those conditions. It doesn't matter how good that Sanger cuts the chop at speed.

Unless, Sanger has some kind of magical, invisible, freeboard extender, that makes it repel waves well above its measurable freeboard height.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-27-2017, 7:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Summary: everyone will fight to the death to defend the boat they dropped cash on. LOL!

That being said, my Supra SE is the best boat in the universe. FTW!
This......


It's like starting a thread and being like- "I have a F150 now, but I pull a 15,000lb trailer on a regular basis, and I don't feel safe with that kind of load behind me. Thinking about upgrading to a super duty diesel, or something similar........"

And then somebody jumps on and says "Chevy Colorado all the way. It's got lower profile tires so it doesn't sway as much. I have been over pikes peak with mine, pulling 20k lbs and it handled it so well!!"
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-27-2017, 7:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
Once again, never said the Sanger doesn't ride good on chop. And I said absolutely nothing about being anchored in a busy part of the lake.
then what the hell are we talking about here?? not at speed, not anchored. Idling around in big rollers with a weighted boat and 10 on board isn't a very good idea at all.

I understand what you're saying, how could it possibly be good on a big rough lake?? Probably never seen one, other than pics on WW. If you get the opportunity, drive one! It's pretty magical.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-27-2017, 7:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
This......


It's like starting a thread and being like- "I have a F150 now, but I pull a 15,000lb trailer on a regular basis, and I don't feel safe with that kind of load behind me. Thinking about upgrading to a super duty diesel, or something similar........"

And then somebody jumps on and says "Chevy Colorado all the way. It's got lower profile tires so it doesn't sway as much. I have been over pikes peak with mine, pulling 20k lbs and it handled it so well!!"
HAHA!! not quite, but that's funny.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       10-27-2017, 7:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
Hull shape does absolutely nothing for huge rollers when you are at rest, or low speed. Only freeboard helps you there, and yes, the boats with a 12-18" more freeboard than a Sanger, are going to be safer in those conditions. It doesn't matter how good that Sanger cuts the chop at speed.
incorrect. that's like saying a flat bottom 16' aluminum boat will handle the same as a deep v 23' when a significant roller comes your way.
Old    Red Dog (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       10-27-2017, 8:05 AM Reply   
I'd go the new 26' wt-4.
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-27-2017, 8:12 AM Reply   
Problem solved. If this is still available. Best part if you don't like it, sell for 120 next summer.
https://www.onlyinboards.com/2017-Ce...ota-70361.aspx
Old    Ian Brown (onlyinboards)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-27-2017, 8:43 AM Reply   
I would jump all over that Ri257 right now!!!!
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       10-27-2017, 10:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
Did I say anything about how it rides in chop?? I only commented on the freeboard. I realize they have a steep deadrise from tip to tail, and that they slice through the chop pretty well.

That said, they are essentially the lowest freeboard wake boat you can buy, and the main question in this thread was asking for a recommended boat for a large crew and wakesurfing on a huge lake......

Are you really going to say that a Sanger would be good recommendation for the OP to buy, and then have him head out on LOTO and load it up with 3-4K of ballast and 15 people??

Hull design means absolutely nothing when you are sitting still........ in a ridiculously overweighted and crowded boat, that is sunk just about to the rubrail in the back, on a lake that regularly kicks up huge wind chop??
Say what you will. My experience loaded up with 8-10 adults im a Sanger on Tahoe rivals any other barge style boat I’ve been in. Never once felt unsafe , took water over the side , or was worried about going down. I spend time on LOTO. I took my Centurions , my 205v , and my 210 multiple occasions. Never one felt unsafe on them either. Only oce did I ever take water over the bow , and that was on my OG star , that was due to driver error on my part . Did I get the living hell beat out of me coming back from from party cove to the Horny Toad , depends on what your definition of that is.........just took it slow and worked the throttle .it wasn’t a fun haul home .

I don’t think anyone is going to be sitting still in the main lake dropping anchor on a weekend. They’ll be heading to one of the many coves to hide and anchor in. This argument is not even worth exploring because it’s akmost a non issue. Ok so now we will argue that what happens when he picks up a downed rider ......well if he’s surfing in 4ft’rs he needs his head examined anyways.

You have your opinion I have my experience in the Sanger on a similar lake. It’s rock solid. He’s not gonna find a Sanger dealer around LOTO anyways. He will find a Centurion , MC , MB, and Tige dealer which all have offerings
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       10-27-2017, 12:55 PM Reply   
+1 for the Supra SE. Pretty much a 25' boat, top notch rough water ride and obviously a killer surf wave.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-27-2017, 1:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
Say what you will. My experience loaded up with 8-10 adults im a Sanger on Tahoe rivals any other barge style boat I’ve been in. Never once felt unsafe , took water over the side , or was worried about going down. I spend time on LOTO. I took my Centurions , my 205v , and my 210 multiple occasions. Never one felt unsafe on them either. Only oce did I ever take water over the bow , and that was on my OG star , that was due to driver error on my part . Did I get the living hell beat out of me coming back from from party cove to the Horny Toad , depends on what your definition of that is.........just took it slow and worked the throttle .it wasn’t a fun haul home .

I don’t think anyone is going to be sitting still in the main lake dropping anchor on a weekend. They’ll be heading to one of the many coves to hide and anchor in. This argument is not even worth exploring because it’s akmost a non issue. Ok so now we will argue that what happens when he picks up a downed rider ......well if he’s surfing in 4ft’rs he needs his head examined anyways.

You have your opinion I have my experience in the Sanger on a similar lake. It’s rock solid. He’s not gonna find a Sanger dealer around LOTO anyways. He will find a Centurion , MC , MB, and Tige dealer which all have offerings
Ok, well......... you just wasted your time writing that post, trying to argue points that are not relevant in the thread. I'm happy that you have such great luck in big water with all the boats you have had, and that Sanger makes a great boat for cutting through chop.....but this thread was started by somebody that is looking for more freeboard than his LSV, more room than his LSV, space for 15 people, and a good ride in chop.

You and Nacho don't seem to understand that the Sanger has the lowest freeboard of any surf boat made right now, and that they don't even make a model big enough for 15 people....... and you are arguing the heck out of it, when it doesn't even come close to meeting his requirements for what he is looking for.....

We get it, Sanger is awesome, it defies physics, and can take on any big lake waves you can throw at it..... sitting still, at low speed, at high speed, and at warp speed. But with zero models having any kind of significant freeboard, or even the space and capacity rating to carry the crew that the OP has on board..... what the heck is the point.

Like a dog with a frisbee.
Old    Nailem (nailem)      Join Date: Apr 2011       10-27-2017, 4:49 PM Reply   
I use to live off Lake Erie in Pennsylvania and it was common to get caught out on the lake in 3 foot rollers. The lake could go from flat to 5-6 footers in a hour or two. I would not do 30mph but 23-26 was common to get home. Any thing less and you were in danger of taking it over the front.
My 05 Centurion Enzo handled the lake like a beast (well a beast for a inboard). I have been out in 5-6 footer and it was scary but got everyone home safe and relativly dry.
Old    Mitch Mann (BoardCo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-30-2017, 9:20 AM Reply   
Yeah... I'm just going to go ahead and point out that Ri257 on Onlyinboards is like the deal of the century. I'd jump all over that in a heartbeat.
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-30-2017, 9:29 AM Reply   
Really!? 108K for a centurion is a good deal?

I have a 2017 25LSV with 120hrs for $105K.
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-30-2017, 9:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
Really!? 108K for a centurion is a good deal?

I have a 2017 25LSV with 120hrs for $105K.
Yes, yes it is a screaming deal at 108K, it should be in the 120's! No offense but a 25LSV is not in the same league. There is no other inboard that can compete with the 257 on surfwave, dry ride, or smoothness of ride. The Ri257 is the gold standard right now.

That's not to say it is perfect or doesn't have idiosyncrasies, but for a big lake, big crew, nothing else is close.
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-30-2017, 3:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
Yes, yes it is a screaming deal at 108K, it should be in the 120's! No offense but a 25LSV is not in the same league. There is no other inboard that can compete with the 257 on surfwave, dry ride, or smoothness of ride. The Ri257 is the gold standard right now.

That's not to say it is perfect or doesn't have idiosyncrasies, but for a big lake, big crew, nothing else is close.
If this boat is the gold standard, then does that mean that it will/is out selling the G25, X26, and LSV25?

As pointed out by other WW members, the deep V hull found on Centurion doesn't make them ride better than the holy grail Supra lineup

Asking for a friend....
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-30-2017, 4:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
If this boat is the gold standard, then does that mean that it will/is out selling the G25, X26, and LSV25?

As pointed out by other WW members, the deep V hull found on Centurion doesn't make them ride better than the holy grail Supra lineup

Asking for a friend....
Probably not due to weak dealer support on east coast. West coast likely outselling X26 and G25. 25LSV is a different beast, as there are soo many people with Malibu goggles, they simply will not try anything else.

Also judging by volume is BAD. LSV is built in 4 days, RI takes WEEKS, the difference in quality is noticeably different. The focus in Merced is quality, not quantity. That said 257 build slots sold out EARLY for the 2017's

Supra's are great, a person could be VERY happy in a Supra!
Old    Nailem (nailem)      Join Date: Apr 2011       10-30-2017, 6:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
If this boat is the gold standard, then does that mean that it will/is out selling the G25, X26, and LSV25?

As pointed out by other WW members, the deep V hull found on Centurion doesn't make them ride better than the holy grail Supra lineup

Asking for a friend....
Because A brand sells more has no bearing on if it is better or not. Most people that purchase most things are ignorant. They go with brand revongnision and do little to no research on finding out what will work best for their needs. It's like saying a Kowasaki is better than an Aprilia because Kawasaki sells more bikes.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       10-30-2017, 6:55 PM Reply   
The Ri257 is indeed a MASSIVE boat. Definitely feels bigger than a 25LSV.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       10-31-2017, 4:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
The Ri257 is indeed a MASSIVE boat. Definitely feels bigger than a 25LSV.
That's because it's about the size of 2 25LSVs on top of each other..... and it's longer. Big boat is big.
Old    Matt Zelenik (mlzelenik)      Join Date: Apr 2016       10-31-2017, 7:49 AM Reply   
I wish the dealer support for Centurion was better here in the Southeast. Would definitely love to have a Ri257.

For now I'll just have to stick with my gold standard SE. Its rough water ride is akin to floating through the clouds of heaven
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-31-2017, 9:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlzelenik View Post
I wish the dealer support for Centurion was better here in the Southeast. Would definitely love to have a Ri257.

For now I'll just have to stick with my gold standard SE. Its rough water ride is akin to floating through the clouds of heaven
Centurions are now offered at most if not all dealers that sell Nautique.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-31-2017, 9:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
Centurions are now offered at most if not all dealers that sell Nautique.


Hmm, not ours.
Old    Mitch Mann (BoardCo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-31-2017, 9:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
Centurions are now offered at most if not all dealers that sell Nautique.
Actually, the majority of Centurion dealers are not Nautique dealers. There are a few, but the majority are not.

That said, their dealer network is getting MUCH better. Also, any dealer that sells Nautique or Supreme can do engine warranty through PCM which is helpful. PCM also has other authorized service centers that can do warranty that are not tournament boat dealers. You have to be aware of how knowledgeable and reliable they are but that is something that will help. I would imagine that the dealer situation in the southeast for Centurion will look very different in the next couple years if they keep churning out product like the Ri and Fi series that they have been releasing.

To the point of sales, here in Utah the Ri257 has outsold the 25 LSV, Supra SE and X26 this year. From the numbers we have seen thus far it is tied with the G25 for sales. It is also year one for this boat and people have to get out in it to experience what it is really like. If you have the opportunity to hop in one I strongly recommend it.
Old    Matt Zelenik (mlzelenik)      Join Date: Apr 2016       10-31-2017, 10:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
Centurions are now offered at most if not all dealers that sell Nautique.
Not here in Nashville. A few "dealers" within 200 miles but they mostly have leftover 16's which would not make me feel good about purchasing from them
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-31-2017, 12:17 PM Reply   
There isn't a Nautique dealer at all in Louisiana, but the closest dealer in Alabama carries Nautique, Supreme and Centurion.

I don't see why a Nautique dealer couldn't get a Centurion or order one given their alliance. Centurion is a very rare boat in my neck of the woods, heck most inboards are rare.
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-31-2017, 12:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Hmm, not ours.
Shouldn't matter to you anyways, you have the best boat on the market today..... Eveything else is second tier.
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-31-2017, 12:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
There isn't a Nautique dealer at all in Louisiana, but the closest dealer in Alabama carries Nautique, Supreme and Centurion.

I don't see why a Nautique dealer couldn't get a Centurion or order one given their alliance. Centurion is a very rare boat in my neck of the woods, heck most inboards are rare.
They are owned by the same parent, correct craft, but operate completely independent. It would be like going to a Chevy dealer and asking to order a Cadillac... you may be able to, but would be very odd
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-31-2017, 12:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
Shouldn't matter to you anyways, you have the best boat on the market today..... Eveything else is second tier.


Uhhh no, you can re-read my posts if you find some time! I simply said the SE rides a lot better than anyone cares to give credit for. And yes the boat is great, definitely nicer than I deserve and more than I ever thought I would own. Absolutely love it.

Soooo, there’s that? But thanks for the shout!

And it sure appears that most if not all Nautique dealers don’t sell Centurions at the current time, anyway.

Last edited by dakota4ce; 10-31-2017 at 12:59 PM.

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