It appears that in the deployed position, the tab/gate is virtually parallel to the hull on that side of the boat, effectively lengthening one side of the hull by what looks like 8-10". If this is in fact how it works, I'm surprised that one side of the hull being "longer" than the other would have the effect that it has on the wake. If it's that simple to create a clean wave on one side of the boat with wakeboard ballast, but at surf speed, that is awesome, and kudos to the engineer(s) that came up with it.
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i have no intention of reading all the previous crap. but something just struck me, and maybe its already been asked/answered. Whats keeping kids/idiots from climbing all over those thing and breaking the hell out of them?
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They're pretty beefy. Wait till you see the system in person.
The way it works is that the system delays the convergence of the wakes behind the boat. In other words, you sink the rear of the boat evenly, the tab deploys out, which forces water to move around it and speed up before crossing over behind the boat. This causes the surf side of the wake to form a clean pocket. It's the same principal that you achieve when you list the boat hard to the surf side. You are creating displacement by sinking the hull, and then delaying the convergence of the water by tilting the boat hard and essentially poking the bottom of the boat more toward the non-wave side. Two means to the same end. This is the simple explanation that my non-engineering mind is able to offer. |
That's a pretty easy to understand explanation.
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Reading through this thread is hillarious. Your all arguing over the lamest type of surfing that there is. And cwb4me is a joke in himself. I think tige needs to sponsor him since he can clear the wake w no ballast!!! Why are you wakeboarding behind an "rz whogives a ****" without the ballast anyway? If that the type of riding you like you shoulda picked up a slalom boat!!! Y'all keep arguing and Ima check this thread again next week when I need some entertainment at work.
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*Note, the use of the word drag was not an attempt to imply that Surf Gate is not a fuel efficient solution. I have no knowledge or data that backs up that it actually does create any drag. This is simply a guess based on what happens when I put things in the water while the boat is moving such as: the tip of my surf board, the toeside edge of my wakeboard on last year's Ronix One or when I try and dip my whole wakeboard into the water to wet down the bindings while the boat is still moving. |
Oops. I forgot to hit send and got side tracked on real work and in the meantime I missed Chatt's explanation. For some reason, I missed the deployed pic. I had it in my mind that it was a flap that folded out instead of folding to be parallel with the hull.
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It does poke out slightly, but not much.
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Have any pictures of the mechanism itself?
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That is very interesting. When this is deployed on one side, I am guessing the boat "crabs" and does lean/list to the side it is deployed, is that correct? If that is the case, how does gate affect the wave/transition. I mean, if it is deployed on the surf side of the boat, does it affect the face of the wave in a negative or positive way? For instance, a lip on the bottom of a swim deck can cause turbulence in the wave that are undesirable, however a mudflap type device can clean up the wave of spray and/or wash. This device seems like it is right in that critical area to affect the wave. Seems like a very cool innovation, none the less.
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congrats to malibu. that looks like a great design. hopefully i'll get to see it in action someday.
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OK from my precursory understanding, could you just narrow your swim deck and install bennett-like trim tabs in a vertical position to achieve the same effect?
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The boat does not crab walk or list to either side, regardless of whether the tab is deployed.
The tab deploys on the non-surf side. Again, without getting into the boring details, it simply changes the trajectory of the water on the non-surf side, and alters the point and force at which the wakes cross each other behind the boat. You achieve the same dynamic effect that substantially listing the boats achieves without listing the boat or crab walking the boat. |
Really, the tab comes out on the non-surf side? That is not what I expected. I am liking this more and more, my boat has a tiny platform with room on the sides to mount a tab like that. Plus I haven't drilled a hole in my boat for ages.......
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Ralph,
Please be careful. And by "be careful", I mean be sure to put your camera in a plastic bag, so that if the transom rips off your boat, you can take a picture of it sinking. :D |
I will take a picture from behind while surfing!
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I like the simplicity of it. The boat wont crab because of the tracking fins and rudder. It wont list to either side because the boat is weighted evenly. And all it does is change the way the wake meets up behind the platform. Keepin it simple.
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Wow, this is so simple that it boggles my mind! I wonder why this hasn't been thought of before?
Either way, I like it. This whole thread, however, really sucks to have to read through :( |
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I guess I can't quite picture how it would not crab or list. That is very cool and would love to see a video or in person to understand exactly what you mean. I love the fact that my boat doesn't list much at all when surfing, but not at all? wow, pretty cool. |
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^^^where do I find wives like that?? Sorry to stray off topic lol
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No doubt. I need that wife.
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Reading chatwakes review, that sounds VERY cool, no doubt about it. I still can't quite wrap my head around the no list and no crabbing, how that works. But I am sure if I get a chance to see it, I will be apparent.
I guess the only question would be if the system would work in a way to satisfy the hardcore wakesurf crowd, and not only the "after wakeboard" crowd. If it could do that, I think it would qualify as a game changing innovation at least in my opinion. I can see how for malibu the "after wakeboard" crowd is a huge segment for them, and makes sense to hit that first. Very cool indeed. |
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I agree, I experience that now, its awesome, and feels so safe. But Zero list and Zero crab? Wow.
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For perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRT9...e_gdata_player |
^^^^^^
That pretty much sums it all up right there. |
I saw that video, great video, but doesn't show how it doesn't list or crab so much, you can kinda tell because it doesn't seem to list back and forth.
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I have some interesting questions/observations. (This is not to detract from this being a genuine innovation, it truly seems to be from my standpoint.)
Just some thoughts as I was thinking about this. It will be fun to see it tested out and how it works for the die hard wakesurfers. |
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Originally Posted by mhunter Truer words were never written. Only the opinions of some are valid here. I have no skin in this game . I have nothing for or against Malibu. I wish they would just introduce the thing . All these videos show nothing . How about some real information showing how it works , when its available and what it costs? "As one of the chosen few I find your remarks tasteless and morally bankrupt. Fact is if CC had come up with this innovation it would be akin to the second coming for you. As you said, you have no skin in this game, so right now your best virtue should be silence." The truest thing posted in 2012. |
I didn't post anything against Malibu or their new Surfgate all I said is Its not going to make a difference for me in buying a boat . If Nautique came up with it it wouldn't change anything . We surf 10% of the time I have 1 goofy surfer that comes out regularly . I'm not saying its not a great invention its just for me its not that inconvenient to set up for surfing. Or in other words the problem doesn't need fixing. I dont use that much weight for boarding or surfing so it doesn't take a lot of time to switch. That's my OPINION if you dont like it then dont read it. Who are you to tell anyone they cant have one?
Congratulations to Malibu I hope it works out for them. |
Surf Gate details
Chattwake is a solid resource for information.
Surf Gate was not originally planned for a launch in July. The release was scheduled for Surf Expo in September, the Red Bull Wake Open changed that. The full details on Surf Gate will not be available until Surf Expo in September. Surf Gate's technology is simple but very effective. Others will quickly move to copy the system. The gates provide a solid surfable wake at the touch of a button, as Chattwake has described in much greater detail. As a surfer, in the ocean and behind a boat, I can tell you this. I saw the button pressed, I heard the hum of the gate open and then witnessed a wave behind a boat. I didn't care about Surf Gate at that moment. All I wanted to do was jump in the water and surf! There was no, cooler moving, family and friend gathering, sand bag piling, Big Bertha chicken bucket placement... no "work" just wake. To me it is a game changer. There will be surf, even when it's flat. |
Garcia,
I wish I had better answers for you. Those are good questions. All I can really say is that I thought the LSV wave was really good with factory ballast, wedge and people weight. I don't own an lsv, so I can't compare the surfgate wave with a listed wave beind the lsv based on past experience. I didn't think to weigh the lsv we had with the system on it to make it list to see if the wake had the same shape. I think that once these boats hit the market, and a lot of feeback hits the forums, your questions will be answered. I wish I had an LSV or Adam's MXZ now, because I'd just go shoot some video on my iphone and post it up. |
Thanks for all of the answers guys. Please post up videos/pictures as you get them. It appears to be a pretty solid system and doing what it was designed to do.
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Back on topic, this looks like some really cool tech from Malibu. I'd be interested to hear if there's a way to retrofit older boats. |
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Bottom line, a big block actually costs well under $1000 more than a small block, likely closer to $500. $3k for the option is nearly all markup, some of which would be PCM/Indmar/Mercruiser and some the boat manufacturer. So a big block actually cost about what you'd spend on a good prop but is clearly superior since you won't need to run as much RPM for a given weight/speed and you can maintain a higher top end speed. I see someone mention Surfgate will be a $3k option. Seems really pricey for a pair of trim tabs mounted sideways. This concept may work well on many hulls and if it does it should be a simple $300-$600 upgrade depending on what tabs you get, if you need to glass in wood on the transom where they will mount. Cost should be negligible on a new boat build with a transom and platform already made for it. Should be a goldmine for Malibu. Cost doesn't matter much on new boats, if you're spending $70k, whats another $3k for a big block, $3k for sideways trim tabs, and $3k for built in ballast? The type of people who will spend $70k on a boat likely don't sweat another $9k to get all the options they want. The guy who spends a fraction of that would likely be stretching to throw another $9k at it, but can swallow to DIY cost to make these and other upgrades. Either way, this seems like a really cool option, definitely innovative. I'm curious to see how well it works on other hulls and how deploying both sides effects the wakeboard wake. |
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Trust me, Mhunter's posts and logic are awful, but to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction isn't the answer either. The G23 is not a forgotten boat, they have sold a good amount, and I highly doubt the xstar will outsell it 10:1 especially considering the negative press it has already received and the numerous delays. Is it possible for people to remain close to neutral on all these brands and realize these new boats and innovations are great for us, the buyers? They all have their advantages, I am just excited to see this much product development. Although with this much change, one wonders where the capital is coming from to drive it; perhaps ridiculous prices? (They are all overpriced, lets be honest) |
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Chat great review on this "game changer" which it clearly is. Can't wait to see these boats out on the water. I could see myself considering one of these boats in the future.
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The simplicity of this innovation is great. Not only will you be able to switch sides in seconds but you will be able to go from wakeboarding to surfing in an instant. For me personally it makes sense as I have riders that only like to surf and riders that only like to wakeboard. With this system you would be able to go from wakeboarder to a wake surfer or vis-versa. No more waiting for one group to finish for the next group to go.
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game changer is the new epic...
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its called a buzzword. seems like game changer will be the new word here for the next year or so
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QUOTE=TroyD;1768227]Truthfully I have never been behind a Tige as I wouldn't want any of my friends to see me behind one. Me and MHunter were on Lake Powell the other day and we blew the tranny on our prototype G23 while jumping wake to wake with no ballast 250 feet back. A Z3 drove by a couple times (i forget how many) before we noticed it and he towed us back to shore although he got bad gas mileage for doing it because towing our non-production G created lots of drag. We then test drove a MB and ordered a new XStar for 2017 delivery. XStar ver. 8.1 I think it was. The hull was made of billet.[/QUOTE] We all have favorites but how lame would this forum be if we didn't. It be a snore fest like Planet Nautique. A fan boy love-in with MHunters everywhere. |
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Ermahgerd Serfgert
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My buddy and I have been laughing about this meme for a few days, figured I'd put it to good use here ;)
In all seriousness, cool to see the progression of wakesurfing from Malibu! |
Oh man. That's hard to look at. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
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i wish yall would take your pissing contest elsewhere. it really takes away from a thread when you have to shift threw all the bull crap to get to the meat of the topic.
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im very intrigued by this and cant wait to see more on it and hear from people that rode it. the video from above..... the lip of the wave looked washy. does it need 'dialing in" or is the supposed to be the first nondialable wave? it did show good length.
i have many of the same questions robert has about the push. |
In regards to the push, if you ask Grubb, based on his reaction at the end of this video, it has plenty. What more do we need?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGssi...e_gdata_player |
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I will be at surf expo this year, so will look forward to getting a good look at it. |
at first the opposite of surf side deployed cleaning up the lip didn't make sense, but now that i think about it an even wake is made by equal opposing forces of the wake joining at the center point at the rear of the boat. by deploying the opposing side of the surfer it would create a new "centerline" of the boat which would allow the surf side displacement to come back further than the real centerline by offsetting the opposing force of the deployed side. damn good idea, simple and effective.
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Man It Looks Like It Could Be Amazing!! I'm an old and slow guy so don't know if anybody has tried this on their existing boat? My son is in Texas this week until Monday ...... but when we go out next tues or wed I will have a cheap ass rigged gate on the boat to see for myself what it can do!! I'll adhesive a channel on the transom that will hold a piece of alum plate that I can bracket back to the swim platform and exhaust or whatever works. Crude and simple but very intriguing ..... will be able to try it unweighted and then weighted!! And with my size it will be one hellava test .... that is as long as it stays on lol!! I'll take pics and post unless someone beats me to it but it won't be until next week!!
I was looking at Boat Wake Dynamics and if this works by changing the dynamics of the wake WOW ..... have a friend who has always wanted to engineer something that would shape the wave but he never thought about something on the non surf side!! Genius?? |
oh and i also have the ability to put 1500lbs on each side with 500lbs up front ..... will test it every way we can think of but only on one side!!
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The marketshare is now at 39,5 % so we (Im dealer in argentina) will reach the 50% Amazing system in my opinion. I dont surf but will consider in the future. Luciano |
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I want to see the wave with the stock 1250 pounds or whatever it is plus a 750 in the rear locker surf side plus the surfgate in action. Do it, do it.
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I do think if you combined the surfgate with 4,000lbs 60 second quick fill system you would really cause Tige/Centurion owners to rethink what boat they buy. |
Very nice job Malibu! I think this is really going to be huge for them. Are all the boats in the videos MXZs?
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I can't wait to see what kind of waves people are going to get out of some slammed BU's next year. Hopefully, I get a chance to demo a surfgate equipped boat again really soon. I'm working on it. How awesome would it be to be able to get a comp sized wave w/o having to list the boat at all? I'm betting it's possible. We'll see!
A friend of mine tells me that virtually every bu being built right now, which has the option of being build with the surfgate system, is getting built with the surfgate system. There should be a bunch of these boats hitting the lakes in a matter of weeks. |
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Bus do need a ton of weight to get a good surf wave, due to their flat bottoms, but once you get that you can get one hell of a wave out of them. I think in the video they said they were running stock, which is 1250lbs, for a Bu is really light for surfing. The wave wasn't mind blowing, but now you can add sooo much more weight to it and the wave will rock. A slammed LSV puts up a monster surf wave. Hell my VTX puts up a monster surf wave when we slam it. If I could run all my ballast full, which is over 3000lbs, I can only imagine what it would look like |
Here is an intersting question. Will the amount of weight, and subsequent wave size have an effect on the performance of the surfgate? Would love to see some more info on a sacked out boat running with it.
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I wanted to agree with what many have said already. Though I have no clue of how Malibu will market surfgate, I have to believe it will be towards the non-hardcore/family/majority of wakeboard boat buyers. Personally I'm not a fan of surfing. I find it boring, but more importantly I have to trust someone else to drive my boat that is not optimized to perform under such extreme conditions. The boat is listing, the rollers they have to turn through are larger, etc. I also dislike driving for others for the same reason. Surfing is about the only thing my wife wants to do though, as she no longer wakeboards or wakeskates (too many injuries). Surfgate, or inevitably what other boat manufacturers will engineer, solves this problem. It's the exact type of idea I was hoping for when Malibu teased the idea....something that makes my life more simple and improves the sport. I'm sure everyone definition of game changer is different, but this looks as though it could fundamentally change the way people "operate" today. Congrats to Malibu, now I need other boat manufacturers to copy it as quickly as possible :)
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Again, not complaining, just pointing out how it will really be used by surfers. And by that, I dont mean the wakeboard crew that is out all day and decides to surf when the water goes to crap. Note: my 5,000lbs reference was related to a 247. You have a VTX, which obviously wont hold 5,000lbs. |
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Why wouldn't it be used by surfers? The fact it can be switched mid set set allows for newer and different tricks than can currently be done. Part of what makes surfing lame is the low amount of one wake tricks. You add in wake to wake tricks and now you start to add more excitment to the sport. |
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I still am excited about surfgate and think the potential is huge. But it is not going to cause core wakesurfers to run out and buy it. |
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Chattwake, I heard there will be one of Norris Lake the weekend of July 27 - July 29. I will be down checking it out along with the G23. Wife gave me the ok to dream |
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You obviously don't have to run 5000lbs, but you can if you want. I'm not sure what danger you're talking about, a 247 wiht 5000lbs of weight rides low, but not that low. I've seen one run with 6000lbs of weight and 10 people on board. They were jet ski towing into the wave. BUs need more weight, but having the ability to change mid session with a ton of weight is going to interest the hard core surfers more than you think... Every new invention has their nay sayers, and some are right, but for the most part people latch on and it changes the sport. |
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It's not an observation, it's an opinion on what you think others may or may not do. Typically it's called nay saying. |
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Now let me give you an opinion, the surfgate technology combined with a quick fill ballast would be a game changer. It would allow for both worlds (1) change the wave quickly and (2) not run a bunch of extra weight to do it. But if it will make you happy, (1) I will not make any obvious observations or (2) share my opinion. I will just agree that everybody will now buy a Bu because of surfgate. |
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