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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Wakeboarding Discussion Archives > Archive through December 14, 2003

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Old    throwinatantrum            11-10-2003, 5:57 PM Reply   
??do they??
Old    norcal_99            11-10-2003, 5:59 PM Reply   
The simple answer is no.
Old    throwinatantrum            11-10-2003, 6:09 PM Reply   
why not?
Old    MAC (mac_attack)      Join Date: Oct 2003       11-10-2003, 10:38 PM Reply   
Hmmm, I would have said simple answer yes.
Old    Dan Noonan (depswa)      Join Date: Nov 2000       11-10-2003, 10:48 PM Reply   
Pretty much the same effect, but the boat will sway more with a pole than a tower. You can really feel the boat tip if you cut hard with a pylon. I'd just go with whatever you can afford. Obviously a tower is better all around (ie. room in the boat, strength, stability, etc), but they do give you the same effect as a pylon essentially.
Old    gbphantom (gbphantom)      Join Date: Apr 2003       11-10-2003, 10:51 PM Reply   
I would have to go with a no. I think a tower is better because it doesnt make your boat tilt as much. My friends have a pylon on their boat and I have a tower and my boat is narrower that theirs and their boat tips way more than mine. Hope that helps.
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       11-10-2003, 11:04 PM Reply   
This is something that I've debated in my own mind for quite some time now.

A tower and a pylon, providing the exact same tow point (same height, same position from the front to back of the boat and given that it's centered), saying that both (pylon and tower) don't flex at all wouldn't they both make the boat sway just as much? My theory is this: A force exerted to one certain point (tower or pylon) through the rope would cause the boat to sway. The only thing that would make so the boat wouldn't sway, at all or as much, would be if the tower had a considerable amount of flex, and that's not good right? What do you guys think?
Old    xtremebordgurl            11-10-2003, 11:20 PM Reply   
In terms of behind the boat, it will give u the same affect, but it is drastically different for the boat itself. Basically what everyone has said is right on, w/ a pylon the boat will sway more, with a tower the boat is more stable. The only riding difference (behind the boat) is that pylon's may not be as high in the air as a tower, and the higher u can get your line up, the bigger u can go. Good luck and have fun!
Old    absolutofft            11-11-2003, 1:18 AM Reply   
Any extended pylon I have seen is higher than a tower.
Old    Timothy (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       11-11-2003, 2:56 AM Reply   
simple physics a pole at the same height will not sway the boat more than the tower. however the pole itself will bend a little.
Old    Blabelmooch (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       11-11-2003, 7:31 AM Reply   
I found there wasn't any noticeable difference in sway going from a SN 2001 with a pole to an 03 SAN with a tower. I'd say the only advantage is the convenience of getting boards out of the way and not having a strap run to the bow.
Old    wilson (3puttwilson)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-11-2003, 7:37 AM Reply   
I had a pylon on my Prostar before I put a tower on it and this is what I think.
Riding behind the two feel pretty much the same. Driving the boat I could tell a big difference. There is a lot more sway with a pylon. The biggest advantage of a tower is board storage and the ability to add goodies like speakers. I know you can get board racks for pylons but there still somewhat in the way.
Biggest advatage of a pylon is it's much cheaper price and it's portable.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       11-11-2003, 7:38 AM Reply   
It will not make your boat sway more. It can give you the 'stretchy rope effect' though.
Old    norcal_99            11-11-2003, 4:53 PM Reply   
Pylons will definitely make a boat sway more because the pylon acts like a joystick concentrating all the energy in a straight line to one mount point. With a tower the energy is distributed through the shape of the tower and to the four mount points. This distribution of force lessens the sway of the boat causing for a more steady pull, which in turn, effects the riders ride.

Although the magnitude of this effect varies due to all of the riders variables i.e. weight of rider, cut of rider, etc. there is in fact an effect. Therefore the answer to your question is no.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       11-11-2003, 4:58 PM Reply   
my buddy is selling a skylon pole for i think 150.00 if anyone is interested, email me.
Old    mike_rennie            11-11-2003, 4:58 PM Reply   
A pole will not sway the boat the same as a tower, a pole is mounted in the center of the boat, while a tower is mounted on the sides. The pull of the rope is spread out more evenly than a pole because the pole has all the force going to one point.
Old    norcal_99            11-11-2003, 5:03 PM Reply   
J-Rod, What do you think is causing the said 'stretchy rope effect?'

[] a. boat went over a roller.

[] b. sway of boat from pylon.

[] c. gail force winds.

[] d. your third getting up in boat to grab a beer.

[] e. none of the above.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       11-11-2003, 5:12 PM Reply   
Thane is correct.

This is simple physics. If the system is rigid, it does not matter how the system is connected to the boat.

If the pull-point is the same and the tower/pole are rigid, then the pull will be identical.

However, towers clear the floor, holding board racks and speakers, much better than a pole!
Old    ALee (aaronlee13)      Join Date: Jul 2001       11-11-2003, 5:13 PM Reply   
what if i put a pylon on top of the tower? will that change anything?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       11-11-2003, 5:35 PM Reply   
It's funny because this discussion is brought up about every six months and the same arguments are made.

Thane and Dane are correct and have laid it out in the easiest to understand terms. Assuming all things are equal (mount height, boat size, flex, etc.), there is absolutely no difference in how much it will "roll" the boat when the rider is pulling on it.

In real life, the one variable that does change is the amount of flex between these two systems. Usually a pylon will flex more than a tower. If anything, this pylon "give" will make the boat roll less, not more, than the same boat with a tower, but the difference depends on the relative flex between the pylon and tower and is most likely negligible.

The reason that people think their boat rolls more with a pylon is due to the extra flex generated. As the rider pulls out, the boat will roll over the same as it would with a tower because it has the same force exerted upon it. However, what happens next is where the difference lies. A pylon is more likely to rebound from the initial pull causing the boat to rock back in the opposite direction of the pull. This is what people feel and it gives them the impression that the boat is rolling more when it's really just rebounding more.

So in conclusion, a tower is better because it's stiffer (reducing rebound) and it makes storage a lot handier. However, you will have to pay extra for it, so that something you'll have to weigh.

I think it's officially time to add this to the FAQ on this site! :-)
Old    norcal_99            11-11-2003, 5:38 PM Reply   
Dane, Let's be real for a minute. There are too many if statements in Thanes and your "simple physics". Therefore making it not simple. Both towers and pylons are not rigid. They both have flex, and flex differently.

I'd take first hand knowledge before so called "simple physics" any day.

As quoted above by Wilson, "I had a pylon on my Prostar before I put a tower on it and this is what I think...There is a lot more sway with a pylon."
Old    norcal_99            11-11-2003, 5:46 PM Reply   
Well explained Dave, There's a FAQ area? Where? I didn't know this.

Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       11-11-2003, 5:55 PM Reply   
It's on the menu, but don't go there. It sucks! :-)
Old    English (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       11-11-2003, 10:31 PM Reply   
Forget all this junk about, flex, rolling and crap. A tower is better because it looks better, thats all that counts, style is everythng, it doesn't matter how useful it is
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       11-11-2003, 11:50 PM Reply   
Rene, true, the flex is not the same.

More flex dampens the riders effect on the boat yielding less boat sway.

More flex dampens the riders load on the rope yielding less rider pop.

Thus, since a tower generally has less flex, it follows that a tower produces more boat sway and a better pull.

Yet, the differences are pretty small. This is why we can see people cranking out great tricks behind poles and towers.
Old    norcal_99            11-12-2003, 10:10 AM Reply   
It is true that the effect is minor, and many times unnoticeable. That is why at the beginning of this thread I simply answered no.

On another note, I was in the delta, a few months back, and witnessed a boat with pylon get pulled completely over from another boat running over it's tow rope.

Also, How's the knee? I go to the orthopedic doc Thursday at 1pm. to see if I will be hitting the slopes or not this winter. Iím hoping to get the go ahead so I can hit the slopes with Alee, J-rod, Kimmy, Gina and others.
Old    David O'Rourke (boardinbeast)      Join Date: May 2003       11-12-2003, 11:35 AM Reply   
Well, just to through my two cents in, I agree with all those above that say a pylon won't make a boat sway more than a tower. I'm a second year mechanical engineering student with 6 1/2 years of physics behind me. All things being the same (height of tower/pole, rider, flex, etc) the sway would be axactly the same. The thing you guys are thinking about wrong is how the tower divides the forces, its true there is less force at any one of the four connections to the boat, but the sum of those forces are still equal to the one connection of the pylon. Not saying I know everything, but I have a pretty good grasp on physics and I have diagramed both the pylon and tower with all forces (being the physicis dork I am) while dreaming about getting one or the other for my boat. my .02
Old    andystrawn            11-12-2003, 1:16 PM Reply   
The most important thing is how high the rope is. I used to have a 6.5 foot pole and it pulled my boat around quite a bit, traded it in for a 5' and there was a noticable difference.
Old    norcal_99            11-12-2003, 4:41 PM Reply   
David O'Rourke, Being the second year mechanical engineering student with 6 1/2 years of physics behind you student that you are, you should know that all things (flex, etc) are not the same.

As a self-proclaimed physics dork of 6 1/2 years, calculate the flex variables, factor them into the equation, and let us know your .02 tomorrow.
Old    wilson (3puttwilson)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-13-2003, 6:12 AM Reply   
If money is not a problem buy a tower. If money is tight then buy a pylon.

Once again I have to go by my own experience and I could tell a difference with "sway" or rebound.. I had a two piece pylon and maybe that had something to do with it.Ultimately it didn't affect our riding or the boat driving so it's not really that important of a factor. My Prostar came with a pylon and I used it for one summer until I was ready to drop the cash for a tower.We had just as much fun riding behind a pylon as a tower.
Old    David O'Rourke (boardinbeast)      Join Date: May 2003       11-13-2003, 8:00 AM Reply   
whoa, easy there Rene =/ The only way I could do that would be to actually measure the flex in each. And I didn't assume everything is the same, but its just like everything else, when theres a bunch of things involved, its almost impossible to take every little thing into the equation. Everything done in physics is done to the majoority part, it is all watered down. If I were to give you 1000 dollars and 1 penny every day for a month, how much money would u have? technically 30000.30, but wouldn't u ignore the 30 cents? Thats just my point, you take into account the major factors and ignore the ones that are small compared to the 200lbs of force that the person is apllying to the system, the differences in flex of each may seem like a lot, but I can't see them effecting the boat which weighs a LOT more than the rider. I'm just trying to say its not that they are the same but the difference as far as the boat is concerned is negligable. Again I don't proclaim ti know everything, just another 30 cents =/
Old    norcal_99            11-13-2003, 10:10 AM Reply   
David, I doubt highly I'd ignore the 30 cents. I was a mathematics major, and I'm a very precise person by nature. To answer your 1000 dollars and 1 penny a day question you'd have to reveal which month because not all months have 30 days. Also, you'd have to reveal which year to factor in the leap year variable.

Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       11-13-2003, 10:21 AM Reply   
Rene, the stretchy rope effect is because the poll is bending. When the rope tension is released, the pole straightens out. Just like when you have a stretching rope. But that has nothing to do with rocking the boat back and forth. If anything it would rock less because the pole bends before the boat leans.

I don't care who studied what. It's not as valuable as common sense.
Old    David O'Rourke (boardinbeast)      Join Date: May 2003       11-13-2003, 11:04 AM Reply   
Both of us science ppl just got shot down by J-Rod lol, he is right, common sense does rule =P

But to put it another way, the boat and the rider is a closed system. What the rider does to the boat only matters where the rider pushes or pulls on the boat and how hard he pushes or pulls. The way that this force acts on the boat is independant of how it is physically applied, all the matters is where it is applied, and assuming the tow point for a given pylon and a given twoer are the same then it won't effect the boat any differently, besides the pylon taking up WAY more room inside the boat of course.
Old    norcal_99            11-13-2003, 12:23 PM Reply   
It's funny to see everyone try to debate that the pylon and tower are equal. They always throw if statements, assuming statements, etc. into the equation. When in fact, common sense reveals that both the pylon and tower flex and rebound differently.

Of course, if all variables were equal, the pull would also be equal, but in the reality of this, all variables are not equal.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       11-13-2003, 2:16 PM Reply   
What is so bad about qualifiers?

If pull location is equal and apparatus flex is equal, then tower == pole.

Location and flex can vary between towers or between poles or between towers and poles.

IMO, the interesting bit information is the fact that the method of connection, independent of location and flex, does not matter.
Old    Timothy (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       11-13-2003, 2:26 PM Reply   
dane, come on man, it is all about common sense, not science!

of course if you rode behind a skinny 2001 natty with a pole and compared that to, say a wedged 'bu vlx with a tower than of course you will think the pole sways the boat more. nevermind the boat is narrower and the wedge stabilizes the roll a lot.

also you have to consider which pole and which tower you are looking at. I have friends with towers that move a LOT more than my old fly high quad pod on my parent's old I/O, that thing was ROCK solid.
Old    David O'Rourke (boardinbeast)      Join Date: May 2003       11-13-2003, 3:27 PM Reply   
Dane you said it the clearest. "IMO, the interesting bit information is the fact that the method of connection, independent of location and flex, does not matter."
That I think is the point that we all need to realize, the fact that it is a pylon or that it is a tower isn't gonna make it sway more or less unless one location of connection is higher/lower than the other.
Old    norcal_99            11-13-2003, 6:43 PM Reply   
I guess the only way to settle this is to have an old fashion tug-of-war between the tower and pylon. The first boat to capsize loses.



Old    David O'Rourke (boardinbeast)      Join Date: May 2003       11-14-2003, 2:42 PM Reply   
LOL, now all we need is a couple people to let us you there boats. Hmmm in the interest of science, any volunteers???

(P.S. We can't be held responsible for any water damage that may or may not happen)


(Message edited by boardinbeast on November 14, 2003)

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