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Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       06-29-2018, 7:24 AM Reply   
New here and I see a bunch of post about the blackstix fins, do they make as much of a difference as people say?

I just bought a Doomswell Neo 4'8 after reading a bunch of stuff on here and talking to Brock. I am 5'10 205lb surfing behind a 2018 Moomba Craz. Would these improve the performance of my board that much?
Old     (Civilgee)      Join Date: Apr 2018       06-29-2018, 10:35 AM Reply   
Not to hijack your post, what is your setup for the Craz? A friend just got his and we aren’t getting a lot of push on goofy side. Following also regarding fins.
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-29-2018, 11:41 AM Reply   
I replaced the the fins that came on my Soulcraft with a set of the Chaos fins and I do find they made a difference with holding speed. Blackstix are another very common brand to use. The f4, WCT, and Rasta being some of the more popular

https://chaossurfco.com/wakesurffins...-fin-flare-fin
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       06-29-2018, 11:53 AM Reply   
Yep. Fins matter big time IMHO. I have several pairs of Chaos Flares, as well as Futures Ando and Solus. Zero stock fins in any boards.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       06-29-2018, 12:06 PM Reply   
I surf normal and aftering reading and talking to a bunch of people this is what I found that works.
I posted the video bellow, I am still tuning it and when I have the ENZO's I will make a better video that is not rushed.

Amplitude: Slam the boat as mush as you can. 3000lbs stock ballast full. I run 500lbs of lead and two 350lb bags.
-200lbs of lead in the bowe the other 300 around the boat., the two 350 bags on the seats focused on the back and the surf side.
-Move weight and people around until the boat maintains pitch and roll without draining a lot of your ballast in auto wake.
I am going to eventually upgrade to the 1450 ENZO's in the back.

Plates: STBD Wake plate 0-15%, Surf Tab 50-55% PORT surf tab70-80%

Pitch and Roll: STBD noticed the wave is better at pitch 8-9 Degrees, and roll 1-2.5 degrees, when I got to 3 degrees and over I noticed a loss in push.
PORT pitch 9-10 degrees, roll 4 degrees,

Speed STBD: 11.0-11.6
PORT: 11.4-12

Honostly just put as much weight on in the boat as you can.
Get to a speed and change the weight around and see what happens bump up the speed by .1 increments and see what happens to the wave, then slowly adjust the surf tab 2% at a time, then change the surf tab 5% at a time and see how it effects the wave. What I am learning is that there are no perfect numbers because the water being smooth, choppy, shallow and deep all effect the wave. So knowing what varibles manipulates the wave and how will help you best.

Some rules of thumb:
There is no substituion for weight/amplitude, the deeper the hull of the boat is the water the more water will have to move around it and the bigger your wake will get.
To much wakeplate lifts the back of the boat up and counters the weight you put back there
STBD more then 60% surf tab flattens the wave
PORT needs more roll and speed than STBD
More pitch makes a taller wave with a lot of push and a small sweet spot
Less pitch makes a faltter wave with a bigger sweet spot with a little less push.

I hope this helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-33HJ99y0w
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       06-29-2018, 12:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Yep. Fins matter big time IMHO. I have several pairs of Chaos Flares, as well as Futures Ando and Solus. Zero stock fins in any boards.
And these fit no problem in the Doomswell NEO?

The first board I tried with was a 5'0 ronix koal fish 2015 blem. That board has tiny fins. I am always on the accelerator and I am on the verge of pearling to stay in the wave. I am looking forwad to a sweet set up.
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-29-2018, 12:35 PM Reply   
As long as they have Future style fin box's which the Doomswell does then your good.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       06-29-2018, 12:52 PM Reply   
I am going to get the larges since I am 210lbs, can you still do 360s on these? Do they break lose alright?
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-29-2018, 1:17 PM Reply   
Yes, they still break loose fine and haven't had any issues getting the board around.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       06-29-2018, 1:28 PM Reply   
Thanks for the help
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       06-29-2018, 3:19 PM Reply   
let's talk fins a bit more.

What makes a fin cause the board to be faster? flexibility?
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       06-29-2018, 4:06 PM Reply   
Their flexibility allows you to push so to speak against the water to generate energy. Also they have a foil that when combined with their angle can provide lift, allowing the board to ride higher in the water and be more efficient.

They’re much more than a rudder, they are an airplane wing going through the water.

I am by no means a fin expert and I look forward to someone answering with more detail and science. But there’s a lot going on there—they can make a big difference in how your board performs.
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       06-29-2018, 4:45 PM Reply   
Fins provide lift much like an airplane wing, they also load and unload energy (flexing). As you pump and apply pressure on a bottom turn you are loading not only the board but the fin. Depending on the board rigidity, you may only be loading fins. The exact flex and amount of lift and hold are where the science is.
Just seeing Mitch's post, I guess he covered some of this.

Some boards are really stiff, dead feeling. Lively fins can help make the board feel much more responsive and lively.

Nick
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       06-29-2018, 5:29 PM Reply   
crazy. I'd like to try some but no idea what to get. got futures boxes in my nubstep. dont' really even know what I'd be looking for, maybe the stock ones are good enough for what I'm doing.

who's mitch?
Old     (Xbigpun66)      Join Date: Aug 2016       06-29-2018, 5:48 PM Reply   
I have used the f4 and also the soulcraft carbon fiber fins in my soulcraft voodoo. I like the soulcraft find best. They are the quickest and they turn the best.
Old     (MooSeMan)      Join Date: Sep 2017       06-29-2018, 10:02 PM Reply   
Take it from a person who has foiled about 10,000 fins and glassed them on boards ,,,FIN PLACEMENT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING AND WHERE THERE POINTING,,,THIS WILL MAKE OR BREAK A BOARD...I like Carbon Foam fins ,Foam make for the Best foil..
Attached Images
 

Last edited by MooSeMan; 06-29-2018 at 10:07 PM.
Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       06-30-2018, 12:35 AM Reply   
The future black stik and the wct are by far the most popular. I’ve only used the wct, from what I’ve heard the blackstick is more fast and locked in while the wct is a little less. I just switched to an xs Grom fin and I like it much better. Still have the speed but niw I’ve got more movement.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-01-2018, 6:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer101 View Post
The future black stik and the wct are by far the most popular. I’ve only used the wct, from what I’ve heard the blackstick is more fast and locked in while the wct is a little less. I just switched to an xs Grom fin and I like it much better. Still have the speed but niw I’ve got more movement.


Depends on what you weigh. The grom fins will not carry a big boy like the larges will. I have found, anyway. I need the lift that the larges provide (225#).

Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-01-2018, 9:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Depends on what you weigh. The grom fins will not carry a big boy like the larges will. I have found, anyway. I need the lift that the larges provide (225#).



Yes thats correct. I’m a lighter rider. 160 ish
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-01-2018, 12:04 PM Reply   
how does a vertical fin create lift?

or is this kinda like posi-trac, don't know how it works, it just does?
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-01-2018, 12:31 PM Reply   
They’re far from vertical—-for starters! The center fin is perpendicular to the board bottom (if you’re running one) but side fins are majorly canted typically.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-02-2018, 9:39 AM Reply   
they're maybe a few degrees from vertical!
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-02-2018, 10:36 AM Reply   
UGG..... don't think 2 dimensional or on 2 planes. Static cant runs from 0 to 9 or even 10 degrees on fins. What is degree is actual length? more than a quarter of an inch in general. The upper 2/3rds to 3/4ths of fins also flex a great deal. The water moving around fins is not static or even remotely laminar. When you turn the board the fins both naturally and due to flex are running through the water at all sorts of angles. Even a fin set at 0 degrees has some lift, which will depend on the foil of the fin, because they are not symmetrical on each side, so water flows faster across one surface than another. Some brands still boards that have pretty static and symmetrical fins. These work for tracking and keeping a board from sliding out but are a lot less practical for any real surfing. Funny how pretty much all top end boards, whether chinese made wakeboard brands or custom USA boards not only cant their fins and toe them in as well. This was not the case just a few years ago. Funny how many package their boards with premium fins now, not just cheap plastic molded fins.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-02-2018, 1:21 PM Reply   
so it's exactly like posi-trac....
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-02-2018, 1:39 PM Reply   
the angle of attack is nearly perpendicular to the board. guess I would have to try a few to understand the difference.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-03-2018, 6:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
so it's exactly like posi-trac....


No, it’s not. It might be your brain? 🤣

Think about how the board is tilted rail to rail as you ride, combined with canted fins, and they make lift. Do this over and over as you ride....more lift. It’s not magic!

And, well, it’s extremely real and certainly makes a huge difference.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-03-2018, 6:42 AM Reply   


I stole a screenshot to show you how the angles become big very quickly when you’re surfing.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-03-2018, 6:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
they're maybe a few degrees from vertical!


A few degrees, even up to 9, is a lot.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-03-2018, 8:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
No, it’s not. It might be your brain? ��
.
for sure!! I understand foils/wings, etc and it all makes sense. this is a little different!

Dakota, what fins do you use the most?? really just want to know which ones to try!!

Last edited by denverd1; 07-03-2018 at 8:49 AM.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-03-2018, 9:36 AM Reply   
I have several sets of Chaos large flares, which are great and a nice improvement over stock. I also have been lately running Futures Andos (sz large) and they’re very good.

I don’t really do much for surface tricks (spins), so the larges suit me well. I would say the chaos, which have a more upright rake would be better for that, while the raked out Futures Andos reall carve and generate speed well.

You have to have Futures fin boxes in whatever board you’re running of course.

If you’re lighter than 180, medium might be your jam. Futures Solus in this category have a lot of fans for sure.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-03-2018, 11:22 AM Reply   
picked up some large (i'm 200) blackstix 8020. we'll see. thx all for answering my stupid questions!
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-03-2018, 12:34 PM Reply   
Aren’t those rears? If so they will
not fit your fin boxes properly or perform properly.......
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-03-2018, 3:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Aren’t those rears? If so they will
not fit your fin boxes properly or perform properly.......
F*** if I know! Got a doomswell with 4 boxes.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-03-2018, 3:28 PM Reply   


got the Nubstep. front fins are the big ones
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-03-2018, 3:54 PM Reply   
looks like you're right, cancelled those.

you kooks didn't tell me about speed numbers either....
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-03-2018, 8:14 PM Reply   
You want a high speed number. Order the F8 BlackStix or the Andos. And don’t think about it any more! If you hate it I will buy them from you!
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-03-2018, 8:15 PM Reply   
Run it as a twin—Just two front fins. And proceed to shred.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-04-2018, 1:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
Run it as a twin—Just two front fins. And proceed to shred.
Solid. Thx bro
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-04-2018, 4:55 PM Reply   
Yeah man! Use my trials and errors to your advantage!
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-05-2018, 11:43 AM Reply   
Speed number really doesn't mean anything. It is just a made up marketing concept solely part of Futures. No other company uses it. There is no quantifiable data for the scale. They just pull the number out the the air or elsewhere.

Nick
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-06-2018, 5:09 PM Reply   
Speed number aside, getting properly sized fins (my case: large) has made a remarkable difference. The performance is very noticeable.
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-06-2018, 7:07 PM Reply   
ummm, yes and no. The fact that you like larger fins is more of a personal artifact than anything.
You are in the minority. Most wakesurfers tend to gravitate to smaller fins, even riding fins that are typically rear fins on ocean style quads.
These trends also correlate with wake size and with general style. Larger fins are just harder to spin, but provide great down the line drive.
In many area outside the US they ride pretty small wakes, in part of fuel cost and lack of ballast, and also smaller boats.
Riders outside the US gravitate towards smaller fins, and they gravitate more towards surface tricks as well. It is also true that in many, but not all areas outside the US the typical wakesurfing population is pretty small. You don't see a lot of big boys in Europe or Asia wake surfing, like in the US and Australia.
Good fins can make all the difference on a board, but specific sizing tends to be very person specific. Most ocean surfers tend to have a go to board, and they will drop fin size when the waves are poor and up fin size when the waves are better and they might need more hold. If lucky enough they will up board size too, but aside from pro riders most don't have vast quivers to choose from.
Again all general sizing aspects out on the interwerbs is based on good quality ocean surf, which is a world apart from wake surfing wakes.

Nick
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-06-2018, 7:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
ummm, yes and no. The fact that you like larger fins is more of a personal artifact than anything.
You are in the minority. Most wakesurfers tend to gravitate to smaller fins, even riding fins that are typically rear fins on ocean style quads.
These trends also correlate with wake size and with general style. Larger fins are just harder to spin, but provide great down the line drive.
In many area outside the US they ride pretty small wakes, in part of fuel cost and lack of ballast, and also smaller boats.
Riders outside the US gravitate towards smaller fins, and they gravitate more towards surface tricks as well. It is also true that in many, but not all areas outside the US the typical wakesurfing population is pretty small. You don't see a lot of big boys in Europe or Asia wake surfing, like in the US and Australia.
Good fins can make all the difference on a board, but specific sizing tends to be very person specific. Most ocean surfers tend to have a go to board, and they will drop fin size when the waves are poor and up fin size when the waves are better and they might need more hold. If lucky enough they will up board size too, but aside from pro riders most don't have vast quivers to choose from.
Again all general sizing aspects out on the interwerbs is based on good quality ocean surf, which is a world apart from wake surfing wakes.

Nick
Nick, thanks for jumping back in the thread. What would you put on your board? Noticed you have a few options on your site.

I'm riding a pretty good wave with 3200 lbs in the boat and a shaper on the side, if that helps.

Last edited by denverd1; 07-06-2018 at 7:46 PM.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-06-2018, 9:43 PM Reply   
So with good fins is it better to have you foot further back on the board so the dig in more? Or should you be more towards the front of the pad?
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-07-2018, 6:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
ummm, yes and no. The fact that you like larger fins is more of a personal artifact than anything.
You are in the minority. Most wakesurfers tend to gravitate to smaller fins, even riding fins that are typically rear fins on ocean style quads.
These trends also correlate with wake size and with general style. Larger fins are just harder to spin, but provide great down the line drive.
In many area outside the US they ride pretty small wakes, in part of fuel cost and lack of ballast, and also smaller boats.
Riders outside the US gravitate towards smaller fins, and they gravitate more towards surface tricks as well. It is also true that in many, but not all areas outside the US the typical wakesurfing population is pretty small. You don't see a lot of big boys in Europe or Asia wake surfing, like in the US and Australia.
Good fins can make all the difference on a board, but specific sizing tends to be very person specific. Most ocean surfers tend to have a go to board, and they will drop fin size when the waves are poor and up fin size when the waves are better and they might need more hold. If lucky enough they will up board size too, but aside from pro riders most don't have vast quivers to choose from.
Again all general sizing aspects out on the interwerbs is based on good quality ocean surf, which is a world apart from wake surfing wakes.

Nick


Interestingly: tI thought I liked smaller fins until I had the opportunity to own several sets of varying sizes. It was then I was able to ride them back to back to back all on the same wave on the same day. That was really the most poignant illustration of what suited me best. The larger fins provided a significantly greater amount of both down the line speed and drive.

I suppose most folks may not have that opportunity. They’re free to trust my experiment or not—but you’re right Nick, it reflects my personality as well. I like G forces, speed, and working my air game. I also like exploiting my SE’s wide wave to do big old bottoms turns.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-07-2018, 6:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowslydder View Post
So with good fins is it better to have you foot further back on the board so the dig in more? Or should you be more towards the front of the pad?


You should almost always have your foot at the far back unless your doing something like recovering or landing a jump and have your foot slip....

The ideal stance for a legit surf style board is an almost a tiny bit of a uncomfortably wide stance. It feels even a bit funky. It’s not super relaxed—it’s kinda crouched and ready.

IMHO. Look at all the awesome riders and how they stand.
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-07-2018, 7:46 AM Reply   
On hi performance aerial boards we like to put the pad as far back as possible. Wakesurfs basically have the nose and tail cut off compared to ocean boards.
In theory you ride with your foot centered over the fins or a little behind them. Wakesurfing is more pivot riding so when driving down the line you want for foot further back You will notice most pro style riders will move their rear foot up to chill and be in a more erect stance, then when they want to pump, they drop the rear foot back and start driving down the line.

Yeah totally Mitch. For most it is a compromise between being able to spin or having the leg strength to spin and the drive needed. This also plays into the board, etc. But it is the same reason most females and lighter riders do not ride quads, even when we introduced little rear fins, it is still too much fin area and requires too much leg strength. Whereas others swear by them. If you have a need for speed, then big fins or more of a fin cluster are the way to go.

Take a look at how Ashley Kidd rides. Part of it is her body build. She is short and stocky. But she has a very crouch stance, pretty much as wide of a stance as she can go.

Nick
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-07-2018, 8:12 AM Reply   
denverd1 if looking for more drive and speed I reccomend the flare fins out of my line. They are wildly popular. The medium flare pairs up real well as a quad for both medium to large riders, and the large flares provide that extra area for those really looking for more speed. As a quad or a twin or a twinzer there is a world of options to really figure out what an individual rider prefers and what feels best with their board. That is where all the science sort of falls away. So much of how a rider feels about a board or believes in what they feel is pure mysticism, voodoo and placebo. The science is pretty simple, it is basic physics, but the person is a complete black box.

Nick

Last edited by Chaos; 07-07-2018 at 8:16 AM. Reason: notes
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-07-2018, 4:18 PM Reply   
My large flare fins showed up yesterday. I am stocked about getting them wet tomorrow. I will try a wider stance tomorrow. I would just like to be able to stay in the wave by pushing down on the board and not falling out the back of the wave.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-07-2018, 4:29 PM Reply   
Learn to pump. Intermittently weighting and unweighting the front foot. Almost slapping the board nose on the water repeatedly.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-09-2018, 11:48 PM Reply   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGFCnSR1juc&t=11s

Here is a video of my trying out the new fins and trying to pump.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-10-2018, 6:37 AM Reply   
I would say you’re simply slogging through the process of learning to surf.

Those are more “carves” than “pumps” it looks like to me. They’re actually slowing you down. Recovery pumps are zero side-to-side and almost all straight up and down. Think slapping the water with the board nose.

Speed building pumps happen more rapidly than that—quickly up the wave and back down. You gain energy coming down, you lose going up, so taking a while to go up is killing energy. Don’t hang out up there, come back down the face with a slight left turn immediately. You will get the speed-

Keep working on it!
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-10-2018, 9:25 AM Reply   
I will try to pump straight up and down this weekend. Do you just push down on the board until it is about to go under and do it again?

I just wish my wave was big enough where I could just lean forward and move up on the wave. My sweet spot is only 5 feet behind the boat for me. My wife has about 15 but she is also only a 110lbs, When I lose any momentum and try to learn forward again it is already to late. I guess I better hit the stair master so I can drop some LBs and get my legs ready to stay in the wave.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-10-2018, 9:49 AM Reply   
Nope—you lift the nose off the water and slap it back down. Repeatedly, on the bottom of the wave, until you move forward enough to just chill again. It’s kinda like little hops-with the nose.
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-10-2018, 10:52 AM Reply   
You will get it. It will take some time. You look like you are moving pretty fast as well.
Might slow the boat down a touch.

Nick
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-10-2018, 2:49 PM Reply   
And for the pumping it sounds like I was doing it backwards. I will try letting off the pressure with my front foot and slapping it back down again.

We were moving fast from reading (on another forum) that faster = more push. I plan on slowing it down a bit on the next go. The ENZO's showing up this week. so our total ballast will go from 3500lb to 4500lbs which I heard the CRAZ needs to really get its wake going.

Thanks for all of the input.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-10-2018, 3:11 PM Reply   
You got a lot more stable toward the end of the vid.

Pumping is almost an ollie type motion, but putting more weight on front foot as you come down. Its a quick little pump and lean that will create speed. You only need 2 or 3 and youre usually back in it. Also, just shifting your weight forward will do a lot to keep you in the pocket.

Speed should correlate with the weight you're running. "More speed is more push" in no way applies to you and your boat. I'd guess you need 10.5 to 11 with current weight. Maybe 11.2 ish with more weight.

Try your boat at different speeds to see what works.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-11-2018, 11:14 PM Reply   
Yeah I will mess around with a lower speed regime and check it with GPS. Do two small fins on the quad create any speed are they more for a little drag and stabilization?
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-12-2018, 7:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowslydder View Post
Yeah I will mess around with a lower speed regime and check it with GPS. Do two small fins on the quad create any speed are they more for a little drag and stabilization?
More stability
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       07-12-2018, 8:08 AM Reply   
Pumping, like Dakota was saying is almost a small "hopping" motion with your body...as you learn that is likely the easiest way. Slightly hop up and down and you will speed up. As you get better you can start the smaller carving motions with it and it will get even faster since a slight side to side motion will also speed you up. I have a SC and the stock large fins felt like it locked the board in too much for me, I ordered the small grom grom fins this Spring and love them, changed the feel of the board a LOT. Big believer in having the right fins for your board. I only run the twinzer setup. Makes the board looser but still plenty of speed for me.
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-12-2018, 8:35 AM Reply   
A properly set up rail quad is about reducing drag by setting the fins to work together. You get a bit more hold which allows you to pump on your rear foot harder without the wide tail of a wakesurf sliding out. Pumping hard means more drive. They also provide more bite when sliding down the wave face after big moves like airs, etc. Two types of airs, basically fake airs where people launch off the lip and land in the flats (good wave to break a board) or really airs where you launch off the lip and land back on the lip or just below it, sliding down the face to recover.

Nick
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-16-2018, 2:07 PM Reply   
Got the ENZO's in the boat and applied your techniques for pumping and had a much better day on the wave. Was able to go ropeless and get back into the wave after I fell back. The only problem I noticed is that the when I got back to where the curl of the wave. My back knee would hit it and it would pull me out.

Super stoked about my progress thanks for all of the help I wish some of the videos online explained this in better detail. Learned more from this thread then every video I watched.

I will put some footage up when I get home and have a chance to edit it.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       07-16-2018, 8:12 PM Reply   
That’s when you squat over your lead leg and angle your back leg (standing on your instep on back foot) to keep it low. Inevitably it can still grab you but that delays the curl’s talons a Little from snatching you.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-17-2018, 9:51 AM Reply   
I like the curl talons reference I am going to steal that.
Old     (drnate)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-25-2018, 7:56 AM Reply   
Here you go snowslydder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdAAAObBEic

Also, from your first video, I also recommend slowing the boat down a touch. And your assertion that speeding the boat up causes more push is not true, it is just the opposite. When I have a large rider on a smaller board I might even slow the boat down to as slow as 10.5 or so. Having said that, most of us ride between 10.7-11.0 depending upon rider and board size
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-25-2018, 12:46 PM Reply   
^ I somewhat disagree. Being 225lbs I find riding slightly faster 11.4mph means the water is moving faster under the board so I'm not sinking as much. Yes, it may pull from the push side but I definitely found it better for me. It's really about finding your balance. The biggest issue is that most people learning are moving around way too much and yanking the rope with their arms so they are then hard on the breaks and becomes a never ending cycle. I always say it's a game of inches or half inches and it's all delayed so move slowly. Once you find your sweet spot you can start moving away from that.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-25-2018, 2:15 PM Reply   
I am actually going to take the boat out in an hour and I will apply those things.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-26-2018, 9:11 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
^ I somewhat disagree. Being 225lbs I find riding slightly faster 11.4mph means the water is moving faster under the board so I'm not sinking as much. Yes, it may pull from the push side but I definitely found it better for me. It's really about finding your balance. The biggest issue is that most people learning are moving around way too much and yanking the rope with their arms so they are then hard on the breaks and becomes a never ending cycle. I always say it's a game of inches or half inches and it's all delayed so move slowly. Once you find your sweet spot you can start moving away from that.
little more speed will firm up the face, that's for sure.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-26-2018, 9:24 AM Reply   
also, a well balanced boat (some weight in front, as well as back) will put out a longer wave that will be more firm in the sweet spot.
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-27-2018, 12:01 AM Reply   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VJGH6RJonU''

Thanks for all of the advice. Here is a picture of the wave, board, fins and pumping. On to learning tricks. First up FS air.
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-27-2018, 7:15 AM Reply   
You got it, you will be getting some air in no time. Your pumping and recovering is good. The side to side wiggles/loss of control are where you are loosing your speed. You can see the board is a little big for you wife, it is just floating on top of the wake, as she progresses, she would do well to look at a more specific board. Happy surfing.

Nick
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-27-2018, 7:54 AM Reply   
nice, snow you're getting it down!
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-27-2018, 8:13 AM Reply   
Curious what you guys think about this quad fin setup?
Old     (snowslydder)      Join Date: May 2018       07-27-2018, 8:42 AM Reply   
when they come in that color I am a fan lol,

What board would be good for a lady at 5'2 115lbs
Old     (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-27-2018, 9:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowslydder View Post
when they come in that color I am a fan lol,

What board would be good for a lady at 5'2 115lbs
In my line a 4'2 - 4'3" Contender, 4'2 -4'3 Nano or a 4'2 to 4'4" Mystix.

Nick
Old     (RideaNeversummer)      Join Date: Feb 2014       07-31-2018, 8:03 AM Reply   
Last summer we did a little non-scientific trial with some of the coaches at SurfSconsin. We started them riding their Jackpine BadAxe surfstyle board with the stock Futures V2F4 Thermotech (plastic) fins. These are the same size and foil as the Blackstix. Then we switched out the Thermotech fins for a pair of Blackstix. With all other variables the same (boat/board etc.). Neither coach said they could really notice a difference with the Blackstix. So there's that for what it's worth.

I still ride Blackstix because I have them, and I really like the size/foil of them. I also ride the Future's HS3 quite often. They are similar to the Blackstix but just a bit smaller.
Old     (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       08-02-2018, 2:06 PM Reply   
I've rode the Futures F4's F3's and F2's back to back with the John John Grom and the Blackstix F4 fins and can most certainly tell the difference between all of them. I'm not a coach, but I'm a solid rider and I could absolutely feel the differences. Same boat, same wave, same board. Just swapping all the fins during a long session.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       08-02-2018, 2:18 PM Reply   
trayson, which ones did you decide on for you everyday fin?
Old     (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       08-02-2018, 2:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
trayson, which ones did you decide on for you everyday fin?
I keep the JJG's on my Nubstep. They are faster than any of the f2, f3, or f4 thermoplastic. And they're looser, which I liked.

The blackstix were a close 2nd, having more drive and a bit less loose. The wife kidnapped the blackstix for her Doomswell sparkplug

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