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Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-17-2017, 10:19 PM Reply   
So Iím in the process of trying to get a surf school up and running for next summer and trying to figure out a boat upgrade. Iím a tige guy by heart but there prices have gone out the roof.

So Iím considering mb b52 23. Iíve never been the biggest fan of mb but the 18s look better and the wave seems pretty good.

Supreme S238. Kinda like a budget RI? Right?

Fi23. Anyone know the price of what this bad boy would run? Iíve heard cheaper then the 237.

Some sort of axis model, most likely t23 but not sure if I really like the Malibu wave style.

Lastly a Tige R23. Iíll get my tige but for the price it seems pretty crazy but so do all new boats.

So what are your thoughts. Iím for a high quality ready to go surf boat. All feedback is appreciated.
Old    Ian Moore (imoore)      Join Date: Oct 2010       10-18-2017, 11:39 AM Reply   
My buddy has an Axis T23 and it pushes out a nice, clean wake perfect for surfing! The awesome thing about the 2018 model is that it you can get the power wedge with it that was previously only available for malibu models. The wedge makes it so you can make your wake longer, taller and cleaner with just the push of a button. I haven't messed with the wedge before, but I've ridden a wake with the power wedge and it makes for a smooth ride. Even got a 360 on one once! It is really nice for a good priced boat too.

What location are you at that you'll be doing a surf school? I know a few people that would be interested in that.
Old    DTB (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       10-18-2017, 12:45 PM Reply   
Whats your budget? 75-80k?

B23 is nice as well as T23

You could also go San 230 or Supra SG
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-18-2017, 2:40 PM Reply   
The surf school would be on Vancouver Island up here in Canada.

Trying to keep it low 70k usd. How would an axis t23 compare to the supreme in regards to wave and price?
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       10-18-2017, 4:55 PM Reply   
A new 2018 FI23, well optioned is $130k msrp.....and $115k actual purchase price (I looked at one seriously last month). Excellent waves for surfing and wakeboarding and actually not bad for skiing too. I personally don't give a rats ass about that, but BoardCo put out a video on the FI23 and it was pretty impressive for those that do like to ski and surf with same boat. 5min video with no cuts where they go from slalom ski to wakeboard to surfing. Supposed to be due to the new Opti-V hull.
Supreme is totally separate from Centurion, so its nothing like an RI237. However I know a lot of people that really like the S238

Not been on an Axis myself, but know someone who cant stop talking about the A24 and how "great" it is. I have always found SurfGate to be more of a skim style wave, not surf style....but guess its all gonna depend on the setup.

Tige does have a great boat. I rode in a 2017 RZX2 a couple months ago. Very respectable wave....with the upgraded ballast I am sure it would be great and plenty of owners talk highly of the RZX2 and 3. They are nice boats, very nice interior and I really like their Smart Wheel....tho not crazy about the fact that the screen controls EVERYTHING, including radio (but that is what the smart wheel is for).

If you are looking to spend $70k, none of the above boats are even close to that tho...closest is probably the Supreme S238 and think it runs roughly $85-$90k. Not sure what an R23 goes for...guessing roughly the same at $85k? Gotta dream big to get anywhere in this world tho. Do it!
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-18-2017, 6:58 PM Reply   
I know the prices of these boats are crazy. Being a new business owner, even though Iím brining in way more money then before itís hard to get the financing.

I didnít think the fi was that expensive! Ri217 with 40 hours for 120 Canadian.

I love the looks, waves and features of the tige it just comes down to the price. I guess it all depends on what the dealers have to offer.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-18-2017, 8:05 PM Reply   
Larson Marineóyou will get a hella deal on a B52. Very high quality boat. Wave is a beast for 2018z
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       10-18-2017, 8:19 PM Reply   
I can tell you from being in the industry buying a boat to put 600-800 hours a year based on price is silly.

You have about 1000 other things to consider if you are actually going to run a successful (i.e. profitable) wake/ surf school and business. I can tell you very few make is actually work for more than a summer or 2. Most go bankrupt paying the bills in the 6-8 month off season.

Your most important factor is what local dealer is willing to partner with you in your venture. If you can't find one that is willing to get on board with you knowing your gonna need a new boat yearly then your chances of success drop exponentially. You've got to be able to buy at cost to have any chance selling anywhere near what you are gonna owe after what your gonna do to a boat in a season. Your gonna put between 150-200 hours a month on this boat. If they will lease you a boat even better.

Lets face it we'd all like to own a wake/ surf school business. Bottom line is you are far north with a very short season. You have to be very careful of the numbers. Have you got a quote for your liability and umbrella coverage yet. If not I'd do that before you buy the boat. Insurance for these kinds of business is unreal. Have you done a full business plan and model. Can you make the numbers show a profit even with paying your fixed over head for 7-8 months with the business having 0 income?

I'm not trying to be a downer, just pointing out the fact that the boat is the least of your business worries.
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-18-2017, 9:26 PM Reply   
Boardman 74 Thanks for the feedback. The reasons I was asking about boat brands was just getting an idea for what dealers I really want to work with. I havenít looked into the insurance specifically, but I have heard it will be a lot more. Regarding a business standpoint, Iím planning to run it under the family corporation. Iíve accepted the fact that the school may not pay for the boat, Iím paying for a boat having a school or not. Weíre on the west coast and surprisingly our season isnít too bad compared to Alberta.

I hadnít thought about the idea of leasing the boat, that would allow for much easier turn over each year and with long financing itís cant be much different in regards to paying it off eventually.

As of right now Iím just really trying to see if a dealer will sponsor me and just getting an idea of brands to steer away from.
Old    Nathan Gort (TNwakeboarder86)      Join Date: Sep 2016       10-19-2017, 7:45 AM Reply   
This is actually a cool idea. I have heard of a lot of people mentioning the thought of doing this. Especially because of all the right offs and expenses you can put under the business.

Really D?? you looked at another boat???? Shame on you!!!!

Leasing is a great idea, i've always wondered why that isn't a big options for dealerships to do for the normal people. One thing to look at as well is find a boat at a dealership that has been on the floor for a while. I believe most dealerships use a floorplan so after a certain time period the dealers are willing to cut you a deal. Also, look into the different board companies, maybe they have advice for you breaking into the business as well or might help sponsor you. Maybe get custom boards with your logo and so on. I know there is a place in NC that does surf school, they charge a bit but hey people pay for it.

Maybe even look at the newer boat companies, lately I been seeing a lot of waves coming from wake tractor and Bryant boats. Maybe start with something new that is inexpensive(I know people will give me crap for suggesting it) just to get the business going and established then you have data and proof to make a deal with a dealership or manufacturer. You could also look at doing a non profit, so you can give back to the community your in. I know a lot of people don't have a luxury to afford to do this sport, but I am sure a lot would love a chance too.

I know where I was raised a group did a non profit to give back to the vets, they did it for sailing, and it took off in the best way. Vets love to just be on the water and feel at peace. Just throwing that out there from what they did in Charleston.

Right now is the best time to buy a boat at least in my area, its getting to cold for everyone.

Good luck!!!!!
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-19-2017, 8:40 AM Reply   
The thing with the “cheaper” brands like Wake tractor and Bryant, all the dealers that are local to me aren’t the dealers that are into Wake surfing so the likely ness of a sponsor is next to none. Another option would be to keep the r20 for the first season and then be able to present a operating company.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       10-19-2017, 11:30 AM Reply   
Just a note that there is nothing cheap about Bryant boats. Not sure why they would be in the discussion anyway, though. I guess they have the forward drive option but I don't see them as being direct competition to dedicated wake boats. FWIW, we love our MB. Axis would definitely be on my list too.
Old    Eric R (Shakarocks)      Join Date: Mar 2013       10-19-2017, 12:42 PM Reply   
Agree with this. Bryant boats are the stern drive equivalent of Nautique.
Old    Nathan Gort (TNwakeboarder86)      Join Date: Sep 2016       10-19-2017, 1:18 PM Reply   
I just through it out there because they came out with a surf boat. Been seeing a lot of vids about it. I been wondering how it is, the surf wave looks like great but I didn't think it was stern drive. I personally have older Malibu and love it. I just know malibus new are expensive.
Old    James P (allzway)      Join Date: Feb 2014       10-20-2017, 10:00 AM Reply   
You should also look at the Mastercraft NXT22. The 2018's even look better with a new tower this year.
Old    Tim (TimbrSS)      Join Date: Jun 2015       10-20-2017, 10:25 AM Reply   
If I'm going to pay for wake surf lessons, it sure better be on a premium boat.
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-20-2017, 6:44 PM Reply   
Yeah thatís what Iím afraid of, not having a premium boat might turn some away. Although my local area isnít too exposed to the fancy boats.

I donít know if itís just me but I really donít like mastercraft
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-20-2017, 9:30 PM Reply   
Forward stern drive ďsurfĒ boats suck a bag of wieners. I spent a day trying to get the 25í Cobalt dialed and we had bags littering the interior to get a big mushball that was finally surfable.

A crap V drive is 10x better.
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-20-2017, 9:39 PM Reply   
Oh yes of course the IO brands just won’t compare.
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       10-21-2017, 8:46 AM Reply   
I have never heard of being able to lease a tow boat and cant see how they would be able to make that option work since everything about the boat is custom and there is no way they could re-sell boat with a warranty after someone used it for commercial purposes...and you would have to heavily discount a 1yr old boat to sell one without warranty. Your warranty in commercial setting is also 12 months instead of 5 years....something else to keep in mind since that will add more expenses after first year unless you do buy new every year. Good luck to you man, definitely do the research before you make the jump, hope it works out for you.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       10-21-2017, 10:01 AM Reply   
I worked for a dealer that leased to 2 different surf operations. Its not something they offer to the average customer. It's a sponsorship of sorts. You need to go and sit down with the owner of the dealership and sell your business to him and make him see the that there is value in this FOR HIM. If you don't have a sound business plan and a working business model showing you turning a profit....forget it. Your not the first guy trying to get a boat for your "surf school" at cost, when its really just for your personal use.

Its a partnership and the cost of the lease offsets the loss of value on the boat as much as needed. You are out there pushing the dealers boat to EVERY customer that comes to your school. Thats the deal for the dealer.

The leases are expensive, as they need to be to cover what your going to do to the boat. About 2-3 times what the average loan payment would be.

D......do you have any idea what the real dealer mark up on these boats is??? Trust me he can sell it without warranty a year old with 500 hours on it and still not be at cost. Then write off the sponsorship on his taxes and the manufacturer also kicks in sponsorship dollars to the dealer. He could sell below cost and still make money out of the deal.

And an FYI from the accountant me. You had better be 100% solid on your licensing and incorporation documents for your new business under the existing corporate umbrella. I say this because when you throw your 100K wake boat under a business as a "business expense" your government tax service takes notice. I can all but guarantee an audit the first year.

Many people have tried to have the business "buy" their personal toys in the past. The IRS is very good at watching it and even the legit people get hounded because the scammers have ruined it for everyone. Red flag isn't even the right word for what throwing a boat on your business taxes is, even when your running a surf school.
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-21-2017, 3:33 PM Reply   
The local dealer thatís willing to work with me does something similar to a lease. But instead they sell you a boat for similar to what it would be worth the next year when you trade it in. This way they make money off the used inventory
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       10-22-2017, 7:47 AM Reply   
Yup, I know approx what dealer pays...its a huge discount off msrp and sorta-like car dealers, they also get added "rebates" if they hit their sales target, etc. I was talking about the OP, not dealer....cause you rarely see dealers sell boat at actual cost. I have a very good friend that is a dealer and have thought about going into business with him as part of my "retirement plan". Plan to cash in my chips in roughly 4 more years and invest in something that I enjoy as part of my retirement gig, maybe as dealer partner or perhaps partner in boat rental company. That is all a pipe dream at this point tho, don't know what I will actually do.
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-23-2017, 8:24 PM Reply   
Are there existing schools in your area? In my area we have 2. One uses G23 the other RI237. So if you were to try and compete with an MB or Axis, it would need to be at a highly discounted rate.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-24-2017, 7:46 AM Reply   
^^this isnít necessarily true. The 2018 MB 23í wave is better than G and on par with Centurion. With zero tweaking and factory ballast. Go take a look.
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-24-2017, 8:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
^^this isnít necessarily true. The 2018 MB 23í wave is better than G and on par with Centurion. With zero tweaking and factory ballast. Go take a look.
It has nothing to do with how good the MB may actually be. Perception is reality. The average wake person if given the choice for lessons behind a G or an MB, the vast majority would choose the G if price was equall.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-24-2017, 9:39 AM Reply   
I respectfully disagree. If youíre the only surf school on the lake (which you likely are in the OP situation unless I missed that), and you have a new shiny MB, no one will give a rip. Theyíre not going to stop their desire to surf because of a boat brand. If there were 10 different surf schools on the same lake and 9 had Gs and the 10th had an MB, then maybe your point makes more sense.

Itís all about your school and selling your service. In this case, having direct competition with a perceived ďsuperiorĒ boat isnít likely to happen.

Most people, including boat owners, havenít a clue who has status in the surf world. And a ton of new surfers are not dyed in the wool wake people. I certainly wasnít. Went straight to surfing from a pontoon.

Last edited by dakota4ce; 10-24-2017 at 9:42 AM.
Old    Joe Brown (Darkside)      Join Date: Apr 2015       10-24-2017, 9:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
I respectfully disagree. If youíre the only surf school on the lake (which you likely are), and you have a new shiny MB, no one will give a rip. Theyíre not going to stop their desire to surf because of a boat brand. If there were 10 different surf schools on the same lake and 9 had Gs and the 10th had an MB, then maybe your point makes more sense.

Itís all about your school and selling your service. In this case, having direct competition with a perceived ďsuperiorĒ boat isnít likely to happen.
I agree if your the only one, then you don't have to worry.
We have multiple schools locally, they G23 and RI237.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-24-2017, 11:53 AM Reply   
The above argument is a non issue in the OP situation. Being on Vancouver Island the opportunity for competition is going to be minimal to non-existent. It's already a fairly small market for tournament boats to begin with let alone on the Island. Most dealers rep a brand for a whole province (state). You need to remember that all of California has a larger population than all of Canada. I also believe that if you are taking lessons you potentially don't know a whole lot about the sport to begin with so the top tier boat idea wouldn't matter. Besides, a few pictures on your website or advertising showing your "monster wave" with said boat brand would speak for itself.
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       10-29-2017, 5:25 PM Reply   
Dave said it right. We have a market for recreational and a beautiful lake that everyone loves to enjoy. But the key part that is missing is the boat dealers and exposure to the big fancy boats. There was a ri237 on the lake once and I literally chanced it down because I was like wtf is that.

Right now I have a 2014 R20 and I get wows and ahs from people saying how nice it is.. So a blingy mb or axis is more than enough.
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       11-03-2017, 11:52 AM Reply   
Anyone have experience with a 2013 Supra SA with the swell system? Just wondering if it is a decent surfing boat when slammed down with ballast. I found one for a really good price just wondering if itís worth it.
Old    Alex Faylar (wakeslash)      Join Date: Sep 2017       11-03-2017, 12:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer101 View Post
Anyone have experience with a 2013 Supra SA with the swell system? Just wondering if it is a decent surfing boat when slammed down with ballast. I found one for a really good price just wondering if itís worth it.
I rode the 2013 SA without the surf system on it and the wave is massive when slammed def worth the look.
Old    Cole Reid (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       11-03-2017, 2:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeslash View Post
I rode the 2013 SA without the surf system on it and the wave is massive when slammed def worth the look.
Thatís good to here! I was starting to here it wasnít the greatest. What do you call slammed? Iíd really like to keep it subfloor. Any boats you can compare it to?
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       11-04-2017, 7:43 AM Reply   
Are we still talking running a surf school? If so buying a 5 year old boat does not make any sense....
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       11-04-2017, 11:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer101 View Post
Anyone have experience with a 2013 Supra SA with the swell system? Just wondering if it is a decent surfing boat when slammed down with ballast. I found one for a really good price just wondering if itís worth it.
I've spent a good bit of time on that boat, with and without the surf system. It's a great wave either way, but having the swell system allows you to load it with more weight (both sides instead of just one), so the wave gets a lot longer when it has the system. Plenty of room in the lockers to add bigger sacks. I've seen people do 1100's or even the Enzo sacks in that boat. The current Supra's are using a slightly tweaked version of that hull to this day, so you know more or less what you can get out of it. The only thing you should know about that boat, especially if you're going to load it down, is that it is very low profile. You're more likely to take water over the bow of that boat than almost any other boat i've been on (that and second gen Star are probably equally bad IMO). If you have experienced drivers behind the wheel there is nothing to worry about, but it's certainly not a boat that less experienced drivers should be operating when loaded. Hope this helps.

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