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Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-26-2017, 1:31 PM Reply   
I need help.

I can't land spins where my back is to the boat anymore. It's very apparent on video that I am taking off back foot heavy and throwing my axis of rotation off but on toe3, hsbs180, hsfs180, etc where you land edging away from the boat on your toes I can't stick. These are tricks I've had locked up for years. I'd like to keep pushing to toe 7 and such but it's totally fruitless because ive lost these fundamental tricks. Anything you land hs edge away is no problem. It's incredibly irritating when you can't stick things you have no problem throwing.

I feel like I'm taking off very front foot heavy but apparently not. Anyone have any way to correct this? I don't know if it's my shoulders or my pop? Anyone have any drills I can work on to help?
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       08-26-2017, 3:12 PM Reply   
Just judging by what you've written, my guess would be that you may be simply throwing them too early. Heelside frontside and backside 180 are both rotations that need to be thrown on the way down in order to get over your toes. I start both tricks doing exactly what I would for a regular wake to wake jump, and when I reach my peak is when the rotation starts. Toeside 3 is one of the least forgiving spins there is if you go early. I would do a bunch of toeside 180's and make sure that you are waiting until your board has completely released to start spinning and you are staying on axis, then go ahead and add the last 180 when you have them dialed in.

Just my initial thoughts. It's hard to tell without seeing a video, but breaking it down to the basics may be enough to get you back on track. Hope that helps!
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-27-2017, 12:14 PM Reply   
i am definitely not cheating on my toe 3. BS I might be under rotating but the issue is most definitely my axis. When I'm coming into the wake my board is up, when I pop it is the same.

I'm trying to emphasize loading my front foot to pop but it's not helping much.
Old    Mark Griffin (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       08-27-2017, 8:12 PM Reply   
how are you falling? are you slipping out and landing on your back? Almost every blind landing crash is either from pulling too fast off the wake, or pulling in too early for the blind landing
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-27-2017, 8:57 PM Reply   
I am slipping out and back. So basically shooting the board out in front of me and collapsing over my back foot. I'll post photos/vids tomorrow
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-28-2017, 8:35 AM Reply   
Simple - I have gone through many "slumps" over the last 10 years. Where I can barely clear the wake, but still throw a tantrum. I recently had this slump and played with rope length, both sped, wake size, etc..to no avail and lots of frustrations.

Ultimately I got on my favorite board of all time, which is an old shape with continuous rocker - that caused me to really hold my edge through the wake. It also causes me to charge much harder than I have been. I started having fun again. I think with today's modern boats and boards, I can get lazy in my approach and don't really cut though even though everything feels right. Just as thought considering I went form a constant batch of inverts and 360's to struggling on 180s.
Old    Stephen P (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       08-28-2017, 8:50 AM Reply   
You just gotta stop screwing around and land your tricks man!
Old    Mark Griffin (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       08-29-2017, 8:10 PM Reply   
It's hard to say without video but from past experience I would bet you're rotating too early off the initial pop. Post up some vid when you get the chance
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-29-2017, 8:42 PM Reply   
Left my memory card at the lake but I have a few. Heres on stomped from like my first set of the year and one from 2 weekends ago. Its hard for me to see the difference. Sorry for vertical...






Last edited by simplej; 08-29-2017 at 8:50 PM.
Old    Andy Nintzel-NautiCurl Wake Shaper (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-30-2017, 8:01 AM Reply   
It's 100% your approach and take off. I took screen shots of both tricks as you leave the wake. The first one you have your chest over your toes the second your chest is behind your feet. This will cause you to get off axis the wrong way. To clean this up I would echo the 180 statement from above. I would do a bunch of one Handed TS 180s. It will feel really weird at first but it will force you to take off in the proper body position. This is really going to help you in the long run taking that 3 to 5 and then to 7. When you leave the wake in the second shot it also looks like you may not actually be leaving front foot heavy, looks like you may be compensating by dropping your back shoulder. That would make it feel like your front foot heavy but in reality your just dropping a should, almost like you would if you were trying to spin off axis (the right way). You can correct this in the air, but it take some solid air awareness, pull the handle towards your butt will help correct the spin in the air when you leave the wake like this. Once you get this corrected I would start trying some off axis spins where you are basically tripping the edge like you do for a TS front roll. This really helped me learn flat 7s as the approach is short, aggressive, and fast it forces you to stay on that front foot. Hope this helps some what.
Attached Images
  
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-30-2017, 10:29 AM Reply   
Tell me more about the "one handed toeside 180". I am doing toeside w2w and toeside w2w 180s but not consistently and not holding my back straight as I should, so not popping straight up. I am working on toeside progressive edge which helps but back position still not right, not pushing up with chest.

So stupid question. which hand to you keep on the handle? I am regular so as i approach the wake my left hand is toward the boat and tucked to front hip...keep that hand on and let go of right hand?
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       08-30-2017, 11:02 AM Reply   
The best way I have found to solve the problems of the riding slump is to spend a few sets going back to the basics. Slow sets, one wake, then wake to wake at 65 feet going through all of the basic tricks, and working my way back up. I spent an entire season riding at 65 feet / 21 mph, and came out of it more fundamentally solid than ever, and with 4-5 new tricks. The next year I rode at 70 and my riding was on point.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       08-30-2017, 11:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_nintzel View Post
It's 100% your approach and take off. I took screen shots of both tricks as you leave the wake. The first one you have your chest over your toes the second your chest is behind your feet. This will cause you to get off axis the wrong way. To clean this up I would echo the 180 statement from above. I would do a bunch of one Handed TS 180s. It will feel really weird at first but it will force you to take off in the proper body position. This is really going to help you in the long run taking that 3 to 5 and then to 7. When you leave the wake in the second shot it also looks like you may not actually be leaving front foot heavy, looks like you may be compensating by dropping your back shoulder. That would make it feel like your front foot heavy but in reality your just dropping a should, almost like you would if you were trying to spin off axis (the right way). You can correct this in the air, but it take some solid air awareness, pull the handle towards your butt will help correct the spin in the air when you leave the wake like this. Once you get this corrected I would start trying some off axis spins where you are basically tripping the edge like you do for a TS front roll. This really helped me learn flat 7s as the approach is short, aggressive, and fast it forces you to stay on that front foot. Hope this helps some what.
Bent at the hips. Stand tall and straight up.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-30-2017, 11:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
Bent at the hips. Stand tall and straight up.
You're right. And even though I don't have all my footy in front of me I know I stand up taller at the wake when I do, which is probably not helpful. I think Andy probably said it best. But I'm bent over too much and letting the board ride out behind me.

Probably also explains why I can do them more consistently tick-tock right now. No time to think about the set up.

Also not a significant problem on my 540, probably because I am not over thinking the speed of ro station, take off shown below:

Last edited by simplej; 08-30-2017 at 11:27 AM.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-30-2017, 11:31 AM Reply   
sorry, uploader not playing nice at the moment.
Attached Images
 
Old    Andy Nintzel-NautiCurl Wake Shaper (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-30-2017, 11:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
Tell me more about the "one handed toeside 180". I am doing toeside w2w and toeside w2w 180s but not consistently and not holding my back straight as I should, so not popping straight up. I am working on toeside progressive edge which helps but back position still not right, not pushing up with chest.

So stupid question. which hand to you keep on the handle? I am regular so as i approach the wake my left hand is toward the boat and tucked to front hip...keep that hand on and let go of right hand?
A TS 360 is really a trick that you can do 1 handed and land with that same hand on the rope without passing the handle fairly easily. I don't suggest learning them this was as your cheating yourself out of the fundamentals of learning a proper handle pass. I typically to a TS 3 without a pass and land blind but I learned them first with a pass. Learning them w/o the handle pass will make going from 3 to 5 or 7 almost impossible.

What I was suggesting is doing a TS 180 with one hand were you drop your front hand, so if you are regular that is your left hand. You can cut in with one hand or you can pop then drop your left hand off the handle. All the rotation on TS FS spins comes from the back hand where people run into trouble is being to dependent on the front hand on the approach as that is typically the hand taking a lot of the load from the rope due to your body position. On the approach for this, I have my elbows in at my hips and keep the handle in tight to my front hip. Once you pop drop your front hand and move the rope from your lead hip your back hip so the handle moves across the front of your body. The more you do this the more comfortable you get with the rotation and can ad grabs. When you are ready to take the TS FS 180 to a TS FS360 it's the same exact process but instead of stopping the handle at your back hip, you keep it moving to the small of your back and that will keep the rotation going around for a 360.

Hope this explains this a bit better.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-30-2017, 11:58 AM Reply   
ic...i actually am ok with that piece...the problem i am having with 360s is i am not getting enough slack to pass the handle...one guy i ride with is "mr leg push" and says i should create slack with leg push. but it seems like most videos talk about pop, then pull. he says that is not necessary to pull, and i should leg push to get slack.

i am super - double frustrated - with this because i can't get slack this way...do i simply need to pop, then pull to create slack, and then spin....in essence what i am asking is should i ignore his advice, and work on pull???

and if so do you initiate the pull right away after you leave the wake or wait til you level off?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       08-30-2017, 12:14 PM Reply   
Wait as much as you can and think of pulling the handle in towards you as you rotate to make the rotation. I generally spin more closely off the wake for 3 and 5 of any variety I like a big slow rotation throughout the air.

If you have access to cable riding this will help you learn the motion because it is drawn out over a longer period. I don't know what your ts edge looks like but that's my advice for a tight line. That and building a strong progressive edge through the wake.

Just don't take off like me and you'll be fine.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-30-2017, 1:30 PM Reply   
i have plenty that i take off like you, and some that i don't but still create no slack...i got to pull more i guess....cause when i pull handle to my hip, i can it there but the line is so tight that if i spin i get pulled over and get the lovely heel side edge to the back of the head...

Last edited by scottb7; 08-30-2017 at 1:37 PM.
Old    Rich (theloungelife)      Join Date: Jun 2012       08-30-2017, 2:21 PM Reply   
Something I'd add is do some cuffed riding. I picked that up from Learnwake and it's been huge for my hsbs 180 and tsfs 3 landings. When you land, you want to be looking back away from the boat. If you land looking at the boat, you're going to wash out or go 450, which seems like part of what's happening. Cuffed riding retrains your eyes and shoulders where they should be on the landing.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-03-2017, 6:42 PM Reply   
I decided to put my toe 3 down for a bit and revisit it in another week or two just to focus on fundamentals. Trying to play with my toe 5 and get it very level before going back. I think I know the adjustments I need to make on it.

Now onto my bs180 which is the other trick that has been plaguing me... Same thing here. I am just way out behind my board and I can't stick it... rotation and all that seems well timed compared to when I was landing it consistently.

Old    Steve Axis (MystiikVLX)      Join Date: Jul 2014       09-09-2017, 8:13 AM Reply   
Just curious as I see you are riding behind a T22. What speed and rope length are you running at?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-09-2017, 11:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MystiikVLX View Post
Just curious as I see you are riding behind a T22. What speed and rope length are you running at?
21.6 and 70 feet. Full plug n play (450's rear) and wedge



I also stomped a couple or toe 3's today! Thanks for the help everyone

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