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Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-07-2017, 9:57 AM Reply   
Hi guys,

Test drove the Nautique 210 this weekend and really like it. I don't surf behind it 'cause we only done a small demo. The sealer let me drive it , show me the wave with all ballasts full seems really clean. Pretty much love the overall boat and had 28 hours.

The Tige dealer offer me a great deal for a 2017 Tige Z1, both practically at the same price. Boats are pretty much same equipped. Reliability difference, overall quality? I don't really know the Nautique brand, I tried a few but anybody ever had one at the lake or any close friend. What's your thought?

Thank you very much!
Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       08-07-2017, 10:14 AM Reply   
tough call i'd prefer the wider beam of the z1 but i'd go nautique all day. Top notch boats.
Old     (Dandy21)      Join Date: May 2016       08-07-2017, 10:51 AM Reply   
Not to be a total dick, but are you not the guy that has been on a few different boards (at least here and TigeOwners) that has been so very upset with your Tige and the service - or lack there of - of your dealer? I believe that you now realize that any new boat will most likely have some small issues to work out so it is good to see that you have not given up hope on Tige, however the dealer is still the dealer. If they will not provide you with satisfactory support, then I suggest you take your money elsewhere. Now comparing boat to boat, as pointed out, the Z1 has a wider beam (98" - 210 vs. 102" Z1) and the Z1 is also longer (21' - 210 vs. 21'6" Z1). It may not seem like much, but it does add up. Generally speaking a larger hull has the capability to displace more water and will generally set up a better wave (if set up correctly).

Surf Wave to Surf Wave I would say the Z1 is better in stock configuration. Change out the factory sacs in the 210 to 750s and you will have an equal, if not better wave. I have been behind both boats, but not a Z1 with the new TAPS3 configuration.

If you wakeboard quite a bit, I would say that the 210 is the clear winner. It does not seem to be as sensitive to weight side to side as the Z1.

I personally like the LINC screen in the Nautiques over the TT2 that would be in the Z1. Again, personal preference.

Demo them both and figure what YOU and YOUR family/friends like better after all it will be you using it and riding behind it, not us forum members. If you are having issues with a dealer for support, don't expect that to change with a new boat purchase.
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-07-2017, 12:13 PM Reply   
Totally right dandy that's exactly my thought..
like you said I'm very upset with the dealer. Like he says my situation is "very unusual".
I'm kind of certain I'm the first customer to have so many issue with a brand new boat so they trying to do their best and maybe correct that for the future. It's just a guess instead.
but you're not a dick haha.. appreciate all opinions.
situation changes. The rzr need a trans swapping or repairing, mechanics are in vacation and the new trans Is on it's may if he says true. Thing is my boat not gonna be ready before 1 September.. so they are welling to give me a VERY good price on mine and a good price on a new one. A Z1 in stock don't have any more zrz.
So yes it can be an option. Like you said I ain't giving up hope on tige and maybe it was just a lemon and the other one could be have much less issues.

But all that ain't changing the dealer problem like you said.
Thing is nautique dealer offer me much less for the present boat and the nautique is a little more expensive too and already "used".
Like you said I'm not so experimented on buying boats It's only my second and I'm realizing I was very lucky with my last Moomba.

I already demo both, my cousin have a 2016 z1. And the surf wave is longer, nautique instead better interior. Cannot surf behind the boat instead. That's why I posted here to hear some that already surfed behind one.

Thanks all of you guys.
Old    Hunter Forrester (hunter991)      Join Date: Jul 2016       08-07-2017, 12:33 PM Reply   
SAN will have far better resale value IMO
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       08-07-2017, 6:36 PM Reply   
You can go to PlanetNautique forum....to find out more about the 210.
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-07-2017, 9:54 PM Reply   
Quite honestly you're going to take a step down in surfwake when going to 210 instead of the Z1.

You'll give up some pocket size for sure. The 210 is as legit as it comes for a 21ft surf wake, but the Z1 is def tops. The Z1 is like 500lbs more in dry weight as well. The beam is huge. Heavily loading up the 210 also puts you at risk of taking water through the back walkthru. A good driver can easily navigate this aspect but sometimes it sneaks up on you. So depending on how and where you run your Z1 that may be an issue.


Nautique is definitely a higher quality and way more attention to detail . If surfing is your focus and you can stretch it , go for the 230. With that said if you getting a 210 for the price of a Z1 you'd be stupid not to gon210 in my opinion. Especially with your dealer issues.
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-08-2017, 5:59 AM Reply   
Yeah D,
Just did that yesterday haha.

And swatguy,
Thanks for you comment. 230 is totally out of range haha.
Deal is on a 210 and quite the same price.
Like you said I'm really not ready to sign another tige even if they offer me a good price (that is not that good when I think about it)

Z1 is metal flake fully loaded with all the blings and led's everywhere on the boat, it was the 2017 dealer boat show demo. So it was there to impress. But after a night thinking I'm kind of like, they really take me for some stupid guy.
The man have so many issue with his boat, done pretty much 2 or 3 weekends riding with his brand new boat in his whole season and he's ready to sign another brand new! Give him 7k less for his own one resale it the same price he bought it last year or so, sale him a brand new z1 an make another 10k on his head!
Lol.. just thinking about that last night.
Thinking the price on the z1 was huge but when I checked on boattrader and other site how much a 2017 z1 is valued I pretty saw they was selling me the exact same listing price maybe a thousand less but that's all.

Nautique seller instead seems to be at his total cost. Work on my case like crazy trying to save few bucks everywhere to fit my needs and knowing I watch a z1.
like giving me a 2015 boatmate trailer instead of the 2017. exact same trailer just half the price, they used it a little bit on the backyard, looks new couldnt said wich one was the new before cheking them close.
But giving me less for my present Tige. I don't know how to say it in English hahaha but i think it's the interest rate is almost half less either with Nautique.

So with all these things both boats comes at pretty much the same price ( 50$ Per month more for the Nautique)
But I really think like you said I'll be stupid refusing it.
Really sad tho' to realize that tige really doesn't care they could offer me a much better offer to make his customer happy and if I wouldn't checked price on US market and convert it in Canadian ill never saw it has no deal at all.
Old     (Dandy21)      Join Date: May 2016       08-08-2017, 7:52 AM Reply   
Mike - to give us a better idea of your offers, can you lay them out for us
What are they offering you for your trade, what are they selling you the new one for or what is the trade difference. This would help anyone to better determine what may be a better value.

What options are on the 210? Engines in each...

On a side note, I would not look at the difference based on monthly payment. Never look at a deal based on payment difference, find out what the price difference is and work off of that. Then, work with the dealer/banks to get you the best interest rate. Best price + lowest interest = lowest payment.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       08-08-2017, 9:27 AM Reply   
I can GUARANTEE you your not the first person to have these issues with a new Tige!!!!
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-08-2017, 9:48 AM Reply   
Yeah I know RB haha few others on tigeowners had some similar problems.. but don't forget each brand had their own issue too.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       08-08-2017, 10:40 AM Reply   
I worked for a Tige dealership and IMO Tige has more than "the each brand had their own issue too."

After owning 2 new and working for the dealer I can say without a doubt I will never own another one. Why after having multiple issues and, worse yet, having a horrible dealer response experience would you consider another one? I assume in Canada the boating season is short, yes? Then why risk it.

The reason I won't ever own one has little to do with the boat or the dealer. But directly with the company. Things like the national sales manager not returning calls or keeping promises. Going out of his way to dodge my calls when I was told numerous times "I will have a solution tomorrow". I had to borrow peoples cell phones to call because of caller ID. If he saw my cell or the dealership number....no answer. Grab another persons cell...answered 2nd ring. Numerous times. I was treated like that as a boat owner who was a dealership employee!

If thats the support your looking for then I'd buy another one.
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-08-2017, 10:57 AM Reply   
Ok dandy would trying to explain all.
I wasn't willing to give price because maybe Canadian market is different than US.
And I don't know how it works on the US but here interest rates are not negociale with the bank. Just the dealer.
All price USD it will be easier for everybody. Anyway Boat dealer work with US price too and convert it at the end with today's rate.

Best offer for Z1
FULLY loaded, not one option left behind. Metal flake color and prenium decal. Indmar 400.
97 500 USD with the trailer.
4,6% interest rate

Best offer Nautique 210
Pretty fully loaded too just few option left. Gonna be easier if I say options it doesn't have.
Heated seats, bow door panel and base motor PCM zr4
Everything else is there.
Best boat price 100 200 USD with the trailer.
Interest rate 3,3%

That's pretty much all details I can give.
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-08-2017, 10:59 AM Reply   
Yeah RB. I totally understand! Looks like the company have the same look alike

Wow that's suck.
Old    Red Dog (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       08-08-2017, 12:43 PM Reply   
So depending on your financing the nautique is cheaper. By a lot. Nautique all day.
Old     (Dandy21)      Join Date: May 2016       08-08-2017, 12:54 PM Reply   
I am sure that there are some additional costs that your dealer has versus a dealer in the US, but to compare, here is a link to inventory from a dealer in MN - they have Z1s in the Low 90s
http://www.heinenmotorsports.com/tige-boats.html

Maybe this can help with negotiating. I would also suggest to your Tige dealer to look at some other lenders, 1.3% points on a note this large add up FAST

From a financial "investment", I believe the Nautique would be better. Down the line, I think you would see that the Nautique would hold its value better to the point where the price difference would be greater than the $3K up front. Also, at a better interest rate. A boat would be a silly "investment" though.

When we had a Nautique, we very seldom used the heated seat. We used the crap out of the heater though. Odd, I know, maybe we just overlooked it since we didn't have that on previous boats. As nice as it looks, I hesitate about the metal flake. I understand that it is much more difficult and more costly to repair and make blend. Sooner or later scratches will happen. I also don't go for all of the LEDs on the speakers and underwater lights. We don't really boat at night and I also think they are a waste of money - I feel that the depreciation on some of these beauty features is much higher than on the boat itself. It is also more crap that can go wrong and be frustrating. Motor to motor, they spec about the same from what I found. At this point it really should come down to which boat you like better and which dealer will stand behind it. Even though the 210s are a bit smaller than Z1s they don't seem to stick around long on the used market (at least near us).
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-08-2017, 1:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post
Ok dandy would trying to explain all.
I wasn't willing to give price because maybe Canadian market is different than US.
And I don't know how it works on the US but here interest rates are not negociale with the bank. Just the dealer.
All price USD it will be easier for everybody. Anyway Boat dealer work with US price too and convert it at the end with today's rate.

Best offer for Z1
FULLY loaded, not one option left behind. Metal flake color and prenium decal. Indmar 400.
97 500 USD with the trailer.
4,6% interest rate

Best offer Nautique 210
Pretty fully loaded too just few option left. Gonna be easier if I say options it doesn't have.
Heated seats, bow door panel and base motor PCM zr4
Everything else is there.
Best boat price 100 200 USD with the trailer.
Interest rate 3,3%

That's pretty much all details I can give.
They are selling 210s for over 100K???

That is absolutely crazy. That boat will not be worth that in the years to come.
Old    Matt S (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       08-08-2017, 1:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post

Best offer for Z1
FULLY loaded, not one option left behind. Metal flake color and prenium decal. Indmar 400.
97 500 USD with the trailer.
4,6% interest rate
.
I don't have a dog in this hunt but don't the Z1's have an option for the 440 with the 400 being standard?

As a side note, you primary issue is with the dealer, not necessarily the brand. Have you tried talking with some of the Nautique dealers customers about mx issues and the dealers response? It would just suck to do all this work, get rid of a wave you love (per your other thread), only to find out that this is a systematic problem with all dealers due to the fact that you live in a different country than all of these manufactures....
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       08-08-2017, 1:53 PM Reply   
IMO, the ZR409 engine by PCM is a lot better. You have 409HP with 492ft lbs of torque. I have that engine in my SV244 and once I add 5k lbs of ballast and 8 people, still no issue with power and its pushing almost 12,000lbs thru the water. In a 21ft boat, this will be a monster. You can also use 87 gas without issue, I only use ethenol free gas but a lot of people run regular gas...just add the blue stabil. My boat surfs fully loaded ballast at 11mph, 3,400rpm and I use an average of 4.5 gallons per hour of fuel. Total winner here all the way around

I know less about this engine, but looking it up, the 400 Raptor....(guessing 400HP) but with 400ft lbs of torque and is made for the 20-22ft boats ("purpose built to plane these size boats quickly"). 89 octane recommended (so you spend more there too on the higher octane fuel)

No comparison in my opinion since torque curve is essentially what moves the boat, not HP and you are looking at difference of 492 in PCM to 400 in Indmar.
Old     (Dandy21)      Join Date: May 2016       08-08-2017, 2:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitysurf View Post
IMO, the ZR409 engine by PCM is a lot better. You have 409HP with 492ft lbs of torque. I have that engine in my SV244 and once I add 5k lbs of ballast and 8 people, still no issue with power and its pushing almost 12,000lbs thru the water. In a 21ft boat, this will be a monster. You can also use 87 gas without issue, I only use ethenol free gas but a lot of people run regular gas...just add the blue stabil. My boat surfs fully loaded ballast at 11mph, 3,400rpm and I use an average of 4.5 gallons per hour of fuel. Total winner here all the way around

I know less about this engine, but looking it up, the 400 Raptor....(guessing 400HP) but with 400ft lbs of torque and is made for the 20-22ft boats ("purpose built to plane these size boats quickly"). 89 octane recommended (so you spend more there too on the higher octane fuel)

No comparison in my opinion since torque curve is essentially what moves the boat, not HP and you are looking at difference of 492 in PCM to 400 in Indmar.
Nautiques site is showing the 210 with a motor of 400 HP/400 ft/lbs torque
http://www.nautique.com/models/super-air-nautique-210

I am not sure why, but I also feel better about the PCM motor, even if they are rated the same. The PCM motors seem to have been a bit more trouble free than the Indmar Raptors. I have nothing factual to back this up with other than observation/perception.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       08-08-2017, 3:13 PM Reply   
I think the engines are comparable. I think PCM is over engineered for what it is, I have a couple examples but I won't bother describing. I like the Indmar crank driven raw water pump so you don't have to remove drive belt to change impeller.

The right propeller is gonna matter a lot. So many people are overbuying motors instead of looking at the motor/prop combo.
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-08-2017, 5:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
They are selling 210s for over 100K???

That is absolutely crazy. That boat will not be worth that in the years to come.
Canadian market , loaded up with just about everything including the big engine. 100,000 is solid price for 210.


Mid to low 90's all day here for boat like that and an x10 loaded would be over 100k easy
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-09-2017, 5:11 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
Canadian market , loaded up with just about everything including the big engine. 100,000 is solid price for 210.


Mid to low 90's all day here for boat like that and an x10 loaded would be over 100k easy
Exactly.. on US market all 2017 Nautique 210 are at least 97 up to 109k fully loaded.
Instead on Z1 89 to 97.

Nautique price is by far more dealed than the z1.
Seller showed me the listing prices for 2018. 210's change a bit it would have the new gs dash but retail price loaded same as this one is 112 000.. here in Canada is are very fair deal.
Thanks a lot dandy for all your concern
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-09-2017, 5:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnMac42 View Post
I don't have a dog in this hunt but don't the Z1's have an option for the 440 with the 400 being standard?

As a side note, you primary issue is with the dealer, not necessarily the brand. Have you tried talking with some of the Nautique dealers customers about mx issues and the dealers response? It would just suck to do all this work, get rid of a wave you love (per your other thread), only to find out that this is a systematic problem with all dealers due to the fact that you live in a different country than all of these manufactures....
You are totally right Matt Z1 have the option of a 440 indmar. Looks like it is not fully loaded..
Because sure is a 400 I saw it.

And for the dealer like you said that's my primary concern obviously so that's what I'm trying to dig since 2 days on Nautique forums and contact all around the nautique dealer.

Thing is the nautique dealer is a Moomba/Supra/Centurion/Nautique and it's big even huge dealer. The owners have 3 dealers in the region. And can guaranteed me that any issues are repaired within 10days or they pass pretty same valued loaners. Unless I make a 6ft scare hole in the hull haha.. like he said. Maybe that's just sweet talking but. Seems like serious business too he showed me the 2014 trophee best after sale services in all nautique dealer in Canada. So I'm pretty convinced that my dealer issue would be solved. Hope so haha
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-09-2017, 5:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandy21 View Post
I am sure that there are some additional costs that your dealer has versus a dealer in the US, but to compare, here is a link to inventory from a dealer in MN - they have Z1s in the Low 90s
http://www.heinenmotorsports.com/tige-boats.html

Maybe this can help with negotiating. I would also suggest to your Tige dealer to look at some other lenders, 1.3% points on a note this large add up FAST

From a financial "investment", I believe the Nautique would be better. Down the line, I think you would see that the Nautique would hold its value better to the point where the price difference would be greater than the $3K up front. Also, at a better interest rate. A boat would be a silly "investment" though.

When we had a Nautique, we very seldom used the heated seat. We used the crap out of the heater though. Odd, I know, maybe we just overlooked it since we didn't have that on previous boats. As nice as it looks, I hesitate about the metal flake. I understand that it is much more difficult and more costly to repair and make blend. Sooner or later scratches will happen. I also don't go for all of the LEDs on the speakers and underwater lights. We don't really boat at night and I also think they are a waste of money - I feel that the depreciation on some of these beauty features is much higher than on the boat itself. It is also more crap that can go wrong and be frustrating. Motor to motor, they spec about the same from what I found. At this point it really should come down to which boat you like better and which dealer will stand behind it. Even though the 210s are a bit smaller than Z1s they don't seem to stick around long on the used market (at least near us).
Totally right dandy
my wife is in love with the heater option too and never would go without that's for sure hahaha.
When you don't have it you say it's no use but when you taste the feeling of the heater at April or September sunset ride is just wow.

Like you said many options are not necessary too I know but the boat is already built.. we tried to built a 2018 Nautique too, more basic just with options that I need. Like all base color, full ballast option, base speaker and tower speaker, Bimini top, heater and other "nessecary" things and it was not a pretty good deal.. when I know an easily 10K more loaded 2017 is far less
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-09-2017, 2:33 PM Reply   
If you have a Centurion dealer by all means check one of those out. Arguably the best surfwakes in the market. Nautique bought them , even before the purchase Crnturion was pumping out high quality boats with rock solid construction. Being so surf oriented you'd be silly not to pop in one of their boats and take it for a demo. Some of the easiest out of the box surfwakes to dial. Price point is going to be under what you're eying up now too
Old    Mike Del Monte (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       08-10-2017, 4:58 AM Reply   
Yeah I know swatguy Thanks for the advices.
Since Nautique bought centurion our local Nautique become a centurion dealer too obviously.
Price is good but here listing price of ri217 and 210 are pretty much the same.

love the ri217 too but it's just too big. Lake restriction 4400pounds and/or 22ft.
And it's really a big boat, 5500lbs dry, really high too. Can't consider it like a 2016 g21
It take big and deep depth lake for boats like that. 210 stay more maneuverable in smaller lake.

But I agree with you. Centurion is my top 1 boat for 2017 quality,price, overall, wave.
Sur i would take the Ri for the same price if situation permit it!

Last edited by Mike88; 08-10-2017 at 4:59 AM. Reason: Tapping

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