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Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-07-2017, 1:42 PM Reply   
Boat ran perfect 4 days ago. Ran it all day, but I tried to put it in the water today and it wouldn't start. It's trying to turn over, but it's acting like it's not getting fuel.

I checked all of the fuses I could find (By the relays) checked both the relays, and looked everywhere for loose wires, but I didn't find anything wrong.

Could the fuel pump have just gone bad instantly?
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       07-07-2017, 1:46 PM Reply   
Must be a WW thing....mines doing the same thing. Ive been messing with it for a week and a half.....shops in town are 5 weeks behind. Good luck...let me know what you find cause im OBVIOUSLY overlooking something.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-07-2017, 1:57 PM Reply   
Same here... Boat shops are almost a month behind.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-07-2017, 2:10 PM Reply   
unfortunately, it sounds like a fuel pump issue. Just replaced mine over winter.

for black scorpions:
should be able to hear the fuel pump on starboard side kick on for a few seconds to pressurize fuel rail. if you're not hearing it, your pumpS are shot. yes there are TWO. open the hatch and turn key to run, not start, run.

the other is right by port side stringer below floor. the starboard side is higher up and more audible. yes they both go at the same time. Sierra pumps are about 750 total. Merc pumps are MUCH higher. Sierra pumps have been great for about 20 hours so far.

check pressure from schrader valve right under engine cover. not the upholstered sunpad, the actual engine cover with the black bug on it. it's on the starboard side toward the transom. you do not have to remove cover to check pressure. rent a fuel pressure guage.

GL

Last edited by denverd1; 07-07-2017 at 2:19 PM.
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       07-07-2017, 2:25 PM Reply   
I got pressure.....and spark....mine will run for about 5 seconds then shuts off. About to just replace everything I can think of LOL. Driving me insane.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-07-2017, 2:25 PM Reply   
It's the 350 Merc Cruiser Mag MPI. I only found one what I think is a fuel pump. It's on the starboard side at the lower end of the engine compartment. It clearly has a fuel line to a fuel filter that leads into it. How/where could I find a replacement pump?
Old    Jmanst15 (jmanst15)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-07-2017, 2:32 PM Reply   
make sure your red lanyard is plugged in solidly
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-07-2017, 2:37 PM Reply   
And your in neutral!!!!
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-07-2017, 2:41 PM Reply   
Red lanyard? Idk, what red lanyard you're referring to, but the boat won't even turn over unless it's in neutral... So I had it in neutral.
Old    Scott (chilidog)      Join Date: Dec 2007       07-07-2017, 11:04 PM Reply   
What do you mean trying to turn over? It either turns over (starter is turning motor properly) or its not. I had a problem on my sanger where my battery terminals had corroded internally (factory ones) and I had to cut off and put new ends on, scrape the battery posts real good and coat with vaseline. Never had a problem again. Boat would start fine when jumped but wouldn't turn over at all other times until fixed as I said above. I had plenty of battery power, just bad connections.
Also isn't there a red breaker button somewhere at the front of the engine compartment?

A fuel filter/water separator change is quick and cheap ($30) and may be good to do while checking your fuel rail pressure. Also check for any corrosion inside your distributor cap. You can pull a spark plus as well and use pliers to ground it and crank over the motor and have someone see if it is sparking.

Fuel or spark are your possibilities if the engine is turning over at proper speed off the starter. If it's not turning over at all that would be a battery or connection or starter issue. Could be a bad ignition switch too but that's a long shot.

I can't remember but I don't think sangers had the emergency lanyard? I had an 06 V215
Old    Jmanst15 (jmanst15)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-07-2017, 11:30 PM Reply   
Old    Jmanst15 (jmanst15)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-07-2017, 11:31 PM Reply   
if this kill switch doesn't have a good connection or isnt installed at all, the motor will turn but never fire. Acting exactly like its not getting any fuel.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-08-2017, 7:32 AM Reply   
It doesn't have a red lanyard and never has as far as I know. I guess it's possible that the kill switch got flipped. Does anyone know where the kill switch is on this Boat?

The boat is turning at the correct speed. It's not a battery issue. It could be a power to the fuel pump issue, idk I'm gonna pressure test and hopefully change the fuel filter today.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-08-2017, 7:41 AM Reply   
Okay, the fuel pump is good as far as I can tell. It's coming on and priming the line... I'm going to change the fuel filter and check for and filter/fuel screens in the lines. Maybe when I put 91 in it from a small town gas station, it was old, dirty gas.
Old    Jmanst15 (jmanst15)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-09-2017, 3:12 PM Reply   
Really sounds like a kill switch issue. The switch will with hold the spark and that really sounds like ur situation. It should be located near the ignition and looks like a small red button with black circular housing. At least on most boats...good luck
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       07-09-2017, 4:03 PM Reply   
Sounds like we have exactly the same issue....I don't have the red lanyard kill switch either. Ive even replace distributor now. BUT mine will at least run for a few seconds. The more ive been reading, mine sounds like the ECU is shutting it off because of bad timing. I ordered a small plug that's supposed to by pass the it and put the engine into TIMING mode. If that doesn't work looks like itll head to the shop and just lose another month. ( which honestly...it would have already been there for 3 weeks now so id PROB be up and running by now )
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-10-2017, 7:41 AM Reply   
We found an electronic air valve that appeared to have been oozing molten plastic... Did a little digging and found that those valves are notorious for getting stuck and starving the engine of air on start up and idle... dunno if that's the fix, but figured we aught to replace it regardless since it clearly wasn't in great shape.

@jmanst15 man, I hope it's that simple, but I've been over that boat with a fine toothed comb trying to find a kill switch. I haven't found anything that even remotely resembles a kill switch... but I shot an email out to Sanger asking them for a user's manual if they have one or even just phone assistance from someone that knows the boat well.... Hopefully they can direct me to the kill switch if one exists.

@soonerbilly You got me all excited with the "sooner" I thought maybe you were an Okie too lol, but yeah, I know a couple car mechanics that wanna take a shot at it so I'll probably take it in for them to take a gander at before I throw myself on a month long waitlist. I'll definitely keep you in the know once we fix the issue.
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       07-10-2017, 8:23 AM Reply   
IM an OKIE at heart.....BOOMER SOONER!!! ONce thgis plug thing for the timing mode crap comes in, I'll give it one more shot. Then if that don't work its off to the shop.
Old    Tom (TomH)      Join Date: Jan 2014       07-10-2017, 10:42 AM Reply   
Crawl under and look at the back of your ignition switch and make sure your run wire didn't come off. Like others have said, your problem sounds like a kill switch which interrupts the run-signal, but still allows the crank signal to the starter. If you do have a kill switch, follow the run wire and if you have one it'll be in-line somewhere. If not, it's also possible your ignition switch is failing. You can meter across it in run/on to make sure it's getting power across it.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-10-2017, 2:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basher33 View Post
Okay, the fuel pump is good as far as I can tell. It's coming on and priming the line... I'm going to change the fuel filter and check for and filter/fuel screens in the lines. Maybe when I put 91 in it from a small town gas station, it was old, dirty gas.
good!! its a PITA to change pumps
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-10-2017, 2:40 PM Reply   
no kill switch or safety lanyard
Old     (josnow)      Join Date: Oct 2011       07-11-2017, 5:22 AM Reply   
Have you tried starting the boat while giving it some throttle? My 350 Merc done the same thing a couple of weeks ago and it ended up being the IAC valve. It wouldn't start like normal but would start while giving throttle. As soon as I moved the lever back to neutral the engine would die. I was on vacation and desperate to get the boat back on the water, done a lot of research and learned the IAC valve for the 350 Merc is the same as a 2002 Ford Windstar. Went to the local auto part store, $55 and 15 minutes later, back on the water.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-11-2017, 7:30 AM Reply   
The boat does not allow you to try and start it while giving it throttle. As soon as you move the throttle out of neutral, it kicks everything off, but I checked out my IAV valve. The valve had been spitting out some melted plastic.... Went ahead and ordered a new IAC valve, gasket, and muffler. I'm hoping it's really this simple of an issue. If not, it looks like I have to pull the engine in order to work on the high pressure fuel pump and regulator. From what I can see, it looks like the (Fuel Cooler?) Housing is on the bottom of the engine and almost impossible to get to without pulling the engine out.

As far as the kill switch goes, I searched that whole damn boat for anything that could possibly be considered a kill switch and came up with nothing. I followed the ignition line, the throttle line, etc. I found nada.

Kind of a side note, but from what I can see there's no screen or even an in-line fuel filter before the fuel hits the feeder/primer pump. After the feeder pump, there is a fuel/water separator filter, but no sort of filter before the pump (That I'm seeing). Would it be a bad idea to put an in-line fuel filter in the soft line prior to the fuel hitting the feeder pump?
Old    Tom (TomH)      Join Date: Jan 2014       07-11-2017, 9:35 AM Reply   
Did you actually check the pressure at the rail (on the schraeder valve)? If you haven't, I'd start there before talking about pulling pumps. If the pressure is low, then check out the pumps.

Regarding the IAC - was the plastic oozing out of the motor/valve itself, our out of the IAC passage (which should be under the flame arrestor). It's possible this is causing your no start either through a blocked IAC passage or if the valve failed with the pintle all the way out, as it would then get little to no air for start-up. If you pull the IAC valve off the throttle body, you may get it to start by getting some air in through the valve's port.
Old    Red Dog (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       07-11-2017, 9:56 AM Reply   
You should be able to keep it neutral while giving throttle.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-11-2017, 10:08 AM Reply   
that button under the throttle. pull it to shift out of neutral with boat off. I don't think it will help your cause, just FYI
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-11-2017, 10:12 AM Reply   
please don't pull your engine over fuel pumps. not the easiest to reach, but not 'pull the engine' difficult.

yes, check your fuel pressure at the rail!!!
Old    Red Dog (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       07-11-2017, 11:20 AM Reply   
Check your fuel pressure man!
Old    Red Dog (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       07-11-2017, 11:21 AM Reply   
Did you check the distributor cap? If not kick yourself in the balls shoulda been first thing checked. Also make sure battery connections are clean and tight.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-11-2017, 12:26 PM Reply   
Yeah, I was planning on checking the fuel pressure at the rail (Before messing with the rest of the fuel system), but that IAC was clearly messed up so the plan is to replace it before doing any further diagnostics. The IAC valve was oozing plastic up by the electrical connection under the flame arrestor (A significant amount of plastic. It almost looked like there was a tab on the valve until close inspection showed it was melted plastic that had oozed out).

I plan to check the fuel pressure if replacing the IAC doesn't fix the problem, but I don't have the tools to perform the pressure test and will have to go lease them in order to perform the test. It is the next step though if replacing the IAC doesn't fix the problem.

I will check the distributor cap. I honestly hadn't even thought of that.... *Kicks self in balls* The battery connections were the first thing that I check. I found a loose ground wire and corrected the error while still on the load ramp... but it didn't make a difference.

Thanks Nacho for that tip. I was curious what that metal (button/bar) did. As I said, the boat and boats in general are still super new to me lol I'm trying to learn as quickly as possible, and I very much appreciate all the tips and feedback from everybody!
Old    Noah Brown (doubleup16)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-11-2017, 12:48 PM Reply   
I'm hoping you can get back on the water soon.
I had a bad IAC valve and it made starting almost impossible. The only way I could get going was to pull the tab below the throttle lever and give it gas while cranking. It would then idle, but just barely.
Like someone mentioned, lots of 5.7l car/trucks had an identical IAC.
Old    Chris De Leon (flatbroke)      Join Date: Jun 2013       07-13-2017, 12:11 AM Reply   
Do your gauges work when you turn the key to the ignition position? Gas gauge at correct level? V drive warning light lights up?

Mine was doing the exact same thing. Cranked over fine but wouldn't start. I noticed that the fuel level wouldn't change and the v drive warning light never lit up.

Turned out that the ignition wire coming off of the switch had a break in it from one of those blue trailer light splices that the P.O. put in it. I wiggled it a little and it lit right off.

Turns out that if there is no power to the gauges then there is also no power to the ECM which controls well, everything including whether it runs or not.

FWIW, the trailer splice (don't know what they're really called) was used to tie in the depth gauge. I didn't have either the depth gauge start up alarm or the "key on" alarm when it wouldn't start. Fixed the splice and now all is normal.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-16-2017, 6:11 AM Reply   
Okay, well I'm still not positive what was wrong. We replaced the fuel/water separator filter and the IAC valve. Both seemed to help, but the boat still just wouldn't quite start. Ended up giving it a little throttle and she started right up and would stay started even if brought back down to idle.

Fast-Forward to a day of playing on the lake and now she starts right up without any throttle at all... Idk if it was a weird combination of the IAC starting to go out and maybe bad/dirty gas? Not totally sure, but hey, at least she's working now!
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-16-2017, 6:13 AM Reply   
I'm seriously considering putting an in-line fuel filter in the soft line before the fuel hits the primer pump. Has anyone done this, and/or what're y'alls thoughts on adding an extra filter? Do you think the added flow resistance could/would mess up the fuel pump pressures?
Old    Chris De Leon (flatbroke)      Join Date: Jun 2013       07-16-2017, 9:35 AM Reply   
Sounds like it was the IAC. How much time did you have on the new IAC before it started running well? Sometimes the ECM has to complete a "relearn" when parts are replaced. On most FI engines, this can be 50+ miles of driving that span the entire operating range of the engine. Not sure how that translates into boat hours but pretty sure it is the same relearn process. Makes sense seeing that you had to crack the throttle until the ECM was able to do it on its own.

Did you cut open the fuel filter? Id just run a high quality filter / separator (Wix) and call it a day. If you're getting a lot of trash in your fuel, Id start getting fuel somewhere else.
Old    Mitchell Spaulding (Basher33)      Join Date: Jun 2017       07-16-2017, 11:18 AM Reply   
That would make sense. I guess we'll see if she starts right up cold next time we go out.

No, I didn't cut open the old filter, but we did put a WIX on it when we replaced the old one. I'm not sure if the fuel was the issue. We put some 91 in it from a small town gas station and were a little worried that it was old/dirty fuel because nobody buys 91 out there, and that is the plan. We won't be fueling up there anymore.
Old    Chris De Leon (flatbroke)      Join Date: Jun 2013       07-16-2017, 5:09 PM Reply   
Well, at least it seems fixed for now. Wondering what would have made the IAC melt though? I do know that they need cleaning occasionally or they will stick. Maybe thats it?

In any case, good its running now. Go enjoy the rest of the summer before its over!
Old    Tom (TomH)      Join Date: Jan 2014       07-17-2017, 9:25 AM Reply   
Yea, that definitely sounds like an IAC relearn. Congrats on getting her sorted.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-17-2017, 2:16 PM Reply   
good news!

keep my fuel pump info handy. It's a matter of time with ethanol mixed fuel....

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