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Old    Jordan McCormick (mcwake)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-03-2017, 12:15 PM Reply   
I keep going back and forth on buying a new boat (I work part time for a dealer so I can get one at wholesale) or buying an older boat and using a shaper. Payment wise it will be about the same but one will have a 20-year payment and one will be a 10. My deal would require me to own it for two years before I could sell it. So I start leaning towards used boats when factoring these things in.

So I was wondering what boats you have ridden on with a shaper and which ones put out legit surf wakes or crappy wakes. So I can weight my options and decide on which road to take.
Old    Brian Jones (Onebadssv)      Join Date: Feb 2016       07-03-2017, 12:47 PM Reply   
If you can get one at wholesale then I would say go that route no doubt. I just upgraded from a 2004 Supra to a new t23 and it's night and day. The Supra was a great boat but old boats sacked to death with people having to sit certain places etc is a pain compared to a new boat you flip a switch. If the payment is nearly the same then who cares about the term... own a badass boat 2 years and sell for what you paid ( since you get a great deal ). Or own a mediocre boat for 2 years and then sell hopefully for what you paid and upgrade lol.
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       07-03-2017, 10:22 PM Reply   
With used boat market like it is, you are likely to get all your money back after 2 years if you can get wholesale price on a used boat (for instance an 09 or 10 are practically holding their value if taken care of). New boat, even at a great deal you will likely take a hit...and less people are able to afford the higher price bracket when it comes time to sell. Also on new boat, 8 of 10 new boats deal with some warranty issues that take you off water some, this is EVERY brand right now having some quality issues or normal 1st generation gremlins/kinks to work out. IF the economy were to take a hit again (historically it happens about every 10years), it will also be easier to get rid of a boat that does not require a buyer that is impervious to the market.
Also, shapers have changed the market and allow just about anyone to be able to make their boat a "surf boat", maybe not a world class wave...but a decent one and because of that a percentage of people are going used. Just make sure you get a deep V boat that will make a great wave. I have a newer boat capable of making a killer listed wave, but I use a shaper cause the wave is longer, the push is better and its simple to switch sides. I was actually planning to upgrade my boat to new next Spring since I have been on 3yr cycle and wanted a modern "surf system" since mine is 2014 (bought in 15) which is year before they came out. Now however, I don't need one and why get rid of an awesome boat that i don't owe money on to get something that wont give me a significantly better wave... but I have a payment and start high depreciation all over again. Biggest hits are taken on first 3-4yrs (especially the first 2yr being the worst). Just my opinion, everyone looks at it differently tho.
That said, you only live once....so do what makes you happiest
Old    Jordan McCormick (mcwake)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-03-2017, 11:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitysurf View Post
With used boat market like it is, you are likely to get all your money back after 2 years if you can get wholesale price on a used boat (for instance an 09 or 10 are practically holding their value if taken care of). New boat, even at a great deal you will likely take a hit...and less people are able to afford the higher price bracket when it comes time to sell. Also on new boat, 8 of 10 new boats deal with some warranty issues that take you off water some, this is EVERY brand right now having some quality issues or normal 1st generation gremlins/kinks to work out. IF the economy were to take a hit again (historically it happens about every 10years), it will also be easier to get rid of a boat that does not require a buyer that is impervious to the market.
Also, shapers have changed the market and allow just about anyone to be able to make their boat a "surf boat", maybe not a world class wave...but a decent one and because of that a percentage of people are going used. Just make sure you get a deep V boat that will make a great wave. I have a newer boat capable of making a killer listed wave, but I use a shaper cause the wave is longer, the push is better and its simple to switch sides. I was actually planning to upgrade my boat to new next Spring since I have been on 3yr cycle and wanted a modern "surf system" since mine is 2014 (bought in 15) which is year before they came out. Now however, I don't need one and why get rid of an awesome boat that i don't owe money on to get something that wont give me a significantly better wave... but I have a payment and start high depreciation all over again. Biggest hits are taken on first 3-4yrs (especially the first 2yr being the worst). Just my opinion, everyone looks at it differently tho.
That said, you only live once....so do what makes you happiest
Thanks, I work for Centurion/Supreme dealer so the new boat would most likely be the supreme 238 or the new centurion FI that is coming out. But if an older enzo comes in on trade for $30K or less it would be hard not to jump on that. I am worried about the economy and being stuck with something.

I could sell the boat after 6 months as long as I don't sell it in Utah. That is the deal I made with the dealer.
Old    David (lipslide08)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-04-2017, 8:56 AM Reply   
New boat under market value is going to be a better deal than a used boat at market value as the others have stated. You probably won't lose more than your down payment in value and it will be easy to sell if you ever have to. Inboards are great because you don't get upside down the way you do with almost any other toys you can buy.
Old    David (lipslide08)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-04-2017, 9:01 AM Reply   
Oh and I have only seen the new centurions online but they appear to be top of the line. I wouldn't be surprised if given the chance to demo all the companies flagships that Centurion would be at the top of my favorites list.
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       07-05-2017, 5:57 PM Reply   
I may be biased, but in my opinion Centurion is the best. They are one of the few brands that are not plagued by QC issues on new boats (they are hand made tho and will all have some issues, just think the factories are pushing quantity now over quality and it sucks for new owners)....Centurion is having some 1st gen issues with the RI boats (especially the 257) but that happens on every 1st gen. I also know I am not "supposed" to know about the FI yet....but damn, sick looking boat. If they keep the price at 100k or less I think that is gonna be a major seller. I love the look and what they have done with it! Cant wait to demo one.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but if you got used, you would also get "wholesale" on that correct? Basically trade in price which would be well under market value for sure....which basically means if market holds you use it for 2 years and lose ZERO...on new whether you get wholesale or not you are gonna lose something and down payment is 15-20% on a toy. If you lose the down payment.....its $10-$15k for 2yrs of use.
Some of the boats between 2005-2008 (In the 30k range) are not gonna drop in price much (if any) since new boat prices that increase every year are holding up the used market. Will it be easier to sell a $30k boat.....or $80-$90k boat (Probable value after 2yrs).....my guess is that 10-15% of boat buyers can afford to finance a USED boat at $80-90k (especially private sale when you dont have a "go-to bank for financing) cause interest rates are not as good as incentives when buying new.....but probably 50% or more of boat buyers are looking to spend $30-$40k. That is the range that "most" can afford or more importantly are willing to pay.
Again, just my opinion. Even when I buy new, I usually buy a leftover cause you don't take that 1st years hit on depreciation which is the worst. I got my 2014.....brand new in March of 2015. Instead of msrp of $115k+....I got it for $83k out the door. Value today if I were to sell would be +/-$70k. That is not terrible by any means but certainly not cheap either.
Either way bro, good luck and congrats. Great position to be in no matter what you decide to do. Boating/surfing is my prozac, well worth the money to me to have that release. YOLO (You only live once)
Old    Jordan McCormick (mcwake)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-07-2017, 2:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitysurf View Post
I may be biased, but in my opinion Centurion is the best. They are one of the few brands that are not plagued by QC issues on new boats (they are hand made tho and will all have some issues, just think the factories are pushing quantity now over quality and it sucks for new owners)....Centurion is having some 1st gen issues with the RI boats (especially the 257) but that happens on every 1st gen. I also know I am not "supposed" to know about the FI yet....but damn, sick looking boat. If they keep the price at 100k or less I think that is gonna be a major seller. I love the look and what they have done with it! Cant wait to demo one.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but if you got used, you would also get "wholesale" on that correct? Basically trade in price which would be well under market value for sure....which basically means if market holds you use it for 2 years and lose ZERO...on new whether you get wholesale or not you are gonna lose something and down payment is 15-20% on a toy. If you lose the down payment.....its $10-$15k for 2yrs of use.
Some of the boats between 2005-2008 (In the 30k range) are not gonna drop in price much (if any) since new boat prices that increase every year are holding up the used market. Will it be easier to sell a $30k boat.....or $80-$90k boat (Probable value after 2yrs).....my guess is that 10-15% of boat buyers can afford to finance a USED boat at $80-90k (especially private sale when you dont have a "go-to bank for financing) cause interest rates are not as good as incentives when buying new.....but probably 50% or more of boat buyers are looking to spend $30-$40k. That is the range that "most" can afford or more importantly are willing to pay.
Again, just my opinion. Even when I buy new, I usually buy a leftover cause you don't take that 1st years hit on depreciation which is the worst. I got my 2014.....brand new in March of 2015. Instead of msrp of $115k+....I got it for $83k out the door. Value today if I were to sell would be +/-$70k. That is not terrible by any means but certainly not cheap either.
Either way bro, good luck and congrats. Great position to be in no matter what you decide to do. Boating/surfing is my prozac, well worth the money to me to have that release. YOLO (You only live once)
Thanks for the input. I work for a centurion and supreme dealer part time. They have told me I can buy a boat at dealer cost, so wholesale. I like the 217 and the new FI that we don't know about has my attention. I also really like the Supreme 238. If I buy new I will rent out my boat through a broker to offset the cost. Or I could buy a used enzo or avalanche and slap a shaper and some additional ballast and have a decent boat to play with, but not rent it out, unless I want too. So I share your same bias. Plus I really like the president Paul Singer. I think he is taking the company is an awesome direction.

The other part of my question is what boats surf well with a shaper on them?

Thanks for your input and advice.
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       07-07-2017, 7:37 PM Reply   
Shaper on older boats...probably Tige and Centurion due to their Deep V...(probably others I dont know about too)
Shaper on newer boats, a lot of them as long as good deep hull since that is the key to displacing the most water.
I get a KICKASS wave on my newer SV244 using a Nauticurl suck gate...lots of people have posted great pics and reviews using all kinds of different brands of shapers, sounds like they all mostly do the same thing. I like the quality of the Nauticurl and now they have floating model too...think for like $229.

Renting boat is good way to get back some of the money as long as people are taking care of it...or you provide a captain and they just "use" the boat. In my area, a few boats that are rented with captain for like $750 day (more on holidays)...$150-$200hr depending on the boat. I would be scared to rent out without captain cause you know half would not know how to drive it and the other half would dog it. But guess if you get enough revenue back, it would be worth it, I am just to anal to do it with mine.
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       07-07-2017, 7:38 PM Reply   
Check out CenturionCrew Forum...lots of info on the Supreme 238 (great reviews)...as well as all the Centurions. Not heard anything bad about any of the RI's except the shaft angle of the 2016 RI237 limiting the size of prop.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-08-2017, 12:14 AM Reply   
Okay, how does someone who works part time for a boat dealer have enough money to buy more than groceries? For good advice, we need a better picture of your situation. Still living with mom & dad? Got another job too? Trust fund? Where will you store a boat? What if your boat dealer boss lays you off?
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-09-2017, 12:51 PM Reply   
If you're looking at 10-20 year loans you can't afford those boats, you just might not figure that out until you have it for a while and realize what a burden it is. Also, why bother if you're talking about selling this hypothetical boat in two years? Figure out what you can afford first. That means not borrowing money for a toy, or having the cash but investing it instead and borrowing at a favorable interest rate (debatable but that would be no more than 3% and only 0% is worth considering a loan IMO). Then figure out what boat within that budget you'd be happy with for at least a few years and find one in acceptable condition.

I'm guessing boats within your budget will have already depreciated to a stable value and if you decide to sell it you'll only have operating and maintenance costs, maybe even make a few bucks.
Old    D (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       07-09-2017, 8:10 PM Reply   
Definitely a lot of associated costs that come with boating. 500-1000 or so just to get all the life jackets and other necessities to make you legal, storage... since if you leave it outside it wont look new for long, insurance costs (800-1000yr for new boat), tow vehicle or dry storage (3000-5000yr), fuel and upkeep (depends on how much you drive), etc. Hard to count on rental income, guess it depends on your broker and area you live in but make sure YOU can cover all costs and you don't HAVE to have that income to make the payment. If you can do it, do it...just go in with your eyes wide open. The payment is only one of the costs. If you default then you lose your down payment and credit is shot for 7yrs and not an easy world to live in with bad credit.
Old    Jordan McCormick (mcwake)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-12-2017, 7:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Okay, how does someone who works part time for a boat dealer have enough money to buy more than groceries? For good advice, we need a better picture of your situation. Still living with mom & dad? Got another job too? Trust fund? Where will you store a boat? What if your boat dealer boss lays you off?
I work full time in the wake industry as a sales rep for a few brands. I have become super good friends with this dealer so they let me sell for them part time and help out when they need it over the years. I have done a lot of business development opportunities and I do their email marketing as well. So it works out well for both of us.

But I sell cable parks full time so they like having me around to help out their pro shop business getting them into cable parks
Old    Jordan McCormick (mcwake)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-12-2017, 7:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitysurf View Post
Definitely a lot of associated costs that come with boating. 500-1000 or so just to get all the life jackets and other necessities to make you legal, storage... since if you leave it outside it wont look new for long, insurance costs (800-1000yr for new boat), tow vehicle or dry storage (3000-5000yr), fuel and upkeep (depends on how much you drive), etc. Hard to count on rental income, guess it depends on your broker and area you live in but make sure YOU can cover all costs and you don't HAVE to have that income to make the payment. If you can do it, do it...just go in with your eyes wide open. The payment is only one of the costs. If you default then you lose your down payment and credit is shot for 7yrs and not an easy world to live in with bad credit.
Yeah I hear you, thanks for your input, I have hookups on some of that, like my father in law owns a storage unit complex next to the lake and I am a sales rep for body glove so vests are super cheap. I am more concerned about maintenance costs than anything. But I am leaning towards keeping it lean. Just need get the wife to sign off on it
Old    Jordan McCormick (mcwake)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-12-2017, 7:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post
If you're looking at 10-20 year loans you can't afford those boats, you just might not figure that out until you have it for a while and realize what a burden it is. Also, why bother if you're talking about selling this hypothetical boat in two years? Figure out what you can afford first. That means not borrowing money for a toy, or having the cash but investing it instead and borrowing at a favorable interest rate (debatable but that would be no more than 3% and only 0% is worth considering a loan IMO). Then figure out what boat within that budget you'd be happy with for at least a few years and find one in acceptable condition.

I'm guessing boats within your budget will have already depreciated to a stable value and if you decide to sell it you'll only have operating and maintenance costs, maybe even make a few bucks.
Thanks for your insight sometimes I get caught up in what I can afford and what I should afford is a different story. Your right I was looking into renting the boat out and flipping it but I don't want an economy to crash and get stuck with this. My buddy is doing it now and making good money on it. But we both know it will only last so long.

I wouldn't do a new boat with out doing the rental but his has been rented all summer that he hasn't had a chance to really take it out.

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