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Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       04-28-2017, 5:16 PM Reply   
I am estimating this will give the rider 30% more hang time and 30% softer landings. It has been a ton of work and we are about to see if it pays off: It will make the tower on my Axis A22 about 36" higher.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
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Last edited by sunsport; 04-28-2017 at 5:24 PM. Reason: grammer error
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       04-28-2017, 5:31 PM Reply   
This concept was thrown around years ago...
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Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       04-28-2017, 5:52 PM Reply   
Yeah exactly. That is where I got the idea from. Dean Lavelle runs one down at his camp. I just took the idea and improved on it.and designed it to work on an Axis tower.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-28-2017, 5:54 PM Reply   
Hopefully the higher mount point doesn't cause the boat to lean during cuts and affect the wake.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-01-2017, 7:44 AM Reply   
those have been around since about '98-'99. I remember darin riding behind one and than it later had a "kite" added to it to prevent too much boat roll as the rider pulled out wide. I think I have some old footage of it. If I recall when you pulled hard the flag went the other way to counteract the pull.

When I was young and towers did not exist, I actually hooked up a 11' tall 4" galvanized pole in the middle go my Seaswirl. Than used a bunch of strap to keep it sturdy. Than a company called WAYLON came out and it was basically the same thing with some cross beams to the sides of the boats.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       05-01-2017, 8:51 AM Reply   
Buff thats old school! Rode behind a pole for years.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-01-2017, 11:02 AM Reply   
It was definitely worth all the work. The water conditions were not great this weekend, but definitely could feel the difference in the amount of float we had and the landings were for sure softer. The weird thing was for all the riders it felt like we were riding at a faster speed. I am not sure why this phenomenon was occurring. When you cut out hard to the side you could twist the wake, however as the rider cut into the wake it would even out. I set it up with 4 quick release pins so i can take it off in less than a minute.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
Attached Images
  
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-01-2017, 11:56 AM Reply   
There might be something analogous to the cable going on. I ride the boat at 23 and the cable runs around 20, yet doesn't feel slow. The cable also has a much higher angle on the rope.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-01-2017, 12:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
There might be something analogous to the cable going on. I ride the boat at 23 and the cable runs around 20, yet doesn't feel slow. The cable also has a much higher angle on the rope.
Exactly. The more upward pull I think creates more lift maybe so that the board isn't riding so deep. That's my reasoning anyway.

On the cable, it's also harder to keep the handle in close. So I wonder what the optimal angle is.
Old    Jan (janzy)      Join Date: Aug 2004       05-01-2017, 5:33 PM Reply   
I'm curious to see it in action. Do you have any video footage?
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-01-2017, 5:42 PM Reply   
The water conditions were pretty bad so we didn't get any worth video. We are hopefully going out Wednesday and will get some footage. I am going to try to do a comparison video on one or two of my goto tricks with and without the extension to help understand how much difference it is making.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       05-03-2017, 5:17 PM Reply   
Lyle,
I get the 30% more hang time but how does this design help with a softer landing. Logic wouldsay the higher you go the harder and faster you fall = harder landings.
Just curious.

By the way, great job or the design and fabrication.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-03-2017, 6:12 PM Reply   
The angle of the rope starts an upward pull once you drop below the tower. The higher the tower the sooner the upward pull starts. Also the higher the tower the more the upward force because of the steeper angle on the rope. When you are above the tower you get a download force. For any given height a lower tower has more force.

So you are falling faster with a lower tower. Which is why you have more hang time with the higher tower. I wasn't reading where he was saying the rider goes higher. It seems you would likely go higher. But if you were to throw it to the same height as before then longer hang time and softer landing should result.

Last edited by fly135; 05-03-2017 at 6:19 PM.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       05-03-2017, 10:37 PM Reply   
I need to send this to Mythbusters.

I follow your logic John, And if the rope is taut all the way thru your jump then i can buy the fact that forward momentum would be more appropriate and thus help with a softer landing, but not upward.
With a completely tight rope, a 200lb person falling from 5 feet will get pulled forward ( by the speed of the boat) not up. lets say half of your jumps ( depending on the move you are throwing) , have landings with the rope taut, and the other half with slack in the line, If you are going higher with your jump then you will land with more impact.

I'm not an engineer ( which I think lyle is) but it just doesn't make logical sense to think I can jump higher without landing harder.

either way I still love the creativity and skills of what Lyle has done.

Last edited by three6ty; 05-03-2017 at 10:40 PM. Reason: addition to text
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-04-2017, 8:53 AM Reply   
Actually it makes perfect sense. If you still throw your trick to the same height with a higher tower, then you should get a softer landing. Therefore you should be able to throw it slightly higher and land with the same impact as the lower trick on the lower tower. If you take the tower height to the extreme (i.e. go to a cable) then the landings get much softer.

You say... "With a completely tight rope, a 200lb person falling from 5 feet will get pulled forward ( by the speed of the boat) not up"

You only get 100% of the pull in the horz axis when the rope is horz. Any rope angle will translate to an acceleration in the vertical axis.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       05-04-2017, 9:04 AM Reply   
think of kiteboarders. looong hang time and soft landing because they are pulled on a more vertical axis.

same concept, tow point 36" higher than normal. should be able to really feel it on a short rope

Last edited by denverd1; 05-04-2017 at 9:08 AM.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       05-04-2017, 10:01 AM Reply   
Ok guys, ill take your word for it. I have never been Kite sailing and i have only been on a cable 2 times.
But with a kite you have an opposing force unlike a boat or cable.
Meaning if i just stand there with a kiteboard kite and no board and there is a strong wind it will pull me up vertically if the wind is strong enough.
If i stand there with a cable rope in my hand (without a board) it will not pull me up, it will drag me along the water and not up out of the water. Yes the angel of that pull will be higher from the cable but it will never have enough pull to pull me out of the water completely until the opposing forces reach an overload ( going around a corner ) . But in general if you are going in a straight line you will get dragged horizontally not vertically.

**** what do i know . If it works then that will be awesome, because it will saves some knees!! Good luck Lyle on your project and keep us updated.
Old    Alex Yermolenko (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       05-04-2017, 10:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
think of kiteboarders. looong hang time and soft landing because they are pulled on a more vertical axis.

same concept, tow point 36" higher than normal. should be able to really feel it on a short rope
The kite pull rider into the air by the rope but on the wakeboard (behind the boat) the wake only do work for push the rider into the air - have you notice these are some different things? 36" is bells and whistles only
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-04-2017, 11:21 AM Reply   
It's a matter of physics, not intuition. Raising the tower 36" may have only a small effect, but it's still there. This is really more of an argument of whether 30% is a reasonable estimate.

If the wake is all that contributes to the rider's lift into the air, then why did they ever invent the tower in the first place?
Old    Pride (prowake)      Join Date: Jul 2016       05-04-2017, 6:28 PM Reply   
Ok I’m trying to do the math on this

Say a rider is 200lbs on a 75 ft rope and 7ft tower. he cuts, loads, pops.

If his rope had 100lbs of tension off the wake, there would be a vertical vector of 41Newtons helping him out

if he hypothetically loaded it with 200lbs of load, there would be 83N.

Add 3 feet on that tower, that 100lbs of tension yields a vector of 59N. 200lbs- 118!

Now lets say he’s airborne. Wake kicked him into an initial vertical velocity of 7m/s

7ft tower @ 100lbs of load would provide a vertical acceleration of .455m/s^2 for a “net gravity” of -9.345m/s^2. Peak height - 8.6 feet.

At 200lbs, the vector boost would be .922m/s^2 for a net gravity of -8.88m/s^2. Peak height - 9 feet

on the landing, the vertical vector would help only marginally over freefall at 8.2N. It equates to 1.84 lbs


Now the 10ft tower @ 100lbs would have popped with an accelerant of .655m/s^2 for a net gravity of -9.14m/s^2, peak height- 8.79 feet.

200lbs of tension would get a 1.31m/s^2 boost for a net force of 8.48m/s^2. Height for this would reach 9.47 feet

The landing on the 10 footer would be softened by a vector of 10.45N. 27.5% difference from the 7ft but still only barely over 2 lbs. probably not enough of a difference for the 200lb guy to really feel. <1%.


So as far as height/hangtime

7ft/100 got 8.6ft vs 10ft/100 at 8.79ft.
2% difference.
7/200 = 9ft vs 10/200 = 9.47.
5% difference.

you can observe the benefits increase as you use more force off the wake… but that may not be so easy to do, as the 10ft tower decreases line tension by a whopping 10% from the 7ft

That 10% will be immediately noticed while riding, as its comfy like cable, and quite possible could make me want it for that reason alone, but that also means you will need to be 10% more aggressive to achieve the same tension.


Now we can compare a regular water-level rope to a 7ft tower. theyre very dramatic.

@0ft, 100lbs of line tension, 7m/s vertical velocity off the wake, the rope begins to immediately work against the rider.
Aggressive pop creates aggressive downward vectors, accelerating gravity by .086m/s^2 killing hang time and height. Rope tension also increases by 10%.


The main benefit of an extension is if you often pop above the height of the tower
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-04-2017, 6:52 PM Reply   
Hey Prowake,
Obviously we are not seeing all of your calculations here but what I can tell is you made the same error I did when I first made the calculations, but let me know if I missed something. Essentially the way you have calculated it the rope is attached to the wakeboard. Calculating the additional upward lift in this manner is only applicable to tubes :-). So say the handle of the rope is 3ft off the water when the rider hits the wake. The calculations need to be done comparing a 4ft attachment vs 7ft.

And actually, there is more to the physics of a wakeboard jump than meets the eye. Several years ago we had a very in depth discussion about it on the WW forums. Yesterday I was noticing some of the effects as I was comparing progressive edge jumps to ollie edge jumps. I'll tell you what this is going to make it a lot easier to learn Batwings.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
Old    Pride (prowake)      Join Date: Jul 2016       05-04-2017, 7:45 PM Reply   
hmm. I could see center of mass having a role, but not until we become a projectile, and I don't think it would alter the data

we act as a fulcrum on the water, transferring energy through our body to the board where the friction and forces all come together

Last edited by prowake; 05-04-2017 at 7:50 PM.
Old    Pride (prowake)      Join Date: Jul 2016       05-04-2017, 8:19 PM Reply   
and the 10% reduced pulling effort is a big bonus that would make this entirely worth it anyway

no matter what the coefficient of friction is, the variance in rope force between the 7 and 10 foot tower shows the great improvement

I calculated a 10% variance between water level and 7 feet so thats nothing to take lightly. I prefer the pull of a cable any day
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-05-2017, 9:53 AM Reply   
Holy ****..

I have a simpler way of calculating this. Ask your friends in the boat.

1. Did I go bigger? = Yes = Buy the extension.

2. Did I go bigger? = No = Don't buy the extension.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-05-2017, 10:55 AM Reply   
LOL, yeah. I'm pretty sure there is an integration of the acceleration that involves a calc with a continuously changing rope angle. And an error component that results from having to assume the force on the rope remains constant.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       05-05-2017, 11:02 AM Reply   
Ya, What PROWAKE SAID!!! Wait..... What the hell did he say??? You guys are obviously much smarter than me..
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-08-2017, 12:09 PM Reply   
I am thinking a few of the pros may have an extension similar to mine and might not be talking about it. After riding it a few times now I can definitely see how it would boost ones' learning curve. Check out this picture Danny Harf just posted on Instagram. Look at the angle of the rope it looks unusually high.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
Attached Images
 
Old    Will (razorjaw)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-08-2017, 4:09 PM Reply   
Hmmm. Not so sure Lyle. I think you'll find that he's whipped the rope over his head with a little slack in it (think skipping rope @ the top of the swing) / plus the angle of the pic. Either way, I hope your project brings you success.
Old    Josh B (joshugan)      Join Date: Apr 2005       05-08-2017, 5:21 PM Reply   
Lyle, looking at a photo without the boat in it is rarely going to tell you the height of the rope connection. Look at almost any shot from behind the boat and no matter how high the rider is going, the rope is still going out the top of the frame. It does not mean the rope connection is higher than the rider though. It's all perspective.
Old    Brett Brinkerhoff (brinks)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-08-2017, 6:24 PM Reply   
I can tell you with 100% confidence Danny is not riding with an extension on the tower. That shot looks like it was taken from a chase boat or jetski parked right outside the double up roller. Way back in the day Darin had one of these on his boat at his camp. I think it was called an airshock or something like that. I think that's what Jason was taking about in his previous post. It was an extension like yours with a gas shock that was supposed to help with line tension off the wake and with landing. Also as Jason mentioned the kite thing on top to help with the boat rolling side to side when loading the line on your edge in.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-25-2017, 5:38 PM Reply   
Good call on the whip in the Danny photo Will. I have seen that happen in other photos also. So After riding it a few times now it is interesting because some moves you definitely feel more of an upward pull then on others it doesn't seem to make a difference. However, one thing I have found is it has definitely made my Crow Mobes more consistent. I normally land 1 out 4-5 of these and now I have landed 4 out 5 with the tower extension. I am riding tomorrow with a friend that is pretty good. I'll let you guys know what he thinks of it.

Crow Mobe from yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTFTENQWg8w

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
Old    Pride (prowake)      Join Date: Jul 2016       05-25-2017, 7:48 PM Reply   
local place seems to enjoy the extensions too
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Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       05-26-2017, 10:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsport View Post
Good call on the whip in the Danny photo Will. I have seen that happen in other photos also. So After riding it a few times now it is interesting because some moves you definitely feel more of an upward pull then on others it doesn't seem to make a difference. However, one thing I have found is it has definitely made my Crow Mobes more consistent. I normally land 1 out 4-5 of these and now I have landed 4 out 5 with the tower extension. I am riding tomorrow with a friend that is pretty good. I'll let you guys know what he thinks of it.

Crow Mobe from yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTFTENQWg8w

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
You're leaving REALLY early on your crow mobe ... and it's weird that I have to tell you that since you are running a wakeboard school.
Old    the not so naked chef (electricsnow)      Join Date: May 2002       05-27-2017, 1:33 PM Reply   
You're right tom. It is weird you have to give him advice about his move because this thread is about his invention, not "help me with my crow mobe." I hope you start your own camp soon.

The coolest thing about Lyle is he's been around as long as anyone in this thread, and he doesn't need to drop that info to assert himself. And he's probably been creating/inventing things for wakeboarding just as long. It's cool to see you still inventing, Lyle. Good luck, and keep it up!
Old    Sander (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       05-28-2017, 1:33 PM Reply   
Would be interesting to see the same set by the same person with and without extension. Of course every set is a bit different, but still... Looks like it might help learning a new trick, but 30% more hangtime seems a bit exaggerated. Someone should ask Dean since he's been using it for years.
Old    Jan (janzy)      Join Date: Aug 2004       05-30-2017, 7:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsport View Post
Good call on the whip in the Danny photo Will. I have seen that happen in other photos also. So After riding it a few times now it is interesting because some moves you definitely feel more of an upward pull then on others it doesn't seem to make a difference. However, one thing I have found is it has definitely made my Crow Mobes more consistent. I normally land 1 out 4-5 of these and now I have landed 4 out 5 with the tower extension. I am riding tomorrow with a friend that is pretty good. I'll let you guys know what he thinks of it.

Crow Mobe from yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTFTENQWg8w

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
I think the build is cool and all, but I can't help but post a snarky comment about the vertical video. Come on now, no one wants to see those ugly useless black bars!
Old    Paul Jones (pauljones1)      Join Date: May 2017       05-31-2017, 2:59 AM Reply   
I am sure it's gonna be worth the time and effort. St. Louis City Towing
Old    Vinny Armentano (VinnyA)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-20-2017, 3:50 PM Reply   
Relevant
Old    Chris Walker (Spotless)      Join Date: May 2016       06-21-2017, 5:58 AM Reply   
I know nothing about taller towers but I could watch above riding all day long with all those blind landings.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-21-2017, 9:31 AM Reply   
This thread is the first thing I thought of when I saw that video of David on Youtube.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       06-22-2017, 8:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotless View Post
I know nothing about taller towers but I could watch above riding all day long with all those blind landings.
David is super fun to watch. He has a unique style, and can do most of the tricks the big pros do, and on a small wake. Seriously talented rider.
Old    Jennifer R. (toxikgurl)      Join Date: Jun 2015       06-22-2017, 8:40 AM Reply   
Did you all see the video of David and Shaun Murray?! I can watch it over and over - the raleys that they do are unbelievable! :-)
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       06-22-2017, 9:08 AM Reply   
So I had the pleasure of riding the Stiffy Tower years ago (the one with the sail). It was different for sure. Handle passes felt a little weird, you definitely feel like you hang up there a bit longer and the landings were softer. In the boat, it was terrifying. It was on the first V-drive Star (narrower and lighter than today's boats) and in a small ski lake, but wow, when the rider edged out wide, it felt a little sketchy.

The one bolted to the Axis, looks really sweet and a lot shorter than the Stiffy. If the price was right, I'd be interested in one.
Old    Kurzinator (Kurzinator)      Join Date: Aug 2017       08-25-2017, 11:19 AM Reply   
I'd be curious to see how the extra height affects the boat when the rider carves out hard into the flats for a setup, and starts carving in hard. Just wondering if it would cause the boat to tilt more than usual.
Old    Mark Griffin (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       08-27-2017, 8:25 PM Reply   
I would love this thing but I see 2 problems.

1. Every high tower extension Ive ever seen cannot cope with heavy load from big raley or front based tricks, the entire boat will lean to one side

2. It would make competition riding harder since you would be used to a higher pull.

Of course if you dont care about riding comps then no problem!
Old    Mike (BCPMike0663)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-28-2017, 8:52 AM Reply   
Saw one of these on Tulloch. Not passing judgement. Looked interesting. Unfortunately they were just cruising in our cove. I would have really liked to see it in action.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-08-2017, 8:44 PM Reply   
Just wanted to post picts after powder coating. I also coated the board racks to match. After riding it all summer and coaching many students it was worth the time and effort. The most noticeable things by riders are the softer landings and extra hang time. When a rider cuts out hard to the outside it pulls the boat over more than normal but not much. The one negative thing is when you are coming up/passing someone wakesurfing, with the extra height, it creates an annoying amount of slack in the line as the boat goes over the rollers. Oh and Raleys and HS Fronts are awesome on it super floaty.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Oregon School of Wakeboarding
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