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Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2014, 9:43 AM Reply   
Not intending to say the shooting was justified or not, but the way the media first portrayed Brown, I was under the impression he was only "knee high to a grasshopper." In reality, this guy was huge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu5pe5zPLhI
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-17-2014, 10:18 AM Reply   
I heard that being huge in Ferguson gets you the death penalty. Being 6 feet myself, I hope that I never need to go there. Don't know if that makes me huge or not but I wouldn't want to take the chance and end up killed by a Ferguson officer. I hear that you can get the death penalty there for stealing cigars as well and they don't even need to give you a trial.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-17-2014, 10:43 AM Reply   
Old    Dustin Yost (dyost)      Join Date: Jan 2007       08-17-2014, 11:13 AM Reply   
He was also portrayed to be an upstanding, hardworking, church-going member of the community about to start college, then turns up he was robbing a convenience store that very same day.

Not saying that justifies what happened (not that we even know or will ever know exactly what happened) or how things went down, but it was a little ridiculous the way the media immediately came in and put such a positive spin on this guy's character (Trayvon anyone?)

This thing will be a mess for sure, we'll probably never know what happened. The cop has one story, his buddy who was there has another. After the kwik shop surveillance video surfaced I think there is a clear front-runner in the credibility department......
Old    Jordan Maxymek (Jmaxymek)      Join Date: Feb 2012       08-17-2014, 12:00 PM Reply   
Look past the initial crime for just a second. If you want anyone to take what you have to say seriously, you should start by not destroying local businesses in "protest" and looting gas stations. At that point, the entire argument goes down the drain. People are up in arms because of the police presence there, but it doesn't sound so absurd when you see the pictures of charred buildings. Rubber bullets and tear gas? Perhaps overkill, but there isn't another way to go about it. And to touch on the actual initial shooting, innocent until proven guilty falls on both sides of the law, so those calling for immediate justice will have to wait for our wonderful justice system to work it all out.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-17-2014, 12:05 PM Reply   
There's a pattern in the looting.
Hurricane? Loot
Shooting? Loot
Anything happens in the world or politics that they disagree with? Loot.

Some of these people are not the most intelligent. Looting innocent businesses that have nothing to do with the situation is absurd.
And to think, they are stealing from the businesses that keep their government programs afloat. Ironic.
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-17-2014, 3:34 PM Reply   
So you guys are cool with an unarmed person being shot until dead because of an unviolent crime?
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       08-17-2014, 5:25 PM Reply   
If he wrestled with the officer and the officers life was in danger.. then fatal force is justified..
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-17-2014, 9:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakemitch View Post
So you guys are cool with an unarmed person being shot until dead because of an unviolent crime?
Cops should shoot looters.

Last edited by brettw; 08-17-2014 at 9:07 PM. Reason: becuz I'm badass
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2014, 10:37 AM Reply   
The guy was 6' 4" 292 lbs. and angry.
Old    Jeff D (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       08-18-2014, 10:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakemitch View Post
So you guys are cool with an unarmed person being shot until dead because of an unviolent crime?
I can't say whether the shooting was justified or not as I wasn't there and there's no video but what I see at 1:17 in the video above is not what I'd call an "unviolent crime".
Old    Patrick Castro (patrick232)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-18-2014, 12:20 PM Reply   
If you put yourself in the situation that causes force to be used, you shoulder the blame. He could have followed the officers requests and could be alive.

Did the officer have to use deadly force, I was not there as all the protesters were not either. So we don't know. As a small business owner, I feel worse for those that have been looted than a single person killed.
Old    andy zarlengo (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       08-18-2014, 12:26 PM Reply   
Just going to plop this for ya
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/us/mis...l?c=homepage-t
Old    Boat Driver (LYNRDSKYNRD)      Join Date: Sep 2012       08-18-2014, 2:40 PM Reply   
Everyone should just stop posting up facts about the shooting or the events that led up to it. The truth will get in the way of people making ridiculous and hyperbolic statements.
Old     (Froggy)      Join Date: Nov 2013       08-18-2014, 8:22 PM Reply   
Looks like another thug . He didn't get that bold overnight Ill bet that he has a lot of history with the law.
Old     (whiteflashwatersports1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       08-19-2014, 5:46 AM Reply   
We recently had a six year old girl shot on her front porch in a drive by shooting in the worst part of town. There have been no protests/demonstrations, calls for "justice" visits from loud mouth politicos like Sharpton - none. In fact what there has been is frustation on the part of police trying to help that no one is willing to come forward or share info. Total bs this call for "justice". Settle down and let the system do its job. Protest or demonstrtate peacefully and your voice will be heard and taken seriously. Looting and general civil unrest will only further exacerbate the problems these communities face. Just sad the lack of control and intelect in play.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-19-2014, 6:07 AM Reply   
I don't see how there can ever be a fair trial now with all of the protesting because of the social pressure to find the officer guilty or more unrest will continue. The whole situation is sad.
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-19-2014, 9:45 AM Reply   
I guess you guys just want there to be a police state where cops shoot first and ask questions later. I guess it's OK in this case because it was a THUG aka a black guy. After all, their new found boldness for shooting unarmed citizens could never be used on white people like ourselves. Just like it was OK when Hitler and his brown coats and later SS started killing Jews. He was never going to turn that power on non Jews, right? That was how the German people justified the holocaust at the time. As long as it's not me. It could never happen to me. (non Jews were eventually targeted) The most ridiculous part about all of this is that when it isn't a "thug", you guys are the first ones worried about a police state, having your rights violated by police, or afraid that the police may be allowed to come and take your guns away. This is how that all begins. It isn't you until it's you.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-19-2014, 10:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorider View Post

did everyone listen to this? So we have the officers account vs the account of one guy who just robbed a QT. Take black/white out of it, which would you believe?
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-19-2014, 10:32 AM Reply   
Accounts taken without physical evidence to back them up don't carry more weight either way. They both may have had reason to lie. One to cover up a murder and the other to cover up a robbery.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-19-2014, 10:39 AM Reply   
But accounts taken without physical evidence is definitely good enough reason to protest?
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-19-2014, 10:40 AM Reply   
C'mon, seriously? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwJrG2AMghw
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-19-2014, 10:54 AM Reply   
I understand what Eric is saying. Thug's are ok Targets while normal people getting blasted should be a call for justice!

Well I hate to say it but YES thug's & Roaches are a green light for blasting or Tazing or what ever as far as I see it and this is just my 2c. The world needs less of these people.

Look at the Video where he strong arms the cigars from the store owner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxXGvXQrno

This guy dosen't just go in and steel like a normal shoplifter, Ya know grab the cigars & then run. This guy takes the cigars and then grabs the store owner by the throat. Then go's back into the store and after the store owner as to intimidate him. This guy looks like a typical Roach to me. and to me it show how a interaction between and cop and him might have gone down.

Dress like a Roach, Act like a Roach, Do Roach activity's! don't be surprised when you get smashed like a Roach
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-19-2014, 11:38 AM Reply   
I'm with grant on this one.
He's lucky he made it down the street to get blasted, instead the store owner taking care of that duty.

And to think that there WILL be some puke defense attorney that will take this scumbags family's case and defend his actions.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-19-2014, 12:51 PM Reply   
Didn't realize it was "THUG aka a black guy". I thought it was THUG aka video of a robbery. My sympathy meter took a dive after seeing the video.
Old    andy zarlengo (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       08-19-2014, 1:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakereviews View Post
Black Panthers better hope they never get into a real firefight with the opposition. It would not end well for them. Their loudmouth antics are cute in videos, but if push came to shove I have a feeling they would get eliminated from this planet pretty damn fast.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       08-19-2014, 1:44 PM Reply   
I'm so sick of seeing people jump to conclusions without the facts. How on earth do those idiot protesters justify their position when we all know that they don't have the facts. That officer may have murdered that guy in cold blood, but they don't know that and we know they don't know that, so they just look like fools. Sad that people are so ignorant and willing to jump on a mob bandwagon. It's even sadder to see race hustlers like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton, two guys that definitely know better, encourage the ignorant behavior.
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       08-19-2014, 1:44 PM Reply   
Time will tell and jury will decide if the officer was in the wrong. And an investigation into practices within the ferguson police dept should be welcomed.

Looting stores, general mayhem and cheering for lynch mob is definitely not right and should be punished.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-19-2014, 2:39 PM Reply   
This all come back to this. If people "Doing Dirt" (this go's for all colors of people) ya know Buying/Selling drugs, Gun Play, Car Chases, Robbery, (Typical Hood Rat Activity's) if these people would obey simple police commands most of these interactions between Police & Roaches wouldn't be so violent. That song they would play during the Nitro Circus intro that would say something like "If your going to be DUMB you better be Tough" These Roaches crying FOUL after they shoot at cops and lead them on a high speed chase and cry about getting ripped out of the car and a few people stepping on their neck, Sorry Son that's the cost of doing business! You wanna tussle with the cops don't be shocked when they blast you! Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton want to do the Community a favor they should have seminars on how to act! this go's for all colors.

Check out this Roach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crtK7hOS5NA
This Woman calls the cops and tells them that she is going to kill her family with a Uzzi. Cops show up and she has a what looks like a Drill painted Black and wont listen to commands, She gets blasted and dies. Her friends say she liked to play jokes and never understood the Gravity of her actions! Humm sounds like Darwinism
to me, hopefully she was not a breeder!
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-19-2014, 2:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
I'm so sick of seeing people jump to conclusions without the facts. How on earth do those idiot protesters justify their position when we all know that they don't have the facts. That officer may have murdered that guy in cold blood, but they don't know that and we know they don't know that, so they just look like fools. Sad that people are so ignorant and willing to jump on a mob bandwagon. It's even sadder to see race hustlers like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton, two guys that definitely know better, encourage the ignorant behavior.
They're not looking for facts, they're looking for opportunity. Jesse and Al will justify it for them.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-19-2014, 3:42 PM Reply   
A customer of mine just came in and said, in a certain part of the internet, that I have never been to, nor do I even know how to, there is the actual video, with audio and everything from the officers uniform/dash cam.
I'd be interested to see this video
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-20-2014, 1:43 PM Reply   
Here is a like to autopsy
Video
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/18..._r=1&referrer=

The hand injury looks Intresting. It looks like to me that the hand injury is consistent with him NOT having his hands up but straight at the gun
Attached Images
 
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-20-2014, 2:06 PM Reply   
The story they're painting is not exactly accurate. He was not an "unarmed teen", he was an adult with a history of drug use and speaking/singing in promotion of violence and beating women, and apparently violent robbery as well. Eyewitnesses stated he was charging at the police officer after initially running away. I am not one to take the side of police as they are nothing more than violent gangs of thugs who rape and steal, but with all the evidence and background I've heard and read this sounds like legitimate use of deadly force by the police. Unless evidence comes out contradicting what I've heard and read, I believe the officer killed this man in self defense and had no other choice.

Lots of very good information in this video:
(YouTube) The Truth About Michael Brown and the Ferguson Riots
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-20-2014, 2:15 PM Reply   
I do think police tend to get a hall pass, and go a bit overboard on the "self defense" shootings.
They have many other weapons in their arsenal that can be used before their gun.

As a citizen, see if you get let off as easy on your self defense shooting. Not a chance.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-20-2014, 2:52 PM Reply   
As for the rioters and "black community" outcry, what a load of self serving BS. I wonder where the "black community" protests and outrage is over this young mother who has been abducted and is facing a long time locked in a cage as well as confiscation of her children and essentially becoming unemployable in her field or any professional good paying job, all for for peacefully exercising her right to self defense. This young medical professional, a mother of two, seems to have harmed nobody, committed no acts of violent aggression, presumably does not use illegal drugs and does not verbally advocate drug use and violence that I have been able to find. Perhaps there is no "black community" or "black leader" outrage over this as it doesn't fit with their socialist agenda of "gun control" or more accurately making self defense illegal.

Young mother of two arrested in NJ during traffic stop when presenting PA LTCF
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-20-2014, 5:48 PM Reply   
He beat the helm out of the officer while he was in his car as well as went for his gun which went off. Brown went to leave so the officer got out of his car, drew his gun and and ordered Brown to freeze. Rather than freeze he charges the officer so the officer defended himself. The officer was merely trying to get them to stop blocking traffic and they refused. He did not have either a dash or lapel cam.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20...n-says-source/
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-20-2014, 11:00 PM Reply   
Just the fact that this POS was walking in the middle of the street and blocking traffic after commiting a strong arm robbery with no reason other than to be a thug and a menace, makes me not as sad that things turned out like they did. Karma baby...
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-21-2014, 5:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post
The story they're painting is not exactly accurate. He was not an "unarmed teen", he was an adult with a history of drug use and speaking/singing in promotion of violence and beating women, and apparently violent robbery as well. Eyewitnesses stated he was charging at the police officer after initially running away. I am not one to take the side of police as they are nothing more than violent gangs of thugs who rape and steal, but with all the evidence and background I've heard and read this sounds like legitimate use of deadly force by the police. Unless evidence comes out contradicting what I've heard and read, I believe the officer killed this man in self defense and had no other choice.

Lots of very good information in this video:
(YouTube) The Truth About Michael Brown and the Ferguson Riots

I had to shut this off after he said the Brown was stealing the Swisher Sweets to roll a blunt.... where did that come from? How is that relevant. I am on the side of the officer at this point but you can't knock the media for making unfounded claims (gentle giant, etc) then in the next breath say that he was going to use the stolen cigars to do drugs.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-21-2014, 7:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakereviews View Post
I had to shut this off after he said the Brown was stealing the Swisher Sweets to roll a blunt.... where did that come from? How is that relevant. I am on the side of the officer at this point but you can't knock the media for making unfounded claims (gentle giant, etc) then in the next breath say that he was going to use the stolen cigars to do drugs.
I thought that was funny myself. It is probably true though.

I linked through a few videos and there were a couple where african american guys were blasting Jesse and Sharpton for not helping the problem. One of the stats the guy said was that there were 100 african american's shot by cops (don't think he mentioned if those were all white cops or some mix). He said that last year there were 5000 african american's killed by african americans. That is 50:1. They mentioned if they truly wanted to fix the problems the leaders of these black communities need to work to look in the mirror. The problem isn't the police it is the communities themselves.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-21-2014, 11:05 AM Reply   
Ian it's to bad you tuned out of that video early because I think some of the best things the guy had to say and question we have to ask our selfs were in the last 15 mins or so of the video. If you have the time go back and watch it threw.

I like the part where he talks about "challenging the narrative"
Where " insert your race here" are somehow oppressing or keeping the blacks down. We (this county) needs to have a open discussion and forget the PC crap, the truth needs to come out.
This is the only way you can fix the problem.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-21-2014, 11:41 AM Reply   
G - sent you a PM.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-21-2014, 2:56 PM Reply   
Oh no here we go again! Cops blast another one!
http://fox6now.com/2014/08/19/man-br...-louis-police/

Here is the cell phone video of it
http://youtu.be/0ikg3x5_tJc
Old    Erik Vannorsdel (MBofTexas)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-21-2014, 3:17 PM Reply   
I've got a thought, how about respect authority. When they tell you to stop or get to your knees, I don't know maybe do it. If you walk towards a cop with a knife, hands in your pocket or physically threaten one what do you think is going to happen. They are trained to protect themselves so if you get in there reaction space plan on getting filled with bullets. I don't get how acting ignorant, disrespectful and like an animal people think somehow is acceptable. I am tried of this race card ****. I don't care what color you are if you threaten me with deadly intent plan on having your face rearranged with a .45. God bless America, god bless Texas and god bless the right to protect myself and my family. How about a little more support for cops who risk there lives trying to protect all of us from ignorant scum. Another thought how about all of you who thinks these cops were not justified pack up and move your family to one of these neighborhoods. Sorry done.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-21-2014, 4:01 PM Reply   
Do you think the media is pissed that there is a cell phone video and accounting of this latest shooting? I bet the media is like damn if there was NO cell phone video of it we could make up our own headlines like "Another innocent Black youth assassinated in the streets by racist police"

Last edited by grant_west; 08-21-2014 at 4:03 PM. Reason: None
Old    Erik Vannorsdel (MBofTexas)      Join Date: Aug 2013       08-21-2014, 4:59 PM Reply   
Political agenda. I am not racist, but I think we give anyone of any color who wants to act and or think those action are acceptable towards cops there own state to live in. Let them all live together and act how they want. They will take care of themselves.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-21-2014, 5:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBofTexas View Post
I've got a thought, how about respect authority. When they tell you to stop or get to your knees, I don't know maybe do it. If you walk towards a cop with a knife, hands in your pocket or physically threaten one what do you think is going to happen. They are trained to protect themselves so if you get in there reaction space plan on getting filled with bullets. I don't get how acting ignorant, disrespectful and like an animal people think somehow is acceptable. I am tried of this race card ****. I don't care what color you are if you threaten me with deadly intent plan on having your face rearranged with a .45. God bless America, god bless Texas and god bless the right to protect myself and my family. How about a little more support for cops who risk there lives trying to protect all of us from ignorant scum. Another thought how about all of you who thinks these cops were not justified pack up and move your family to one of these neighborhoods. Sorry done.

I don't necessarily agree with the cops protecting me. I can protect myself, bull**** laws, attorney's, and politicians do not allow me to do so.
So now come the police. To enforce, not protect.
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-21-2014, 5:24 PM Reply   
Simple really. A race war is also a class war. Both are desirable to those who would rule. More unrest means a greater need (call) for more restrictive laws. Less freedom = more (perceived) security. Fascism at its finest right before our very noses. Please sir.. may I have another?
Friggn sheep
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-21-2014, 5:49 PM Reply   
Not that I'll get an honest answer, but I wonder how many of you that are spouting off that "Brown should have listened to the cop" or "respect authority" are the same people that were cheering Clive Bundy and company for not listening to the cops and not respecting authority. And I know for a fact that there are two people that have posted on this thread about "obeying cops' orders" were blasting the cops a couple of months ago because a white dude refused a breathalyzer, and how people have rights. It just shows that we haven't gotten very far as a country since the 1950 and 1960's.

And don't take my post as a pro-Brown rant. I would like the truth to get out, whether it's in favor of the officer or Brown. Some of you that are bashing the media for "inventing a story" have no problem with spreading unsubstantiated stories yourself.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-21-2014, 6:03 PM Reply   
And from what I understand, an eye socket fracture is a very painful injury. I don't think Officer Wilson was treated or even examined by EMT's. He left the scene in his SUV. Speaking of which, if Brown charged and attacked Wilson in his SUV, wouldn't that be part of the crime scene? Why would officers allow him to tamper with potential evidence without doing some investigative work?

I think there are problems on both sides of the case.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-21-2014, 7:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Not that I'll get an honest answer, but I wonder how many of you that are spouting off that "Brown should have listened to the cop" or "respect authority" are the same people that were cheering Clive Bundy and company for not listening to the cops and not respecting authority. And I know for a fact that there are two people that have posted on this thread about "obeying cops' orders" were blasting the cops a couple of months ago because a white dude refused a breathalyzer, and how people have rights. It just shows that we haven't gotten very far as a country since the 1950 and 1960's.
Do you really not see the difference between a suspicionless investigatory seizures and battery agaisnt a police officer?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-22-2014, 4:06 AM Reply   
That was not the argument, Barry. You have guys on here posting that you should "obey the police" and they didn't offer any caveats to when you shouldn't "obey the police". The only difference I see is that Bundy had the Tea Party and other Conservatives behind him; Brown has more liberal-minded folks behind him. Besides, I don't think the case against Bundy can be definitively classified as "suspicionless (sic) investigatory seizures".

And again, if the officer had that serious of an injury, don't you find it somewhat strange that the he didn't receive any sort of treatment on the scene?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       08-22-2014, 4:42 AM Reply   
Re: that cell phone video of the other guy, isn't that pretty clearly sick-in-the-head suicide by cop? Why is that guy not tazed mercilessly?
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-22-2014, 5:54 AM Reply   
My only “close encounter” with the police was at 11:30 one night when my friends and I (four of us)were coming back from a day at the lake and got pulled over for having a tail light out on my boat. Now this little town is a known speed trap with rumored drug activity--naturally the police on on high alert--so when asked to produce a license, insurance, and registration and couldn’t, the officer, a little smaller than I was, became suspicious, went back to his car to run my tags. Like an idiot, I started rummaging around for my license, while joking around with my friends, and I found my packet that contained everything—license, registration, and insurance--in the compartment between my seats. Not wanting to get a ticket, I jumped out of the truck and headed toward the officer, who was standing on the other side of the boat. At that point, the officer put his hand on his pistol and strongly advised me to get back into my vehicle—WHICH I DID!!! That situation could have gotten ugly fast. After a few more minutes, he came back to my window, examined everything and let us go with a warning. After that experience, I always stay in the vehicle and make no sudden movements
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2014, 8:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
That was not the argument, Barry. You have guys on here posting that you should "obey the police" and they didn't offer any caveats to when you shouldn't "obey the police". The only difference I see is that Bundy had the Tea Party and other Conservatives behind him; Brown has more liberal-minded folks behind him. Besides, I don't think the case against Bundy can be definitively classified as "suspicionless (sic) investigatory seizures".
Suspicionless investigatory seizures was not referencing Bundy. I was addressing the DUI checkpoint situation you used to contrast the two situations.


Suspicionless is spelled correctly in this context, no need for sic. It's legalese.
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-22-2014, 8:46 AM Reply   
So you have to worry about being shot for a bad tail light and the gall to get out of your car to get the officer the information that he asked for previously. Not the world I want to live in. It's time to get the police back under the public's control. This country isn't run by the military or the police. If you want to live like it's 1940's Germany or 1980's Russia, then go live somewhere else. For instance you can create your own state to live in. Let you all live together and let cops act how they want. Less freedom = more (perceived) security. Fascism at its finest right before your very noses. Please sir.. may I have another?
Friggn sheep. I'm using your own quotes against you now and if you open your mind even a little, you'll see what I'm trying to say.

Isn't it interesting how one side feels that a class war equals fascism and the other side thinks that fascism is when you have to obey police officers regardless of their requests? Let's all look up what fascism is and see which side is closer to correct.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-22-2014, 9:05 AM Reply   
Not getting out of the car seems like a reasonable thing to do vs. getting out and putting him on alert. We've all seen videos of traffic stops gone bad when the driver pulls a gun or something. I don't feel like i'm living in a fascist world by obeying a police officer's call to stay in my vehicle...
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       08-22-2014, 9:26 AM Reply   
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-22-2014, 9:54 AM Reply   
Yes, I could have gotten shot and it would have been my fault. The officer had no idea who I was and there were four of us and one of him. He didn't know what I rummanging around for--a gun maybe. It's this lack of understanding that may be part of the problem.
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-22-2014, 1:51 PM Reply   
Just keep on obeying then. No matter how bad it gets, no matter what the request, you just obey like a good boy.
Old    David Langston (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       08-22-2014, 3:10 PM Reply   
There is a difference in obeying reasonable request from law enforcement officer and obeying a ridiculous one. If a cop asks you to stop walking in the street you should stop walking in the street. That's a reasonable request. If a cop tells you to take your shoes off, put them on your hands, and wall upside down then you could conclude that that is an unreasonable request. The reason cops want you to stay in your car during a traffic stop is because they do not know who you are. You could be getting out to assault them or something. Staying in your car is for the safety of the officer and the person they pulled over. It's common sense. Now DUI check points I believe are bogus, they should not be allowed to pull you over without probably cause.

The whole Clive Bundy thing in my mind falls under an unreasonable request. His family had been using that land for grazing long before they tried to institute fees to do so. He should be grandfathered in or they should just continue to let him graze. It's public land anyways. If officer Wilson shot Brown in cold blood he should
go to prison for murder, if he was being attacked then he was defending himself. We will see the evidence soon enough and all be able to make a more informed decision.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2014, 3:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Yes, I could have gotten shot and it would have been my fault.
Do you think it's reasonable for an officer to use deadly force when deadly force isn't necessary? Is it reasonable to assume that a person getting out of their car with an envelope intends on doing harm to an officer?

Ability does not equate to intent. For the average man to be justified to use deadly force there must be ability, opportunity and intent....A person getting out of their vehicle holding documents does not meet that criteria. Law enforcement is held to a higher standard because of their professional training.


There is no excuse.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2014, 3:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Staying in your car is for the safety of the officer and the person they pulled over. It's common sense.
That's such an overplayed excuse.
If it's that dangerous, why did you pull me over here? Also, if it's dangerous for me, it's dangerous for you..
They want you to stay in your car because they've been training to believe that everyone is out to kill them, each stop might be their last and they want to be certain to make it home.They're trained to be needlessly paranoid.
Research the countries most dangerous jobs and LE isn't in the top 20.
Old    Darrin (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       08-22-2014, 3:34 PM Reply   
Protect & Serve has become Enforce & Intimidate but…. The cops are going to need all that military gear if the EBT and other welfare programs ever run out just to keep the savages out of your neighborhood. I think that’s the biggest fear. If you stop giving all the freeloaders the free ride then they will have to leave the ghetto to riot, loot, steal, and murder. Liberal welfare; too big to fail.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-22-2014, 3:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
Ability does not equate to intent. For the average man to be justified to use deadly force there must be ability, opportunity and intent....
.
And how exactly is a cop supposed to know intent?
Old    Darrin (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       08-22-2014, 3:52 PM Reply   
Law enforcement is held to a higher standard because of their professional training.


There is no excuse.[/QUOTE]

Actually LEO's are held to lower standards for violence than the average citizen and in most cases have sympathetic juries on their side. Check out the Supreme Court case of Graham v. Connor.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2014, 4:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
And how exactly is a cop supposed to know intent?
They can't and it's not reasonable to assume everyone who is not law enforcement is out to kill you.


Quote:
Actually LEO's are held to lower standards for violence than the average citizen and in most cases have sympathetic juries on their side. Check out the Supreme Court case of Graham v. Connor.
No sir, they're not.
regarding G vs. C- the reasonableness standard established that when using force the officer must act as any other reasonable officers would have acted in a similar scenario. Nowhere in that case were officers decisions/acts compared to civilians.

I do agree they will often have sympathetic juries.
Old    Darrin (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       08-22-2014, 5:02 PM Reply   
LEO’s are civilians, they are not active military.

But I do believe C vs G established lower standards for reasonableness to inflict force than the average citizen. Would you pull a gun on someone getting out of their car handing you papers? No, of course not. But to a cop that is reasonable to him and his comrades. See, lower standards for reasonableness. Due to a threat? Possibly but lower nonetheless.

Doesn’t excuse the felonious behavior we have watched on the news by people committing crimes while chanting for “justice”. It’s all about race to them and this was an reason to riot.
Old    David Langston (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       08-22-2014, 5:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
That's such an overplayed excuse.
If it's that dangerous, why did you pull me over here? Also, if it's dangerous for me, it's dangerous for you..
They want you to stay in your car because they've been training to believe that everyone is out to kill them, each stop might be their last and they want to be certain to make it home.They're trained to be needlessly paranoid.
Research the countries most dangerous jobs and LE isn't in the top 20.

I think you are not understanding why staying in the car is better for everyone's safety. It's not about the dangers of being run over. It's about if you stay in the car the officer is safer since he doesn't have to worry about being attacked and you are after because a paranoid officer will not shoot you thinking you were trying to attack him.

Also someone getting out of their car next to a normal citizen and someone exiting a vehicle while being pulled over by a cop are in no way comparable. Due to the nature of police work they are far more likely to be attacked by someone they pulled over than an ordinary person is by someone getting out of their car in the parking spot next to them. I don't even understand how you compared the two.
Old    Darrin (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       08-22-2014, 6:13 PM Reply   
Also someone getting out of their car next to a normal citizen and someone exiting a vehicle while being pulled over by a cop are in no way comparable. Due to the nature of police work they are far more likely to be attacked by someone they pulled over than an ordinary person is by someone getting out of their car in the parking spot next to them. I don't even understand how you compared the two.[/QUOTE]

You sure?

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/P...272224931.html
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2014, 6:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
LEO’s are civilians, they are not active military.
Civilian
noun
1.
a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization.



Quote:
But I do believe C vs G established lower standards for reasonableness to inflict force than the average citizen.
C vs. G only established an objectively reasonable standard. The level of force in relation to the expected/reasonable force of a civilian under the same circumstanced aren't even considered, it's a situational comparison of what a reasonable officer would do The standard CAN'T be lower than a civilian for multiple reasons:

Civilians don't have professional training.
Civilians are not sworn peace officers
Civilians don't have an ascending/descending level of tools to carry out the level of necessary force.

I think you need to read Graham v. Connor slowly. You're completely missing the point. C v G isn't establishing a standard at which an officer may inflict force. As a matter if fact, we're really only discussing a small fraction of C v. G.
Old    David Langston (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       08-22-2014, 6:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabledog View Post
Also someone getting out of their car next to a normal citizen and someone exiting a vehicle while being pulled over by a cop are in no way comparable. Due to the nature of police work they are far more likely to be attacked by someone they pulled over than an ordinary person is by someone getting out of their car in the parking spot next to them. I don't even understand how you compared the two.


You sure?



http://www.komonews.com/news/local/P...272224931.html[/QUOTE]


You can't cite one example of a crazy person and say it is the same. Cops per capita get attacked by people much more frequently than people getting out of cars next to other people
Old    Darrin (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       08-22-2014, 8:51 PM Reply   
Barry I stand corrected on the noun. Headed to the lake house so I'll have to debate my point later. Glad I'm not in Ferguson. Actually will have some of my cop friends out with us, detective and swat officer that are married this weekend. She's the detective.

I'm not against you but don't want to give up freedom for security.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2014, 11:09 PM Reply   
Darrin,

No worries! Have a great time at the lake.
I don't think you're against me at all. I'm a Ron Paul guy, so you KNOW where I stand on liberty vs a false sense of security.
Old    Jordan Maxymek (Jmaxymek)      Join Date: Feb 2012       08-27-2014, 12:12 AM Reply   
Has anybody heard of Dillon Taylor? Me neither up until now, and he was shot and killed "unarmed" two days after Michael Brown by a black police officer.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-coverage-of-/

Less speculation and a bit more detail here. If he really had a gun, wouldn't we know that by now? Wouldn't that be immediately available information regarding the confrontation? Either way, frustrating:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...ra.html?pg=all
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       09-12-2014, 8:24 PM Reply   
The guy that called the cops in that Walmart shooting admitted he lied (after being irresponsibly shown the video that contradicted his lies):

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/09/...h-admits-lied/
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       09-13-2014, 9:28 AM Reply   
Just heard a segment on the radio about the Ferguson police and a black guy charged with among other things "damaging public property" for blood getting on their uniforms in an altercation in the jail, which was videotaped. As usual the story is based on who you believe, the police or the alleged perp. Unfortunately the Ferguson police "accidentally" destroyed the evidence, which was revealed when the defendant's attorney requested a copy.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       09-14-2014, 9:51 AM Reply   
This entire racial hate ward is getting way out of hand. The Ferguson issue, Wes' incident and these listed below are become too frequent. http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/09...e-unconscious/ http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/09/...ed-help-143674 "Why can't we all just get along?""
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-14-2014, 1:35 PM Reply   
RonT that "live leak" video in your link is one I saw a few weeks back and tryed to find it but had no luck. I wanted to post it hear but (for some reason) it's very hard to find. Nothing new IMO if it was a group of white kids stomping a black kid it would be all over the news and people would be rioting.
Why have we seen no "wanted" or be on the look out for the teens that did this. How come white people don't take to the streets and demand Justice. Clearly this was a hate crime. Just another double standard and IMO the media give no story's like this any traction. If anything fergson should have taught people is that the Media has a agenda, just like reality TV. It's to get viewers. No matter how they do it even if they distort the truth to sell papers or add space.

White on black violence = front page news
Black on white violence = just another day.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       09-14-2014, 7:40 PM Reply   
Here's a link, G. Pretty brutal beating.http://www.wnd.com/2014/09/video-bla...-white-couple/
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-14-2014, 9:21 PM Reply   
Ron T that video is another "Hate Crime" would they ever charge any of these animals with a hate crime! Hell no.
One of the complaints the Black Comunity of fergson complained about was lack of Black police officers on the police force.
Well what these idiots don't understand is the police force can't hire most of the black people in the comunity because they can't pass a background check because of the "Hood Rat" activity showen in the flash mob beat down of the white guy in the link above.

It's quite ironic that the black girl that shot the video described the kids as "hood rats" because that's Exactley what they are RATS and IMO there is a way to deal with RATS

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