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Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-12-2014, 1:38 PM Reply   
So, I've been wanting to do a "delayed convergence" system on my boat. I've seen a ton of writeups with various levels of home brew projects. When it came down to it, I found myself debating between doing a Surfgate type system (albeit manual) or a Nautique Surf System (NSS) inspired system.

I found a great template on a forum that gave the exact dimensions of the 2014 Axis surfgate. But then I found a writeup where someone did a NSS inspired system on a Malibu.

I've had the opportunity to ride both a Malibu with Surfgate and a couple of Nautiques (G23 and G25) with NSS. In the end, the less bulk of the NSS and suitability of my hull (flat) for the installation won me over. So, I'm doing a "Supra Surf System" (SSS) on my boat. I'll use HDPE as a baseplate and throughbolt that to my hull. Then I'll have a "blade" likewise made from 1/2" HDPE that will slide out and downward.

I took my measurements for blade excursion from the writeup by H20 Junkie on the Malibu forums http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/...alibu-project/
Basically he was able to get measurements from a bunch of Nautiques and was able to determine that the optimal sideways excursion is up to 3" and the optimal downward excursion is between 3/4" and 1". I went with 3" out and 3/4" down.

Here is a really crude drawing that was the beginning of my vision (even before I read the other guy's writeup).


The step on the stern of my boat from white to black is exactly 1/2". So the logical choice for material was 1/2" HDPE in white. I figured I'd have two baseplates, a lower "filler" baseplate that covered the white, and another baseplate on top of that that covered all of the lower filler plate as well as some of the black portion of my stern. Then I would have a blade that slid on posts that came up from the baseplates. And a simple knob to secure it in place when extended or retracted. Basically, unscrew knob, slide out the blade to the desired spot, then tighten the knob down. Very manual, but very quick and easy.

To start I got out some cardboard and made a mockup:

Retracted assembly:


Blade fully deployed:


Backside of assembly deployed:
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-12-2014, 1:43 PM Reply   
Next, I taped my cardboard assemply onto my boat to see how it'd look. Of course it was dark out, but I had to press on...

Extended


Retracted from front (it looks like it sticks out but is parallel with the lines of the hull and only protrudes because of the rounded corners of the corner)


Retracted


Extended from front:


Since my goal was to pull my gas tank to install this using through bolting, I made sure to drain my tank down (not hard when surfing on a few outings). I was glad I did that because last night when I tried to drain my tank, I couldn't get any of my fluid pumps working. So frustrating. In the end I muscled the gas tank out without draining it. Luckily there was only probably 6 or 7 gallons left in the tank.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-12-2014, 2:03 PM Reply   
Here's a pic of the inside of my trunk from when I re-did my rudder packing. The stern is at the bottom of this pic.


So, I went to my local TAP plastics and bought 6 pieces of 13x17" HDPE in 1/2" thickness. Turns out that I could have gotten away with 1 piece less as I was able to make my bottom baseplate for both Port and Starboard out of a single piece. But it's better to have too much than not enough. All the HDPE was a total of $78. I played around with taping up a template on the HDPE the other night...



Then I made a run to my local industrial bolt supply company. I chose to go with 1/4-20 bolts because it's such a common thread pattern. I mapped out where I'd have all my bolts and holes. My plan was to have the bolts for the posts going through all of the hull, baseplate(s), and blade. I would have a thin nut on top of the baseplates and then have the remainder of the bolt go through the blade with a nylock nut on top. That way the blade would actually be sliding on the bolts of the posts (or maybe washers) instead of having the whole of the blade sliding on the whole of the upper baseplate. I figure less friction and a small gap would work well.

After my first run to the bolt store, I was into hardware $20. I made another run to a local ACE hardware store and got my wing knobs. ($5). I got some plastic handles that you'd use on a kitchen cabinet or drawer for $5 from Home Depot. I also got a tube of 3m 4200 fast cure from West marine ($15)


Last night I made yet another cardboard template for the lower baseplate (that covered the white). I also drilled all of my holes for the starboard side (Regular wave is more important to me so it made sense to start with the blade that would affect goofy and learn from that to make any slight improvements to the Port side). I had my wife hold the smaller lower baseplate to the hull and I drilled the holes in the baseplate from the inside of the boat out using the holes in the hull as my pilot holes. Sadly, I knicked my wife's finger with the drillbit when I THOUGHT I was drilling out one hole and turned out to be drilling out another that her hand was covering! A little blood, but she wasn't hurt.

So, by the end of last night I had all the holes drilled in both baseplates. I then took all my bolts and verified that I had my lengths right. Turns out that almost universally I needed longer bolts because I was going through thicker stuff on the hull than anticipated. So I got down all the actual bolt sizes I needed and went back to Vancouver Bolt and got more hardware. (another $15 in hardware for longer bolts, even more washers, and a few bolts I missed getting the first trip.)

By this time is was getting really late and I'd imagine my neighbors already hate me for my late night boat projects involving drills and impact guns and the like that are outside their bedroom window. So that's where I am so far.

Unfortunately tonight's forecast is for showers and I might be doing some of this in the wet. I'd like to get this buttoned up so I can get the 24 hours of fast cure with the 4200 and not miss any boating time this weekend. It's possible, we'll have to see!

Last edited by trayson; 06-12-2014 at 2:12 PM.
Old    Tracktor (tracktor)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-12-2014, 2:24 PM Reply   
Cool write up. I may do something like this on my older VLX at some point. One tip - for really cool hardware selection try Wilco in Battle Ground. They have all kinds of neat stuff for projects.................
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-12-2014, 2:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tracktor View Post
Cool write up. I may do something like this on my older VLX at some point. One tip - for really cool hardware selection try Wilco in Battle Ground. They have all kinds of neat stuff for projects.................
Good to know. But I can zip over to Vancouver Bolt on my lunch and they were easily 1/2 the price on the stainless stuff I bought vs. Ace or Home Depot. Plus, it was really nice just telling them what I wanted at the service counter and having them get all the stuff I wanted off my list.

While BG isn't that far from me, I live in Salmon Creek and work downtown Vancouver, so stuff on the west side is way more convenient. Plus, there's nothing that is a "quick" trip to for from Battle Ground. It's just not located near enough to the freeways for me. I wouldn't have even bothered with Ace because their prices suck, but I was able to find an assortment of wind handle knobs there on the way home from work yesterday.
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       06-12-2014, 3:50 PM Reply   
Awesome work so far!! Cant wait to see how this comes out!
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-12-2014, 3:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightv10 View Post
Awesome work so far!! Cant wait to see how this comes out!
Thanks. I'm not really looking forward to working on this in the rain, but we'll see what kind of cover I can come up with. Or maybe it'll ease off with the precip after I get home. I would like to get things sealed up by end of tonight if I can, so I can get the 3m 4200 curing and take it out on Saturday morning.
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       06-12-2014, 4:29 PM Reply   
ah I think this will burn off

but I hear ya. I hate working in the rain too
Old    Frank . (hyperliquidliteforce)      Join Date: Aug 2013       06-12-2014, 5:12 PM Reply   
This is gonna be pretty sweet when your done. Direct drives are pretty hard to knock over because of the little space. You'd think manufactures would catch on and put this stuff on smaller boats.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-12-2014, 5:21 PM Reply   
Well it's been raining but has dried up some. Still wet, but not raining.
Subscribed for updates.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-12-2014, 10:55 PM Reply   
So, as Washington tends to do in the spring, it rained tonight off and on. And there were times where it was coming down heavy so I had to figure out something to allow me to work on my boat. So I moved my offset patio umbrella and it worked PERFECT.



Picking up where I left off last night, I took the blade that had the holes cut into it and made the lines for the channels. (the top actually needed another channel, but I fixed that later).


So I mounted everything up and sealed it all with 3m 4200 fast cure. That stuff is sticky but after my experience with the 5200 on my transom lights, I learned to be careful with it. Here's a pic of the inside of my hull. I made 10 new holes. some of them have the bolts going from the outside in, and some of them are going from the inside out.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-12-2014, 11:08 PM Reply   
So, I've got the Port side mostly done. I wanted to "learn" on that side since the goofy wake isn't that important to me. I have to trim down my hardware as they stick out about 1/2" past the nylock nuts. I guess better too long than too short. I used 1.5" fender washers on the bolts that form the posts for the channels of the blade. As you can see, I cut the top channel longer so it has more support.

Here is a pic of the blade retracted.


Retracted side view. I am not liking those bolts sticking out. But it's late and my neighbors would HATE me if I fired up the compressor and busted out the air grinder!!!


Deployed. As you can see, the blade is sliding on the hardware, not directly on the baseplate. I'll add the knob later.


Fully deployed from the front. Also, keep in mind that I designed it for 3" of full lateral excursion. I don't HAVE to use that much, it's fully adjustable. The excursion on the bottom is around 3/4".


So, I moved on to the Starboard side. I have the lower baseplate cut out, and also the upper baseplate. I've got the back side of the blade cut out (where it goes around the swim platform bracket). I'll start drilling holes for the starboard side tomorrow...

The question I keep getting again and again is "do you think your hull is strong enough".

We'll find out. In a lot of ways, the baseplates are actually going to function to strengthen the hull. adding reinforcement in my opinion.
The other guy that did it on his malibu is having it work just fine and he didn't even through bolt his...
The guy on the Malibu forums is using 3/8" HDPE for his blades and it's working just fine. I'm using 1/2" so mine is thicker. At least 2 of my bolts are on the swim platform backing plate. 2 are where there's extra hull material for the swim platform and the rest are near the corners where things would naturally be stronger. Someone has to be the innovator and risk taker.


Stay tuned...
Old    Eric Scott (phillywakeboarder)      Join Date: Sep 2008       06-13-2014, 6:51 AM Reply   
While you're working around the transom, you may want to consider making your swim platform bigger. It looks really small. Kidding! With respect to the hull, maybe you should add plates for all the bolts, not just the ones in the center. You'd think most of the force will be on the bolts closest to the starboard side. I have no idea if it's necessary though. I recently had to remove my tower, and discovered that only 3 of the 4 legs had plates. One was "supported" by fiberglass alone, and it was fine for 14 years. You gotta be careful with anything under the water line though. Good luck man!! Looking forward to the wake pics!
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-13-2014, 7:34 AM Reply   
I'm going to go ahead and say it. I hope it works, but I'm seeing potential for failure/disaster.
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       06-13-2014, 8:40 AM Reply   
Good luck. I think i would have played with a bolt on gate before i went this route. I did a bolt on version of both the malibu type and the nss type and the malibu one worked much better with my hull. Really hope it works out for you, i wouldnt have the balls to just jump in blind to try.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-13-2014, 8:44 AM Reply   
I would have made it out of aluminum, I think that HDPE plastic might break from water pressure
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 8:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv420 View Post
I would have made it out of aluminum, I think that HDPE plastic might break from water pressure
They guy on the Malibu forum that did this before me is using only 3/8" HDPE for his blade and it's working great for him. I'm using 1/2" for my blade.

It's been nice as the HDPE has been really easy to work with.
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-13-2014, 8:49 AM Reply   
Anxious to see it this works. Seems simple and good on you for giving it a shot.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 8:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler97217 View Post
Anxious to see it this works. Seems simple and good on you for giving it a shot.
Thanks Tyler. Although the installation/fabrication isn't going as quick as I'd thought. I have two LONG evenings into it so far and I will probably have a 3rd full evening into it before the Starboard side is done.

I had to give up our last nice day (Wed) where I could have been on the water but instead I was tearing in to my boat. I had hoped to have it drilled/sealed by last night so it'd be fast cured by Saturday morning, but that doesn't look likely.

Hopefully small time sacrifices = big surf wave benefits in the future.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-13-2014, 9:03 AM Reply   
Don't you deploy surfgate and NSS on the opposite side? I know you are doing both sides but if you didn't care about the goofy side shouldn't you have put the bracket on the starboard side and not the port side first?
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 9:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
Don't you deploy surfgate and NSS on the opposite side? I know you are doing both sides but if you didn't care about the goofy side shouldn't you have put the bracket on the starboard side and not the port side first?
Maybe I was confusing. Yes, you absolutely deploy this on the opposite side.

I surf regular. That puts me on the Port side of the wake when I'm surfing. That means that I'd deploy my starboard blade when surfing regular.

I did the Port side blade first which is the one that would affect the Goofy (starboard) rider.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 9:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
I'm going to go ahead and say it. I hope it works, but I'm seeing potential for failure/disaster.
Thanks for your support.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-13-2014, 9:40 AM Reply   
Good luck with this. I'm interested to see your results. I think the weakest point is going to be the HDPE.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 9:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter660 View Post
Good luck with this. I'm interested to see your results. I think the weakest point is going to be the HDPE.
That's entirely possible. And if that's the case, I can most certainly replace the blade with a different material. I think that the baseplates will certainly be fine as HDPE.

So, if the HDPE doesn't work, then I can most certainly attempt a Version 2.1 with a different material for the blade (Aluminum?).
Old    L W (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       06-13-2014, 10:03 AM Reply   
If it does work great, taking the HDPE pieces to a fab shop to be made out of aluminum would be pretty straight forward. I'm interested to see how this works too.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-13-2014, 10:35 AM Reply   
Seeing how many of these projects have been done with wood, which HDPE is stronger in the same thickness, or done in HDPE, without failure, I think it will hold up.
I am free this evening to give you a hand on it. It looks like you're making good progress.
To me the weak point looks like it'd be the sides of the slotted ares around the bolts. Being that they are sliding on bolts as standoffs and have another bolt holding it down right above it. It is almost pinching it there and could create weak spots or areas of increased wear. short term, maybe even up to a few seasons, I don't see a problem, but the HDPE may get worn more in those areas and eventually wear through or break off over time in those areas. Having it flush against the baseplate or having an outer plate would greatly reduce the pressure points.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 10:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathom View Post
Seeing how many of these projects have been done with wood, which HDPE is stronger in the same thickness, or done in HDPE, without failure, I think it will hold up.
I am free this evening to give you a hand on it. It looks like you're making good progress.
To me the weak point looks like it'd be the sides of the slotted ares around the bolts. Being that they are sliding on bolts as standoffs and have another bolt holding it down right above it. It is almost pinching it there and could create weak spots or areas of increased wear. short term, maybe even up to a few seasons, I don't see a problem, but the HDPE may get worn more in those areas and eventually wear through or break off over time in those areas. Having it flush against the baseplate or having an outer plate would greatly reduce the pressure points.
You and your obsession with outer plates...

I could also add washers for the blade to slide on instead of having it slide on just the intermediate bolt heads.

Last edited by trayson; 06-13-2014 at 10:44 AM.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-13-2014, 10:46 AM Reply   
Either countersunk bolts to make the blade flush with the baseplate (preferred of the two) or an outer plate, or both. Each would reduce the strain to those areas by distributing the pressure along a greater surface area. It may be a very sound design and work well. My idea could be and is probably overkill and is definitely not as easy to impliment, but just from a physics standpoint, is stronger with less opportunity to fail.
Old    Brian (silverlude)      Join Date: Apr 2004       06-13-2014, 10:52 AM Reply   
1/2" HDPE is very strong stuff. Doubt just water pressure would break it or crack it unless you forget to move them in for hi speed travel. Maybe a log or something but ya want something to give and not rip out of transom so better a plate you can replace. I made spares for my system when I did it while I had all the tools out ect... Like I mentioned to ya on the crew and from some stuff I have talked w Nautique guys, the system works after ya fine tune it for your boat. I think your doin a great job man. Your gonna love the wave shaping you can do for skim and surf style boards. Knock it out and go surf.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 10:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathom View Post
Either countersunk bolts to make the blade flush with the baseplate (preferred of the two) or an outer plate, or both. Each would reduce the strain to those areas by distributing the pressure along a greater surface area. It may be a very sound design and work well. My idea could be and is probably overkill and is definitely not as easy to impliment, but just from a physics standpoint, is stronger with less opportunity to fail.
You're very correct that it wouldn't be as easy to implement. I intentionally avoided countersinking the bolts to avoid complexity and to aid ease of installation. I've already got many hours into this.

Also, in practice, even with the LESS surface area provided by the blade being sandwiched between only the bolts under it and the fender washers over it, I've found that the blade doesn't just "glide" in and out. In fact, I could probably not even use the wingnut style knob and the blade would stay in or out without it being secured. So having the HDPE flush like you're saying would make it even harder to deploy and retract the blade. I was aiming for simple and useable.

If I had all the time/money in the world, I could do all sorts of stuff like adding bearings for it to slide on and all other sorts or ridiculousness. The blade is a $13 piece of HDPE. I don't need it to last for 20 years.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-13-2014, 10:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlude View Post
1/2" HDPE is very strong stuff. Doubt just water pressure would break it or crack it unless you forget to move them in for hi speed travel. Maybe a log or something but ya want something to give and not rip out of transom so better a plate you can replace. I made spares for my system when I did it while I had all the tools out ect... Like I mentioned to ya on the crew and from some stuff I have talked w Nautique guys, the system works after ya fine tune it for your boat. I think your doin a great job man. Your gonna love the wave shaping you can do for skim and surf style boards. Knock it out and go surf.
Thanks Brian. You were definitely my inspiration to actually jump into this thing and finally start fabricating the ideas I had in my head.

There are a few parts of this that I could probably do better with the hindsight provided by doing it once, but I'm pleased so far... I think that the Starboard side will come out a little better (and that is why I started with the Port side.).
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-13-2014, 10:59 PM Reply   
After helping you out today and seeing it for myself, I will say 2 things.
1: It isn't the prettiest thing in the world, finish could be improved, but there is always time for a 2.0 that's pretty if this works well. For an initial concept build, it's great.
2: It sure looks like it will work and that there will be zero issues with the strength of the HDPE with the water pushing against it. I pulled on the finished port side with most of my body weight while it was extended and it felt rock solid. With the improvements you're making with the port side, I definitely think it'll be trouble free from a structural standpoint.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-14-2014, 7:41 PM Reply   
Cleaned up the port side today. I took some length off the bolt that were sticking out and installed the knob. I also trimmed a little off the bottom of the blade and baseplates because they were sticking beneath the hull even with the blade retracted. It was because of the angle of the stern transom. easily remedied. I also added marks to easily tell each inch of lateral excursion on the blade.

Here's a revised Port side blade with the inch measurements:


I continued on the Starboard side and it certainly came out nicer. As planned, I learned from doing the one side and was able to make the more important side better. I relocated the channels a bit and just generally improved on all my mounting points.




Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-14-2014, 7:45 PM Reply   
Here is a pic that shows that the blade extends about 3/4" to 1" below the bottom of the hull. this was modeled after the NSS that does the same thing.

(this pic is before we cleaned up the edges and smoothed everything out)


Also, I added lines to the Starboard side too. This one extends 3" out laterally. In this pic, the edges were cleaned up nicely and it's in it's finished configuration. Next step is to water test.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-14-2014, 7:50 PM Reply   
Looks good man. Water test videos!!!!
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-14-2014, 7:53 PM Reply   
Definitely looks a lot nicer now that it's cleaned up with the sander. Very strong all around and a lot smoother on the port side with the redesigned channels and getting them cleaned up. I would still want to get a better sander on the bottom of the port side to make it flush with the transom. it is still protruding about 1/4" or so along the bottom and kind of acting like a trim tab.
I also retract my previous statement about them being countersunk. It would require a much thicker baseplate of HDPE to do that, probably 3/4" or more. That gets spendy and with the strength it has now, would just be overkill.
I can't wait to see how it works. I imagine the better part of the summer will be spent tuning it and trying new configurations. This opens up the window for more ballast configuration options as well.
Old     (Jed)      Join Date: Aug 2013       06-14-2014, 8:41 PM Reply   
Impressive. Can't wait to see water test results! Subscribed.
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       06-15-2014, 6:35 AM Reply   
inspirational!!! these are what wakeworld is really for!!!

subscribed!!
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-16-2014, 8:46 AM Reply   
Thanks all. I had hoped to get out on the water Sunday for Father's Day, but it rained. And again it's raining today. Stupid Pacific NW.

Hopefully I'll get out on the water on Wed or Thurs.
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       06-18-2014, 12:33 PM Reply   
We're all waiting to see/hear results.....................come on man!
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-18-2014, 12:49 PM Reply   
Believe me, out of everyone, besides Trayson, I want the results of this the most. Mainly because I get to help test it out to get those results. Haven't hit the water yet, probably tomorrow.
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       06-18-2014, 1:58 PM Reply   
Perfect day today.. just drove across the 205 bridge and the Columbia is nice and flat!!

anxious to see the results!
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-18-2014, 2:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightv10 View Post
Perfect day today.. just drove across the 205 bridge and the Columbia is nice and flat!!

anxious to see the results!
Maybe you should hook up with me then so we can go play! I'm stuck at work for the time being.

(otherwise we're looking at tomorrow for sure).
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       06-18-2014, 3:44 PM Reply   
well if you decide to go out this evening and need a third (or fourth, etc..) PM me. Love being part of groundbreaking technology like this . My boat is currently sitting in the driveway in pieces waiting for a new Seadek floor
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-18-2014, 5:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson View Post

The question I keep getting again and again is "do you think your hull is strong enough".

We'll find out. In a lot of ways, the baseplates are actually going to function to strengthen the hull. adding reinforcement in my opinion. In what way? You need to identify where the forces are going...and then identify the failure modes
The other guy that did it on his malibu is having it work just fine and he didn't even through bolt his...
The guy on the Malibu forums is using 3/8" HDPE for his blades and it's working just fine. I'm using 1/2" so mine is thicker. So your HDPE wont break? You should be thinking about designing a weak-link into the system. Thicker HDPE doesnt mean your hull is stronger, just that the HDPE is stronger

At least 2 of my bolts are on the swim platform backing plate. 2 are where there's extra hull material for the swim platform and the rest are near the corners where things would naturally be stronger. Someone has to be the innovator and risk taker. Naturally stronger? Just thicker, but also a stress concentrator. This will also be where you see the highest stresses. Think about leverage.... and how the forces will be distributed....
I think short term you might very well see zero issues.... but long term I think this is a nightmare. You should really be using a doubler on the inside of your transom. The main issue I see here is the pressure from washers... Throw a doubler back there and you will greatly reduce the spider cracking. The outboard fasters are going to see the highest stresses... and those are the ones you didnt put a doubler on.



I hate to be the one to say it, but that looks janky back there. At least build a jig for a router and find someone with band saw.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       06-18-2014, 6:02 PM Reply   
Good for you that you're willing to drill holes and try it out!

If it breaks...just make the next revision stronger...
Can't wait to see the wave pics
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-18-2014, 11:44 PM Reply   
Okay, went out for the first night of testing. Bottom line is that it works with some minor concessions. I can most certainly get a totally surfable wave with even weighting and my surf blades. The concessions so far is that it seems like I'm lacking a little bit of push. it's not a deal breaker, as I can certainly surf it. But it seemed noticeable to me.

BUT, the driveability of the boat is vastly improved. I was able to drop the speed at which the boat needed to go by a full MPH. The boat at rest is comfortable and we could have lunch on the boat without it being a listed PITA. We can sit at rest and have a barge go by and not get water over the trunk with the rollers. And we can switch from regular to goofy in 10 seconds flat.

Sorry for all the shots with the sun in your eyes. We tried to run upstream with all of them to be consistent.

Pretty much all these were done with the perfect pass set at 9.7 mph. we filled the 370 tube sack in the trunk. Then we pretty much filled a 750 and put it on the surf side on the floor beside the doghouse to start a bit listed and closer to "normal" (minus another 500 or so that we usually double stack with). So EVERYTHING has the 370 under the rear seat. In addition to that, I did the following configurations:


750 surf side no blade


750 on the surf side with 3" blade deployment
This improved the look of the wave. Not dramatically but noticeable for sure.


750 on surf side with 1" blade deployment


750's on both sides with no blades.
Is anyone surprised that this looks like crap? I didn't think so.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-18-2014, 11:51 PM Reply   
So then we went on of course to deploy the gates with the boat equally weighted.
Again, sorry for the pic quality. I never thought about the sun.

3 inch blade deployment equal weighting


I believe that this is the 1" deployment with equal weighting. Not 100% sure though.


Goofy side with 3" blade deployment
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-19-2014, 12:00 AM Reply   
And finally a couple surf shots.


..



Russ thought it was a pretty decent wave on the goofy side. He didn't feel my "decrease in push" criticisms but it was also his first time on my boat... Sadly we had to cut his run short as the water in the gas made it so we couldn't continue to pull at surf speeds.


And here is a picture from 10 days ago with a slammed/listed boat with my 750's double stacked on the surf side and water running at the rub rail halfway up the hull while underway.


Sadly our testing got cut short because the surf starboard side gate had the unfortunate side effect when deployed of shooting a little spray of water right at the gas tank breather vent. And I ended up with the old "water in the fuel" thing and my engine wasn't happy with me under load. I guess relocating that vent has just moved WAY up on my priority list.

In summary, I feel like these NSS style blades can get a surfable wave with an evenly weighted boat. It's very comparable to the quality of wave I'd get with listing my boat with my two 750's double stacked and the top one 1/2 to 3/4 full. What I did feel is that my wave seemed a little lacking in push compared to what I remember it being with a heavily listed boat. BUT, the usability and drive-ability and comfort of being in the boat is VASTLY improved even with 2 huge sacks taking up the floor. So I'll continue to refine it and dial things in and overall I'd call it a success.

Is it perfect? of course not. Does it make my direct drive have a wake comparable to a perfectly dialed in v-drive, no. But it's giving me more options and is certainly something that opens whole new doors of opportunity with my boat.

Last edited by trayson; 06-19-2014 at 12:03 AM.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-19-2014, 12:09 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
I think short term you might very well see zero issues.... but long term I think this is a nightmare. You should really be using a doubler on the inside of your transom. The main issue I see here is the pressure from washers... Throw a doubler back there and you will greatly reduce the spider cracking. The outboard fasters are going to see the highest stresses... and those are the ones you didnt put a doubler on.



I hate to be the one to say it, but that looks janky back there. At least build a jig for a router and find someone with band saw.
Please explain what you mean by a doubler. I'm not familiar with what you're trying to convey.

And as far as the asthetics, I'm perfectly fine to live with it. I did the best I could with the tools and resources I had. If I had different and better tools, I'm sure I could have produced a prettier outcome. However, I had a window of time that I was willing to devote to this project and I pushed through and made it happen. I won't lose any sleep over how it looks on my boat.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-19-2014, 12:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightv10 View Post
well if you decide to go out this evening and need a third (or fourth, etc..) PM me. Love being part of groundbreaking technology like this . My boat is currently sitting in the driveway in pieces waiting for a new Seadek floor
Thanks for coming out and taking part in the first water test. That was great to have you along.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-19-2014, 4:44 AM Reply   
Great job man. Who cares what it looks like. It's the functionality that matters. The wave looks improved for sure. And the big thing is now you probably won't have to sink your boat so far to surf it. Major props! Pun intended. Haha
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       06-19-2014, 5:16 AM Reply   
Good job man, looks great!

You have yourself an older ski boat that puts out one great surf for a fraction of the price!

Atta boy Midnight! Good to see you out there actually in the water rather than laying seadeck down lol
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       06-19-2014, 6:16 AM Reply   
When I was playing with my "ghetto gate" last year, I found it cleaned the wave up very nicely but murdered my push. I need to try a different angle and attempt it again, but fear the same results. It was great for pictures, bad for results.
Old    Tom (TomH)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-19-2014, 6:19 AM Reply   
Looks good so far. I believe what Joe was saying about a 'doubler' is a backing plate on the inside of the hull, especially for the three bolts that are closest to the side which will see a lot of the force, and also happen to be in the thinnest part of the fiberglass. If you've got spare HDPE, and still have access, it wouldn't be a bad idea, as it'd transfer a lot of that stress to the backer plate and spread out the load in that area, similar to reinforcing underneath the deck for a tower. I'll be interested to see how it goes, as I could see this working well on my boat. Good luck.
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       06-19-2014, 7:11 AM Reply   
Pretty cool to see some results from your work. More tweaking the more improved it should become. I think the general consensus out there is that the surf systems tend to lack the push that the "listed" boats have. I think it is also the general consensus to load both sides of the boat, but then keep adding weight to the surf side until you are happy. We run our system evenly weighted and then add a 700lb bag on the surf side and the people sit over there. Boat still drives great and we have a very slight list. Good strategy to start with as you start to dial it.
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       06-19-2014, 9:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson View Post
Thanks for coming out and taking part in the first water test. That was great to have you along.
Trayson - Thanks for having me along! Nice to meet you and your family, had a great time.

I thought the system worked great, definitely produced a good surfable wave on both sides with the benefit of an evenly weighted boat and the ability to switch sides in seconds. Great work man!! hopefully next time we go out I can get a little longer set in

Nik - I wish I was laying SeaDek - still waiting for it to be cut
Old     (whiteflashwatersports1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       06-19-2014, 1:04 PM Reply   
Good work and keep trying. Cool to see people take chances like this. Hopefully you can get it where you want it. The systems all seem to lack push because without listing your not displacing as much water you are delaying the convergence of the water to crerate the wave hence lees push. Most of my friends with surf systems still list in order to get the push they are used to.

The one thing that sucks is wet suits in ?June? WTF I could never handle that being a florida dude
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-19-2014, 1:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteflashwatersports1 View Post
Good work and keep trying. Cool to see people take chances like this. Hopefully you can get it where you want it. The systems all seem to lack push because without listing your not displacing as much water you are delaying the convergence of the water to crerate the wave hence lees push. Most of my friends with surf systems still list in order to get the push they are used to.

The one thing that sucks is wet suits in ?June? WTF I could never handle that being a florida dude
I just threw on a 2 mil jacket. the sun was going down and it was 65 air and 61.5 water temp. I thought I was cold blooded, but Russ topped me with a full suit in over 60 degree water.
Old    Russ Constable (Midnightv10)      Join Date: Feb 2012       06-19-2014, 1:10 PM Reply   
I hate being cold
Old    Connor (iShredSAN)      Join Date: Apr 2012       06-19-2014, 1:39 PM Reply   
Did Surf Addict drown? I haven't seen anything from him on this thread since the initial run and I figured he would be the first to give a "review"... Anyhow, awesome job man, I love these DIY threads!
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-19-2014, 2:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by iShredSAN View Post
Did Surf Addict drown? I haven't seen anything from him on this thread since the initial run and I figured he would be the first to give a "review"... Anyhow, awesome job man, I love these DIY threads!
LOL. He didn't go out with us last night. He chose to stay at home and watch the kids so that his wife could hit up the gym (assuming that we'd be out late). Which was true since we didn't get back to the launch until easily 9:30pm.

He's going out on the boat tonight, but we might not get to ride the new system because my fuel tank breather is in the completley wrong spot now and the startboard blade shoots a small spray of water right at the stupid vent. So, until I get that vent relocated, I can't use the SSS to surf regular. I know relocating it's an "easy" job, but with the limited time I have between getting off work and trying to get into the water, I don't know if I will have enough time for that too... I'm already facing having to possibly drain all the fuel that got water in it.
Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       06-19-2014, 8:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by iShredSAN View Post
Did Surf Addict drown? I haven't seen anything from him on this thread since the initial run and I figured he would be the first to give a "review"... Anyhow, awesome job man, I love these DIY threads!
X2

On the money.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-19-2014, 10:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by iShredSAN View Post
Did Surf Addict drown? I haven't seen anything from him on this thread since the initial run and I figured he would be the first to give a "review"... Anyhow, awesome job man, I love these DIY threads!
He didn't drown, but he did get bit by a dog....
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-20-2014, 8:04 AM Reply   
The stars haven't been aligning for me for going out lately, Saturday should be a go though. I think I may have a temp solution to the breather problem though until it can be relocated. How about taking one of those small plastic cups, like they give you on planes or similar, punch a few holes in it facing the rear or port side and tape it over the breather. This would act as a splash guard and still allow it to vent.
I love the pics, can't wait to get out and try it. Doc says I just need to keep the dog bite clean but should be good to surf this weekend. on antibiotics too, to fight potential infection
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       06-20-2014, 8:23 AM Reply   
Yeah... It's not official till we get the surf addict review!!..
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-20-2014, 8:44 AM Reply   
Haha! I'll write that up Saturday pending getting the fuel issue taken care of.

FYI: I'll post a little something here, but the main review will be in my surf system review thread.

Last edited by phathom; 06-20-2014 at 8:48 AM.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-21-2014, 3:15 PM Reply   
Going to post up pics and video of it to this thread and a full review in the other this evening.
Still on the water, just drained sacks and heading back. I will say this in short. This is a game changer for us. Same, if not more push than before, a lot cleaner wake, a LOT longer pocket. This was an epic surf day. I hate the word epic because it's overused, for me to use it, it actually has to be epic.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-21-2014, 5:03 PM Reply   
So, I relocated my fuel breather and drained the 22 gallons out of my tank and changed my fuel filter. Filled with new gas and once the bad gas was out of the lines, we were good to go.


Again, we filled the 370 tube sack under the rear seat and had the pair of 750's on either side of the doghouse. The boat sat mostly flat with a slight (couple inches) list to the port. We fine tuned with the placement of the rear seat spotter.

Bottom line is that I won't go back to listing. Today I had all the push I needed. I was riding my Ronix Caption 5'8 because just as we were leaving the dock my Koal illumanati dropped and cracked the tip of one of the tails and needs some fiberglass repair love.

I was able to ride way further back in the pocket. I was able to carve and shred the wave just fine. We were able to drop our surf speed from being in the 10 to 11 range down to being between 8.3 and 9 mph. The boat isn't working as hard and isn't slammed as much. We had some big rollers go by us and took no water over the stern. We have zero issues with dunking the nose either. With the ballast full, we can easily chill out and have lunch and be COMFORTABLE in the boat. Also, we can drive sitting down. It was bad enough before that I either sat on the top of the backrest of the chair, or just stood up to drive. Swapping from regular to goofy was literally a 10 to 20 second changeover.

Since we're not having to double stack bags, we were able to get 2 ballast pumps going at the same time to fill the 750's while my reversible impeller pump took care of the tube sack under the rear seat.

There is no adverse handling of the boat when going back to get the rider. If you turn against the blade, you kind of notice it but honestly it's not even something you notice unless you're looking for it. The boat comes out of the hole just fine and the wave is clean as soon as Perfect pass has you at surf speed.

We'll get some pics posted up but I would do this again in a heartbeat. Some of you might poo-poo what I've done, but the overall enjoyability of our boat just took a huge leap. I'm going to chalk this up as a success.

None of the pics are on my phone, so I only have a quick mirror shot.
Old    Jason Gardner (masongardner)      Join Date: Jan 2014       06-21-2014, 5:18 PM Reply   
ya! ya! Thats awesome. love the ability to not slam the boats to the point of being scared of driving around!!! Sweet looking wave!
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-21-2014, 5:45 PM Reply   
Here are a couple better pics of the wave. Now, is it a wave that tops a $40k to $100k vdrive? Probably not. But for a 1992 direct drive, I'm pretty happy.



This is only the 2nd time I've rode goofy. I'm a newb at it. And obviously regular is better on my boat. But FWIW, here's the goofy wave.
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-21-2014, 6:20 PM Reply   
That fuel vent must be 15" from the engine vent.
ABYC H-24

24.13.3 Separation between compartment ventilation
openings and fuel tank vent line termination shall be at
least 15 inches (38Inun). The tank vent shall have
provision to minimize the intake of water without
restricting the continuous release of vapor.
Old    Greg (elbastardo)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-21-2014, 6:39 PM Reply   
Yikes - Baitkiller good point. Your fuel vent is going right in to your engine fresh air intake. Seems like a really bad idea. Loving the surf system though. Don't blow yourself up.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-21-2014, 8:51 PM Reply   
Won't be hard to move it. I mean, what's *another* hole in the boat, right???
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-22-2014, 11:22 AM Reply   
Good point about the vent, didn't even think of that part when I saw the relocation.
Also I haven't got to do a review yet as right after I got back home we left again to the hot air balloon festival and we weren't back until late. Will get those pics and vids up soon. I got most of them taken today on my phone still.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       06-27-2014, 9:45 PM Reply   
Review is posted in the surf system thread. Pics and video included.
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1882723
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       06-28-2014, 9:59 PM Reply   
Good video of the results
http://youtu.be/B65zkbmlK4U
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-30-2014, 8:38 AM Reply   
When I did my gate-plate (NSS) test I was quite happy with the result as well. I found it worked well with about 1.5-2.5" of extension. As I said in my other post about my installation, if I were to do it all over, I would do the NSS style of system. One thing I did find was the port wake was steeper with the NSS style.

This weekend I did see something I didn't expect; we actually had too much ballast! Initially we had about 3.5k of ballast and 8 people in the boat. Don't get me wrong, the waves on both sides were surfable, but while draining the ballast as I was surfing, the lift/push got significantly better and of course, worse as we got closer to empty.

Here are the test shots of the NSS wave. The ride sessions last year showed the wave was very similar to the gated ride.




Last edited by Iceberg; 06-30-2014 at 8:46 AM.
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       07-14-2014, 1:43 PM Reply   
frank,

where is your post about your installation?

thnx
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-14-2014, 1:59 PM Reply   
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showt...ic+surf+system

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