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Old     (kregstrong)      Join Date: May 2014       08-17-2014, 10:05 AM Reply   
So I surfed yesterday behind a g23, and that was an incredible wave. So long and smooth. I'm looking to upgrade from my 2009 moomba lsv. I have 750s in lockers and 400 in center. Was wondering what's a good boat that could throw a wave like that g23. I'm looking for a 21-22 ft boat, really interested in the tige rz2, that's the boat I'm leaning towards, that or the z1. Will those boats have a comparable wave? Thanks
Old    MCXSTAR (snork)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-17-2014, 11:06 AM Reply   
I'll go out on a limb and say the G21
Old     (kregstrong)      Join Date: May 2014       08-17-2014, 11:45 AM Reply   
Can't afford the nautiques
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-17-2014, 11:51 AM Reply   
There's an RZ2 that surfs out on the lake I frequent.
That boat makes a KILLER wave.
I believe he's a member here also, so you can probably get info on how it's set up.
Old     (kregstrong)      Join Date: May 2014       08-17-2014, 12:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorlan View Post
There's an RZ2 that surfs out on the lake I frequent.
That boat makes a KILLER wave.
I believe he's a member here also, so you can probably get info on how it's set up.
Sweet. I'm looking for a used one, maybe 2012-2013. Found one for 65 but was hoping for one a bit cheaper
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-17-2014, 12:48 PM Reply   
Tige RZ1 and Mastercraft X-10s throw some of the best wakes in the that size range. The G21 is really good as well, a little less tested, and takes more weight.

I tend to think the z1 throws a better goofy/left wake than the rz2, but that can vary from year to year boat to boat.

I have a friend with a 2013 MCX-10 for sale, but maybe a high for what you are looking for.

Nick
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       08-17-2014, 12:53 PM Reply   
for 65K you can get a new 14 Supreme 226. of a left over new 13 for mid 50's . If you have not surfed one you are missing out.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-17-2014, 1:35 PM Reply   
The 226 no doubt is a great surfer, and was on my list to buy, and actually the reason we went to the Sac boat show.
Until I climbed up in it and threw up in my mouth a bit. Interior is very bland and and plain.
The wave and the exterior I drool over. But the interior killed it for me.
Would much rather go with the RZ2
Old    Trevor Miller (tmill)      Join Date: May 2011       08-17-2014, 2:06 PM Reply   
Check out the supra sc... We used that boat to tow the northwest wake surf open this year. Tons of people loved the wake! Check out the videos that wake 9 posted of it my opinion is a little biased though
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-17-2014, 4:03 PM Reply   
Regarding the Z1, we have been working and testing updated VX and taps for 2015 models for the Z3 and the Z1. So we have our boat, and then a 2013 Z1 that we setup to test and prototype. That said, the 2015 Z3 and Z1 will have wakes as good or better than my Z3 or Kyle Woodard's Z1. Here are 2 videos, the first one has the Z1 in it, both sides, shows the wake. Both of these boats are weighted in this video with only wake9 ballast bags, so just water. RJ will tell you, that he feels the Z1 can make as good of a wake or better than the Z3. The only issue with the Z1, is that you have to add more front weight to get it to a level where it is as good or better than the Z3. These 2 boats have been surfed for many hours with these setups, its fantastic.



This video is just the Z3, but its only like 20 seconds and shows great shots of both sides adjusted for different riders using only speed and taps, all weighted the same.



Hope that helps in your decision. As far as the G21, I know the Vilands have one and love it, and would be a good person to ask. The Z3 and Z1 will surf all day at 4-5 GPH, and the G21, according to Mike V is around 6-7, so the G21 doesn't seem to be in that dreaded 10+ GPH range that many have mentioned with the G23.

Good luck, any of those boats will be tons of fun.
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-17-2014, 5:28 PM Reply   
I cannot confirm specific of the GPH for the various power plants available, but you pretty much have to get one of the larger power plants, or you will not be able to add extra weight and get it up on plane in the G21. This is not unique to Nautique. Most every boat will be bogged down for surfing with the standard power plant.
Old     (kregstrong)      Join Date: May 2014       08-17-2014, 5:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
Tige RZ1 and Mastercraft X-10s throw some of the best wakes in the that size range. The G21 is really good as well, a little less tested, and takes more weight.

I tend to think the z1 throws a better goofy/left wake than the rz2, but that can vary from year to year boat to boat.

I have a friend with a 2013 MCX-10 for sale, but maybe a high for what you are looking for.

Nick
Well I'm goofy foot so that would make me lean a little more towards the z1.
Old     (kregstrong)      Join Date: May 2014       08-17-2014, 5:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
Regarding the Z1, we have been working and testing updated VX and taps for 2015 models for the Z3 and the Z1. So we have our boat, and then a 2013 Z1 that we setup to test and prototype. That said, the 2015 Z3 and Z1 will have wakes as good or better than my Z3 or Kyle Woodard's Z1. Here are 2 videos, the first one has the Z1 in it, both sides, shows the wake. Both of these boats are weighted in this video with only wake9 ballast bags, so just water. RJ will tell you, that he feels the Z1 can make as good of a wake or better than the Z3. The only issue with the Z1, is that you have to add more front weight to get it to a level where it is as good or better than the Z3. These 2 boats have been surfed for many hours with these setups, its fantastic.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/XKGkdgKZWzU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This video is just the Z3, but its only like 20 seconds and shows great shots of both sides adjusted for different riders using only speed and taps, all weighted the same.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/H8Fi4hZ---A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hope that helps in your decision. As far as the G21, I know the Vilands have one and love it, and would be a good person to ask. The Z3 and Z1 will surf all day at 4-5 GPH, and the G21, according to Mike V is around 6-7, so the G21 doesn't seem to be in that dreaded 10+ GPH range that many have mentioned with the G23.

Good luck, any of those boats will be tons of fun.
So on the z1 adding some extra weight to the front, is there a spot under the seats to add? I'm not familiar with those boats, I just don't wanna have to add on top of the seats or not be able to fill with the regular pumps.
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       08-17-2014, 5:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorlan View Post
The 226 no doubt is a great surfer, and was on my list to buy, and actually the reason we went to the Sac boat show.
Until I climbed up in it and threw up in my mouth a bit. Interior is very bland and and plain.
The wave and the exterior I drool over. But the interior killed it for me.
Would much rather go with the RZ2
I think the new carbon vinyl in the 226 looks great. I looked at Tige but could not get past the 70'S tuck and roll look that they put in their boats. Guess different strokes for different folks
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Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-17-2014, 5:51 PM Reply   
I can vouch for the 226 wave, but unfortunately it was the interior that got me into a MB.
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       08-17-2014, 6:05 PM Reply   
Supreme and MB use the same vinyl. We looked at the MB as well but could not get past the dash the shaky tower the cut away wind shield and the lack of free board the boat has when slammed.
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-17-2014, 6:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by h20king View Post
Supreme and MB use the same vinyl. We looked at the MB as well but could not get past the dash the shaky tower the cut away wind shield and the lack of free board the boat has when slammed.
I wasn't speaking to the actual material as much as the simplicity of the layout. I have noticed you get a bit grouchy when people speak to your interior Harold. Its odd you feel the tower is shakey, I have been in 3 different supremes and all of their owners have noted how my tower is more stable, and I have more speakers. Maybe they made yours a bit stronger. I really like the supreme's hull, I just feel they have a long ways to go (and think they will) now that centruionisim will be taking affect on the boats. I will probably be in a centurion in 2016, but the new MB23 has caught my eye as well. I haven't seen free-board as an issue in the similar class MB, the F22 has plenty. My boat is taller than I am on the trailer! Can be a pain sometimes. As for the cut-away windshield, I have yet to see someone that owns one actually hate on them, more boats are going to mimic this, very functional, I wouldn't go full if I had a choice.

Back on topic with the thread:
If I were rich I would have this http://www.superiorboatrepair.com/ne...29&pov=3838650

Last edited by WakeDirt; 08-17-2014 at 6:30 PM.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-17-2014, 6:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kregstrong View Post
So on the z1 adding some extra weight to the front, is there a spot under the seats to add? I'm not familiar with those boats, I just don't wanna have to add on top of the seats or not be able to fill with the regular pumps.
The Z3 and Z1 goofy wake on these 2 boats is incredible, Kyle's wife is Goofy, and of course RJ and all of my family other than me are goofy.

Kyle puts some lead under the front seats to supplement. the Z1 comes with 800 up front, maybe more for 2015 models. The new 2015 models have a Surf X system, where you won't even need bigger ballast unless you want to really push it. With the Surf X, I don't think you need more weight in the front of the Z1, but with our Z1 bags like Kyle has, he adds 300 or so lbs of lead under front seat. Keep in mind, that that should only be done in good conditions when it is safe.

Kyle used to put the Z3 bags in his Z1, but the new system makes a bigger wake with less weight, and so he is now using the bags made for the Z1, less weight than the Z3 bags, just needs a bit extra up front.

Here is Korrinn's mywake video, which is Kyle running with the extra weight in the front, and then the wake9 Z1 bags in the rear. He said that sometimes if it is only Korrinn and himself out, he may add a sac to the seat, but only when just the 2 of them. I am not sure if that is the case in this video.



As far as GPH goes, even at competitions with 3500-4000 lbs of water and 1500 lbs of people, our Z3 with the PCM 409 still does about 4 GPH. We have measure it many times, and have the receipts to prove it. ;-) The entire west coast wakesurf open was towed with our Z3, clocked 10+ hours on the hour meter. We have no gas dock on that lake and since there were so many riders the judges never took a break and the boat switches from side to side in 2 minutes. They went from 8am past 6pm towing the event. That night, we took the boat to fill up, 46 gallons.
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-17-2014, 6:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
The Z3 and Z1 goofy wake on these 2 boats is incredible, Kyle's wife is Goofy, and of course RJ and all of my family other than me are goofy.

Kyle puts some lead under the front seats to supplement. the Z1 comes with 800 up front, maybe more for 2015 models. The new 2015 models have a Surf X system, where you won't even need bigger ballast unless you want to really push it. With the Surf X, I don't think you need more weight in the front of the Z1, but with our Z1 bags like Kyle has, he adds 300 or so lbs of lead under front seat. Keep in mind, that that should only be done in good conditions when it is safe.

Kyle used to put the Z3 bags in his Z1, but the new system makes a bigger wake with less weight, and so he is now using the bags made for the Z1, less weight than the Z3 bags, just needs a bit extra up front.

Here is Korrinn's mywake video, which is Kyle running with the extra weight in the front, and then the wake9 Z1 bags in the rear. He said that sometimes if it is only Korrinn and himself out, he may add a sac to the seat, but only when just the 2 of them. I am not sure if that is the case in this video.



As far as GPH goes, even at competitions with 3500-4000 lbs of water and 1500 lbs of people, our Z3 with the PCM 409 still does about 4 GPH. We have measure it many times, and have the receipts to prove it. ;-) The entire west coast wakesurf open was towed with our Z3, clocked 10+ hours on the hour meter. We have no gas dock on that lake and since there were so many riders the judges never took a break and the boat switches from side to side in 2 minutes. They went from 8am past 6pm towing the event. That night, we took the boat to fill up, 46 gallons.
Do you have a x link pump? I assume that's what helps with the 2 minutes? 2 Min is fast!
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       08-17-2014, 6:43 PM Reply   
Dirt not touchy just sharing opinions and experience.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-17-2014, 6:47 PM Reply   
I have special prototype bags with 3 rear ports for 3 johnson crossovers. ;-) I just mention that to say the boat wasn't sitting idling all day, it was towing riders, I think it was like 60+ riders that day.
Old     (kregstrong)      Join Date: May 2014       08-17-2014, 6:52 PM Reply   
I really need to learn some more about these tiges, I want an awesome wake, but was hoping just a nice rear ballast bag would fix that without having to add a ton up front. Are the tige ballast under the floor or what?
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-17-2014, 7:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
I have special prototype bags with 3 rear ports for 3 johnson crossovers. ;-) I just mention that to say the boat wasn't sitting idling all day, it was towing riders, I think it was like 60+ riders that day.
Nice, that is awesome, even two would be sweet. I rode that boat that day in a clinic! Great wave, and great instruction from Kinsey.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-17-2014, 8:05 PM Reply   
Thank you, and its bullet proof, we just use special run dry impellers in the pumps, and we switch them in one at a time, not all at once, they surge. I don't think its ready for prime time yet, unless there is more time on where to put all the hoses, make more organized. But for weekend warriors, its great.

The wake is definitely great, and Tige is now taking the testing and research and putting this into production. That wake is going to be reproduced on all new 2015 Z3s and Z1s.

@kregstrong I am telling you about the weight Kyle adds up front in the spirit of full disclosure. I believe the new Z1 Surf X system will have like 850 bags in the corners stock, plus 250 hard tanks below them, plus 800 or maybe 900 (I am not sure of final yet) up front. That is going to make a MEAN wake.

Let me give you an example. This new setup we have on our boat, the primary purpose was to really take advantage of the COANDA effect that is unique to a tige boat since it is the only hull that has continuous rocker underneath. This allows the boat to sink down further than most boats that are flat or have hook, so the TAPS adjustment on a tige is much more noticeable. Now, the problem is that if you make that rocker too much on the hull, it does weird things at speed, like porpoise like crazy. Tige experimented with more rocker in the hull in the past to make a bigger wave, and it does, but as speed increases, it doesn't work so well. Enter the Convex VX. This is something that only engages at slower speed. So at higher speeds it is out of the water and not engaged at all, only the main hull is engaged. So you can shape the Convex VX to really optimize that Coanda effect. Its basically an upside down aircraft wing. Instead of lift, it creates suction. Yet for some reason, even though it pulls the boat down, it doesn't hurt fuel economy like a switch blade or wedge does. A lot of time has been spent on this.

So if the Coanda effect of the VX is maximized, then you have more wake with less weight. To illustrate this, we actually pulled out our Wake9 ballast bags and replaced them with the PRO STOCK bags the boat came with. Think of the difference. The Wake9 bags hold about 1300 lbs of water each. The PRO STOCK rear bags hold exactly 350 lbs of water each. That is a HUGE step down in weight. Here is a UNLISTED video we did of our Z3 with this stock setup, I was in the boat with 2 young kids. No wife or other people.

When we are doing testing for Tige, we make videos all the time that don't get released to the public, but I can show this now. This was filmed at the end of last season and created on 2/16/2014. I was planning on releasing it, hence the titles and music, but never did. Only now able to talk about it. This entire video is stock weight, and you can see its not quite as big as above, and you can see the side views, the rub rail is farther away from the water.



Then in March of this year, we went a step further and polished it all up and sealed the convex vx to the hull, which helps maximize the suction/coanda effect. When we did this the effect was even greater, especially when you speed up. We found that if you put taps around 4 and go to like 12 MPH, the wave gets bigger and longer, where before the wake would get smaller and longer with more speed. When you speed up, the wake gets harder and your board just releases off of the lip without "sticking" to the water as much. This is why lately you see RJ, Allison, and Emily boosting higher than they ever have. Here are 2 videos, the iPhone shots are when we are going faster, making that monster.



Its waist high, and long at 12 mph.



OK, one last video, also short for the regular side. A friend of ours, Dan Sauvageau, has a brand new 2013 Z3 without the VX. He used to have a 2013 Malibu 23LSV, and it was at the polar bear. We used to call him Malibu Dan, now we call him the guy formerly known as malibu dan. ;-) Anyway, he loves his wake and didn't think he needed or wanted the VX. We explained what we were doing and how this works, and he was a bit skeptical. So I filmed this little test. You have to listen very closely, but you will hear him talk about how hard the wake gets, long, and how he wants one.



So to sum up, the new VX is like Viagra for the surf wake except it lasts all day without any problem. ;-)

Sorry for all the video, but this stuff is too much fun.
Old     (kregstrong)      Join Date: May 2014       08-17-2014, 8:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
Thank you, and its bullet proof, we just use special run dry impellers in the pumps, and we switch them in one at a time, not all at once, they surge. I don't think its ready for prime time yet, unless there is more time on where to put all the hoses, make more organized. But for weekend warriors, its great.

The wake is definitely great, and Tige is now taking the testing and research and putting this into production. That wake is going to be reproduced on all new 2015 Z3s and Z1s.

@kregstrong I am telling you about the weight Kyle adds up front in the spirit of full disclosure. I believe the new Z1 Surf X system will have like 850 bags in the corners stock, plus 250 hard tanks below them, plus 800 or maybe 900 (I am not sure of final yet) up front. That is going to make a MEAN wake.

Let me give you an example. This new setup we have on our boat, the primary purpose was to really take advantage of the COANDA effect that is unique to a tige boat since it is the only hull that has continuous rocker underneath. This allows the boat to sink down further than most boats that are flat or have hook, so the TAPS adjustment on a tige is much more noticeable. Now, the problem is that if you make that rocker too much on the hull, it does weird things at speed, like porpoise like crazy. Tige experimented with more rocker in the hull in the past to make a bigger wave, and it does, but as speed increases, it doesn't work so well. Enter the Convex VX. This is something that only engages at slower speed. So at higher speeds it is out of the water and not engaged at all, only the main hull is engaged. So you can shape the Convex VX to really optimize that Coanda effect. Its basically an upside down aircraft wing. Instead of lift, it creates suction. Yet for some reason, even though it pulls the boat down, it doesn't hurt fuel economy like a switch blade or wedge does. A lot of time has been spent on this.

So if the Coanda effect of the VX is maximized, then you have more wake with less weight. To illustrate this, we actually pulled out our Wake9 ballast bags and replaced them with the PRO STOCK bags the boat came with. Think of the difference. The Wake9 bags hold about 1300 lbs of water each. The PRO STOCK rear bags hold exactly 350 lbs of water each. That is a HUGE step down in weight. Here is a UNLISTED video we did of our Z3 with this stock setup, I was in the boat with 2 young kids. No wife or other people.

When we are doing testing for Tige, we make videos all the time that don't get released to the public, but I can show this now. This was filmed at the end of last season and created on 2/16/2014. I was planning on releasing it, hence the titles and music, but never did. Only now able to talk about it. This entire video is stock weight, and you can see its not quite as big as above, and you can see the side views, the rub rail is farther away from the water.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/f1xwBWxqNeA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Then in March of this year, we went a step further and polished it all up and sealed the convex vx to the hull, which helps maximize the suction/coanda effect. When we did this the effect was even greater, especially when you speed up. We found that if you put taps around 4 and go to like 12 MPH, the wave gets bigger and longer, where before the wake would get smaller and longer with more speed. When you speed up, the wake gets harder and your board just releases off of the lip without "sticking" to the water as much. This is why lately you see RJ, Allison, and Emily boosting higher than they ever have. Here are 2 videos, the iPhone shots are when we are going faster, making that monster.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WuBh99A3HBA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Its waist high, and long at 12 mph.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/idcHaejw61Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

OK, one last video, also short for the regular side. A friend of ours, Dan Sauvageau, has a brand new 2013 Z3 without the VX. He used to have a 2013 Malibu 23LSV, and it was at the polar bear. We used to call him Malibu Dan, now we call him the guy formerly known as malibu dan. ;-) Anyway, he loves his wake and didn't think he needed or wanted the VX. We explained what we were doing and how this works, and he was a bit skeptical. So I filmed this little test. You have to listen very closely, but you will hear him talk about how hard the wake gets, long, and how he wants one.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/n2Tq_Tn4758" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So to sum up, the new VX is like Viagra for the surf wake except it lasts all day without any problem. ;-)

Sorry for all the video, but this stuff is too much fun.
Man that's awesome. I sent you a private message. I'm really interested in this tige just a 2015 will be way out of my price range for a few years haha
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-17-2014, 8:15 PM Reply   
I hear ya. Have fun on your search, test a lot of boats.

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