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Old    Bryce Pool (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-25-2014, 5:09 PM Reply   
I've seen a few guys on the forums that are running Sundown Audio subs. Does anyone have direct feedback of them compared to say, a W7 and the Wetsounds XXXv2? I've heard that Sundown blows the W7 away. I am interested in the X series (1250 RMS) and the Zv3 series (1750 RMS) each 12" subs. I will run it off the SD2 (1250 RMS) so instinct says get the X series. But the Zv3 is the best sub they have, and it is only 75 bucks more. I will only be running 1 sub in this boat, so I really want it to be the best sub I can get. It looks like they take a fairly small enclosure too, 2 ft^3 ported. Would it be beneficial one way or another on which sub to get? Not looking to start a **** show, just interested in feedback on the X or Zv4 series subs if anyone has experience with them.
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-25-2014, 5:14 PM Reply   
I'd like to know how their amps are! From what Ive heard they throw out some impressive numbers and not crazy expensive
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       02-25-2014, 5:15 PM Reply   
I have heard some decent things about sundown. a truck forum im on has them as a vendor, so some of the reviews may be slightly jaded. Im a dc person myself, but folks say in a marine environment, dc is not the way to go because they get hot. if these dont pan out, I will throw them in my truck and my next go around will be sundown.
I think the JL line is wayy overpriced. Id say give it a shot and let us know!
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       02-25-2014, 5:17 PM Reply   
as for the amps, I have not heard one negative thing about them. they put out good power, but damn are they spendy!
as for comparison, word has it that arc is the internals for wetsounds amps, and sundown is the internals for the DC audio amps
Old    Bryce Pool (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-25-2014, 5:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliottsx80 View Post
I'd like to know how their amps are! From what Ive heard they throw out some impressive numbers and not crazy expensive
I noticed that in searching around too. You could easily run 2 of there Zv4 subs off 1 amp. There is one that is 6500 watts RMS
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       02-25-2014, 5:21 PM Reply   
remember though, the sundown subs are an SPL sub. im sure this will be mentioned in the thread.
Old    Bryce Pool (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-25-2014, 5:25 PM Reply   
Right, which I think is what I want in a boat. The Zv4 and X series are also supposed to be for extreme daily drivers with the "traditional" sound they call it. So I dont think these ones are just for burping and sounding like ****???
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-25-2014, 6:28 PM Reply   
Here is the lowdown on Sundown and a host of other woofers that are designed and constructed in the a similar manner.
A paper woofer cone is pretty simple and a readily available part in many thicknesses. You just keep using a thicker cone (also progressively heavier) until you get enough rigidity to fit the particular woofer's needs. This is essentially an off-the-shelf solution.
Here's one of the the most revealing issues. These brands typically use a common voice coil, spider diameter and magnet/motor structure in multiple sizes within the same series, like a 10, 12, 15 & 18" sub. That means that there is no possibility, despite all the sales rhetoric, that any of the woofers but one within that series has been optimized, which makes it less likely that even one woofer was truly optimized.
Once some of this is pointed out, you do not have to be an engineer to see it. Use common sense.
A woofer's primary job is to move air, and not push around enough mass to constitiute a telephone directory. Yet, in the name of power handling they often use up to four spiders and massive voice coils with layers upon layers of windings to handle more power and more abuse. Anything with that much voice coil inductance, weight, inertia or mechanical resistance can't be a precision reproduction instrument.
Now some woofers will have more 'peak' output than other woofers of the same size and obvious dimensions. But the SPL model also have decidedly less bandwidth in deep bass extension and upper midbass extension. Another woofer can have the same collective energy but that energy is more evenly distributed over a wider bandwidth with a far more linear (smooth, flat, consistent) response. In other words, a broader frequency range is treated equally. You can exchange one for the other but you will not get all those attributes in a single woofer. A singular focus is automatically a compromise in some other design element. You cannot cheat physics.
When you see a woofer line with multiple series using the same frame/basket and all the sizes of baskets within that series use the same diameter spider then here is another big design problem. A larger voice coil diameter of the upgrade woofer with the same O.D. spider means that as the VC gets progressively larger the functioning spider radius becomes progressively smaller. That's correct....a more powerful woofer with supposedly more excursion having a smaller effective spider area. What does that mean? You actually have less flexibility as you increase the Xmass (excursion). That's not engineeering. It's sourcing Asian parts out of a catelog and piecing them together, some assmebled in the States, some assembled overseas. But where they are assembled doesn't really matter. A Frankenstein of parts is still the same monster regardless of the place it was assembled.
On another note, the larger magnet does not always represent better performance. More electrical damping usually raises the resonance and that raises the deep bass cut-off point. Good woofer design requires a balanced approach within any size and series. You can raise the sensitivity with a larger magnet but that also may dictate a larger box requirement or may yield less deep bass extension. And btw, a big cheap magnet isn't necessarily any stronger than a smaller magnet. A neo magnet the size of a quarter is as powerful as a ferrite magnet the size of a hockey puck, and so on. Magnets are not mined out of the ground with a charge. They must be charged. And magnet quality can greatly fluctuate within the same model of woofer. And good woofer builder does this in house and has total quality control. People are way too quick to accept quality and value based on the physical bulk of something or meaningless specs on paper that are rarely qualified.

JL Audio was mentioned above and some people do not understand where the added expense is. In every size and every series of a domestically made JL woofer, from the W3 to W6 to W7, each woofer has a unique basket, spider, voice coil and motor structure. They share nothing. Every one of these woofers are optimized as an individual woofer. And as you go forward in the line with greater excursion and output capacity you give nothing back in the way of SQ or performance. Guess what. There is actually real engineering at work.

The JL Audio may not be your cup of tea. The Sundown may be more of what you want. Sundown and other similar woofers do appeal to a certain market segment and people see obvious value in the lower cost for what appears to their eye or ear to be something comparable or even louder. But to compare the two is.....well, like comparing a race horse to a plow horse. Each has a role.
Old    Bryce Pool (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-25-2014, 7:04 PM Reply   
Man David you have been busy today answering questions! Thanks for that! I noticed right away earlier that for each size from the 10" to 18" the Sundown has the same RMS handling capabilities. That was a big red flag, and I assumed they just used the same parts on a bigger cone and surround, which you confirmed. I also didnt notice it was a paper cone, like Exile.........(crickets???).........
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-25-2014, 7:44 PM Reply   
I wanna know more about their amps DAVID, thinking about using them in my next build.
Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-25-2014, 10:38 PM Reply   
So David offered the technical expertise, and I believe all that to be true. However, I put two 10" sa subs in the back of my buddies truck due to the space requirements and you would be hard pressed to find a sub that fits in the same space, handles the same power sounds that good for anywhere close to the price. I'm a big jl fan and have two w3 12's in my boat but if I was going to do it again I'd go with sundown. They actually sound good, not great but good and the spl is amazing for the price. Im sure corners were cut making them but the end result is they still rip. I'm not listening for bass nuances and audiophile quality in my boat though. I'll save that for my house or a setting that better lends itself to that kind of listening. My brothers recording studio sounds great but I can't hear it wake boarding and I certainly couldn't hear the quality of it over engine noise and wind while cruising.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-26-2014, 12:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidAnalog View Post
Here is the lowdown on Sundown and a host of other woofers that are designed and constructed in the a similar manner.
A paper woofer cone is pretty simple and a readily available part in many thicknesses. You just keep using a thicker cone (also progressively heavier) until you get enough rigidity to fit the particular woofer's needs. This is essentially an off-the-shelf solution.
Here's one of the the most revealing issues. These brands typically use a common voice coil, spider diameter and magnet/motor structure in multiple sizes within the same series, like a 10, 12, 15 & 18" sub. That means that there is no possibility, despite all the sales rhetoric, that any of the woofers but one within that series has been optimized, which makes it less likely that even one woofer was truly optimized.
Once some of this is pointed out, you do not have to be an engineer to see it. Use common sense.
A woofer's primary job is to move air, and not push around enough mass to constitiute a telephone directory. Yet, in the name of power handling they often use up to four spiders and massive voice coils with layers upon layers of windings to handle more power and more abuse. Anything with that much voice coil inductance, weight, inertia or mechanical resistance can't be a precision reproduction instrument.
Now some woofers will have more 'peak' output than other woofers of the same size and obvious dimensions. But the SPL model also have decidedly less bandwidth in deep bass extension and upper midbass extension. Another woofer can have the same collective energy but that energy is more evenly distributed over a wider bandwidth with a far more linear (smooth, flat, consistent) response. In other words, a broader frequency range is treated equally. You can exchange one for the other but you will not get all those attributes in a single woofer. A singular focus is automatically a compromise in some other design element. You cannot cheat physics.
When you see a woofer line with multiple series using the same frame/basket and all the sizes of baskets within that series use the same diameter spider then here is another big design problem. A larger voice coil diameter of the upgrade woofer with the same O.D. spider means that as the VC gets progressively larger the functioning spider radius becomes progressively smaller. That's correct....a more powerful woofer with supposedly more excursion having a smaller effective spider area. What does that mean? You actually have less flexibility as you increase the Xmass (excursion). That's not engineeering. It's sourcing Asian parts out of a catelog and piecing them together, some assmebled in the States, some assembled overseas. But where they are assembled doesn't really matter. A Frankenstein of parts is still the same monster regardless of the place it was assembled.
On another note, the larger magnet does not always represent better performance. More electrical damping usually raises the resonance and that raises the deep bass cut-off point. Good woofer design requires a balanced approach within any size and series. You can raise the sensitivity with a larger magnet but that also may dictate a larger box requirement or may yield less deep bass extension. And btw, a big cheap magnet isn't necessarily any stronger than a smaller magnet. A neo magnet the size of a quarter is as powerful as a ferrite magnet the size of a hockey puck, and so on. Magnets are not mined out of the ground with a charge. They must be charged. And magnet quality can greatly fluctuate within the same model of woofer. And good woofer builder does this in house and has total quality control. People are way too quick to accept quality and value based on the physical bulk of something or meaningless specs on paper that are rarely qualified.

JL Audio was mentioned above and some people do not understand where the added expense is. In every size and every series of a domestically made JL woofer, from the W3 to W6 to W7, each woofer has a unique basket, spider, voice coil and motor structure. They share nothing. Every one of these woofers are optimized as an individual woofer. And as you go forward in the line with greater excursion and output capacity you give nothing back in the way of SQ or performance. Guess what. There is actually real engineering at work.

The JL Audio may not be your cup of tea. The Sundown may be more of what you want. Sundown and other similar woofers do appeal to a certain market segment and people see obvious value in the lower cost for what appears to their eye or ear to be something comparable or even louder. But to compare the two is.....well, like comparing a race horse to a plow horse. Each has a role.
Does that mean that one of the sizes throughout each line *is* properly engineered? Was it all designed appropriately around one size (say 12") and the parts are used across the rest of the line? If so, some basic testing across the line would hypothetically tell you which of the line was optimized and your best buy would be that sub...

Devils advocate
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-26-2014, 3:28 AM Reply   
I've ran the SA models for years on my boat with no problems. Its only a 600 watt rms sub but I've thrown 800-1000 watts and have had no problems. I got a buddy that runs a 15 zv3 on his boat running 2200 watts rms and it sounds good and gets LOUD.
Old    Tim (dezul)      Join Date: Jul 2012       02-26-2014, 3:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_mn View Post
Does that mean that one of the sizes throughout each line *is* properly engineered? Was it all designed appropriately around one size (say 12") and the parts are used across the rest of the line? If so, some basic testing across the line would hypothetically tell you which of the line was optimized and your best buy would be that sub...

Devils advocate
I think you need to go back and reread what he wrote. Basically he said if a line of subs all use the same magnet and spider, one sub out of the line is probably optimized over the other sub sizes in the line. However, that does not mean the sub was optimized by a quality sound engineer. Chances are if they skimped on the materials to make the sub, aka using the same size magnet, spider, and similiar baskets, chances are the company skimped on the sound engineer as well.
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-26-2014, 4:24 AM Reply   
Well I've had all the of the SA line 10,12,and 15's and they have all sounded good and were pretty loud for a 600 watt rms sub. Nice thing about these if something does happen to one a re-cone is only $30. I would put the sound quality and loudness comparable to the old version of the wet sounds XXX. I haven't heard the new version. But that's the $175 SA-12. Both run off 1000 watts in a ported enclosure.
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-26-2014, 8:23 AM Reply   
The priorities of a Sundown class of woofer is often revealed in their descriptive terms, such as, 'louder', 'hit', 'hammers', 'slams', and so on. Usually percussive terms describing a clumsy piston.
That which is higher output does so over a narrower bandwidth. I can place a JL Audio woofer in a misaligned bass-reflex enclosure and make it do the same thing. I've only scratched the surface of what may or may not go into a subwoofer. But you can bank on this...."it is louder and sounds just as good", is total nonsense. That certainly is the perception of a few but is simply not the case to an educated ear listening to real instruments.

The YouTube videos created by the Sundown advocates, whether by the sellers or users, demonstrate lots of 'burp', blap', and wicked overhang. I know. I know. I know. You can't tell anything from an internet transmission over computer speakers. But actually you can hear bass articulation, pitch accuracy and tonal construction over a YouTube video. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRjAg...=RDU80YZbuIzGw

A lot of this may come down to the type of music you listen to. There is mostly artificial bass coming from a keyboard or computer in Techno, Rap and Hip Hop. It has no soul. It's not a real instrument. So a JL Audio woofer is not going to distinquish itself if that is all you listen to.
In contrast, if a Rickenbacker bass guitar has dual outputs yeilding two different and distinct overtones. I want to hear it....all of it with every nuance intact. It's just what suits me. There is a happy user for both.
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-26-2014, 8:36 AM Reply   
In an open air enviorment with wind, engine noise, etc.. The SA did sound just as good as the XXXv1 and had more ouput. Maybe in a controlled enviorment the results might be different.
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-26-2014, 8:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM07SS View Post
In an open air enviorment with wind, engine noise, etc.. The SA did sound just as good as the XXXv1 and had more ouput. Maybe in a controlled enviorment the results might be different.
Brad, I have to completely agree that when underway at speed, the wind, movement & engine exhaust conditions are a great equalizer.
At rest however, an open environment may not be the best for producing the loudest bass but you can definitely hear the difference in sound quality. It's much like an anechoic chamber in that you only hear the direct radiation without reflection, without standing waves, and without extended overhang. But again, if you are playing the sub system at a level that can be heard with some authority several boats away while at rest, then SQ attributes are long gone. The amplifier is into compression and the woofer is into serious overhang mode.
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-26-2014, 12:48 PM Reply   
soooooo does anyone know much about their amps?
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-26-2014, 1:04 PM Reply   
Amps are kick ass, you can usually find pretty good deals on http://www.caraudioclassifieds.org/f...no-amplifiers/ I run a there Sundown 3500d on 4 sa12's. It's a very efficient amp which is good for a boat.
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-26-2014, 1:13 PM Reply   
thats what i was looking to hear. i wonder how that 3500 would do on 2 13w7s
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-26-2014, 1:18 PM Reply   
or the saz5000 on 2 13w7s
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-26-2014, 1:44 PM Reply   
The saz3500 wired to 1.5 ohm would put out close to 2600-2800 watts as they're underrated a little.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-26-2014, 2:49 PM Reply   
How much of this is audible to the human ear and how much of it is beauty in the eye of the beholder? Some want subs that are going to be 90% bass hip hop where other its mostly punk and rock. Not all are going to do the same. So the sundown cheap crappy under engineered subs might just work fine for your application.
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-26-2014, 2:55 PM Reply   
The 2 x12's on the saz3500 would sound better and have more output than the 13w7's.
Old    Chris Dirty (Dmac420sj)      Join Date: Mar 2012       02-26-2014, 4:10 PM Reply   
^better? Idk bout all that ,those 13w7's bang!
Old    Chris Dirty (Dmac420sj)      Join Date: Mar 2012       02-26-2014, 4:10 PM Reply   
They send ripples across the lake. That's a fact jack
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-26-2014, 4:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM07SS View Post
The 2 x12's on the saz3500 would sound better and have more output than the 13w7's.
Please. It's getting ridiculous. A 13.5" 13W7 has one/third more surface area than a 12" woofer. A 12" would have to move one/third farther peak to peak to equal the same output. Output is never as efficient to generate by excursion as it is by surface area, so it would take way more than the one/third additional amplifier power. By that time the voice coil is coming out of the motor gap and you are fighting the inertia of all that mass violently changing directions 150 times per second. The voltage supply is sagging because the amplifier is working harder. The unregulated amplifier is now losing power. It's a whole chain of events. You cannot overcome that much difference in surface area. You just can't rewrite the laws of physics.
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-26-2014, 4:46 PM Reply   
Have you even heard or did install on x12?? I'm not dogging the 13w7 but with about 800-900 more watts I do believe the x's will get louder. The jl's can only be wired down to 1.5 ohm where the x-12 will be wired at 1 ohm.
Old    Jason (corerider)      Join Date: May 2008       02-26-2014, 5:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidAnalog View Post
You cannot overcome that much difference in surface area. You just can't rewrite the laws of physics.


I just couldn't help myself... I picture Dr. Sheldon Cooper every time I read your posts now David.
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-26-2014, 6:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM07SS View Post
Have you even heard or did install on x12?? I'm not dogging the 13w7 but with about 800-900 more watts I do believe the x's will get louder. The jl's can only be wired down to 1.5 ohm where the x-12 will be wired at 1 ohm.
Then use regulated amplification and power the JL 13W7 to full potential or use a larger amplifier that generates the same power at a 0.5-ohm higher load. No problem. Either way it will be a more efficient way to achieve output. 'IF' powered equally there is no way that a 12" is going to keep pace in output with a 13.5". Making up that 33% differential in surface area with more excursion is simply too much for the amplifier and woofer to overcome. It is simply pushing the train up hill. You are attempting to get results the hard way.

My point is not brand related.

It is exactly like putting more power to a Rev8 and trying to make it play louder than a Rev10. Just the wrong approach if you have the available space.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       02-26-2014, 7:06 PM Reply   
Is that true then of the sub's that run all the same materials but just have larger cones like the ones previously mentioned in this thread?
Old    Mike North Carolina (MIKEnNC)      Join Date: Nov 2012       02-26-2014, 7:16 PM Reply   
Typical wake world. One person with true knowledge and that knows what they r talking about battling fanboys. Well David is right on all stated. I manage a car stereo and wheel shop and have installed and sold all brands imaginable just about to include sundown and I am a jl audio signature dealer. U r truly talking about apples and oranges comparing those two brands. Does sundown hit hard but not sound good to the trained professional ear? Yes. Does jl hit hard and sound phenomenal as far as sound quality? Yes. Two different animals. All that David stated is correct and I'm surprised he got as technical with his answers that he did because most will not understand his answers. Sundown like so many others is just cheap off the shelf assorted parts. U all could open a magazine and order a bunch of parts, assemble a sub and call it wake down. Simple as that. Not gonna be a true sounding sub to the purist or trained ear. By the way if any of u do that and call it that I want royalties.
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-26-2014, 7:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Is that true then of the sub's that run all the same materials but just have larger cones like the ones previously mentioned in this thread?
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking. But I'll give it a shot.
While it's not the only element, the most efficient way to obtain more output is with more surface area.
If different sizes of woofers are using common parts in the voice coil, motor and spider, then they are all pretty much limited to the same excursion which would be the second most important factor (along with more power) in creating more output. But the more critical issues with different sizes of woofers using common suspensions and motors is how it hurts the sound quality performance. When the loading resistance changes with greater surface area and the mass changes with larger cones and surrounds, yet the other parts remain the same, all those woofers certainly are not optimized. If one parameter changes then the other elements must also be changed to maintain the same balance in design.
While you cannot always trust the specs, with this approach you may see the 'Qtc' climb with each change in size. At one size extreme that woofer may behave like an air suspension woofer while at the other extreme that woofer behaves like an infinite baffle woofer. And I have just scratched the surface with the flaws in this approach.
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       02-26-2014, 7:50 PM Reply   
Here's my two cents. There is a reason the top gear is at the top. Same why the top boats are at the top. It's the extra attention to detail.

Where this goes all wrong is people who are the elitists and in the now always try to push that top product and claim everything is else is garbage. Every post David posts is filled with technical specs, truths in engineering , and a vast general knowledge. However because he has such a fine ear and an expert in the field he will never recommend anything else for other people's application. It's the same JL Wetsounds superiority speech in every post. Bashing everything else.

Not everyone needs or wants the elite gear, yet every post about recommending good quality bang for your buck audio gear goes this way. It goes back to the boat mantra as well. The high end stuff is top quality. You definitely get what you pay for in most cases. We all know this. However it could be argued that stuff is overbuilt for a majority of uses and people's needs who aren't looking to win pro level wakeboard or stereo comps. People want info in good quality bang for your buck stuff that will last. All of which other companies make. Some better than others. However tht is always overlooked with the constant elitist banter. While maybe not reaching the high end quality requirements or performance output required for te small minute pro level applications , it's still good quality decent sounding stuff that a majority of people can't /wouldn't be able to tell the difference between.

The banter and elitist mentality on here is out of control these days on here. Some people don't need or want the best. They just want a quality product that gets the job done and leaves couple extra bucks in their pocket

Last edited by xstarrider; 02-26-2014 at 7:53 PM.
Old     (buzzardmountainz)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-26-2014, 8:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xstarrider View Post
Here's my two cents. There is a reason the top gear is at the top. Same why the top boats are at the top. It's the extra attention to detail.

Where this goes all wrong is people who are the elitists and in the now always try to push that top product and claim everything is else is garbage. Every post David posts is filled with technical specs, truths in engineering , and a vast general knowledge. However because he has such a fine ear and an expert in the field he will never recommend anything else for other people's application. It's the same JL Wetsounds superiority speech in every post. Bashing everything else.

Not everyone needs or wants the elite gear, yet every post about recommending good quality bang for your buck audio gear goes this way. It goes back to the boat mantra as well. The high end stuff is top quality. You definitely get what you pay for in most cases. We all know this. However it could be argued that stuff is overbuilt for a majority of uses and people's needs who aren't looking to win pro level wakeboard or stereo comps. People want info in good quality bang for your buck stuff that will last. All of which other companies make. Some better than others. However tht is always overlooked with the constant elitist banter. While maybe not reaching the high end quality requirements or performance output required for te small minute pro level applications , it's still good quality decent sounding stuff that a majority of people can't /wouldn't be able to tell the difference between.

The banter and elitist mentality on here is out of control these days on here. Some people don't need or want the best. They just want a quality product that gets the job done and leaves couple extra bucks in their pocket
The OP asked for comparisons between Sundown and JL...???
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-27-2014, 3:31 AM Reply   
I've ran both in car and boat that is why I was giving my comparison. Just keep buying the overpriced JL Audio gear. The ONLY reason I ever ran JL in the first place was car audio shops pushed the hell out of it. Most car audio shops around here just carry the common JL , Kicker, RF, and Polk. Must be a big mark up.

To my un-professional trained ear the Sundown sounded just as good hit just as hard for 1/3 of the money.
Old    Brad Morring (BradM07SS)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-27-2014, 4:19 AM Reply   
So many variables in car and boat audio (ported,sealed,tuning of box, location ,cabin gain , correct volume of box , amp to supply at least rms of subwoofer, not sending a clipping signal to subwoofer etc..) it's very hard to compare one to another. I've had both in the same location in a ported box built to the spec of each sub.
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-27-2014, 6:04 AM Reply   
Brad,
Enjoy what you have and don't look back. I've seen your rear bench sub enclosure, which is really nice, btw.
With your four monsters 12"s tightly collected and compound loading with a ton of power in that ported enclosure at one end of the cockpit there is no doubt in my mind that your system absolutely, positively rocks.
As for the thread, don't take it personally. The OP wrote the challenge that he heard that the Sundown subs blow away a W7 and ask for feedback. All opinions were invited.
Old    Chris Dirty (Dmac420sj)      Join Date: Mar 2012       02-27-2014, 9:14 AM Reply   
^class act. Build my box!
Old    Ryan Bedford (annq42)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-27-2014, 12:09 PM Reply   
I have been running Sundown subs in my boats for years. The owner of Sundown is a great guy and I have known him for years. He has helped me every step of the way, with this. I use to have JL subs, and I will tell you, you know the difference after hearing them. The crisp, and the smooth sound from the Sundown sub is amazing. But even the owner warned me that this sub was not made for boats, but I shoulldnt have a problem if I treat it with care.
Old    Chris Dirty (Dmac420sj)      Join Date: Mar 2012       02-27-2014, 12:13 PM Reply   
Shelf parts unengineered great sq?
Old    Bryce Pool (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-27-2014, 6:09 PM Reply   
I just hooked up the XXXv2 to the SD2 in my truck. I have it in the ported enclosure wetsounds suggests. It didnt sound bad at all. I had it tuned around 70-80 hz, 3/4 gain, no boost and it had pretty good output. I didnt want to get to carried away with it til I get a voltmeter to set it with or my SMD distortion detector. I'd say it was almost as loud as my 13w7, so thats pretty damn good since the JL has more surface area. But it takes a huge box. I'll load it in the boat facing foward, direct radiating, and boundary loaded off the hull and report back this weekend.
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-27-2014, 6:41 PM Reply   
Bryce,
Based on a matching load, the WS XXX is a good fit with your WS SD2 amplifier. The JL 13W7 is not. The best amplifier for the JL 13W7 is the JL 1200/v3, not the HD1200/1, but definitely the Slash.
If you convert the dual port Wetsounds XXX box to a single port, with the same surface area and length as the collective dual ports, then you will have less internal wall mass for a slightly smaller enclosure. One larger port also offers less port wall drag resistance than two smaller ports and could possibly give you just a bit of an efficiency boost.
The Sundown X and Zv.4 (versus the Zv.3) have so much surround that it enfringes on the cone surface area which are really small for a 12-inch class of sub. They can certainly put on an excursion display, but bottom line in an open boat is you need the most surface area you can get. Output is going to be achieved more efficiently via surface area versus excursion. Brand won't matter.
Old    Bryce Pool (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-27-2014, 6:52 PM Reply   
David, thanks a lot for all the help and insight in this thread. Its much appreciated by almost everyone Im sure. I would definitely be interested in a single port, that way I can have a plexi front if I load it off the bow or hull. There also sounds like there may be port noise coming from the box, and I rounded all the walls and where the ports exit the box. The wetsounds enclosure is 1.44 ft^3, but the specs call for an optimum of 1.8 ft^3. Also the box is tuned to 36 hz, and optimum call for 41 hz. Im wondering if it would be beneficial if I have the room, to make a box that is 1.8 ft^3 at 41 hz?
Old    David (DavidAnalog)      Join Date: Sep 2013       02-27-2014, 7:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce2320 View Post
David, thanks a lot for all the help and insight in this thread. Its much appreciated by almost everyone Im sure. I would definitely be interested in a single port, that way I can have a plexi front if I load it off the bow or hull. There also sounds like there may be port noise coming from the box, and I rounded all the walls and where the ports exit the box. The wetsounds enclosure is 1.44 ft^3, but the specs call for an optimum of 1.8 ft^3. Also the box is tuned to 36 hz, and optimum call for 41 hz. Im wondering if it would be beneficial if I have the room, to make a box that is 1.8 ft^3 at 41 hz?
I like the sound better when tuned just above the 32 Hz Fs, like the 36 Hz, if that's the goal. It's max flat with good deep extension. Tuning it a little higher at 41 Hz does produce a bit more output in the more apparent region of bass, if that's the goal. Probably a good approach in an open boat.
Btw, stay away from any bass boost when using a bass-reflex, especially when not using a subsonic filter.
PM me when you are finished with the build and I'll give you a couple of tuning tips that will make a major difference.
Old    Bryce Pool (bryce2320)      Join Date: May 2012       02-27-2014, 7:26 PM Reply   
Awesome, thanks! Output is definitely the goal since Im running a single sub. I may go for 38hz or so. Whats a good box builder? I normally use REaudios box builder. I can calculate the internal net cubic ft, but port tuning is another story. Hopefully REaudios builder is pretty accurate.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       02-28-2014, 8:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidAnalog View Post
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking. But I'll give it a shot.
While it's not the only element, the most efficient way to obtain more output is with more surface area.
If different sizes of woofers are using common parts in the voice coil, motor and spider, then they are all pretty much limited to the same excursion which would be the second most important factor (along with more power) in creating more output. But the more critical issues with different sizes of woofers using common suspensions and motors is how it hurts the sound quality performance. When the loading resistance changes with greater surface area and the mass changes with larger cones and surrounds, yet the other parts remain the same, all those woofers certainly are not optimized. If one parameter changes then the other elements must also be changed to maintain the same balance in design.
While you cannot always trust the specs, with this approach you may see the 'Qtc' climb with each change in size. At one size extreme that woofer may behave like an air suspension woofer while at the other extreme that woofer behaves like an infinite baffle woofer. And I have just scratched the surface with the flaws in this approach.
Thanks David that's what I was asking.

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