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Old    MICAH HARPER (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-13-2014, 9:54 AM Reply   
with the cost of new boats getting crazy.....do you guys ever think the industry will price its self out of business? Or maybe just become an esclusive sport for rich folks.....lol

just wondering.....now lets keep it nice
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       01-13-2014, 9:58 AM Reply   
I kind of wonder that. But I think the pricing will work itself out. What I mean is that if not enough new boats sell then prices will be brought down my mfgr's. And the first year depreciation's are huge. So used boat prices well higher then past, will be much lower then new boat prices.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2014, 9:59 AM Reply   
I think they already have and that's why Axis and MB's have been selling so well but even they are getting out of control at $85k for an A24 and high 70's for a Tomcat.
Old    David (detonate69)      Join Date: Apr 2001       01-13-2014, 10:01 AM Reply   
A budget new wake boat is $60k. I think they've already priced out more then %90 of America.

But the sport won't become exclusive to rich folks as you say. Because my 99 Mastercraft can get me wakeboarding just fine for less then $20k.

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Old    Bryan James (bjames)      Join Date: May 2012       01-13-2014, 10:16 AM Reply   
Perhaps the drastic increase in boat cost may be attributed to the higher level of technology applied to all the newer boats. It seams like in the last 3 years large touch screens and full automation have now become a benchmark for all mfgs to meet in order to remain competitive. Unfortanatly this technology is very expensive to develope. I wonder at what point the bubble will burst.
Old    Zack Bale (Fourspeednup)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-13-2014, 10:38 AM Reply   
I had a long reply typed out referencing economics, financing, debt, capital investment, etc but deleted it lol. It can all pretty much be summed up into:

Supply and demand
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2014, 10:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourspeednup View Post
I had a long reply typed out referencing economics, financing, debt, capital investment, etc but deleted it lol. It can all pretty much be summed up into:

Supply and demand
Pretty much. Just interesting that the demand is down 50% from what it was in 2006/7. So if demand went up, the prices would go up even more?
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       01-13-2014, 10:50 AM Reply   
Supply and demand and the people ( not me and my peeps) that have to have the latest and greatest. I was at the ATL boat show this past weekend and there were several "leftover boats" in the SMG area ( malibus) that were brand new but one year old selling for 25 grand off. I wish i had been paying attention to the model but did any major malibu advancements come out this year? Im pretty sure it was a 23lsv for 79 and the original price was 104. I can see like a 2014 axis over a 2013 because of surf gate, but just to have a new boat pay an extrta 25 grand.........not this guy seems crazy to me.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2014, 10:57 AM Reply   
There is a brand new design on the LSV for '14 so that makes sense on that particular boat.
Old    Bill Amaral (soonerbilly)      Join Date: Jul 2013       01-13-2014, 11:01 AM Reply   
I didnt pay that much attention.....never really liked the looks of malibu styling wise. Once inside theyre really nice...but to look at them not my favorite.
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-13-2014, 11:03 AM Reply   
As has been said many times before, boats are a much smaller market than say cars or bikes. Boats, RVs, big ticket luxury items need that higher mark up has those industries do not have the sheer volume to sustain big profits. Where you may offer 500 over invoice on a car and get it, very unlikely on a boat. I worked in a car dealership back in college and we would move150-200 cars a month. For twelve months. Finance through the dealer and they get a piece of that too to make up some of the smaller margins on a new car. There's not a boat dealer out there doing those numbers. Margins need to be higher.


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Old    Mark (FunkyBunch)      Join Date: Jun 2011       01-13-2014, 11:04 AM Reply   
IMO I think when interest rates go up that will be the deciding factor on how well the industry does going forward. While there are a bunch of people that seem to pay cash for there boats a lot don't. So it will be interesting what happens when you can't get a loan for a boat at 4-5% if those 90k boats still sell.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-13-2014, 11:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
I think they already have and that's why Axis and MB's have been selling so well but even they are getting out of control at $85k for an A24 and high 70's for a Tomcat.

The 84k a24 in the boat show thread has a salt series ls3, tricked gel, tricked trailer, sound pack 3, etc... A moderately equipped A24 should sell in the mid-70s. For a 24 foot boat with a surf system, that is extremely reasonable. What other 24 footers are out there at that price point?

Last edited by boardjnky4; 01-13-2014 at 11:12 AM.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       01-13-2014, 11:16 AM Reply   
I looked at a decently equipped a24 with surfgate in Las Vegas over thanksgiving and it was 66k. That was with the 5.7l motor. I was told the full salt series LS3 upgrade would be another $10k.
Old    156452 (WLF)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-13-2014, 11:26 AM Reply   
I tend to agree with you that it is getting out of control. It is sort of like an arms race...or the horsepower wars going on with cars right now. I'm in the automotive, and it amazes me that cars too keep getting more and more expensive with more features that use to be options that now you can't live without. Who is buying all of these $50k cars...I'm not sure, but I hope the music doesn't stop anytime soon!
Old    Zack Bale (Fourspeednup)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-13-2014, 11:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
Pretty much. Just interesting that the demand is down 50% from what it was in 2006/7. So if demand went up, the prices would go up even more?
Yes, so long as customers are able to get financed at those higher prices. I suspect that will be the determining factor at some point.

In a niche luxury market like wake boats the manufacturer can afford to build fewer boats at higher margin. An example in the automotive world would be Land Rover. Their dealers have protected territories and are allotted X amount of vehicles per year yet buyers remain lined up as they cater to a certain clientele that is willing to pay a higher price for the brand.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       01-13-2014, 12:04 PM Reply   
I agree with most have said above. The market has already priced many out. Number of units is way down. But as long as the boats are selling the prices will continue to increase or at the least hold. I personally don't think they can go up much more. Maybe just the 1-2% inflation numbers. I also agree with the cheap financing artificially helping it along. I know the WW elite pay cash for 100K boats, but most people finance them. If the cheap finance money goes away the sales are going to get tougher. I just don't know what banker in his right mind thinks giving someone(even if they can afford it) a $1500/ month boat payment makes sense. If anything happens in that persons life that boat is gone. Now if you have a reasonable payment say 3-600/ month then maybe you can keep the boat thru the job loss, divorce, unexpected child, etc.

Plus the MSRP numbers are crazy. Bring them down and sell for MSRP instead of inflating them and then selling for 20% off. Thats why boats depreciate so much the first year. If you look at depreciation off actual sales price it isn't to bad. It just looks horrible to the guy who paid MSRP or only 5% off and now used they are selling 30% off MSRP after a year. Because you failed to do your homework is why you think you lost 30% the first year. If you buy for 20-25% off MSRP I know your not taking a big hit the first year, heck you might be able to sell it for what you have in it!!
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-13-2014, 12:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardman74 View Post
I agree with most have said above. The market has already priced many out. Number of units is way down. But as long as the boats are selling the prices will continue to increase or at the least hold. I personally don't think they can go up much more. Maybe just the 1-2% inflation numbers. I also agree with the cheap financing artificially helping it along. I know the WW elite pay cash for 100K boats, but most people finance them. If the cheap finance money goes away the sales are going to get tougher. I just don't know what banker in his right mind thinks giving someone(even if they can afford it) a $1500/ month boat payment makes sense. If anything happens in that persons life that boat is gone. Now if you have a reasonable payment say 3-600/ month then maybe you can keep the boat thru the job loss, divorce, unexpected child, etc.

Plus the MSRP numbers are crazy. Bring them down and sell for MSRP instead of inflating them and then selling for 20% off. Thats why boats depreciate so much the first year. If you look at depreciation off actual sales price it isn't to bad. It just looks horrible to the guy who paid MSRP or only 5% off and now used they are selling 30% off MSRP after a year. Because you failed to do your homework is why you think you lost 30% the first year. If you buy for 20-25% off MSRP I know your not taking a big hit the first year, heck you might be able to sell it for what you have in it!!
! doubt any banks loan out many $1500 a month boat payments. That's why the terms are so long on those loans, it keeps the payments lower.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       01-13-2014, 1:07 PM Reply   
Was just a guy last night that posted thats what his was is why I choose that number. Another said his was $880 on his new Axis. There are more people than you think with payments like that. How do you think people are buying 125K G's and Xstars? Most aren't writing checks or paying cash like most on here claim they are doing. Even though I think we could swing it(less to savings) I just could never justify it in my mind. I built a new fish house this year and have about $5K into it and we have been super busy and have on;y used it 2 weekends. I feel like I'm not getting my money out of that. Couldn't imagine paying 1000+ a month for the 6 months we can't use our boat.
Old    Ryan (ryanw209)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-13-2014, 1:19 PM Reply   
I wonder if dealerships will start doing some kind of leasing options. If it works with cars I'm not really sure why they couldn't make it work with boats?


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Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-13-2014, 1:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardman74 View Post
Was just a guy last night that posted thats what his was is why I choose that number. Another said his was $880 on his new Axis. There are more people than you think with payments like that. How do you think people are buying 125K G's and Xstars? Most aren't writing checks or paying cash like most on here claim they are doing. Even though I think we could swing it(less to savings) I just could never justify it in my mind. I built a new fish house this year and have about $5K into it and we have been super busy and have on;y used it 2 weekends. I feel like I'm not getting my money out of that. Couldn't imagine paying 1000+ a month for the 6 months we can't use our boat.
Man those have to either be shorter terms or are bad rates. The reason people can get 125G's and stars is partly due to the length of the terms, the interest rates, but those people also make good money. You're not going to be able to get a loan on a G and make 50k a year.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-13-2014, 1:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
! doubt any banks loan out many $1500 a month boat payments. That's why the terms are so long on those loans, it keeps the payments lower.
Maybe not many on wake boats but i bet plenty on Offshore power boats and yachts. If you have a 850 credit score and enough cash in the bank to cover the loan Why wouldn't they?
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-13-2014, 1:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Maybe not many on wake boats but i bet plenty on Offshore power boats and yachts. If you have a 850 credit score and enough cash in the bank to cover the loan Why wouldn't they?
850 credit scores are rare indeed and usually only people who have very long credit histories have them, hence why you'd see them more in yachts and power boats, but not the wakeboard world
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-13-2014, 1:55 PM Reply   
They won't price themselves out of business, if sales drop too much they will lower prices. I'd be curious to know what the profit on a new wake boat is, but I'm sure it's huge and there's room to lower prices to sell more boats and still be profitable. With prices so high it indicates the most money to be made is with fewer luxury boats targeted for the rich and surely a large margin as opposed to many basic boats with a lower margin. The used boat market takes care of that I'd imagine, whether it's a 3 year old boat or a 10+ year old boat. So they'd be competing their brand new budget boat with the same model boat from 5 yrs ago. Inboard towboats are a small market compared to overall boat sales.

Look at the flip side of it though. What happened to Standard Boats? Seriously, anyone know the story because I don't? Website is dead and haven't heard anything about them in a long time so I assume company went under. They made a simple DD boat comparable to a SN2001 and may have even been a SN2001 mold, but modernized a bit so far as styling and interior, EFI Mercruiser SBC with speed control. Priced around or under $30k IIRC. So they made the absolute cheapest brand new with warranty and modern whatever towboat on the market and priced it around what a new car costs. I guess it didn't sell very well since they seem to have disappeared. They were selling essentially a brand new SN2001 for $25k-$30k. Well you can buy a really nice SN2001 for around $10k (often with stringers already done), or buy a rotted out one for a couple grand restore it, and have a brand new (and improved) SN2001 for well under half the price of the new equivalent from Standard. They were also competing against much newer (used) larger vdrives with an open bow that sell used in the $25k-$30k range.

It looks like they fell between the big parts of the market. Older folks with a family and $30k to spend on a boat probably want the luxury features and more storage, open bow, etc... Those who are looking at a simple smaller boat and just need room for a couple friends and a bunch of sacks will typically have a much lower budget, maybe $10k or less, and the market is already saturated with old cheap ski boats that'll fit a couple friends and some sacks. Or maybe they're still around and making boats, I'm just guessing because I don't see anything turn up in a google search. I remember thinking when I first heard of Standard, "Cool idea, but who's gonna pay $30k for a SN2001?" ... I certainly wouldn't. Price too high for those looking at that type of boat and too little boat for those with that kind of money.

Aside from that, it's not just a rich man's sport and never will be. I'm not rich, I have a 25 year old boat, decent gear and have tons of fun. It takes three to ride, and not all my my usual crew have boats. You can see the full spectrum on WW... Ranging from people dropping $100k+ cash on a new boat to people with no boat looking for a pull.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2014, 1:59 PM Reply   
I heard that Epic started making center console fishing boats and they sell more of those than their wakeboard boats. I think their CC's are competitively priced and they are selling a ton of them.
Old    156452 (WLF)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-13-2014, 2:03 PM Reply   
They would loan you the money with an 850 credit score and the cash to back up the loan...the only catch is you would have to sign a personal guarantee against the asset you are securing the loan against.

I don't think leasing will ever really work because boats are all custom ordered and very unique with colors and options, plus the depreciation curve just kills it.

The way I look at it, the boat is going to depreciate 10% per year...use the hell out of it to make sure you get your money's worth. (which is tough for those of us who live up north)
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-13-2014, 2:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by WLF View Post
They would loan you the money with an 850 credit score and the cash to back up the loan...the only catch is you would have to sign a personal guarantee against the asset you are securing the loan against.

I don't think leasing will ever really work because boats are all custom ordered and very unique with colors and options, plus the depreciation curve just kills it.

The way I look at it, the boat is going to depreciate 10% per year...use the hell out of it to make sure you get your money's worth. (which is tough for those of us who live up north)
The positive of the higher new market is that it keeps the used market high also. I just sold my VTX for slightly less than i bought it for 4 years ago. If I had the time I could have gotten more than I paid for it.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       01-13-2014, 2:26 PM Reply   
Leasing it to expensive for it to be effective in boats. I know a dealer that leases a couple boats a year to schools. I thought about doing it as we get a new boat every year anyway and then i wouldn't have to sell it and carry financing for the time we have it. When I asked about payments they were well over a $1000 a month and over 3 times what my loan payment was. That was on about a 45-50K boat. Boats take way more damage than cars and based on the increased cost the depreciation is more, even if the % is the same as a car. I really doubt you will ever see a lease option. Most dealers will work out something for you if you ask, but you might be surprised of the payments. Most schools rent/ lease their boats.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-13-2014, 2:29 PM Reply   
"Overpricing" is a relative term. Although most boats produced by our industry my be "overpriced" for you or any particular buyer because they don't have enough money to buy them, that doesn't not necessarily mean that they are "overpriced" for the general marketplace. This is not a judgment that can be made by looking at the number on the price tag. If a company is selling every single boat its factory is able to produce in a given year, the only argument you can make is that they are underpriced. You certainly couldn't say that they are overpriced unless the factory is not at full capacity or they've got boats sitting around (either at the factory or the dealers) that aren't selling.

Last edited by wakeworld; 01-13-2014 at 2:37 PM.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2014, 2:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeworld View Post
If a company is selling every single boat its factory is able to produce in a given year, the only argument you can make is that they are underpriced. You certainly couldn't say that they are overpriced unless the factory is not at full capacity or they've got boats sitting around (either at the factory or the dealers) that aren't selling.
Some of the mfr's only build boats that are already sold, they aren't like the auto industry who builds thousands of inventory items hoping that they will be sold. Based on past sales data, it doesn't look like they are at full capacity.
Old    Clayton Gilliland (cgilliland)      Join Date: Dec 2013       01-13-2014, 3:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourspeednup View Post
I had a long reply typed out referencing economics, financing, debt, capital investment, etc but deleted it lol. It can all pretty much be summed up into:

Supply and demand
yep

and sorry guys I depleted the supply by 1 this year oopsie

but I DONT have to have the latest and greatest, last was a 2003 bought nearly new
Old    Clayton Gilliland (cgilliland)      Join Date: Dec 2013       01-13-2014, 3:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
The 84k a24 in the boat show thread has a salt series ls3, tricked gel, tricked trailer, sound pack 3, etc... A moderately equipped A24 should sell in the mid-70s. For a 24 foot boat with a surf system, that is extremely reasonable. What other 24 footers are out there at that price point?
exactly! that's a lot of boat!
Old    Sander (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       01-13-2014, 9:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post

Look at the flip side of it though. What happened to Standard Boats? Seriously, anyone know the story because I don't?
I think they built 3 boats. Too bad they didn't make it. I think if they had offered a V-drive for that price it could have been huge. Also, back then an A22 was what, 40K, when it just came out? Now the cheapest boat at a show is 57k.
Opportunity right there, if you ask me!
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-14-2014, 2:40 AM Reply   
If you've shopped for used you see most boats will have 200,300,400,maybe 500 hours. Then think about how much they paid new and get a per hour cost ...if they knew that number the orig buyer would probably puke.
Old    156452 (WLF)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-14-2014, 3:55 AM Reply   
I actually did that calculation! Before I should my last boat I wondered what that number shook out to...for me it was roughly $60/engine hour...but that doesn't take into effect, floating/sandbar hang out time which I would say would easily be triple the amount of time.

The moral of the story I figured out is it was the best possible use of my $ I could have made. Damn if that boat could talk...besides I always wonder what the heck everybody else is doing on those 85 and sunny weekends?

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