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Old    TimelineX (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       12-27-2016, 10:56 AM Reply   
My wife has been trying to get w2w down for ages now. I don't know what to tell her anymore, advice wise. The worst part about it is that she has always had bad knees and casing the wake over and over again is killing her.

Overall, I know there is alot shes not doing perfect. Her cut can be more progressive and she could pop her knees more straight at the wake. I've told her this 1000x but it doesnt help. She feels like she is trying to pop at the wake and that she is trying to cut hardest at the wake. In fact, on some jumps she pops harder but then cut is worse, other jumps she cuts alot better butthen her leg extension suffers. What bothers me the most though is I dont know how she isn't making it w2w at this point. No matter what we try, she is always inches away. I mess up on wake jumps all the time (not a great cut or did time the pop right). This usually just leads to ****ty height but I always make it atleast w2w. So I know her jumps aren't perfect, but it seems like it should be enough for the w2w and its just not!

We were riding at 21.4mph and 65 ft for a while but recently just brought it in to 60ft and 19.2mph. It's made for a more pleasant time riding with less traumatic falls. I've tried bumping the speed for her a little and it does nothing. She is still inches away. I'm guessing her cut just gets a little less strong. I can't shorten the rope any more because any shorter and it gets really close to the middle boat spray which scares her. But regardless of speed, she lands in the same spot!

At the current time we are dedicated enough to go through the winter in dry suits. I know how lucky we are that we are both happy to do that. But I know it is not fun to not progress at all for months. She has been practicing other things in the mean time, but I'm afraid if she doesn't start getting it soon, any day now she will just throw in the towel.

Here is a video of last time we were out.Each jump is a little different, but in each one she lands in almost the exact same spot, killing her knees!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeC4...ature=youtu.be

Any advice would be appreciated!
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       12-27-2016, 11:10 AM Reply   
The rope lengths you're using aren't really conducive to a newbie. I would put her in 5 feet, at either rope length.

For me, her form is OK for someone who is barely making it. She'll get better over time, but you need to get her over the hump. Just keep bringing the rope in until she clears it. She needs a confidence boost before she's gonna start pushing off harder.
Old    David (99Bison)      Join Date: Sep 2012       12-27-2016, 11:32 AM Reply   
Another "trick" is to get the body and mind knowing what it looks and feels like going down the wake on the landing.

So a little Ollie inside out. Doesn't even have to leave the water, just go over the wake from the inside hard enough to lose the edge - so it has to be landed and caught on the downside.

Of course reentry Ollie would also work, but probably not comfortable doing that.
Old    Bryce Stevens (SS_Hooke102)      Join Date: Sep 2011       12-27-2016, 12:04 PM Reply   
She has pretty good form. Looks like consistently she is letting the rope pull her at the shoulders. What I mean by that is that she is folding in half at the waist and that is why she cannot generate the line tension she requires to get more pop and carry across. She should sit like she is in a chair with her back straight. Her hips should be making almost a 90 degree angle with her back. Also tell her to bring the handle closer to her stomach. Arms in, chest up. Will help a lot. Congrats on finding someone who will shred with you in the winter! You are an extremely lucky dude! 😝
Old    TimelineX (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       12-27-2016, 1:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
The rope lengths you're using aren't really conducive to a newbie. I would put her in 5 feet, at either rope length.

For me, her form is OK for someone who is barely making it. She'll get better over time, but you need to get her over the hump. Just keep bringing the rope in until she clears it. She needs a confidence boost before she's gonna start pushing off harder.
Well, I can't put her in another 5 ft. I barely convinced her on the 60ft length. She hates the added line tension sensitivity and it also puts her alot closer to the boat spray. I definitely won't be able to convince her on it haha.. So what your saying is to kick up the speed then from 19.2mph to mid 20s at 60ft? I tried adding .4mph or so, but never 1mph+.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99Bison View Post
Another "trick" is to get the body and mind knowing what it looks and feels like going down the wake on the landing.

So a little Ollie inside out. Doesn't even have to leave the water, just go over the wake from the inside hard enough to lose the edge - so it has to be landed and caught on the downside.

Of course reentry Ollie would also work, but probably not comfortable doing that.
The last 2 times we have gone out she has actually been been practicing the inside out ollie. I was hoping it would help her get better at doing the progressive edge and standing tall. I really like how an inside out jump either gives you barely any air or has you jumping almost into the flats if you do everything right. Instant feedback on your technique, but relatively minimal wear and tear that a w2w puts on you. She was slowly getting better at them.

She's also done a bunch of re entry ollies.

She really has been practicing alot of other things (180's, slowly doing TS jumps and also riding switch) So the good part is hopefully once she conquers the w2w, it will all come together and her progress will shoot up pretty fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS_Hooke102 View Post
She has pretty good form. Looks like consistently she is letting the rope pull her at the shoulders. What I mean by that is that she is folding in half at the waist and that is why she cannot generate the line tension she requires to get more pop and carry across. She should sit like she is in a chair with her back straight. Her hips should be making almost a 90 degree angle with her back. Also tell her to bring the handle closer to her stomach. Arms in, chest up. Will help a lot. Congrats on finding someone who will shred with you in the winter! You are an extremely lucky dude! 😝
I noticed this last time as well. She used to absorb the wake with ther legs, but recently she has mostly fixed that and just isn't 100% straightening which is OK for just making it w2w. Then I realized whatever she gained by straightening her legs, she lost by instead starting to bend at the waist. I told her to bring her hips to the handle during the jump, but it didn't help much. I think at this point she probably already feels overwhelmed by all the little things she has to keep in mind. When she tried doing it, her cut became weaker. It's almost like she just does whatever it takes to make sure she doesn't clear the wake!

Thanks for all the advice guys. I will have her read this thread. Hopefully between the speed change will give her the extra boost to make it and that will give her the confidence to really work on the shoulder/waist thing you mentioned and the other things like better leg popping.
Old     (WheelerWake)      Join Date: Mar 2013       12-27-2016, 5:49 PM Reply   
What I have found that makes the biggest improvement in going w2w is the progressive cut. You start out cutting in slowly and increase the closer you get, when you are going up the wake you are cutting the hardest (loading the rope the hardest). She looks like she isn't gaining anymore speed during the second half of the cut.

I applaud her enthusiasm.

That smooth water sure looks nice.
Old    Ryan Shimabukuro (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-27-2016, 7:37 PM Reply   
It's really hard to tell since the video isn't zoomed in enough. Also, how do you have the boat weighted for her?

But here are a couple of things to look at from my point of view.

1. Her timing. She seems to extend her knees too early, before she rises up the wake. This will limit her pop. Try having her wait longer, until she's 3/4 up the wake before extending upwards. It looks like she starts to extend right at the bottom of the wake, like she's hitting a curb. With that said, have her make a greater effort to ride the board up the wake, not through it.

2. Keep the handle lower, because the handle looks chest high which would be a hard position to load the line. Loading the line will give you the distance needed to cross the wake. Combine that with the proper timing of her knees extending, she'll clear the wake solidly. Legs give you height, line tension gives your distance.

I know most, if not all, will disagree with me and I'll probably get slammed for it but I think lengthening out the line could actually help. It worked for my wife, and this is my reason why I had my wife put her rope out to 70ft. First, she had a hard time actually taking a progressive edge to the wake because when the rope is short, by the time she starts to turn into the wake on her approach, she's already used up at least half the distance to the wake, which made it very hard for her to take the board to edge and load the line. Combine this with being tiny and not having the physical strength to edge out far enough away from the boat to give her the distance to take her board to edge, lengthening the rope made it easier for her to give her the necessary time to accomplish this.

To be clear though, she rides all the boats in our crews fully loaded (from 2500-3500lbs of ballast depending on the boat, not including people). She took her lumps a couple of times, but shook it off, got up and finally cleared the wake cleanly. She's never gone back since. She also rides at 23.5mph at that length, and doesn't change the length or speed, no matter what boat we ride behind because now she can just adjust her approach depending on the boat.

However, if your wife isn't confident about riding longer and faster, that's totally cool. I just used this approach with my wife as a tool which worked for her. Doesn't work for everyone. Just continue to have her work on the basic fundamentals if she's not down with riding longer at a slightly faster speed.

BTW, I gave some input on your tantrum post as well. It would help if the video camera was centered on the boat instead of the side of the tower.

Good luck!

Last edited by ryan_shima1; 12-27-2016 at 7:41 PM. Reason: spelling
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       12-27-2016, 8:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Well, I can't put her in another 5 ft. I barely convinced her on the 60ft length. She hates the added line tension sensitivity and it also puts her alot closer to the boat spray. I definitely won't be able to convince her on it haha.. So what your saying is to kick up the speed then from 19.2mph to mid 20s at 60ft? I tried adding .4mph or so, but never 1mph+.







The last 2 times we have gone out she has actually been been practicing the inside out ollie. I was hoping it would help her get better at doing the progressive edge and standing tall. I really like how an inside out jump either gives you barely any air or has you jumping almost into the flats if you do everything right. Instant feedback on your technique, but relatively minimal wear and tear that a w2w puts on you. She was slowly getting better at them.



She's also done a bunch of re entry ollies.



She really has been practicing alot of other things (180's, slowly doing TS jumps and also riding switch) So the good part is hopefully once she conquers the w2w, it will all come together and her progress will shoot up pretty fast.







I noticed this last time as well. She used to absorb the wake with ther legs, but recently she has mostly fixed that and just isn't 100% straightening which is OK for just making it w2w. Then I realized whatever she gained by straightening her legs, she lost by instead starting to bend at the waist. I told her to bring her hips to the handle during the jump, but it didn't help much. I think at this point she probably already feels overwhelmed by all the little things she has to keep in mind. When she tried doing it, her cut became weaker. It's almost like she just does whatever it takes to make sure she doesn't clear the wake!



Thanks for all the advice guys. I will have her read this thread. Hopefully between the speed change will give her the extra boost to make it and that will give her the confidence to really work on the shoulder/waist thing you mentioned and the other things like better leg popping.


Go 60@21mph. Guaranteed she gets it immediately
Old    Sander (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       12-27-2016, 9:32 PM Reply   
Lots of good advice already. What I think might also help is if she'd edge out, away from the wake, a bit harder and more aggressive instead of long and slow. And not keep leaning out, but really just coast and then start the progressive edge.
Something else that I often see is when people start to do (1 wake) toeside jumps, their HS jumps benefit a lot from it.
Simply speeding up will also do the trick. Crashes will hurt more though, not sure if that will have the desired effect. Instead of speeding up you can also just drive a dumper. Until she went w2w a few times, then she'll probably be able to do it on her own.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-28-2016, 7:30 AM Reply   
Seeing as how she is making it with in inches, how about telling her to use the handle to pull herself the few extra inches. Instead of just jumping and hoping the speed will carry her the distance, she should use her arms to pull herself to clear the wake.
Old    Adam Hobgood (80AM)      Join Date: Apr 2016       12-28-2016, 1:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Well, She hates the added line tension sensitivity
Like others have said 60ft at 21-22mph and the wake will be narrow enough for her to clear, but I'm confused by what you meant by the above statement. The increased loading of the line with a better edge/harder cut/etc by definition increases the line tensions as she's cutting in. That's just something she'll need to get used to in order to start jumping the wake and going higher/out into the flats. More line tensions equals better pop.

Try to get her to work on the Standing Tall Drill, it should help her get more comfortable with more a line tension and she doesn't have to worry about hitting the wake.

http://www.learnwake.com/hs-jumps-st...ing-tall-drill
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       12-28-2016, 2:06 PM Reply   
Get her some lessons from one of the wakeboarding schools or coaches. She's ready for lessons from someone other than her worse half...you. There is a dynamic that plays out between couples trying to teach each other...she will act and respond much differently with a paid coach lesson. She will rise to the occasion. She has the skills.
Old    Doctor Octagon (dococ)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-28-2016, 5:24 PM Reply   
Wow, that is EXACTLY what my wife looks like while riding, and she struggled with this same issue for a long while. We spent plenty of time working on it, so I'll offer some suggestions. I didn't read all the posts above, but there is some correct info, so I will blend it in and try to synthesize.

The main problem, as somebody said, is she is getting pulled out at the shoulders, or in other words her handle position is poor. This reduces height air time. If you can fix that, she will have it. More on that in a minute. I don't think I'm the smartest wakeboard coach in this forum, but I know this problem immediately because our wives styles and are virtually identical and my wife had the identical problem until we fixed it.

But unfortunately your wife has now been doing this so many times it is starting to cause secondary problems. First, as bftskr wrote, you now are in an unfortunate position of limited ability for her to respond to your instruction. Trust me on this, I'm a PhD psychologist and nonetheless I had the same problem with my wife where somebody else needed to be the teacher. We did a clinic many years ago with Dean Lavelle and in a matter of minutes he had the problem fixed and had her clearing the wake easily and getting twice the air. The second problem is that mentally she is not imagining herself clearing it. After so many failures, she now expects to case the wake, she is looking at the wake, her attention is focused on the wake, so she cases the wake. Ideally she needs to be looking beyond the wake and imagining herself clearing it, but at this point it is easier said than done because her head is working against her. And not to get too psycho-babble, but through Pavlovian classical conditioning, one could argue that your instruction now is associated with casing the wake (in her subconscious). Don't feel bad, it's really got nothing to do with you.

I would buy her a single lesson with a good instructor, and I'm betting that person will fix the problem easily. Basically exactly what bftskr wrote. If you could pull a $100 bill out of your pocket and drop it in the water to fix the problem so your wife can live happily ever after going wake to wake, would you do it? If yes, then hire a good teacher to come out and take a set with you and help your wife correct it. You win. You will get laid that night.

If you feel you have no choice but to do it yourself, I'll tell you the trick Dean used with my wife was make her SQUEEZE the handle and pull it in toward her as she begins to go airborne. Make sure she keeps the handle position low, as somebody said. She should be squeezing and pulling it in below her belly button. Pulling the handle in will give her plenty of extra force to clear the wake. Right now she is generating good force with her cut (+1), good force with her legs (+1), but then she loses force by letting the handle get pulled out (-1). So your sum is +1, and it's not enough. Fix that handle problem and your sum becomes +3, which will be plenty. Then she needs to get over the mental block, which she will do only with continued success. Mentally, it might be helpful for her to think of herself pulling herself up and over the wake by using the power of the handle squeeze.

It was nearly 20 years ago we did that clinic with Dean. Even now, my wife very often forgets and starts letting the handle out. She actually lets the handle out subconsciously out of anxiety about catching "too much" air and crashing, but this is backwards thinking. Letting the handle out has the effect of scrubbing height off her jump, and then she cases the wake, then she crashes. If she can be reminded to "trust" and squeeze that handle in to her hip area as she is beginning to gain altitude, then the handle squeeze and pull gives her that extra bump of altitude needed so she does a nice floaty jump and lands pillow soft, happy and with boosted confidence. Then the anxiety drops, she begins to feel it and stops letting the handle get pulled out, and the trajectory is positive.
Good luck with it all!
Old    Doctor Octagon (dococ)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-28-2016, 5:31 PM Reply   
OK, my bad for not reading. I think I just said the exact same thing as John, but of course he did it eloquently with few words, whereas I managed to write a novel.
Just make sure she is pulling in and down, bringing the handle down to her hips. Pulling it into her chest will not be helpful. Pulling in and down also has the added benefit of lowering her center of gravity so landings will be more stable.

Last edited by dococ; 12-28-2016 at 5:34 PM.
Old    John (johndk)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-18-2017, 9:41 PM Reply   
It might also be helpful for her to do some practice with starting her approach much closer to the wake, and only go for height. Just try to pop as high as she can, landing inside the wake - but since she's taking a short approach, she won't case the wake really hard. It can be scary going for height when you're also charging at the wake. She'll probably end up almost clearing the wake even with the short approach, which should improve her confidence - then just try with a slightly wider approach distance and the same pop.
Old    TimelineX (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       01-20-2017, 9:30 AM Reply   
Thank you for all the advice guys. We really appreciate it.

She wasn't too much of a fan of high speed (scary), but when we went out yesterday, I bumped up her speed "incognito" to 21mph and she was going w2w every time. Afterwards I told her and she figured I did and she was a happy camper going w2w. No complaints about knee pain!

Hopefully now that she is clearing the wakes, she can start applying alot of the other golden advice you guys have given. Then we will start lowering the speed slowly (or extending the rope).

Thanks everyone
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       01-20-2017, 10:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Thank you for all the advice guys. We really appreciate it.

She wasn't too much of a fan of high speed (scary), but when we went out yesterday, I bumped up her speed "incognito" to 21mph and she was going w2w every time. Afterwards I told her and she figured I did and she was a happy camper going w2w. No complaints about knee pain!

Hopefully now that she is clearing the wakes, she can start applying alot of the other golden advice you guys have given. Then we will start lowering the speed slowly (or extending the rope).

Thanks everyone
right on! I'm stoked for her! It's such a great feeling and I love when people finally get there.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-20-2017, 4:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Thank you for all the advice guys. We really appreciate it.

She wasn't too much of a fan of high speed (scary), but when we went out yesterday, I bumped up her speed "incognito" to 21mph and she was going w2w every time. Afterwards I told her and she figured I did and she was a happy camper going w2w. No complaints about knee pain!
Congrats. There is a guy on my lake that has trouble with the w2w. When I pull him I do the same thing... i.e. bump the speed up to get him to clear the wake. He seems happy about clearing the wake, but then I'll see him later out on the lake with a longer rope going slower and struggling.
Old    Doctor Octagon (dococ)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-20-2017, 6:29 PM Reply   
Old     (Orange)      Join Date: Jun 2012       01-23-2017, 11:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Thank you for all the advice guys. We really appreciate it.

She wasn't too much of a fan of high speed (scary), but when we went out yesterday, I bumped up her speed "incognito" to 21mph and she was going w2w every time. Afterwards I told her and she figured I did and she was a happy camper going w2w. No complaints about knee pain!

Hopefully now that she is clearing the wakes, she can start applying alot of the other golden advice you guys have given. Then we will start lowering the speed slowly (or extending the rope).

Thanks everyone
Have her start focusing on setting a stronger edge. If she can get her pop up a little, you could safely drop the speed to at least 20, maybe 19. The lower speed you go, the less brutal the crashes will be. Female athletes for whatever reason have a higher incidence of ACL tears than males, so you'll want to be even more careful with her riding than your own.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       01-24-2017, 9:29 AM Reply   
Bumping someone's speed up without them knowing puts the driver in a situation...If the person crashes and is injured... It's your fault. Personally if a driver decides I need more speed I'm likely to not let them drive for me.

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