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Old     (jwweathers)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-08-2013, 3:06 PM Reply   
I know this can be a touchy subject for some folks, but I am curious about how the F21 wake size and shape compares to that of the SAN 210 or 230, assuming an approximately equal amount of well-placed ballast. No need to dog one brand or the other, I'm just interested in hearing opinions from those who have wakeboarded behind both (not interested in comparing surf waves).

Thanks,

Jeff
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       09-09-2013, 8:57 AM Reply   
jw,

Your topic has been beat to death here, you will probably need to use the search function of these boards and do your own research that way. Good luck with your purchase.
Old    Ryan (ryanw209)      Join Date: Jan 2010       09-09-2013, 3:27 PM Reply   
The group of riders I usually ride with have a 2012 MB 21 TWB, a 2013 21 TC and a 2008 210. Both are good wakes but the 210 can be touchy side to side sometimes, as in the wake is noticeably a different shape from port to starboard and also not as much of a kick off the top. That's about my only complaint on the 210's. the MB's however are fantastic IMO. Great transitions with a great kick at the top and personally my favorite wake second to a G23. The 1800lbs of stock quick fill ballast sure beats floating for 10 minutes as pumps fill up sacs. I cannot comment on the 230 since I have no experience behind them.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       09-09-2013, 3:55 PM Reply   
go ride behind one, sure someone on here can hook you up with a pull, seeing is believing
Old     (jwweathers)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-09-2013, 5:02 PM Reply   
Thanks for the info Ryan. I own an F21 and love it. I know that the SAN wakes have been the standard for a while, but I have yet to ride behind one (hence, my thread). I was just curious about how the F21 wake measures up. Thanks again.

Jeff
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-09-2013, 5:04 PM Reply   
Everyone knows the most expensive boat throws the best wake..
Old    James Ruberti (jamesruberti)      Join Date: Nov 2012       09-09-2013, 5:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorlan View Post
Everyone knows the most expensive boat throws the best wake..
The G23 is not the most expensive wakeboard boat
Old     (jwweathers)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-09-2013, 5:15 PM Reply   
I rode behind a 45' sailboat. Wake sucked....
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-09-2013, 5:18 PM Reply   
You guys are real literal over here. Don't take the sarcasm well
Old     (jwweathers)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-09-2013, 5:35 PM Reply   
Tried a barge after that, wake was even worse.

So much for your theory.
Old    R{west Side Ryder} W (rmotoxxx711)      Join Date: Oct 2008       09-09-2013, 5:46 PM Reply   
MB B52 is the best wake compared to the 210, 230 and tomcat boats. Oh and it drives like a dream and is well put together. 1800lbs plus 400 in the front and a 600 in the middle is what my buddy offered and it was unreal, and the boat is half the price of "other boats"

Oh and best part is for you wanting an unbiased opinion I have a 210 loaded to the gills
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-10-2013, 5:43 AM Reply   
Moto: any pics of that wake? Also how fast did you have to go to keep it from rolling over on it self? How did the boat get up with 2800lbs in it? Also what's the Hull difference between a b52 an a tomcat? Are they that much different?

Also just to clarify your SAN experience Is with the old style hull. Correct? Have you loaded and riden a newer 2008+ SAN loaded?

Last edited by Nordicron; 09-10-2013 at 5:50 AM.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       09-10-2013, 5:50 AM Reply   
the running surface on a F21 and a B52 21 are within 5% same ( from Mike Brendel himself ) and I've seen / ridden both and really can't tell a diff
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       09-10-2013, 6:50 AM Reply   
i have a 2013 B52 23ft. i have to go about 19 mph to get the wake to clean up for my son(8 yrs old). i need to get some pics of the wake with him riding it
Old    Ryan (ryanw209)      Join Date: Jan 2010       09-10-2013, 7:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordicron View Post
Moto: any pics of that wake? Also how fast did you have to go to keep it from rolling over on it self? How did the boat get up with 2800lbs in it? Also what's the Hull difference between a b52 an a tomcat? Are they that much different?

Also just to clarify your SAN experience Is with the old style hull. Correct? Have you loaded and riden a newer 2008+ SAN loaded?
If you were asking me Ron the 2008 is the newer SAN I believe(besides the 2014 they just came out with)

The B52 and Tomcat are the exact same from the driver back... Only difference is the nose so they have the same wake.
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-10-2013, 7:13 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanw209 View Post
If you were asking me Ron the 2008 is the newer SAN I believe(besides the 2014 they just came out with)

The B52 and Tomcat are the exact same from the driver back... Only difference is the nose so they have the same wake.
No my question was for moto. He said it was the best between the sans and a tomcat. So I was wondering what the diff was. He also said he had alot of experience with his own loaded SAN but his SAN is a older hulled model like 2002?

Anyway I'm also intrigued with the new F22 but the next boat I buy needs to have a friendly sub 19mph wake for my kids and a super huge sub 23mph wake for me! And I could care less about surfing!
Old    Rob G (wksk8r)      Join Date: Jun 2008       10-04-2013, 8:03 AM Reply   
Any verdict? I will be in the market soon as well. I have been behind both the pre '14 SAN, '10 TC F21, and '12 TWB. I currently have an older 210 and I will miss the wake, but I need more interior room with a growing family and a riding teen. My self, leaning toward a F21 although I have not been behind a 230 SAN ever. I think Nautique has gotten out of reach for my unless I find a clean used one.
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       10-04-2013, 11:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wksk8r View Post
Any verdict? I will be in the market soon as well. I have been behind both the pre '14 SAN, '10 TC F21, and '12 TWB. I currently have an older 210 and I will miss the wake, but I need more interior room with a growing family and a riding teen. My self, leaning toward a F21 although I have not been behind a 230 SAN ever. I think Nautique has gotten out of reach for my unless I find a clean used one.
well whats your opinion on the wakes of the TC and TWB? How were they loaded? Thanks the new TC 22 has my interest but I do really want a walkthru though! That and I'm not pleased they parted ways with PCM for indmar.
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-05-2013, 8:00 AM Reply   
I ride both boats a LOT and really like the wake on both boats. Grew up one of the biggest 210 fans since the wake is bar non one of the best. I was in the market for a 210 when I met a guy with a Tomcat. Riding the Tomcat and 210 for a couple of months I was sold for the money, space, look, and wake the Tomcat is worth it. Here's a pic of my Tomcat with stock ballast, 450 in the nose, and I think 5 or 6 adults...
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But lets not forget the look of the 210...
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Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       10-05-2013, 8:17 AM Reply   
How is the width? I remember the 210 wake as being a bit narrow depending on ballast and speed. Is the MB a bit wider so you don't have to worry so much about approach speed - meaning I like to go wake to wake so on a narrow wake it takes a lot of concentration to go straight up and straight down, whereas a boat with a bigger ramp to land on and a wider wake you can edge a little differently at...
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-05-2013, 9:03 AM Reply   
Delta ~ The Tomcat will be a bit wider but I ride the same speed and rope behind both boats without a problem. Can't go wrong with both boats but I really like the 1800 lbs in the floor of my Tomcat and plenty of storage for a lot of crap we don't need, LOL. You want straight wake go with the 210! Tomcat will give you a lot more space in the boat with a fantastic wake. Like I said I was shopping for a 210 and ordered a Tomcat...
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-05-2013, 9:10 AM Reply   
F22
http://www.mbboatowners.com/index.ph...14-f22-tomcat/
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-07-2013, 6:37 AM Reply   
Here is my 2013 23' TWB yesterday - 3 people in boat.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-07-2013, 6:39 AM Reply   
2013 23' TWB Yesterday - 3 People in boat - 80' @ 25 mph
Attached Images
   
Old    Tristan Dietrich (loudelectronics)      Join Date: Sep 2013       10-07-2013, 6:54 AM Reply   
DFTR. That is a nice wake.

We have a 24' Tomcat at the lake that we run into all the time. The wakeboard wake is really nice on it. Not sure about the smaller versions, but the 24' is legit. I have been impressed with it so far.
Old    Ryan (ryanw209)      Join Date: Jan 2010       10-07-2013, 7:25 AM Reply   
My buddy just got a new 21 TC and we were testing out the wake this week. This day we had a little too much weight in the back so the kick was pretty rough but we were getting boosted. The next day we took a little weight out overall and moved some from the back to the front. 75' line
Attached Images
 
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       10-07-2013, 10:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanw209 View Post
My buddy just got a new 21 TC and we were testing out the wake this week. This day we had a little too much weight in the back so the kick was pretty rough but we were getting boosted. The next day we took a little weight out overall and moved some from the back to the front. 75' line
That looks like a wake that I want to be friends with
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-07-2013, 11:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
DFTR. That is a nice wake.
Thanks! My wake sure has a good kick to it and throws ya for sure.

Ryan ~ That's what I'm talking about! Now that's a F21 Wake...

Here's a pic that will show you the overall shape of mine and close to the 210. I would say the 210 is a LOT more solid with a abrupt kick and mine a little more mellow but be ready to fly...

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Old    L W (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       10-07-2013, 12:02 PM Reply   
25, that's pretty fast! Wake looks good.
Old    Corey North (HighWater)      Join Date: Apr 2012       10-08-2013, 6:33 AM Reply   
80' and 25mph? Im guessing your bag of tricks is worthy of a ProTour stop next year? Or your measuring stick and GPS is way off!
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-08-2013, 9:07 AM Reply   
Keep in mind I weigh over 300LBS. The extra speed is needed to keep me higher on the water. If I go to slow it creates too much drag for me. I have checked the GPS on the boat with several iphone GPS speed trackers and they have been dead nuts. Most of the other guys ride 75'-80' and 24 mph.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-08-2013, 9:13 AM Reply   
I can see Corey needing to ride at 25mph. I weigh about 225lbs and usually ride around 23-24 mph. As Corey said, Any slower I slow right down as soon as I cut in to the wake. I can also slow my boat down by a couple mph just cutting out. as well. I'm sure its the same for him. Not everyone that rides weighs a buck fifty soaking wet and riding at 21mph.
Old    L W (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       10-08-2013, 12:23 PM Reply   
You weigh over 300 lbs and are spinning 3's riding at 80feet and 25MPH? Serious props man. That's awesome.
Old    Nikolas Dramountanis (Greeko)      Join Date: May 2013       10-08-2013, 1:27 PM Reply   
Holy Crap Jason...You weight 300 and still get airborne...heck...thats rad man!! Gotta love those mb's
Old     (will5150)      Join Date: Oct 2002       10-09-2013, 10:04 AM Reply   
Man I wish we had a dealer in Minnesota. That wake looks so good!
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-09-2013, 12:07 PM Reply   
Jason was sponsored by my local boardshop (Glass & Powder) back in the late 90's and early 2000's. I think I remember doing quite a few warranty claims for snapped boards. Go big or go home.
Old    Bob (Reez)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-09-2013, 12:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalow View Post
Keep in mind I weigh over 300LBS. The extra speed is needed to keep me higher on the water. If I go to slow it creates too much drag for me. I have checked the GPS on the boat with several iphone GPS speed trackers and they have been dead nuts. Most of the other guys ride 75'-80' and 24 mph.
Jason I got a buddy who is like 6'5 and 260 who is starting to jump and what not. We usually pull him around 22 with a shorter line. Would it help his progress is we sped up? Now that I think of it speed into the wake is his major problem IMO
Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       10-09-2013, 12:30 PM Reply   
All of these wake pictures are insanely good looking.
Old    Bryce (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       10-10-2013, 6:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by will5150 View Post
Man I wish we had a dealer in Minnesota. That wake looks so good!
Not enough lakes in MN. I really wanted an MB at one point too. I really liked the wake
Old     (will5150)      Join Date: Oct 2002       10-10-2013, 8:09 AM Reply   
Bryce, maybe you and I should open a dealership. I wonder frankly, if the issue is capacity- can MB make enough boats to distribute beyond their current reach. Also, how do these boats do in big water??
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-10-2013, 8:24 AM Reply   
Hey guys, yhea I am an old skooler - back to '93. Used to have over 10 inverts and a collection of spins back in the day, but injuries/family/etc.. have depleting by bag of tricks. I am still very passionate about riding and still coaching the next generation of rippers. I have certainly broke hundreds of boards over that time, so being big is not so good on equipment.

Bob - Have your buddy start on a big board - I suggest 145 HL Marek or 146 LF Trip. The shorter line is fine, but the speed is critical. Keep in mind there are no boards designed for guys our size. Think of many of the pros that are 5'7-150 lbs that are on 142's - How can a 145 fit our body type. We would need like a 157-165. So he will need a bit more speed to make the water "harder" to not slow him down by sinking too much. I have rode damn near ever "big" board over the last 20 years and can tell you there are literally 2-3 boards that will work for guys are size. If he is on something smaller, the sinking feeling will be much worse. So maybe try him at 75' at 23mph. If you are out on the west coast hit me up, I'll take you guys out.
Old    Bob (Reez)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-10-2013, 12:33 PM Reply   
He's been riding a cwb vibe 147 which is a monster . I appreciate the info!
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-10-2013, 3:06 PM Reply   
I am not at all knocking the vibe, but I found it to be too slow for my weight. It had a huge delay when I started my turn towards the wake. I believe it is maybe over-rockered for the heavier guys. I have a good buddy that is like 240 and rides CWB and he kills it. I just never had luck on them.
Old    Rob (geistwatersportscom)      Join Date: Dec 2006       10-30-2013, 1:47 PM Reply   
I have been lucky to be able to ride a ton of boats and weighted perfect for wakeboarding. If it were me and "Wakeboarding only" I would lean towards the MB over the 210. (If you surfed and wakeboarded I would go Nautique, but not applicable for your request) The MB is rated for 16 people and the back lockers are shorter so it has the same feel as a 23 foot boat. The 210 can get cramped fast with more than 5 guys. When I rode DFTR's wake I was 11 months out of ACL Surgery and I really liked the landing zones and the wake stayed cleaned. (rode 70 to 75ft 23.5mph) Rode the stock ballast with that 450lbs sac in the front and 2 to 4 people and it was money at 70-75ft. The 230 is the best overall boat in my opionion. I have an awesome Nautique Dealer nearby me, no MB action in Indianapolis. I just won't own a boat brand where the dealership isn't nearby. If you are still undecided DFTR spends almost all his time on those 2 boats.
Hope this helps

-Rob
Old    Chris Hernandez (CHern5972)      Join Date: Jul 2012       10-31-2013, 4:35 AM Reply   
Id opt for the MB... Surf and Wake... Best of both worlds.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       10-31-2013, 1:40 PM Reply   
If you are going to compare the MB to the Nautique 210 you can't compare a pre 2007 210 to a newer style MB. The 210 is completely different, lippy wake, narrow, and not so user friendly landings. In 2007 when they widened the hull on the 210 they were able to get more ramp out of the wake and in my opinion would be a better comparison to a newer MB. I had an 06 MB B52 (different hull than current I believe) and now have a 99 SAN 210. They are COMPLETELY different boats and wakes. I loved the MB, great price point boat and a lot of boat for the money. Never had a mechanical issue with the engine, not a single one (although Nautique uses PCM as well). My biggest complaint with the MB was how difficult it was to keep a clean consistent wake. The 2007 to current Nautique 210 seems to clean up a little easier in my experiences and I prefer the transitions a bit more over the MB. Of course I am comparing this to my 06 B52 so keep that in mind.
Old    Alain (ak4life)      Join Date: Nov 2003       11-05-2013, 3:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greeko View Post
Holy Crap Jason...You weight 300 and still get airborne...heck...thats rad man!! Gotta love those mb's
Late to the thread, but JB has a section in the original Delta Sessions. Been defying laws of physics since before it was cool! :-)
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-08-2013, 7:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by will5150 View Post
Bryce, maybe you and I should open a dealership. I wonder frankly, if the issue is capacity- can MB make enough boats to distribute beyond their current reach. Also, how do these boats do in big water??
I would gladly be your guys first customer.
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       11-08-2013, 7:52 AM Reply   
if you need more room go with the MB. It is hard to compare these two boats. 2006 and older wake is insane on a 210, but not really a surf boat IMHO. But a 2011 210 might go for around 60K, you can get in the B52 for less than 40K. Big difference. New F21s are mid 50s and new 210s are low to mid 80s. I love 2006 and prior 210s. But my wake and surf wave are incredible, and I have a ton of room in my boat. Would you like a deal on a B52? If I were rich I would have a new 210 or 230. I opted for the best bang for the buck boat. MB Sports.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/20...t-MB-102122465

ask for Ian
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       11-08-2013, 11:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknot View Post
if you need more room go with the MB. It is hard to compare these two boats. 2006 and older wake is insane on a 210, but not really a surf boat IMHO. But a 2011 210 might go for around 60K, you can get in the B52 for less than 40K. Big difference. New F21s are mid 50s and new 210s are low to mid 80s. I love 2006 and prior 210s. But my wake and surf wave are incredible, and I have a ton of room in my boat. Would you like a deal on a B52? If I were rich I would have a new 210 or 230. I opted for the best bang for the buck boat. MB Sports.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/20...t-MB-102122465

ask for Ian
Wow holy crap thats a good deal. Wish I loved the colors and swooshes.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-08-2013, 11:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tampawake View Post
Wow holy crap thats a good deal. Wish I loved the colors and swooshes.
even if you price in a wrap it's a pretty good deal.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       11-08-2013, 12:17 PM Reply   
I sold Rathy's old 2011 F21 Tomcat (130hrs) clean with basically the same scheme this past summer for 44 and had 2 in line if it fell through, it did have the 6.0 409 and it was early summer, so it's close and I would not expect this one to last long

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