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Old     (CarZin)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-11-2013, 7:30 AM Reply   
http://www.centurionboats.com/news/n...ts-system.html

from previous announcements, RAM fill is going to allow all of the 4500+ pounds of ballast in a 244 to fill in about 30 seconds. Same with draining.

They also are putting on a CATs system, which is essentially a forward adjustable rudder on the boat.

Looks promising.

They also are talking about an 'asymetrical wave plate'. Just looks like my wing plate, with one side hacked off. Not really digging that. They've gone from a simple wake plate, to a wing plate, to now 3/4 wing plate. Not real sure about this one.
Old    Trevor Miller (tmill)      Join Date: May 2011       06-11-2013, 7:37 AM Reply   
the 3/4 wing plate will be great. the old plate knocked down the wave on the regular side too much, many of the riders at worlds last year had a hard time getting the wake steep enough. I am sure that this is the redesigned version to give the wake a more symetrical shape from side to side without compromising wake shape.
Old    A.J. West (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       06-11-2013, 7:40 AM Reply   
So is the wake shape going to be equal on both sides finally on an Enzo? It's kinda disappointing that it only made a "world class" wake on one side (either regular or special order righ hand rotation for goofy)
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       06-11-2013, 8:06 AM Reply   
Interesting upgrades! All of these mfr's are stepping up the innovation and I love it!
Old     (CarZin)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-11-2013, 8:07 AM Reply   
Trevor, I don't use any wake plate on the goofy side (I have right hand drive) and my wave is beautiful. We do use it on the port side to clean the wave up. The wave on the port side is BEAUTIFUL as well, but it requires a lot more weight (and counter weight). I think this is the problem with most people and an Enzo setup. They get the standard left drive transmission, and it makes the port wave beautiful. But they have less real estate for extra weight on the goofy side, and it makes cleaning it up difficult. With our right hand drive, you don't have a real estate issue for extra weight on the port side of the boat. It was frustrating, however, until we figured out the correct weighting. I ride switch almost as well as goofy, and I was absolutely loving the port wave on our right hand boat when we finally dialed in the weight.

But the wake plate is a simple change. If it makes a big difference, I'll just buy the new wake plate and unbolt mine.
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       06-11-2013, 11:23 AM Reply   
I know the 244 is "flagship". any word of these features on the smaller boats? and really 4500 lbs in 30 secs? crazy...
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       06-11-2013, 12:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by newwhit View Post
and really 4500 lbs in 30 secs? crazy...
That's 500+ gallons!
Old     (CarZin)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-11-2013, 12:07 PM Reply   
newwhit, I can almost promise you the exact same features are going to be on all the other ENZO models. We already know that the ram fill will be on the new FX-44 from a previous annoucement. Would be VERY surprised to not see see all these features it across the entire Enzo line. They obviously are taking a single prototype boat and demonstrating it.

There will be some difference in available ballast due to length of the boat. I think the Enzo 244 has around 4600 pounds, and the 21 Enzo is somewhere around 3600. My 23 is 4300.

The big negative to the RAMFill, however, will likely be very little storage on the boat. The enzo already has pretty bad storage when you consider almost all the lockers are filled with ballast. You have to take the good with the bad. But at least with soft bags, I can put stuff in the side we aren't surfing. With hard tanks, you don't have that option, and the Enzo isn't deep like the G23 to provide storage in other areas.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-11-2013, 1:55 PM Reply   
I don't get the ballast thing. I under stand how the ramfill works but weren't enzo's only getting 500 pounds on each side before of under the floor ballast? How are they getting that up to 4600 pounds? Is the ramfill just for the under the floor ballast? Did they raise the floor on the outside of the stringers to accomodate bigger tanks? is there somehow under the floor ballast plus above the floor hard tank ballast that is all filled with the ramfill system?

If I were centurion I would of maybe raised the floor up outside the stringers enough to get 1200 pounds or so on each side then just install some sort of plug and play option with pumps and bags for people that actually want more.

I would almost bet less than 25% of potential buyers care about having anymore than 500 pounds on each side of the boat. If they are raising the floor up enough to fit 2300 pounds per side is there even going to be storage in the vdrive compartments and under the seats?
Old    Rusty Yaple (nailem)      Join Date: Apr 2011       06-11-2013, 3:34 PM Reply   
I just added a wing plate to my 05 enzo but have not gotten a chance to try it yet. I did not go as big as others have. I put a wing on both sides. Are you saying its going to knock the wave down on the port side? I only surf port so should I take the port side of the wing off or take the starboard side off?
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Old     (CarZin)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-11-2013, 3:34 PM Reply   
Brett, the details are not yet out, but it is likely they converted all the soft storage areas that double as storage when not in use to hard tanks.

I believe RAMFill will be an option. For people that don't need the storage, choose RAMFill. Otherwise, choose the old method of the bags.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-11-2013, 5:52 PM Reply   
I put a homemade CATS on my 2004 Lightning back in 2006. That mod should provide control similar to the malibu and CC systems.
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-11-2013, 7:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshow View Post
I put a homemade CATS on my 2004 Lightning back in 2006. That mod should provide control similar to the malibu and CC systems.
Details please
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-11-2013, 8:10 PM Reply   
The only way I could get a decent goofy wake on the Lightning. With my home brew system my goofy Lightning wake was much better than my enzo goofy wake.


Not sure how to search older WW posts. Look for Surf Switch in the wake surf forum in 2006.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-12-2013, 8:28 PM Reply   
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/m...tml?1150980182

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/m...tml?1150566599
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-13-2013, 1:32 AM Reply   
That RAM system is pretty cool, if the wake is dialed with that weight, then applause, that is very cool.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-13-2013, 9:22 AM Reply   
and now the million dollar question is: Show is the CATS system the same thing you designed and if you didn't patent the whole according to the threads from 2006 - are you now willing to share?

The issues described are so similar to what I'm experiencing that it wouldn't take a lot of convincing to drill a hole in the boat and try this out (or to remove one of my existing fins and do so ... except that I would need some guidance on parts. The biggest issue is: Where do you put this rudder exactly and how much engineering/calculation knowledge is involved?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-13-2013, 3:14 PM Reply   
What I did was a prototype, not something you'd leave on your boat every day. I made a pair of custom tracking fins. Each fin was configurable at a fixed +10, +5, -5, or -10 Degrees. I removed the old tracking fins and replaced them with the custom fins. I had to remove the boat from the water to change the fins. Two fins set to 10 degrees is way-way too much correction. One fin at 5 degrees was I think I little too much as well too.

These fixed tracking fins made driving the boat really interesting. Backing up the boat gained a whole new level of difficult. But, with an articulated tracking fin coupled with steering wheel position and reverse throttle knowledge a clever engineer could provide the next beneficial feature of this technology, reverse steering. I don’t think Centurion has thought about that yet.

My boss wouldn’t let me pursue my hobby patent ideas. Basically I had the idea for the Centurion system, The Malibu trim tab system, and the CC trim tab system at the end of 2006 but couldn’t do anything with the ideas. All three of these systems provide the same thing, yaw control.

All of the old style ballast systems gave you pitch and roll. No one was working on yaw. The Sanger and Master Craft surfing trim tab systems provide desired list but they also produce yaw in the wrong direction. Now CC, Malibu, and Centurion are providing yaw control which in my estimate is critical for wakesurf wake control. Centurion also nicely demonstrates how useful yaw control is for wakeboarding as well.

So the last trim tab correction method that I haven’t seen anyone do yet is combine a Sanger/Master Craft trim tab with yaw control. Let’s see how tries that first.

One other thing that I tried, but on my Enzo, not the Lightning, was putting 90 degree elbows on the Side Swipe exhaust. I was trying to get the noise level down to a sane level. The elbows didn’t do much for noise abatement but it showed that the drag they produced affected the wake in a good way. During my test I only put the elbow on one side. What I found was that the additional drag caused by the elbow improved the shape of the goofy wake. So, if you have an Enzo with Side Swipe it would be easy to add a little drag gadget on the low side (the weighted side) of the boat by bolting the gadget on the Side Swipe mounts. You could make the little gadget collapsible or make the working bit removable so it doesn’t affect performance when not desired. So there’s another patentable idea.

The first wake gadget that I made was a tower mounted rack to hold weights. The idea was that the weight was more effective the further outboard it was mounted. So, 80 pounds one foot off of the center line provides 80 foot-pounds of list producing torque. The same 80 pounds on the town, four feet off the centerline produced 320 foot-pounds of torque. Getting huge list on my Lightning was key to making a good surf wake. On the Enzo it was easy to get a good regular surf side wake, I didn’t need the weight racks.

That’s about six ideas in all that I had for wakesurfing wake enhancement. All I think are winners.

My Enzo was the best and coolest boat I ever had. Problem is that I just don’t see myself owning another boat, if I were looking at a surf boat I’d really want to look one of these new Centurions with these surf options – too cool.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-13-2013, 3:38 PM Reply   
after I read the initial article and looked at the video I went out to my boat and started to ponder I have an Epic 23V and I assume you've read/heard the stories that the port wake is usually just more difficult to clean up - in my case earlier this week I basically loaded 500lbs on that side w/o anything else to get a clean wake on both ... so the problem may be related that I have the 8.1l engine which produces more torque - hence boat leaning starboard as soon as I increase rpm above idle.

Now because I have 3 tracking fins and I know there's a way to those removed - I obviously wonder if that would be the next thing after sliced bread. To be honest - your reply contains a lot more info (half of which I still have to google to understand .. ) than I anticipated - so thanks a lot. Looking at the fin Centurion is using it's obviously custom made but shouldn't be that big of a deal if I ask a local prop shop to make me something similiar including the stainless shaft - the rest can be bought of the shelf. I also think that I have enough room in front of the fuel tank (Epic has a compartment/hatch there which in older boats was supposed to be a built in cooler but no longer is), so perfect access and coincidentally that is also the lowest point of the boat when it's on the trailer - in the water the center of gravity is further back somewhere between tranny and engine.

That's why I asked where you actually placed the fin - I understand that my options are obviously limited based on the V-drive setup.

The back of my transom is already full with stuff as you can see from the 2 pictures below but I'll get another one tonight so you can see where the fins are and what room I have to work with ... so some of your other suggestions won't work. The 'surf' trim tabs are unfortunately not producing the result Epic is advertising ... surf gate would be better ...
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Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-13-2013, 4:32 PM Reply   
If your tracking fins are like mine were then you need to put something back in place our your boat will sink!

How are your boat hull and muffin top attached? It might be difficult to install an articulating fin post production.

As they are now your trim tabs are doing anything for you, right? Ditch them or move then to the side like Malibu does. You can have a good glass company cover over the old trim tab mounting holes like they were never there.

One problem that I had with my Enzo was that it represented too large of an investment for me to risk messing up. A developmental idea that I never followed through with was mounting a large adapter plate covering most of the transom of my boat, a second transom if you will. If you could attach an adapter plate on the back of your boat and then mount your swim to the adapter and everything else to is. Move te trim tabs to the sides like Malibu/CC does. If you don’t like the results you can go back to the way it was with no harm to your boat (only harm to your wallet).

Then if you want to try something else then drill new holes in the adapter and bolt something else on. If you finally get to where you want then make the mods on your boat permanent. So, there’s a seventh patentable idea, a developmental removable transom.

I do have a few other ideas; don’t know if I want to unload the whole salvo.

How much are you in love with your current boat? If you really like surfing, if it’s your main thing, maybe it’s not the right boat for you. Suppose you make $2,000 in mods and improve the wake but not to your satisfaction? There are some really, really good surf boats out there, maybe a trade gets you where you want to be?

Note I’m not affiliated with any boat company or dealer.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-14-2013, 5:04 AM Reply   
guess I didn't explain myself properly - the intention was to replace one of the tracking fins with one which can swivel ... anyway

I like to do both - boarding and surfing - so improving the boat would be nice - wifey isn't too eager to see me getting a new boat every year - so I guess I'll have to keep this one for another year. And boats are not an investment - there are toys and tinkering with them is part of it

I was thinking about moving the surf tabs - it would really be that big of a deal to get new tabs which fit on the side as everything else is in place - so I have played with that thought (likely can't use the old tabs as they might be too wide and the outer side is cut in so you can still put the straps on when trailering.

But I get the fact that drilling a new hole into the bottom to attach the fin is a bigger undertaking - I checked last night and realized that the space I have to work with in that compartment between fuel tank and front ballast tank is unfortunately not as much as I thought - the 4" hose from the fast fill system is right there - so the rudder arm would eventually be in the way or damage the hose. The muffin top is presumably glued to the bottom - I don't think there's much I can do about that which limits the position of the fin to either that area or not at all and replacing an existing one is likely to be that particular area and I would assume that the only one worth to replace would likely be the one furthest back.
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Old     (CarZin)      Join Date: Feb 2011       06-14-2013, 7:01 AM Reply   
Centurion should be pretty happy right now. Their announcement of these features has generated probably the most talk I've seen about Centurion on wakeworld, and the CATS feature looks like it is something everyone has to have now
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-14-2013, 7:38 PM Reply   
I got that you were considering making your own articulated trim tab. My reply had more to do with alternatives that I think should do the same thing but are more feasible for aftermarket application.

I think it’s going to be easier for you to work at the transom then at the tracking fin.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-14-2013, 7:52 PM Reply   
The side transom of that Epic looks like a perfect setup for pulling those surf tabs off, making a new plate and mounting them on the vertical plane. At that point you would have the wakeplate in the center to adjust length of pocket and the side one's to change the yaw or whatever it is called that makes surfgate and nss work.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-15-2013, 7:18 PM Reply   
Mounting them on the vertical plane?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-15-2013, 9:58 PM Reply   
I don't know if that is the correct term but instead of on the hull bottom mount them on the hull side like surfgate. After I posted that I see the OP and you even mentioned that. Surf tabs(mounted off the bottom running surface of each side) seem worthless if the goal is to make a better surf wake.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-16-2013, 5:43 AM Reply   
Got it. I'd be interested to see horizontal and vertical surf tabs mounted on a boat and operated at the same time. The reason why horizontal ones don't work is because they create yaw in the wrong direction. If you had H and V tabs then you could offset the yaw (drag) from the H tab from one side with counter yaw (drag) on the other side. That would be a complicated set up of trim tabs, it would be important to really think through placement or think out of the box.

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