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Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-04-2014, 10:18 AM Reply   
So, I know that wakesurfing has been around since the 50's with people surfing outboards on actual surfboards.

But I'm trying to remember when wakesurfing as we know it, behind the modern day v-drive wakeboards came onto the scene.

I believe that I first tried wakesurfing in 2003. It was the year that they released the MB sports B52 V3 with about 2k of factory ballast. Back then, no one had even heard of this and the only reason I found out about it is because I had the local boat dealer give me a demo of a new boat. (yeah, it was a joyride as I couldn't afford to throw down and actually buy the boat).

I did it a few times afterwards in 2007 and 2009. But I'm pretty sure my first time was back around 2003.

What do you all remember about the start of Wakesurfing as we know it?
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       11-04-2014, 10:34 AM Reply   


There ya go
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-04-2014, 10:50 AM Reply   
Skip 1:40... Always been something wakeboarders did in addition to riding.

Scott Byerly - High Wake Drifters - (1994-1995) from Sidewayz Films on Vimeo.

Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-04-2014, 10:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
Skip 1:40... Always been something wakeboarders did in addition to riding.

Scott Byerly - High Wake Drifters - (1994-1995) from Sidewayz Films on Vimeo.

Wow. that video is old school! I started wakeboarding in '96. I guess I had no idea that it'd been around the whole time.
Old    Charlie Zulu (Pad1Tai)      Join Date: Jan 2013       11-04-2014, 11:21 AM Reply   
How about 50's....


Old    Steven (scuba_steve)      Join Date: Oct 2013       11-04-2014, 11:40 AM Reply   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBb...Z__4pbPP7H00gg

Hobie Super Surfer Skateboard team stop off at Cypress Gardens and go surfing behind a boat. 1965
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-04-2014, 11:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pad1Tai View Post
How about 50's....



LOL, how about the first sentence of the thread where I said exactly that.
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-04-2014, 12:09 PM Reply   
I'm a wakeboarder, but I'll throw this out there. Why is there skim and surf style? If the skim guys are popping airs and the surf guys are doing pop-shuvs what is the real difference? Seems like there could easily be a product to cover all of the bases. Modern Wakesurfing should be a blend of both styles IMO.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-04-2014, 12:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
I'm a wakeboarder, but I'll throw this out there. Why is there skim and surf style? If the skim guys are popping airs and the surf guys are doing pop-shuvs what is the real difference? Seems like there could easily be a product to cover all of the bases. Modern Wakesurfing should be a blend of both styles IMO.
For the same reason there's snowboarders that fit into different specialties/disciplines. I tend to be someone that loves big mountain snowboarding, where I'm dropping steep double black diamond slopes. But then again, I often enjoy tree riding. Sometimes I'll be in the mood for jumps and tricks and take a run through the snowboard park. Other times, my son will even drag me into the halfpipe. It's all snowboarding, but different disiplines. And they make different boards that do better for the different disciplines.

The exact same applies to wakeboarding. Boat wakeboarding is quite different than cable. And of course they make different boards that do better for each one. Hell, there's another thread I posted where I inquired about slalom wakeboarding and found out that they've actually run competitions on that!

I agree that there's overlap among all the different styles, and that makes it harder to segment. I have to imagine that it would be hard to judge and prioritize what's worth more points because different things are harder/easier depending on what kind of board you're on. If you judge on magnitude of air, the surf style is likely to dominate. In you judge on spins, the skim would likely dominate. of course you can do airs and spins on either. But the relative difficulty changes.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-04-2014, 1:11 PM Reply   
But when it comes to competition, snowboarding is either racing, or tricks. Wakeboarding is tricks, whether it be cable or boat. There seems to be little to no reason for there to be a "surf" style, that's like riding backcountry or trees, nothing to judge.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-04-2014, 1:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
But when it comes to competition, snowboarding is either racing, or tricks. Wakeboarding is tricks, whether it be cable or boat. There seems to be little to no reason for there to be a "surf" style, that's like riding backcountry or trees, nothing to judge.
Are you forgetting about extreme ski/snowboard competitions? Maybe surf style is more analogous to big mountain riding?
In the ski world, they have Freestyle moguls, where you race AND do tricks... Lots of weird disciplines out there.

What's wrong with a little segmentation? There's lots of sports where you can either race or do tricks on various pieces of gear and they keep things separate. They don't have BMX riders compete doing tricks against mountain bike riders (typically).

And they're not going to have a competition where riders can opt to take a cable run or a boat run and are scored the same...

I get the point that there's overlap and the lines are blurring and it might get to the point where the segmentation doesn't make sense.

Of course we're not always going to find a perfect analogy. But I try to draw comparisons where I can.
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       11-04-2014, 1:29 PM Reply   
Real surf style isn't about shuvs. People attempt shuvs because they can be difficult to learn and complete, especially from riders with no skim experience or perspective. There is wake surfing and wake skimming. They are completely different activities. Some riders are mixing them and pushing for more equally weighted boards that spin on plane and calling it surf style or a surf style shuv.... the truth is it is a shuv, whether on a 'surf style' board or a skim board. However, ultimately there are two different distinct styles of riding. There are overlaps, overlaps occur in all sports.
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       11-04-2014, 1:35 PM Reply   
As to the original thread, the 'history of' video gives some insight, but the origins modern wake surfing goes back to the 80s, it all but died as wakeboarding evolved. The birth of wakeboarding went through a few non-congruent growth centers, some focused on basically surfboards, some focused on skurfers, and some focused on towable windsurfers. The towable windsurfers died, the wake surfboard and skurfers evolved to the modern day wakeboard.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-04-2014, 1:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson View Post
Are you forgetting about extreme ski/snowboard competitions? Maybe surf style is more analogous to big mountain riding?
In the ski world, they have Freestyle moguls, where you race AND do tricks... Lots of weird disciplines out there.

What's wrong with a little segmentation? There's lots of sports where you can either race or do tricks on various pieces of gear and they keep things separate. They don't have BMX riders compete doing tricks against mountain bike riders (typically).

And they're not going to have a competition where riders can opt to take a cable run or a boat run and are scored the same...

I get the point that there's overlap and the lines are blurring and it might get to the point where the segmentation doesn't make sense.

Of course we're not always going to find a perfect analogy. But I try to draw comparisons where I can.
But the surface of which it is being done is completely different other than being on snow. They are multi-discipline in skiing, they can race, mogul, distance jump, freestyle, halfpipe, etc. Big mountain comps are about picking a line, the toughest, smoothest one, and they incorporate tricks on most of those now, too. The wave never changes except for slight variation in size and shape. That is not a different discipline. Surfing would be a better analogy, but they're "surf style" is actually catching huge waves and riding them, judged on execution and difficulty, because it is hard. I guess the real questions is, What is there to judge in wakesurf "surfing"?

Last edited by behindtheboat; 11-04-2014 at 1:46 PM.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-04-2014, 1:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
But the surface of which it is being done is completely different other than being on snow. They are multi-discipline in skiing, they can race, mogul, distance jump, freestyle, halfpipe, etc. Big mountain comps are about picking a line, the toughest, smoothest one, and they incorporate tricks on most of those now, too. The wave never changes except for slight variation in size and shape. That is not a different discipline. Surfing would be a better analogy, but they're "surf style" is actually catching huge waves and riding them, judged on execution and difficulty, because it is hard. I guess the real questions is, What is there to judge in wakesurf "surfing"?
Okay, maybe it's the same concept as to why skiers compete separately from snowboarders in halfpipe or in the park. Exact same surface... Again, not a perfect analogy because it's one stick vs. two. But two different snowriding disiplines that often run on the same course. It's pretty easy to argue that skiing and snowboarding are different enough to have them compete separately. I would imagine at some point, surf and skim were different enough to have them compete separately.

Maybe someday they'll be together and we'll likewise have skiers and snowboarders competing against each other in park and pipe.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-04-2014, 1:55 PM Reply   
Or maybe wakesurfers will realize its the same thing, they're just giving out more trophies.
Old    Trayson Harmon (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       11-04-2014, 1:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
Or maybe wakesurfers will realize its the same thing, they're just giving out more trophies.
LOL. maybe so. They're still trying to develop the sport from a competitive standpoint, so I'm sure they'll try whatever they can to boost participation/involvement/interest.

Maybe they'll have a "how many beers can you chug while surfing" division.




Are you Surf, Skim, or Beer?
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-04-2014, 2:02 PM Reply   
Wow, I sparked a discussion. Wakeboarding used to have slolam and tricks.

I just imagine there is a crossover shape and as that is refined the disciplines would combine. As it becomes "modern" it should shrug off the surf/skim labels. Kinda become its own thing.
Old    Surf Addict (Desi) (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       11-04-2014, 2:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson View Post
LOL. maybe so. They're still trying to develop the sport from a competitive standpoint, so I'm sure they'll try whatever they can to boost participation/involvement/interest.

Maybe they'll have a "how many beers can you chug while surfing" division.




Are you Surf, Skim, or Beer?
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED! Toss back as many as I can catch and toss back before I can't stand from either jelly leg or drunken leg lol
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-04-2014, 3:02 PM Reply   
As far as judging, I think that if you have more then one fin and its more then 3' tall then you will be classified as Surf, and if you ride one fin or none and the fin is smaller then 3' it will be considered a skim. Nick would know for sure......
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       11-04-2014, 3:11 PM Reply   
I never understood splitting skim and surf either. It's splitting hairs really. So what if the style is slightly different? That's the challenge. Apply your own style and judge the difficulty of the tricks relative to the rest of the competition.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-04-2014, 3:51 PM Reply   
I could agree with the above statement ^^^^^
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-04-2014, 4:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
I guess the real questions is, What is there to judge in wakesurf "surfing"?
I think you should start a new thread for that one...that's a BIG can of worms!
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       11-04-2014, 4:54 PM Reply   
Ultimately, surf style is more similar to surfing in the ocean. You do not see shuvs in the ocean, not really.

Skim style shares more in common with street skating then surfing. Skim style is dominated by the board being pushed, kicked and flipped by the rider.

Surf style the rider and board are one, it is dominated by maneuvers in which the rider and board are in unison.

Yes, there are a lot of riders that are attempting to merging the two styles; in a way form their own style of riding. Only time will tell if the 'merged-style' is acceptable.

It is not about the board in a true sense, but the board dictates style to an extent. Skim boards are highly limited in their aerial maneuvers, just like your average surf-style board will not rotate on plane under the rider. Because of weight/mass distribution your average surf style board will get wonky and off axis. However, if a rider can pull off an off-axis maneuver it looks pretty cool. Note how I say 'under the rider'. This is a key difference.

What we will see and are seeing are boards that mimic the look of a surfboard but are really just skims boards with bigger fins, not unlike what we saw dominating many manufactures line ups 8-10 years ago.

Maneuvers and progression, not the same as difficulty and tricks.... tricks are for kids and prostitutes.

No but seriously, the trick concept is one of the aspects that has lead to the slow death of competitive wakeboarding, and many other sports. A trick is a trick, and needs a clear definition, characterization and ranking/scoring amongst other tricks. There will never be agreement much less consensus on these terms.

Yes, can o can o can o can of worms... just opinions, maybe experienced and educated opinions, but merely opinions.

Nick
Old    JF (inland_surfer)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-06-2014, 8:21 PM Reply   
Flash back to 2002 with Inland Surfer - This cracks me up all the old footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk1ln8P07Cc

Cheers. Inland Surfer

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