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Old                01-12-2004, 4:13 PM Reply   
So, after at least 150 failed attempts at a backroll, I finally got it down and nail them consistenlty.

I have no desire to go through that much pain for the 360 so I am enlisting the help of fellow wakeboarders.

On to the next trick - 360's. Was trying them this last weekend and they really dont seem that hard - wait until in the air, pull the handle to hip with both hands, look over shoulder, spot landing, land, look cool to everybody in the boat, have hot chicks hanging all over you for the rest of the day. Simple...right?

The good part is that I have most of it down. Couple problems though:
1. I missed the handle pass every time. Its getting ripped out of my hand (I think - not positive - I just know that I dont have it when I land)
2. I am typically over-rotating (450 - halfway between a 3 and a 5 haha)but not always.

Does anybody have any advice as to what to do to control the rotation better and get the handle pass. I kind of feel like I was spazzing and trying to get around too fast. I was thinking that I just need to slow the whole thing down (not pull the handle to my hip so hard) but will that work????
Old     (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-12-2004, 4:54 PM Reply   
yes, i would think you're trying to hard. fs spins, although intially easier, do require a bs finish. can you do 180s consistently? can you do ollie bs180s? those help with being able to do the last part of the threes, and the handle-passing.

to me, pulling the handle to your hip and spining too hard are not the same thing. if the handle is being ripped from your hands, that's usually a sign of not advancing on the rope enough (i.e., not bringing the handle in enough), so that you get caught with your hand behind you trying to hold on.

anyways, yes, the 3 is easier than you think it is in terms of spining energy. the first thing darin shapiro told me at camp was "whoa dude, ease up. it's only a 3."

some possible consideration points:

1) easier cut - you take a pretty good cut at your backroll. you don't need a big cut. the harder you cut and the bigger you go - the harder the handle-pass is (which is why it's considered so difficult to do big huge 5s into the flats). keep the energy light and easy.

2) wait to spin. folks can do ollie 3s. that means you don't need a lot of time to make the spin. i've made 3s when i was sure i was going to crash because i was turning so slowly - but i stayed with it and landed no problem. we tend to think we have to rush around. make sure you're starting the spin after you've taken off the wake. for hs 3s you don't have to initiate the spin any earlier.

3) practice the handle-pass on dry land, perhaps with your rope tied off to a door or something. when you, make sure to practice actually pulling the handle in and advancing your body.

i practiced 3s on a tramp, but without really advancing on the rope (since there's no pull from a boat you don't have to). it didn't help me. i went back to the tramp and practiced 3s pulling myself forward, and then went out the next time and landed my first one.

the handle-pass isn't a natural thing. practice gettting the handle to the middle of your back and really knowing that your other hand has it before you let go.

probably you're just taking it too big to start. you're a big guy and you pull hard on your cuts. you probably just need to take it a bit easier, which will make getting the handle simpler.

hope at least some of that helps. :-)
Old                01-12-2004, 8:04 PM Reply   
Chris - thanks for taking the time to write so much - I remember you giving me a lot of advice when I was learning the back role when I first came to wake world. Hopefully one of these days there will be a distressed boat owner that needs two mooches so he can ride.

I can do 180's pretty easily - as long as they are not wake to wake for some reason. Can do inside out, outside in, and ollie 180 anywhere but when I go wake to wake I tend to slide out or stuff the nose. I'm close - I'll get it. Steve Cowen makes fun of me b/c I can do a backroll but I cant do w2w 180's haha. All in good fun though.

I have never tried BS 180's and now that I think of it that is probably the natural progression BEFORE the 360's but hey, I never said that I was simple (read personal quote).

I am not exactly sure about what you mean by advancing on the rope - I think it means pull to move your whole body closer to the boat to decrease the pull onthe handle when you are passing it - if I'm right let me know.

I think Darin would probably say the same thing to me - I only tried 3 or 4 of them and each time I remember saying "damn" when the boat passed in and then out of my vision and I was still in the air. The first attempt I actually landed the 5 and coasted into the flats (without the handle so it doesnt count). The rest were 450's haha.

Next weekend I am riding again and I will concentrate on going slower and taking my time - I'm trying to go wake to wake with them so, according to you, I have time. I hope it works out. I'll get some video of it too and post it for further analysis.

I do have another question however, if I am not pulling so hard to initiate my turn, how do I advance on the rope?
Old     (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-12-2004, 8:30 PM Reply   
well you ride with sean jackson and so do i - so no doubt sometime we'll meet up. in fact, i look a lot more like him now that i shaved my head!

but back to the matter at hand...

by advancing on the rope, yes i just mean pulling the handle towards you. what you're literally doing is advancing on the boat, as you're pulling yourself closer to the boat to allow some slack in the rope while you turn.

as for pulling hard, you shouldn't need to pull too hard on the rope, if you're waiting to start your spin, because once you're in the air and traveling it's not that difficult to move your body thru the air. know what i mean? if you can pull the handle in and get some slack on it while you're riding along on the water - with all the resistance that implies, then you should easily be able to advance yourself in the air.

when you pull the rope in on a 3, it's actually a misnomer. you're not pulling the rope in, you're pulling your body to the handle. and usually that results in you temporarily going faster than the boat, so you get a little slack in the rope - which makes the handle pass easier.
Old                01-28-2004, 1:52 PM Reply   
Ok Chris,

Just cant figure this one out. Every time I threw the trick I was getting pulled over the front. Just a little bit - but it doesnt take much to stuff the nose.

I really concentrated on advancing on the boat but that always made me do an endover. I know that you are going to say that I am pulling too high - and I probably am.

I was still losing the handle and I got frustrated enough to say, "I'm not letting go with my right hand until my left hand has the handle - EVEN IF I LAND WRAPPED!!!" Well.... that didnt work out very well for the home team if you know what I mean. Of course, I hit that one a little bigger and had a slower rotation, I remember spinning and seeing the boat on the other side then...unexpicably....watched to boat go away as the rope UNWOUND me back the other way. The people in the boat thought it was a great trick! haha. Of course I didnt land it. At least I had the common sense to let go before my arm got pulled over the back of my head.

Visualizing it - it doesnt seem very hard - neither did the back roll and that took 200+ painful crashes before I got it. I've determined that I'd prefer to crash less times for this trick. Maybe not as much pain either.

We need to hit up somebody and get on the same boat one day.

Old                01-31-2004, 12:28 PM Reply   
Old     (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-31-2004, 1:40 PM Reply   
hey jim, sorry for not responding sooner - man time flies!

have you had a chance to try these again? lol at your being unwound! i haven't seen that before.

when you say you concentrated on advancing towards the boat and ended up doing an endover, what do you mean? you fell out of the trick sideways?

sounds like you're just having trouble with that handle-pass. did sean get video? we'll definitely ahve to ride together soon. im almost healed, just another week to go i think.
Old     (canaday)      Join Date: Dec 2002       02-02-2004, 7:03 AM Reply   

That's funny. I'm with Chris on that I've never seen that before. Sorry for the advice, but that always works for me. I guess everyone's different.
Old                02-02-2004, 7:15 AM Reply   
Believe me, I was the most surprised of any of us when I was watching the boat move back out of my vision. The advice was good, I just didnít execute very well Ė and holding on to the handle no matter what was my idea alone Ė still not sure if it was a bad idea, it just didnít work that time.

What I meant by doing an end-over was that my upper torso was getting pulled toward the boat while my lower half was not. I was still doing the spin but I was landing on my head. Haha.
Old     (canaday)      Join Date: Dec 2002       02-02-2004, 7:43 AM Reply   
Yeah, I do that consistently on 5s. Usually because I'm leaning into the spin and turning with my shoulders. Because you are going heelside, you are probably turning too early and too much with your shoulders, which is why I'd get off-axis. Try passing the handle lower too.
Old     (tantrum999)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-02-2004, 2:49 PM Reply   
i am very consistant on my 3's but never spot the landing as i pull in my arm leads the way. you could be turning way too soon or cutting to hard. take the trick straight up and not out.

another good way to start if your missing the handle then you can try one on a corner this will make the pass easier and then you can take it in a straight line. worth a try?

hope this helps

(hello chris happy new year!)

(Message edited by tantrum999 on February 02, 2004)
Old     (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-02-2004, 3:20 PM Reply   
hey happy new year andrew. good to hear from ya again!

just re-read your earlier posts jim. and realized you mentioned nosing in at the end. like sean said, that can result from starting too early and not being upright when you start spining.

but we really need to get some video to do analysis on. much easier when you can see what the person is doing. sean jackson is thinking about maybe going out thursday (we couldn't go today as everyone bailed). perhaps you could come out then?
Old                02-03-2004, 2:05 PM Reply   
with the deployment looming, I am just way too busy to take a week day off right now. Once everybody is gone (not too much longer) I hope things will calm down so I can take some time off - I need a vacation!!!!!! Would love to spend it wakeboarding.


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